Don't Box Me In

I haven't posted here before, but thought that I'd write something that's been on my mind and came to light after reading some posts here. I reached a point where I don't want to be boxed in with any kind of label, whether that be gender, sexual orientation, political view, religious view, etc. It seems that as soon as I apply such a label to myself, others who do the same assume that because of this one commonality, then we must be the same in every other way.

It seems to me from reading these posts, that crossdressers like any other group is diverse and the experience of crossdressing can vary from one person to the next. I refuse to be boxed in by what other people expect I should be because of some label.

As I read this, it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. I suppose, I just want to point out that every person is unique, regardless of what they have in common with others.

Very diverse group on this site. The only thing we have in common is we like to wear panties

Jenny,
I could only place the labels back in their boxes when I was comfortably out in the RW . It enabled me to find a balance , I'm comfortable with being Teresa , I don't need any other labels , the boxes are sealed and pushed to the back of my wardrobe I don't need them anymore . Not one person in the RW has boxed me in by saying , " Oh you must be X or Y !" I've also learned to stop saying what boxes I felt I belonged in , it means very little to them and makes no difference to my life .

They have their purpose here and have been discussed many times.

As Teresa says they have little use in the RW as far as breaking it down like they do here.

To my friends I'm just Jean. That's good enough, but then this is the RW, I'm with them, interacting, so they can draw their own conclusions.

The same can apply here, it just takes awhile to get to know someone from their posts. Labels can shorten that.

I do understand that labels can change and not wanting to be boxed in.

Teresa and me are prime examples.

So today it maybe pink and tomorrow purple. A year from now who knows.

We are the same and at the same time very different. It is a confusing world.

Welcome, hope to hear more from you.

Love Jean

It's human nature to want to categorize things and arrange them in a "pecking order" in our heads. (fear of the unknown) It's also human nature to want to belong to a group (safety in numbers)

So we often subconsciously label our selves and others, it makes us feel safe because we (at least think) we then know who is "good" or "bad".

Believe me I have railed against labels time and time again here, but the more you fight them the more you get labeled.

Made perfect sense to me. I feel exactly the same way. Part of that is I don't know what label fits me at this time and part of it is I feel like i am always changeing. How do you label somebody who might be different tomarrow. I know I am weird but I don't care.

Jenny,
After reading Roberta's reply I guess there is a need to feel secure at some point in our journey , maybe we are lost without a box to comfortably slip into until we do find oursleves . I know the medical profession need some criteria or framework to work with , without a box how can you diagnose a patient .

The important thing is boxes aren't for life at some point they are a restriction , still most of my life I've lived and worked very much outside the box , photography is that kind of occupation as is my art now and lets not forget being TG !!

It's a paradox. A wise person I once spoke to at a TCNE open house said that everyone who comes there seems to spend an inordinate amount of time and energy defining exactly who or what they are, and at the same time, can take great umbrage if anyone else dared to define them.

It's not wrong. It's just an indicator of the slipperiness of personal and social identity.

Well, if your goal is to be as “unique” as possible, sure those labels can feel confining. But common ground is also a medium for connecting with other people.

Roberta was right about everybody using labels. It’s simply how the human brain works. But if you simply reject those labels out of hand, you could be denying someone a chance to get to know you and move beyond the labels, which is the only legitimate way to move beyond labels.

I know how you feel I don't care for labels either.
Many people need them to feel accepted or feel they belong somewhere.
I have never been one to feel the need to fit in.

Hi, Jennifer. In our "Trans" world, labels and their definitions help to define which "trans" we are or might be. But, the only one who can assign a label to you is YOU! So, don't. Be label free, if that's your desire, but enjoy your femme times.

I've always recommended people to talk in complete sentences and paragraphs and not give one word answers. You're right in that many people make broad assumptions if you agree on one issue, then you automatically agree on all issues.

O... M... G...
Again with the labels thing.

Labels are just words. Words are the verbal or literary (or visual in the case of sign language) constructs that we use to convey ideas and information. They do this through the convention of language, an agreed upon meaning for each word in the lexicon. If we were to unilaterally insist that a word does not mean what it has come to mean according to that consensus, communication immediately becomes more difficult, if not impossible. Why, oh why is that so hard for some here to accept?
If you identify as male, wearing clothing regarded as female makes you a crossdresser, by definition. Denying that is pointless, to the point of being irrational, but... all the other stuff that is heaped upon you, by those who who are ignorant of who you otherwise are, does not invalidate the label. Their prejudice is not the fault of the word, so stop denying. Stop running from who you are. You, me, all of us here, are so much more than what a single word, however accurately applied, conveys. Reject prejudice, sure, but don't reject your words.

I agree with Kelly. The labels are just part of the conversation. I have been uncomfortable with the recent trend of a few to express disdain about using certain words here. Many people come here desperate for understanding. Even the ones now discouraging the use of labels were at one time desperate for understanding and clung on to some of those labels as they struggled to find themselves.

If labels do not apply to you, then do not use them, simple. But, please do not discourage conversations by implying that certain words are not useful.

As for the real world, perhaps appearing female and going to the market or the bank does not require labels but that is such a small part of the real world. I have had many opportunities to use the labels. When I met at the state capital and met with lawmakers, the LGBTQ Caucus, labels was the language we spoke. When I talked to a local school board about marginalizing a young trans girl, the usual words were used. I recently did a sensitivity training for 45 mental health professionals. That cannot happen without using the words that have no use in the RW.

Today the Supreme Court of the United States is hearing three cases related to gender identity and gender discrimination. I expect that the labels will be freely used in making the cases. There are three organizations in the Houston area that focus on educating the populace about TG rights, equality and social justice.

The medical and mental health services that treat trans people rely on the proper terminology for diagnosis and treatment. Of course, health insurers need the i’s dotted and the t’s crossed on the proper labels.

In the RW there is a line where ignorance and intolerance meet education and the need for social justice. If I gave it much thought I am sure that other applications would come to me. Again, if you do not like labels then don’t use them. But please do not discourage the conversation needed to help others.

Maybe we should go back to Jenny's comments about people attempting to box her in , Aunt Kelly says they are only words but some people use them in an attempt to control and restrict in an effort to get them to comply , I lived through that situation for many years . I'm almost free of that but it has left it's scars .

I appreciate the point Jeri Ann makes but very few of us are going to be faced with that level of officialdom .

Step aside from TG issues and just consider the general public , the majority of people live very happily without labels the TG community isn't so different to be singled out , maybe that is the point that needs rectifying .

The RW is the RW to me , not just a jaunt to the supermarket .

There is nothing wrong with using these labels when they serve a purpose but should not be used to abuse and control another person , I consider myself very lucky that I haven't been abused in that way since totally coming out .

Jenny! Yes! Yes! And a def hell yes! I agree with you on so many levels, I cannot stand labels and trying to put all the same color crayons in the same group. However, our world has been built on them.

I think its human nature to group up with those that are similar to oneself, just like you are on a website dedicated to crossdressing. Now comes the fun. Even here they've seen and appropriately addressed the need for specific groups and sections for discussion. Some groups require an application to join because at some point we actually need labels and the exclusivity of them.

Culturally, I side with some and not with others, the same goes for religion race political views etc. In the end it should only be about how a person treats you and your reaction to it.

I guess what I'm getting at is I don't like when I'm judged for associating with a label, let alone trying to settle on just ONE to describe me lol, however I use them to find like minded people. I love ICP, so I look for juggalos. I love the Lakers, I seek out other fans. I have friends that hate and despise both of those favorites of mine, and I hate their choices. Do they treat me with respect? Absolutely. Can we have fun and poke some fun at each others beliefs or better, can we sit and discuss our differences and find common ground? Or can we coexist while agreeing to disagree? That has been the key to every one of my treasured relationships that are my life.

I love your post and how it provoked this thought and feeling inside me. I hope your day is fantabulous!!!!!!

Sometimes. labels are necessary. Such as rapist, murderer, thief, and positive labels, as hero, helper, friend, pet, team mate, Good Samaritan. In this world, as tough as it sounds, labels are often helpful and necessary. They can be used in love, or disdain. Human nature has not changed much over the millenia. When i was in the Air Force boot camp, I was called a "boot|, like the other recruits. When i got my stripe, i was called an Airman, despite the fact I never rode on an Air Force plane. Sometimes, we are just too dern thin skinned, and hyper sensitive, too. I agree with the fact, that we are all unique individuals, but all share human nature.

LOL Have to agree with a lot of "labels have a purpose" I started many years ago with the same attitude towards being labled and have found they have a purpose in helping be understand and handle understang who i am as a person. Sure even saying I don't want to be "Boxed" puts you IN the group of Anti-Boxers vs Pro-Boxers. I would not be surprised if you stated a whole new classification of terminology.

ARE YOU WITH ME PRO_BOXERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unique individuals sums us all up completely I reckon each and everyone of us has differences of opinion about personal presentation and so forth and as such there can never be one such label that encompasses us all completely, if one wants a label that's up to them, I have ne need to feel I need a label as such, I am me and that is that. The only box I have is where I pack all of my horrible memories of my life as a whole.

I understand what your saying jenny and agree 100%. The biggest thing is TG's trying to label CD's as TG's when we are not. Like saying such a thing brings more members to their cause. Sorry we have our own cause. We don't automatically fall in that category when to us, it's about the clothes and the look, and presenting for a period of time not saying we are a woman trapped in a man's body. That's just one label....the list goes on and on.....

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Originally Posted by Paulie Birmingham

The only thing we have in common is we like to wear panties

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I wouldn't even say that. If I am going full nine I may wear them to complete the outfit/look but i wouldn't say I "like" to wear them. Or a bra for that matter now that I am thinking about it.

I hear ya, but I have to say that every CD is a little TG or you probably wouldn't have ever even had the desire to CD.

Believe me not too long ago I would have argued about how wrong that statement is. And I would have followed it up with the same "it's about the clothes and the look, and presenting for a period of time not saying we are a woman trapped in a man's body."

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Originally Posted by Jenny22

Hi, Jennifer. In our "Trans" world, labels and their definitions help to define which "trans" we are or might be. But, the only one who can assign a label to you is YOU! So, don't. Be label free, if that's your desire, but enjoy your femme times.

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Jenny22 I think your talking to me if not I apologize. I understand the label idea I just reject the labels. I don't know of any that are super accurate. If I have to have one I guess I'm genderfluid, or gender nonconforming, or non binary. They all kind of fit but not really. It is all under the transgender umbrella but that is to broad a description as we can see here. I go from rugged boy to complete girl or anywhere in between just depends on the day.

I guess in some cases labels are needed. How could we find this forum if not for the label "crossdresser". I think it's how a label is used and if others use that label to describe someone that doesn't want to use that label that makes the difference.

As others said above, I think similar to what Teresa said, that outside of this forum I rarely use the labels talked about here. This forum is the only place I use trans related labels to describe who I am. Outside this forum I rarely talk to anyone about my personal self. And I don't think I ever commented on what label another wants to use for themselves.

I think the only label I use is "Goth". I feel in my past that the coolest people I met were other goths so I kinda like being labeled that so I might meet another goth. I don't know if there are any goths out there anymore, but it's nice to think so. I guess that is when a label is used for good. To find someone with same interests. If a cd is interested in finding kindred spirits then labeling themselves as such makes it easier to find a friend.

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Originally Posted by ~Joanne~

... The biggest thing is TG's trying to label CD's as TG's when we are not. Like saying such a thing brings more members to their cause. Sorry we have our own cause. We don't automatically fall in that category when to us, it's about the clothes and the look...

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Sigh...
This exactly what I am talking about. By convention, the term "transgender", or TG, is used as an "umbrella term", which includes TS, CD, NB, and all the other gender nonconforming labels. That convention does not cease to exist because you don't like or understand it, but communication immediately suffers when you use the term as you do.

Thanks for your replies, everyone. This was a nice way to break the ice.

For better or worse, I believe that labels are just a part of human nature and they are neither inherently good nor evil. It all depends on the context.

Think of it this way - one of my hobbies is cycling and I have several bikes. To my non-cyclist friends, I have 3 bikes. But to my cycling friends, I have a mountain bike, a triathlon bike, and a gravel bike. And to my gravel bike friends, I have a Specialized Diverge (not to be confused with a cyclocross bike) set up for gravel touring - Shimano 105 components, front and rear pannier racks, hydraulic disc brakes and currently debating tubeless tires. My triathlon cycling friends wouldn’t know the first thing about pannier racks even though we’re all cyclists who sometimes ride on the same bike paths/streets but sometimes venture down quite different terrain even though we’re all on bikes of some sort.

The gender and crossdressing spectrum is no different. Sometimes I’d like to reach out to a TG woman because I’m curious about a particular trans woman topic. Sometimes I’m looking to chat about balancing my CD life versus my wife and kids, and it’s useful to be able to focus my search within that particular community, or maybe even get an opinion from a CD spouse. And sometimes I just want some advice on pantyhose or breastforms and don’t really care if the opinion comes form a straight CD or a gay trans woman or a gender fluid androgynous person or anything in between. Don’t get me wrong - there’s tremendous value in getting opinions outside your particular bubble. But on average, triathlon bikes are very different from gravel bikes, mountain bikes, touring bikes, etc.

Hope this all makes sense. There’s a time and a place for labels as long as they’re used with respect and within the proper context.

I'd like to just throw in a little humor on labels as Willie sang " I'm just an OLD HIPPIE and I don't know what to do " well really an old crossdressing hippie and I can take and live that label enjoying it through life. Forget to say I don't fit into the box ( too big ) but I can find a dress!

I hate labels as well. It divides the continuum that we all form into groups and that does not represent reality. The reality is the continuum. Of all the responses to this invigorating subject, I think Aunt Kelly hit bulls eye the best, in my opinion. Others were also on that track. The labels are just a way of communicating effectively about some subject. Unfortunately, a lot of people like to take those labels are get tribal about it all. Humans do that a lot. It is part of the formation of an us/them approach to relationships that is sometimes healthy but other times very unhealthy. I suggest to the OP to just let the labels roll off and continue to embrace the idea that, when it comes to CDing or whatever, and live in the real world as a majority of one that comes from your uniqueness. And everybody else is a majority of one. Then the labels become simply a communication tool. But if others want to be tribal, that's OK so long as they don't try to impose that on others. My 2 cents worth.

As some have pointed out labels are an integral part of our daily communication. I think that those who use labels to address us, whether crossdressers, transgender, etc. are simply using the generally accepted lexicon; and I have no problem with that. If, on the other hand, it is used to humiliate, discriminate, etc. then yes it is inappropriate. How people treat me and their attitude toward me is much more important than a label they may use.

I think that one has to decide what label they use to describe themselves. It shouldn't be up to others to decide what label they are, even if they fit into a certain label.

As some said labels do help to communicate but how many here want to wear a label cd or transgender when they walk about town. Most here write posts of how they want to blend in, blending in means not labeling oneself while out and about. Again, labeling and talking about one self on a forum is OK but to have to label themselves as they walk about seems uncomfortable. There were even post where the question was what to do if one encounters a cd in public. Most said leave the person alone, they probably don't want to be known as a cd, they want to just go about their day as a woman.

Take the label gay, we all know what that label means but there are some in society that engage in gay sex but would violently argue with you if you called them gay. There was a segment of society that I grew up with in the Bronx and they had the belief that only one man is gay during sex with each other while the other was straight. And to tell the straight guy he was gay would have been met with violence upon the person saying he was gay. Same goes for some bars I went to. There would be an obviously looking man, the only thing he was wearing a dress. Another man would have sex with this man and not label himself as gay, even though the label fits. I am on a forum for sex workers. I can't use the word they use cause cd.com banned the label they use. The men on that site love these girls cause they still have their male naughty bits. And no matter how much these men adore the maleness of these girls if one was to call these men gay, they would get very angry. I called them gay just to get them angry.

There was a guy who I met in a bar and he demanded to be called a woman even though he didn't have any woman traits. I had a long discussion with him about it, I was with the old style girls and thought one should try and look the part. But he was either honestly a woman or a very good debater, cause in the end if that was what he wanted and who was I to say otherwise.

I started my journey before there was a word transgender. Some say the word transgender is old but among the girls I knew in the streets and bars, none used the term transgender. Now that a group of elite scholars, psychiatrists and political activists now say that is the label for me, why should I accept it? I was OK living my life without that label, why should people put upon me a label. The label might describe me but I might not want to be part of an umbrella. Same goes for a cd who was a cd before the label transgender came about. Maybe they want to known as a cd and not the broader term transgender.

I am for choice. I believe it's up to each individual to choose what they want to be known as. Anyways whose to say that 5 or 10 years down the road these scholars decide that a new label should be used. Does that make the old label wrong. I think using labels to discuss matters like on a web forum is cool. It does help to describe things. But out and about the world is much different. One just wants to live and do their business without a scarlet T on their dress. Labels are ok if the person wants to use that to describe themselves. If the person doesn't want to use a certain label then it's up to others to accept that.

On a lighter note, and not disrespecting the thread, where would you be without a label on your panties? Maybe there is some comfort if the labels you associate with are the same as used by others concerning you.

I'm not sure I agree, Jenny. Just because u define yourself as a bricklayer doesn't mean u must agree when someone says all bricklayers r ignorant. Does it?:straightface:

Labeling yourself as nothing simply means u may have no concept of who or what u r. U r branding yourself as an outsider!
Sorry if I'm boxing u in. But, u have only yourself to blame!:heehee:

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Originally Posted by Paulie Birmingham

Very diverse group on this site. The only thing we have in common is we like to wear panties

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Wrong, Paulie! I, for one, am NOT a pantie fetishist!:thumbsdn:

Sherry ,
While I'm not going to put words into Jenny's mouth I believe she's suggesting people wish to box her in to make her comply . OK the boxes do exist and there is a need for them in circumstances as others have mentioned but should not be used to control another person .

I had to use boxes to find myself , especially when I was in counselling , they needed a peg to hang my hat on ! As Amelia also comments in the RW they have limited value , we don't get into conversations with people where we need to use them .

Amelie said what I was babbling on about, except she said it clearly lol

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Originally Posted by Amelie

I think that one has to decide what label they use to describe themselves. It shouldn't be up to others to decide what label they are, even if they fit into a certain label.

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So a label, a word with a specific meaning, no longer applies because you say it doesn't? Everyone else knows what "crossdresser" means, but they're all wrong because you say so? That's the intellectual equivalent of closing your eyes and chanting "you can't see me..."
Again, I don't think it's the label you're objecting to as much as it is the misuse of that label by others.

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Again, labeling and talking about one self on a forum is OK but to have to label themselves as they walk about seems uncomfortable.

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What does that even mean? What does "labeling" one's self by walking about look like? Does it hook in the front, or the back? How is it sized? What size is the type?

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Take the label gay, we all know what that label means but there are some in society that engage in gay sex but would violently argue with you if you called them gay.

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So that means what? That they're not really gay because they're to ashamed to admit to what they clearly are? Sorry, but that's nonsense. Two cis males having sex is pretty gay, bisexual at a stretch.

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I started my journey before there was a word transgender. Some say the word transgender is old but among the girls I knew in the streets and bars, none used the term transgender. Now that a group of elite scholars, psychiatrists and political activists now say that is the label for me, why should I accept it?

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Ah... Now we get down to it. "Elite" being the Tea Party code word for "people who are smarter than me", you chafe at the authority that you believe shouldn't apply to you. You're special and all the words that reasonable people use to communicate with each other should not apply to you because... what? Politics?

Please...

Categorization is a strategy that has been with us since we were in caves. It helped us survive and evolve by making the world easier to understand but it doesn't serve us very well anymore. Now, it seems, categories are used by those who want to control or oppress others by minimizing their human uniqueness.


Rather than saying something fits or doesn't fit a category in a binary sense, we can now express the degree to which something fits by using fuzzy logic. That's a term that probably turns off the binary thinkers who believe fuzzy suggests a lack of rigor or commitment.

So now, instead of saying I am trans, I can describe myself as a percentage on a transness scale, because I fit the trans category in some ways but not in others, and few people, if any, fit in a box 100% to the exclusion of all others. And our minds are big enough and flexible enough to accommodate each other as individuals rather than occupants of a given box.

So go on being who you are and think as little as you can about whether you fit this stereotype or that, or any for that matter.

One of your best posts, Auntie! We use commonly understood terms to communicate, to understand each other.

As far as I'm concerned, u can call yourself Yankee Doodle. But, I may think of u as a nut case!:devil:

On the other hand, if I call u Yankee Doodle does that mean u have to believe u r him? Of course not! So, most of this "boxed in" talk is nonsense!:straightface: