Is there really a woman within?

One of the more common concepts on this site is that of the "feminine side" of our personalities that we express when dressing. While this may be true for others, I've never felt that I've had one. My personality remains unchanged, although it may appear to others to have done so. I am just as likely to pick up a socket wrench as an eyebrow pencil (actually more likely as I gave up on makeup sometime back and actually prefer women who don't use it, or if they do, do so very lightly).
I don't think we should necessarily invoke some sort of multiple personality as an excuse for a clothing preference. Mine is perverse enough to come up with that on it's own. All I know is that the level of comfort afforded by a full length silk skirt is it's own reward and needs no such excuse.

DL I can sure relate to what you wrote. I have older vehicles, and have to work on them an awful lot, all my adult life. I am an abused man, from my extremely toxic family, and i am insane, at least much of me is, and an extremely sensitive depressive damaged misunderstood tortured soul. No love in this toxic world. Dressing is my artistic temporary escape from the living hell of my family and life. Not sure about the woman within. I tend to think like an abused man or woman.

I am the same donnalee. I believe my personality is the same, whatever I am wearing.

Hi Alice Torn. Realy sorry to hear about the pain in your life and sincerely hope you continue to find peace with this. I always find comfort within the pink fog.

I find expressing my feminine side a beautiful contrast to my daily male role. I enjoy exploring this new opportunity.

I wouldn't say my personality changes when I dress. I have some strong feminine aspects to my personality in general that are always there and dressing is an outward way for me to express them. I'm not using it as or looking for an excuse.

donnalee, I really do not think of myself as having a woman within, multiple genders, or taking on a different persona or personality when I dress. As I have written about elsewhere on this forum, my view is that gender, and transgender, is a continuum. Some people are, and feel, solidly male. I do not. I feel more female whether or not I am presenting as a man. The image you see in my avatar IS my self-image and I often am literally surprised (and frankly disappointed) to look in the mirror and see my male presentation staring back.

For me, it is not that I somehow become somebody different when I dress. I am always the same person, always the same place on the gender continuum, just playing different roles and wearing different costumes. So, I have never liked or agreed with the terminology of feminine side or woman within. I just do not compartmentalize like that. Wearing women’s clothes, for me, is gender confirming. Nancy

The crossdressing behavior we all exhibit to some degree or other takes on many forms of expression and reaction. It seems to be the nature of the phenomenon. There is no right way or wrong way; there are just different ways and the behavior serves many different purposes. For me there is a definite shift that occurs in my thinking and that seems to generate the desire to express differently than the way of social expectations.

But in reviewing the professional, peer reviewed literature on the subject, it appears that may be one way that some use, others achieve the feeling of femininity by dressing. In other words, the clothes trigger the feeling rather than the feeling triggering the dressing. Then there are others who dress in women's clothes but never really gain the feeling of "being a woman."

Of course the feeling of being a woman is mostly an expression, a way to state what is felt. The fact is, nobody feels like a man or a woman - they feel like themselves. So the feeling like a woman is more of an interpretation of how one feels and with no other way to actually communicate the feelings in such a way that others can understand, the expression is generated. At least that is what some experts in this field believe is the case. In other words it is not a matter of simple cause and effect. It is a complex behavior where a person adapts their behavior and the feelings they have to express it in the terms of the society in which they live. In that sense, the behavior that we exhibit, is no different than the behavior that everybody exhibits. It is all a matter of adapting our personal, individual sense of self as generated by the interplay of physiology, genetics, and environmental influences. It is a style of expression that identifies a location, your location, on a vast and diverse spectrum of actually normal behaviors.

In societies where the behavior we exhibit is perfectly acceptable the conflicts we experience as a result of living in a society that has a different view of sex and gender simply do not occur. People like us feel perfectly acceptable and are viewed as perfectly acceptable although different from the more "normal" people in that society and culture. If those gender variant people came here they would likely face the same conflicts many of us face. And they would be very puzzled about why being who they are is somehow not alright in the view of many.

In my view, your personal perception of yourself and your reactions are normality for you. The problems that sometimes arise come from finding ways to adapt that feeling of self to a social context where it is not, at least at present, widely accepted by "normal" people - whatever "normal" might be relative to the social context. If your behavior serves a purpose in your life then it may be a behavior that allows some degree of adaptation to the society in which you live. Even though what you and others like you and like the rest of us who do this may seem out of whack with reality it most certainly is not. It is our way of adapting who we are personally to a society that avoids the need to deny yourself to fit. That denial never ends well. In short, you are fine. It is just a difficult adaptive behavior to implement. Fortunately, society is changing rapidly so people like us are viewed as more acceptable, even though different. But it may be a long time before people like us are accepted completely by all.

So, is there really a woman within? No, there isn't. There is only you within and you are configured along the lines of the multitude of ways that human beings can be configured. My suggestion, is to enjoy being yourself and who you are, but do it wisely. You are just a part of the minority group the rest of us are a part of. Why? There are no firm answers, but it does appear to be a part of the vast and wonderful diversity that is a part of being human.

Nancy, I can relate with what you wrote. I think part of why i am this way, is my mom was smothering, and my dad was distant, and great troubles between my dad and i. I think i am a lot like my mom , but sometimes like my morose, angry dad, too

I find "no personality change" to be true with most of the CDs that I know in real life. It also seems to be true with the few transexuals that I've met. As far as a woman within, that's not the same as personality and it varies with each of us from zero-X%. That could be psychological, hormones or something else physical.

With me, the thought and feeling of a woman within comes and goes. If my personality changes it's kind of just an act, or is it a part of me that wants to be expressed? Anyway, it's a good question to ponder.

Gender is a continuum; as is society's expectations of how a male or female should react, dress, or engage in specific activities (i.e. sports, "masculine" activities such as construction, etc.). That having been said there are emotional, and physiological differences between the sexes. I fall many times on the female side: and the dressings and mannerisms are a reflection of that.

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Originally Posted by Alice Torn

DL I can sure relate to what you wrote. I have older vehicles, and have to work on them an awful lot, all my adult life. I am an abused man, from my extremely toxic family, and i am insane, at least much of me is, and an extremely sensitive depressive damaged misunderstood tortured soul. No love in this toxic world. Dressing is my artistic temporary escape from the living hell of my family and life. Not sure about the woman within. I tend to think like an abused man or woman.

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If your family is abusive, there is no rule forcing you to stay. Why not remove yourself from said toxic situation?

Short answer: No.

Longer answer: The reason I felt there might be a "woman within" is that I never felt that I measured up to my own exaggerated ideas of manliness. I didn't want to either. So by default I must be feminine or have a feminine side. or a woman within, or be a woman trapped in a mans body or something like that. But that's flawed logic. The fact that I like lasagna, Vivaldi, and Gina Lollobrigida doesn't make me Italian. (nor does it make you not Italian if you don't like those things.) So not being the paragon of manliness or liking "feminine" things does not make me female in any way. It's fun to pretend, though.

I really feel the same as you do, I have always said there is no "woman living in side me" DRAG or DRAB I am the same person with the same thoughts, fears and desires.

I prefer to present as female because that's how I always feel, I can't just turn it off and put it all away until next time.

For me the answer is yes

It's complicated as I live like two lives. My work life and my personal life.

Yes at all times I'm the same person, even though my behavior may be a little different. I have been told I think like a girl, I don't know what that means. I do get emotional.

I'm out and not hiding, I have found that most everyone accepts me. A few years ago I was standing with a friend, we are in the middle of the room with our backs against the bar. A small town locals hangout. this is my home town, these people are my friends. Anyway my friend looks at me and says " you know we are the only normal people here". My friend is a machinist , normal guy. I'm me, in a dress and heels.

Yesterday I worked construction during the day. I was working for a friend so I left my nails on. I normally don't as work trash's your nails. last night I took my roommate to the bar for the Halloween party. I made her a poodle skirt and my sexy nun costume.

So worked all day with my nails that I had put on the day before, and lost one at the bar.

My gay boyfriend who dumped me, we are still close friends. his sister is a costume designer, lives in LA, made him a beautiful wedding dress that he wore last night, full beard. Also another couple I know we're dressed alike. I don't know the characters but they were both in blue chiffon dress. He too has a full beard.

These are close friends of mine. they are not like me, for them it is just a costume.

What an interesting discussion. Now, when a boy wanted so badly to be a girl, prayed every night to wake up as a girl, played with girls and girlish things, who wanted so badly to wear girls pretty things, who so envied girls long hair and curls, that would be me. So, is there really a woman (female) within, considering I fully dress every day as one, my answer would be, yes, I think so. Hmmmm.

Micki_Finn: Alice has said on numerous occasions that there is just her. But, to a large amount, she has accepted that.

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Originally Posted by donnalee

I don't think we should necessarily invoke some sort of multiple personality as an excuse for a clothing preference.

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It is a mistake to think that every cross dresser's psyche should be just like yours, or that their experience is somehow "invoked". Gender identity is still far from completely understood, but it is safe to say that for many, it is about as far as one can get from a choice.

No, we are not all trans.

"The Woman Within" aside from being a legitimate business may be within all men to some degree. A counselor I see for war related PTSD issues is of the opinion that each man and woman has some dna within their profile of the opposite sex. She says in some it is greater than others. That seems plausible. It may account for the wide range of sexual identities and orientations.

My "awakening" did not occur until puberty although I was drawn to the feel of my mother's nylon slips that she hanged to dry in the apartment hallway and a drying rack in the bathroom. Was that a hint of what was to come although I was a rough and tumble boy who got into more trouble than most boys on the block. I've encountered over the years a lot of guys who seem to behave like cavemen or neanthropals. Others seem to have more sensitivity towards others, especially the infirm and kids. More nurturing which always seems to be ascribed to women.

In my everyday reading I encounter so many scientific articles concerning genes and gene therapy it makes me think my counselor's point of view has merit. As to the real world other than myself I am aware of three men and women who have been torn by an apparent misalignment of birth sex with sexual identity. I don't think this has anything to do with clinical multiple personalities.

I think we all can agree that it is far more a matter of our perception of what judgement society makes and our reaction to those perceptions that causes us to think of it as a "feminine side" when we put on a dress, more of a " if it walks like a duck" thought process. Even though our behavior may be quite natural to us, we tend to self judge on the basis of what we believe society expects and go through a lot more agony than is desirable or even necessary about it.
When those we desire to please react badly to our behavior, the tendency is to indulge in self blame rather than realising it is their problem, not ours that they allow their concept of society's dictates to determine their reaction rather then thinking "I know this person to be the best of people so they must have an overwhelming desire to do this and who does it really hurt?", instead of putting their partner through hell and breaking up an otherwise good , mutually beneficial relationship. (As a personal note, I have been extremely lucky, or perhaps chose well in this regard as my partner of over 40 years had no problems with me dressing other than a concern for my safety and a later relationship didn't, either).

I have NO "woman inside". Altho I waited years for "her" to appear.:sad:

I do some things in a more masculine manner and others in a more fem way. However, I don't think of them in term of gender. To me, they're ALL just the way I do them, period. I don't believe I'm fem no matter how I'm dressed!:straightface:

However, I've met 100's of trans. Some were so feminine in manner that I had no choice by to think of them and treat them as women. Even tho many were masculine in appearance.
My T roommate in Vegas recently is one. There is nothing male about her. Including her physical looks!:battingeyelashes:

Another shout here for those who dress as women without feeling they are one - even slightly. ACTING and DRESSING as the other gender is fun, but it doesn't automatically mean you have some female content. No actor really believes they are the character they are playing, but they enjoy the process.

There is no woman inside me. I'm an xy Who happens to like wearing panties and pantyhose. And occasionally other famine other things. But even dressed I am an alpha Male.

my ex used to say you change when youre dressed, my feminine side is definately unleashed and iam always pleased to see her

I like to beave I do have a woman within. :hugs:
Angie

I wouldn't say "a woman within," but most definitely a feminine side that unleashes when I dress. It feels like a release when I do. My walk, talk and mannerisms assume definite feminine attributes and I love it. My perspective alters and on occasion even a shift in sexual orientation. (To the point I realize that I'm bi-sexual and probably always was, but never admitted it to myself.)
Took me a long time to accept that my feminine side was not a sign of weakness which is what the environment I grew up in conditioned me to think.
Actual gender is irrelevant. I enjoy it and that's it. I don't feel bad about it.

For me, I would not say that I have a woman within. There is definitely a female side to my personality. In an effort to help my wife, and the couple we have come out to, I use the analogy that I have an alter ego, and she is female. That helps to compartmentalize my dressing into something with a label that is easier to accept. In many ways it helps my wife accept this facet of my personality when I refer to my female persona as she or her and that she is only a small part of the complete me. I am very fortunate to have a wife and close friends that accept my dressing, and if using a second person pronoun helps to maintain that acceptance then I am more than willing to continue doing it.

Caylee, I like your term of "alter ego". I think that is what i really have, too. Not really a woman.

Only with SOME crossdressers. Since there is a WIDE variety of REASONS that express themselves in Cross-Dressing, Transsexualism, sadomasochism, escapism other things combinations of factors and varying degrees, we cannot say any one thing is common to all male crossdressers, except they are inclined to wear women's clothing.

Most definately there is with me.

My experience with dysphoria suggests it's not a "woman inside" or a "feminine aspect", but something more basic in my life. If I'm not engaged in something that takes my full attention or can't be seen as validating my internal view of womanhood, the dysphoria pops up. I've spent way too much time accommodating the dysphoria only to discover I've been playing a short game against a long term challenge.

Oh, sure...a women within, though a relative term, defines that we all have a set of personality potentials that are part of our birthright, but that society labels as “feminine” and says he should suppress.
I believe most of us here have made contact with these potentials and found their expression fulfilling.
We integrate this into our whole personalities, and are able to smooth off some of the macho rough edges programmed by being brought up in a gender defined society.
I for example was raised to embrace my feminine side as a coddled undeveloped baby boy that got well with hormone therapy and grew breasts before most girls my age.
Whether Mom saw divine intervention or what, it was evident she saw the daughter she always wished for.
Hence I was a girl in my mind very early in my life. I do believe my experience, beside having menstrual issue, living as a female and not transiting do to cost, had me wondering and exploring my male side later in life.
Today, it's all about reminiscing about my childhood and longing to return to being my feminine self again.
I'll always have the need to wear soft fabrics, smell nice and clean, cross my legs when sitting, and don jewelry.
Feminine women were always a big influence throughout my life.

*scratches beard thoughtfully*

Nah, not me. As I stated in another thread, we're all different and we all have different motivations or triggers for this, from people who suffer from true gender dysphoria to guys who simply have a bit of a kink to them. For my own lot - I've felt the guilt and shame, coupled with the worry that even though I didn't feel these feminine feelings I've read about either emotionally or sexually, they'd appear at some point and throw myself into turmoil. 35 years and a spot of therapy later and they STILL haven't arrived, so the only conclusion I could draw was... I just view myself as a regular guy who from time to time has slightly different clothing preferences than "the norm." and that realization has been massively freeing for me.

Disclaimer: My opinions, based on what I've learned through my life, and the observations of others.
As already mentioned, we are always, who we are. What we commonly see, is men who have been brought up to believe that being feminine in any way is the worst possible thing that a boy/man can be. common insults that both grown men and women direct towards men to shame them, are sissy, lady, girly, p***y, etc., in order to insinuate that the target of derision is 'less than a REAL man'.
What we wind up with, is many of us will use our language in an attempt to distance ourselves from the feminine, in order to save our egos (after all, no REAL man would ever behave like, dress like, speak like or think, 'like a woman', because that's the worst thing in the world that we could ever do). We use female names in third person as if it's not really us who are feeling those 'bad' feminine feelings, or not behaving in the 'bad' feminine way. Some will refer to their female feelings as a 'side' of themselves, rather than admit that it's all an integral part of one person.
Even merchants will go along with this, Lane Bryant developed their line of 'women within' catalogs which enable us to pretend that outwardly, we're still rough and ready 'real men', and not lesser 'girly men', while also letting women also pretend that they can exhibit the 'preferential' masculine behavior when they want to, but still remain female at heart.
Women date murderers, rapists, wife beaters, seriel killers, megalomaniacs who kill on a grand scale, ruthless supposed 'pillars of society' who intentionally ruin millions of other people's lives. And those women still find these reprehensible men sexually attractive. It's all built into us, for women to admire those few traits that might make a man powerful and successful enough to ensure that her offspring will survive. Doesn't matter what he will do to other people, or even, to HER, as long as he might stick around long enough for those kids to grow up. So those women are inherently drawn to bad men. Same as we are instinctually attracted to females who appear to be only a few years past puberty, when their fertility is at it's highest, and they are least likely to have been exposed to diseases/injuries that might compromise her ability to bear healthy children, and nurture them long enough until they are somewhat independent.
I'm getting off track. There is no woman 'within'. It's all us, all the time. The feelings, the behaviours, that we don't express to the outside world, when we think it would make them think less of us.
I do this too. When I step outside my house, I am always wearing my 'man' costume; nothing feminine at all in my appearance. I intentionally developed a very slight swagger to my gait decades ago, so that it's my normal walking style. I carefully avoid ANY feminine style movements, vocal patterns, or behavior. I stand straight up the vast majority of the time, in order to create a commanding presence. And it works. As far as I know, no one suspects anything feminine about me.
When I come home, all that disappears, the 'Man' role that I have been playing is over, no more acting required
For Micki; Sure, there is no rule or law forcing us to stay. But some of us still feel obligated to take care of our family members. It's not only instinctual, but we grow up having familial responsibility drilled into our psyches. When my dad was dying, he made me promise that I would always look after my sister and my mother. The old, 'You're the man of the family now', type speech. And that's very hard to just discard just because it makes us miserable. If it were easy, billions of men would have discarded their irritating wives and children throughout history, leaving them to die. Instead, men still will march into machine gun fire for their society, in order to insure that their families back home, will survive.

Alter ego works for me too - a second self.
Vikky

Very interesting Sometimes Miss.

^ Sometimes Miss wins the internet today.

The conversation seems to be veering off to the "even though I wear a dress I'm really very masculine" line of thought. This is not what I meant at all, rather it is that one's self expression is unique to that individual, whether their behavior is normally considered masculine or feminine or whatever.

For me, I'd have to say "In my early days, yes there was a 'woman within.'" Nowadays, I'd have to say "not so much." Here's why I think it happened.

At first, while I was still young, I tried being the typical male. I'd hang with the boys, do boy stuff, etc.

Anything that I felt was feminine or girly I tried to bury, or at least hide away. Getting rid of it wasn't even a possibility. Those feelings, those (dare I say it?) needs were as much a part of me as my breath.

The end result was that I was splitting myself in half. There was the male presentation that I showed to the outside world, and the female me that only came out in secret (such as some clothes hidden in an old abandoned house that was on the edge of collapsing - and something I'd "borrow" from my sister and hide under my pillow at night).

The different sides seemed to me to be almost become two different people living in one body - and fighting for control.

Eventually, I allowed the feminine feelings or urges to come out and be expressed. They have become blended back into the entirety of ME. There really is no more "He vs. She" in my existence any more. I now understand that I'm a little bit of both genders - and that's that.

The only conflict I still have is that I still wish I could be seen (at least from time to time) as female - but for a number of reasons, that's totally off the table these days .

My two gendered selves are very different, and my wife completely agrees. Tina takes a more classically feminine approach to life. Discovering Tina helped to separate various characteristics of our personalities that were confusing when we thought I was cis-gendered. Our common body doesn't simply change clothes when we shift from one gender to another. The change is a startlingly thorough transformation of mind as well. The differences are rather amazing, actually, including perferred handedness: righthanded as masculine, left handed as Tina.

For myself, my look changes with the hair and make up. my shape changes with forms and pads. My walk changes with the shoes. The nails change how I touch. Ect. So of course my mind changes into its female self. The more I "transform", the more Jessi comes out. Its relative to how complete I am and how I see myself. When I am head to toe and I look in the mirror, my male self kind of fades away and the female takes over. So both male and female are both always there but my senses aid in the female comming out completely. In my mind though the female is there all the time though. I'll see a dress I like or something like that and think, oh that's pretty, or I like her make up for example. But it's not until I'm 100% dressed that the male fades away.

hello Donnalee,
What a fascinating question!
Sometimes cross-dressing is an "expression of my feminine side".
And when I play guitar I am expressing my musical side.
Same person doing different things, sometimes at the same time!
luv J

jacques, I like how you put it! Well said.

Hi Donna Lee :hugs:, It is all Mind over Matter . >Orchid ..O:daydreaming:O..

Science suggests that there's differences between male and female brains. If that's true and given just how varied the forms of the brain can be, foe example, those on the autistic spectrum, is it not possible that many of use are a form of hybrid sitting somewhere along a line between male and female.

Men are tough and macho, women soft and feminine but aren't these to some great extent societal constructs. What were once the preserves of males, construction, trucking, fire fighting, boxing, wrestling, all have been embraced by females.

If theses lines are dissolving why is it such a leap to say that we have that woman in us.

I know that even only partially dressed, skirt, top, forms, while at home feels not the least strange to me. I'm as comfortable dressed like that as dressed in drab.

As Jessie says, heels, nails etc change how we behave. Manerisms change because as I believe, we learn them, not as GG's do by assimulation while growing up but by observation and then imitation. Different process, same outcome.

So do I have a woman inside me, I'll vote yes.

The girl inside is probably a reasonable first approximation of my feminine side. I have had 2 wives who both agreed with that. My first wife told our marriage therapist, ?He doesn?t need a better half - he already has one.? Oh well. Sometimes it is hard to get past the catch phrases to find the real person.

Cheers,
Vale

We are all as different as we are alike. For years now I have been trying to integrate the masculine and feminine aspects of my personality in a conscious way. Sometimes I seem to be succeeding, other times, not so much. I'm not so interested in catering to a woman within. I'm more interested in becoming the fluid, some times womanly, male bodied person that I am on the inside, on the outside as well.

Don't get me wrong; I love pretty clothes, and wear them a lot. But I think we have a tendency to over focus on that, and not on our relations with the people around us; something that the natal women that I so admire seem to do naturally.

Co-consciousness is more fun
Probably the difference between a photo of a car and a 3D model of the car (you can enjoy different aspects of the model car that you can't do with 1 photo)

Having finally meet a trans girl (work mate), I'm Sooo glad I don't have a single personality - being trans and having Dysphoria, is in no way, fun.

I kind of see it as the Opposite----Being ENCASED in a woman, and feeling "all warm and cuddly ;)