changing people's perseptions

I had a chance to maybe influence a co workers perseption today. somehow it got brought up at a morning meeting that a co workers teenaged nephew was caught crossdressing , and a few workers were condemning it a bit (what is this world coming to etc.) I felt a steering urge to come forth and say something along the lines of , "well you all have been working with and getting along with a cross dresser this whole time do you still want to talk bad about an adolescent that is simply exploring his feminine side, not hurting anybody ) but I choked under the pressure. I wanted to maybe change some people's minds or get them to possibly question (huh? maybe people who do this aren't so strange after all) I know it has risks but I've been working at this warehouse for 4 years now and am respected by many workers. anyone have a situation like this?

I have a friend who makes fake puking noises whenever he sees a drag queen or crossdresser on TV. It's always irritated me, and I've always wanted to say something, but there is no way of knowing how people will react.

Part of me wonders if he's doing it just to appear macho in front of others, rather than actually being disgusted by it. I usually give him the "What are you doing?" look when he does it. But never have the courage to actually confront him.

I think you could try "What's wrong with that?". But it will probably just be answered with macho crap, so I dunno *Shrug*.

Courtney, don't feel bad about not blurting out what you were thinking. Some will say you should have said what's on your mind. Some don't care what ANYONE thinks. You have your own job consideration and you probably made the right decision considering what the majority of the people seemed to be saying. Saying what you wanted probably wouldn't have change anyone's mind and could have cost you your job.

I have four grown children in their forties, two boys and two girls. I have told my two daughters and they are cool about it and even supportive of me. My youngest son has also been let in on my "secret", he said cool and we haven't talked about it sense. My other son, oldest of the four is mister macho and very homophobic. Why tell him and maybe destroy our otherwise relationship. I have asked his siblings if I should tell him and ther responses were a big NO. He cannot accept that and would destroy your relationship with him.

Guess what I'm saying is what many say here. Why tell someone who doesn't NEED to be told and run the risk of being outed or ruining an otherwise good relationship . If everything we do were accepted by everyone we wouldn't have to explain anything to anyone. Just as many have said when your going out dressed be careful and safe. Dont put yourself in harms way.

To put things in perspective not everyone needs to know and even if you told everyone, if they think what we do is wrong your not going to change a lot of minds. Everyone needs to make their own decisions and how those decisions will affect their own lives.

Unfortunately this is the reality.

Sidney

yea I understand where you all are coming from for sure. it is a unnecessary risk most of the time. but I just felt bad for the young nephew who was bad mouthed by his own family member at work I just got super irritated.

Every so often, we get a patient in who's been in some type of accident while wearing some type of girly clothes, and the inevitable discussion among the staff (in private areas so they don't get caught being the rotten bigots that they are) about how silly the guy is for crossdressing. I've often brought up that they (the girls anyway) have worn their husband's shirts and thought nothing of it. When they of course giggle at that and say 'OH, but that's different!' I just say something along the lines of, 'No it's not, YOU'RE a transvestite! Do you like to parade around the house like that like a macho man pretending that you have a penis, too? You people really need to grow up. Get back to work.' Their faces usually drop. And yeah, seniority usually leaves me in charge of the department just about every time I work these days. So finally I CAN make a difference for all of my patients that like to bend the gender lines, without outing myself.

Recently, a bunch of us..all guys, were talking about football, basketball, etc. One guy does outside activities a lot. He was asked if he ever got cold. He said..nah. What about your legs, one asked. Without hesitation he said no, I wear pantyhose, with his wife’s suggestion. There was a moment of silence. A couple remarks were made about crossdressing, when another guy, ex football player said he wore them too. And said..they should try them. Little did they know I was wearing my panties and thigh highs. I just smiled. I’ll never know if they did..bet they did. I believe many men wear hose, etc. I think it’s us who keep the hose industry going.

Ive been in that same position at work and i was going to "come out" in stead , self preservation, my response was to say that i dont have a problem if some dose CD its there life.
Are they hurting you or anybody by CD'ing?

It was then that other people stood up and said yeah i dont see a big problem with it.
And just like that the conversation changed from people noding there heads and agreeing to forming there own opinions.
The person that started the conversation soon became quiet.

Sometimes people are just like sheep, follow the crowd, till some stands up and says something different.

It also helps that i am a of a solid build and 6 foot tall. Noone would pick that i like to CD.

wow you ladies are heroes in my book. anyone who stands up to these SOBs. if It ever gets brought up again in my department I'll try to diffuse the situation, respectfully of course. I just can't sit by with this stuff, it just doesn't feel right. especially when talk about Gender identity/fluidity, cross dressers, LGBTQ topics come up every so often in my department.always negatively though.

A lot of sound advice has been given by all. As Sidney stated there is no need to out yourself, tell people who doesn't need to know or put your position at risk. When those types of comments are made at work, especially concerning co-workers, normally I respond with something like "how does that effect you?" or "how does that effect their ability to do their job?". Not really changing anyone's minds, but I do feel obligated to say something.

Honestly, I doubt I would've outed myself. But I certainly would've said something akin to "So what? Why can't the kid dress however makes him happy? Doesn't hurt anyone!"

I always have interesting discussions a with fellow colleague,his views are a little right of centre,leads to some healthy debates between us.One night it turned to LGBT issues specifically Trans,and I found myself mounting a vigorous defence,he couldn't have missed the fact I was so knowlegable about the subject,not outing myself as such but still felt good defending our community

Sophie

Perhaps a discreet word with your HR department would be in order? Say that some of the workplace banter is making you feel uncomfortable. No need to be specific, or to point fingers, or to out yourself to anyone. HR can send out a gentle reminder that certain topics are off-limits in the workplace these days (for better or for worse).

When the subject swings to LGBT bashing I will always vigorously defend them from the bigotry that is usually leveled at them.

As I also know in some small way that includes myself and could very well include my kids one day.

When my friend and former work colleague whom I admire for her honesty and bravery when she came out as her femme self.

She came out when I was on vacation.
(She doesn’t know about Rebekah, though I have thought about telling her)
When I was told by my then departmental boss

The first word out of my mouth was “and”

Then told him how I admired her for her bravery. Having the guts to say this is me and this is who I am.

Back in 2012 one of our whse workers was in the break room and another guy grabbed the guys phone and started going thru his pics.
I said somthinge to the effect hey ahole put his phone down thats not cool. He laughed and kept scrolling and found a pic of the employee dressed as a girl for Halloween.
Well this started an issue and I stepped in and grabbed the phone and gave it back to the owner.
I said here that ass has no business doing that.
Well the laughing continued from that table of guys that saw the pic and I said whats the big deal ?
Its none of your business anyway so stay off his phone.
The poor guy was embarrassed and I said Its OK I get it it was Halloween and your wife thought it would be a cute costume.Nothing wrong with that so screw them.
He said thanks for stepping in and showing those guys what jerks they are. He showed me the pics and I looked and didn't judge at all much to his amazement. The last pic was really good and he looked like it was more a glamor shot and I said I like this one and you look great.
He laughed and said I like that one too.
So he was pretty much out but no one bothered him about it after that.
There were two gay fellows that worked in the whse but they played around too much and got canned eventually because they couldn't keep up the minimum production standards.
I see them at a few of the gay clubs in town but I never talk to them.

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Originally Posted by Courtney_29

wow you ladies are heroes in my book. anyone who stands up to these SOBs. if It ever gets brought up again in my department I'll try to diffuse the situation, respectfully of course. I just can't sit by with this stuff, it just doesn't feel right. especially when talk about Gender identity/fluidity, cross dressers, LGBTQ topics come up every so often in my department.always negatively though.

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It is a tough call. Advocating for those being denigrated invites questions as to your motivation. One thing might lead to another and suddenly, you're outed. It's a noble cause, but "is it worth it" is a perfectly valid question to ask yourself.

Sometimes, a sad, silent shake of the head sends the message.

I think it depends on the circumstances and the people involved. I will always speak up to defend a Trans/CD person, but not if it would make anyone suspicious of my reasons. I have found that speaking up usually gets support from other people.

Change peoples views by sounding out in defence, but it is important never to blow your own cover, if you do that others will think you are just grandstanding to make a point for yourself.

Your right Aunt Kelly. No one wants to be outed.
But if we word our response's, dont speek in haste, to these kind of people and prject it in the right way. We might have the chance to make at least 1 person to change there opinion. And that can have a ripple effect to changing other peopls opinions.
Yeah shaking your head can show ur dissaproval. But a response such as " one of my cousin's/best freind is ......." can protect yousself but still get your opinion's heard.

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Originally Posted by Miss V

I have a friend who makes fake puking noises whenever he sees a drag queen or crossdresser on TV. It's always irritated me, and I've always wanted to say something, but there is no way of knowing how people will react.

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I tend to be quiet is group settings (I'm the wallflower type), but if I was with a 'friend' like this, I think I'd have to give a loud sigh and say "Oh, grow up already!" -or something such.


I have found myself saying something like "OK - so what? What harm is it doing us, and why should we care?" but it's rare.

Like I said, I mostly keep quiet.

."somehow it got brought up at a morning meeting that a co workers teenaged nephew was caught crossdressing" ,,first thing that hit me is, Why is someone else's fami;y being brought up in a morning business meeting? Sort of sounds like a gossipy coffee klatch. If this was something that came up in a meeting that I had been at it would have been shut down immediately, since it surely had nothing to do with the business at hand.

It is not like that everywhere. I work in a very 'right on' environment and there are colleagues who are LBGT. Only one member of staff has ever made derogatory remarks and everyone thought she was horrible (and said so but perhaps not using that word). I feel comfortable defending freedom to dress as you wish without feeling I am effectively coming out. I wear opaque tights outdoors in very cold weather and though I do not tell people would not be alarmed if they were seen. But then I live in Scotland where we seem to have reached a stage of greater tolerance of variation than many other places.

You are not going to change people's perceptions of crossdressers by outing yourself. It's not worth the risk, especially at work. Your responsibility is to you and your family. If they were beating this crossdresser up, yes, you should step in and defend him. Not because he is a crossdresser but because he is another human being. A conversation? Just stay out of it.

I'm sorry but for me it's worth a little blowback stepping up to people who are being disrespectful. if nobody ever did that nothing would ever even have the chance to change. there is a time and place but for my situation it would've been fine to step in I just let nerves stop me. like some of you said I could interfere with a neutral standpoint.i just feel strongly about this I guess, it ruffled my feathers lol

I guess the the world is evolving in opinions on a lot of things , if people start talking about crossdressing who knows where it will go

If you’re wanting to challenge conversations like the one described by the OP without outing yourself, you need to plan.

Have you ever wondered why someone like a TV evangelist can answer any question challenging his or her beliefs? And do it instantly and effectively? The answer is years of practice. Belief is not enough. It’s because they’ve had the same questions thrown at them for years, and have various answers ready. The answer comes out so quickly and with a great delivery that the questioner (who is generally less prepared) struggles for a comeback.

In the absence of “years of practice” defending crossdressing to the general public, practice by yourself by being both sides of the conversation. Try coming up with “ignorant” questions and viewpoints and work out your own answers. Practice the answers until you’re happy with them. Work out how you can answer without outing yourself.

I used the above technique successfully in two careers. It doesn’t always work, but drastically reduced the amount of times
my response was “uh, erm...” and then thinking of an eloquent answer 5 minutes later.


For example, in the OP’s scenario you could have waited for a lull in the conversation and ask “Hey, I’m just playing devils advocate here, but what is the problem?” Then you could outline your points of view. You’ve already thought of several answers to potential responses, and (depending on the mood) your reply can include a question at the end to get that person on the defensive.

If asked “How do you know so much about it?”, again the rehearsed response is best. “I have a relative/friend/colleague who went through similar...”, or simply “I read a lot. Apart from reading about CD/trans issues, I’ve studied astronomy, history, economics, politics, to name a few. That mobile phone in your pocket is an encyclopaedia. Try using it as one instead of watching youtube or playing games!”

So you can see where I’m going with this. Rehearse your conversations.

Bear in mind that you’re unlikely to change the mind of your interlocutor, or anyone else present, but you can have your say, eloquently, and without outing yourself. And who knows, some of the others might nod silently with you as opposed to the other person.

Michelle

very good advice thanks. I did have an adrenaline rush when the situation was occurring and could've blurted out the thing thing but didn't thankfully. I swear it just seems like certain people have never been challenged on anything before so that alone could take them by surprise. (huh? somebody else has an opinion thats different than mine!?!)

While I’ll never come out dressed to my workmates, they know that I do.
Then there’s my footy club, I’m sure a lot of the guys have seen the pictures (shit ones that are 5-6 years old) they too will never see what I do in person.
I have no issues saying that yeah I do crossdress.

Changing others perception Courtney is perceived by them only! I worked in a most dangerous field where no men would go, so wearing burgundy nail polish was never questioned as no-one had the balls to be me!

Then we have the subtleties as I do now! I work in soup kitchens and with social groups, I'm there to be questioned when people look at my style, but hey! we can't do this 24/7

No matter what we could say or do, there are some that just won't change. I know there has been times I just wanted to blurt out, what would you say if I showed up to work in a dress and make up.
This is America everyone is entitled to their opinion as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others. Most larger companies have policies on inclusion including acceptance and tolerance. A possible response could be; " Hey you have to be careful. You never know who could be listening. Comments like that could get you in hot water. It is safer to keep those kinds of comments to yourself."

I think anyone who encounters intolerance should speak up. One does not have to say "Hey, I'm one of those people too!" In some respects identifying yourself as "one of those people" may lose some emphasis because the comeback may be "Oh, sure! He's one too! What do you expect?" I've encountered people who do not like transgender men and women, gays and lesbians, African-Americans, people of color, Jews, Catholics. Why would anyone just sit by idly and let those statements go unanswered? One of my deceased good friends has a grandson who is transitioning to a woman. My wife's cousin's daughter is transitioning to a man. We have friends and acquaintances who are gays and lesbians. We have African-Americans in the family. Mexican Americans. Disabled children. You name it, we got it.

If you do not challenge bigotry of any kind the person assumes you are like him. Join his club. Do you sit idly by and let racially insensitive remarks fly by, when it maybe obvious you're not of that racial group? My son-in-law and hence my grandson is African-American. I may let the person just go on talking his or her filth and then unload upon them for their racial bigotry.

The point is you should challenge intolerance when it stares you in the face.

“The point is you should consider challenging intolerance when it stares you in the face.”

Fixed it for you.

Sorry Stephanie, that’s keyboard warrior talk. All very noble and all that, but real life steps in and as much as you may want to, for all kinds of reasons you won’t. Sometimes people are intimidated, sometimes they don’t have the energy, and sometimes they don’t want to ruin a family function by bogging the conversation down with an argument, etc.

Sure, speak up if you want to, but don’t dictate to other people what they should do.

People who know me also know that my silence does NOT mean that I agree; more likely that I can’t be bothered arguing. And I get into plenty of “discussions” with intolerant people about whatever crap they’ve just said. I’m known as an argumentative bloke. But I’d probably let up to a third of such comments go “through to the keeper”, as we say in Australia. For reasons similar to the ones I mentioned earlier.

I’ve known several SJW’s in my life (many from before it was even a term) and they all have things in common: They have all lost jobs and work opportunities due to their outspokenness. They all lose most of their friends because they are exhausting people to be around; their friends leave them because they get tired of having to watch everything they say around them.

My point is, if you’re willing and able to stand up whenever you hear intolerance: well done! Power to you. Just don’t go around saying that everyone else should do the same. Not everyone can, and not everyone can all the time. And it’s no fault of theirs if they can’t.

Michelle

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Originally Posted by Courtney_29

somehow it got brought up at a morning meeting that a co workers teenaged nephew was caught crossdressing...

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Incidents like this always bring up the question, in my mind...

Are they actually talking about someone else -- or is this their way of them indirectly talking about *you*? :confused3:


You know, whether they have some sort of positive confirmation, or even simply strong suspicion.


Now, not saying that's the case every time.

However, perhaps something to keep in mind. ;)

Years ago, my immediate boss commented that I now knew that she was a lesbian, having visited her at her home and met her other half. My reply was that I had long suspected it, and that anyway, it did not change in any way my perception of her as a person.

I thought about telling her about my crossdressing, but decided not to. I now regret not having done so. She is no longer with us.

I had these topics come up in my office, my colleagues didn't have negative opinions just uneducated or unaware. I added a little but I often worry how do I respond like a non CDr to make sure I am not outed. My brain is wired to think any tiny sign I give someone to think I am a CD would be picked up on it and out me.

I have heard from guys many a times when they have been jokingly been accused of wearing a dress etc they respond, "only at the weekends". I have actually used the same expression when in a similar situation, to avoid suspicion and act like the norm.

Three sisters have touched on this, but I once read where a CDing guy said something like this in a similar conversation among normals: "I need to tell you that there's a young man in my family who crossdresses, and I love him very much. He's happy and his immediate family is happy for him. Unusual? yes, but he's not hurting anyone."

I'm with Michelle on the prepared responses. I totally get what you're saying about giving people clues that might lead to your secret. And it's too hard to be that careful in the heat of the moment, so you have to step back to protect yourself. I get it.

It's easy to predict how the interaction will go and be ready the next time. In my experience these people are mostly just looking for attention by spouting what they think will be a popular opinion. Tell them nobody cares. That's always my approach. They usually give up pretty easily because they don't actually care about the topic, just the attention. You'll also find that other people feel the same way as you but are not prepared to be the first one to express an allegedly unpopular opinion out loud. Then the guy will definitely give up because he's lost the crowd's approval which is all he wanted.

I'll just be classics like "well you seem to know a lot about it wink wink".. "yes, because I'm not a dinosaur like you. The world has changed, move on. Nobody cares any more".

Just stick with that line - you're making something out of nothing, nobody cares.