dealing with "gender critical"

I have a person who i've known for 15 years, who I feel should know better given their profession. A man, they express transphobic views through the excuse-lens of "gender critical", which appears to be a form of feminism that refuses access and rights to transwomen wanting to be accepted as women.

So, what is our response, what are our views, what have you done to debate, challenge, discuss, address these things? because simply cutting off the person won't help educate or shift those biased against us.

xx Pam

I am guessing on this one, but if your goal is education I would say you need to continue to offer those subtle examples first to soften the mindset. It seems like your associate is reacting in the mindset of hating that which he does not understand. I do know a few people like that and I think tolerance is the best I can do while providing examples of trans positive reinforcement.

Otherwise, your fight or flight seems to be on the money and it is time to let that part of the relationship go...possibly the whole thing.

I continue doing what I have been doing, being me everyday out and about. TERF's, gender critical people and all the other on the edge anti LGBTQ+ people should be ignored. They want attention and they love confrontations, where most of us are just trying to live normal lives. One way to overcome all the naysayers is to get more of us out in the real world interacting with the general public, even if it is for a short day or night outing. There are more of us out there than even any of us could guess, because most are very secretive about this side of their lives. That alone will give us much more positive results than trying to "defend" ourselves on their own home "TERF"! They have the advantage over most of us there. We have the advantage by just being ourselves in public.

The TERF's are a very small, very ignorant and fearful minority. I like the idea of ignoring them. The stridor of their protests say more about them than we ever could, even if their ranks have been recently joined by J.K. Rowling. Yes, that J.K. Rowling.

This is tough. I?m a feminist for sure, but I think the meaning of that word is lost. So many hyper-feminists (as I call them) are not really out for equality, but rather reshaping women and society to their own ideas. I think this gender critical thing is the same thing. Bc to what I consider a real feminist, male, female, trans or whichever doesn?t matter. All they care about is that equal is equal. It?s sad really. I have daughters that I try so hard to teach about a very positive kind of feminism.

Pamela,
Some groups will remain minority ones simply because the majority don't or won't to accept them . Whether they have a valid point or not is irrelevent , some people just like to be different and contentious .

The issue of gender identity is an unfolding story it is going to happen and groups like this will not stop it . We can't totally ignore them but the bias from a small minority group won't possibly affect most of us . One question it does raise is do we have to accept responsibility for how we present ourselves and to a point represent others or is that giving into these minority groups ? Personally when I'm out in the RW I do feel we have to consider we are responsible for our appearance and actions if we wish to be accpeted in society , I won't intentionally hurt or bring discomfort to others .

I was a preacher for so many years and always the purpose of my message was to touch hearts abiliting them to change to a better life based on faith.
Being honest, to impress minds and achieve changes on thinking with words is really useless but a lot of people told me after years that my example had created a ompression onnher minds enough to take in account my words.
Transfoby is deep fear that the same person ignores and if course is created by ignorance. Without wanting to offend, it's the lack of knowledge of real people from the lgbtq community.
After all that said, the only thing you can do is never argue with your friend but let them know who you are then wait patiently but don't count on sure changes or good reactions s, as I said, many of them had an unconcious rejection and to work with the unconcious is really hard and difficult.
Mho.

Devi

Sit it out. Confronting people over their closely held beliefs rarely convinces anyone of anything except that the “other side” are just pushy know-it-all’s trying to force their beliefs on everyone else.

I'd advise keeping your distance if possible. But that isn't always the case. I've found most of the people who hold very strong contrary positions are often forced to think of things a little if you ask them what they are afraid of. Fear drives people in ways that indifference doesn't. Fear can have them build walls or act out in ways that impact others in important ways; physicially, psychologically, socially, financially and politically. If they can bring that TERF or Gender Critical idea into a framework defined by their fears, then there is something to discuss and disprove. But until they open a door to reason and evidence, communication isn't going to happen.

thankyou ladies. I had not had a goal really, I was and I am open to learning different views on dealing with the situation, preferably not ending in separating from a person who I used to mentor, going back 15 years. I know he is compensating for something really big in his psyche, which I'm not going into here, even if he has completely suppressed that aspect. His social group are quite right-wing LGB, which might sound a little incongruous, and perhaps it is. So, they're very pro gender-binary as an XX/XY thing, and protective of radical feminism, seeing trans as "men intruding male privilege into female spaces". We know how wrong this view is, in terms of our emotional-psychological demographic, and also we have to acknowledge that female survivors of abusive relationships with men need spaces away from what they perceive as "men", which might therefore include a woman in a male body, from their perspective.

He lives in an area of social strife, on both racial and religious grounds, with a strong lgb culture also present. He has seen many victims of abuse professionally and comes from a place of empathy there, but he also has this overly binary worldview of a person denying something massive about themselves. so, you can see, it is complex, and it is also worth seeking to find how society does manage the genuine GG fears of men with the also genuine fears of transsexuals needing safe, female-embracing places too.

So, it seems to me, that gradual, rounded discussions are one way of eventually finding out how we do move ahead as a more open and tolerant society.

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Originally Posted by pamela7

..... female survivors of abusive relationships with men need spaces away from what they perceive as "men", which might therefore include a woman in a male body, from their perspective.

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I hear this argument, and have nothing but the utmost of sympathy for survivors of abuse. Trust me, I have sympathy, I was sexually abused at age 5. However, the idea of needing safe spaces away from what they perceive as "men," can be problematic.

First off, what does that mean "perceive" as men? Clearly we are talking about passing privilege. So, if someone takes that stance, then a cute passable trans woman, is somehow different than a non-passing one? And they somehow are entitled to different rights because of their appearance?

Secondly, are we providing safe spaces to everyone who was abused? It is an easy enough idea, if we push the false notion that only men only abuse women. That is not the case. So again, we will provide special rights to special people in special circumstances? So, how about me with my abuse? I was a 5 year old presenting as male child abused by their 10-15 years older female babysitter.

What I find with most people is that they take anti-stances based off of ignorance and fear. The only true way to combat that is education. Unfortunately not everyone is willing to be educated.

The best way to deal with someone that has a different opinion than you really depends on if you are both open to considering the other persons viewpoint. They have to be open to what your saying and you have to be open to their thoughts.... if this is not possible then the conversation is doomed from the start... you both need active listening skills....

Not everyone believes in the crap TRA?s are pushing... me included. The current trans narrative has become so militant and toxic to people on both sides of the argument. Look at the so called trans people that are making headlines... the ?Jessica? Jonathan Yaniv?s, the Karen Whites, the recent attack on JK Rowling and the list goes on.... it?s no surprise that Gender Critical people are gaining in numbers and getting more vocal.

The toxic TRA?s are causing more harm than good for trans people everywhere....

Nadine,

I agree, with safe spaces needed, for healing, and then moving on., regardless of origin. I've worked with my share of abused men also, and heard the horrors. The world is a mess. It does not mean there are grounds for excuses to allow discrimination undercover. So, yes, education, gradual and pacing the perceptual ability of the other.

This is my initial writing to the other person. I suspect the wording might cause a little upset or uproar in fellow TG quarters, but it is well-intended as part of a dialogue with the transphobe. I'd appreciate constructive feedback, not arguments or disputes.

Addressing Non-understanding of Transgender for Someone Willing to Broaden their Perspective

This brief article has emerged after I tried to address what I perceived as a lack of genuine understanding of the situation for a transsexual in terms of feminism and pro-radical-feminism and anti-transgenderism aming partticularly the LGB demographic. Where I speak is from my own experience, and I would be wary of generalising too much. I am also choosing to speak only of the Male-to-Female form of transgenderism, though I might make a few words at the end about the F2M in relation to prejudices.

Starting with definitions, the term "transgender" covers a wide sprectrum covering crossdresser, genderfluid and transsexual.

The crossdressers who I have met in person are sometimes men expressing their feminine, and others who are using that as a cover to engage in homosexual relations - they use the crossdressing as an excuse to pretend to themselves and eachother that they are not actually bisexual, as "it does not count" in their words, in terms of being unfaithful outside of their primary heterosexual relationships. Then there are the drag queens; many self-proclaiming their gayness, openly being men interested in attracting men and expressing a very gay-male perception of the feminine. and there are the DQ?s who are straight men who just like to perform in drag. What I have not come across, in any of these men, is a menace towards women.

The M2F genderfluid folks are people whose sense of personal gender changes by the day or even by the hour. They are already suffering enough with this, and certainly in my opinion present no threat to others, and I can't really see why a genderfluid would want to go to a radical feminist group.

The key problem of non-understanding is about the M2F transsexuals. These are women born with male bodies. They do not see the world as men do. Their brains are wired to show either as female-stereotype or as something different from either gender stereotype?s neurology. Most will go through gender re-assignment surgery, and almost all will be at least on HRT or be waiting to receive HRT. As 99% are on HRT or post-op, they are highly unlikely to have any functional sexual equipment, and their strength-power is down to female or below-female levels. Having a large frame without the associated strength is a genuine disadvantage. A transsexual woman with a Gender Recognition Certificate is a woman. As women, they do not present a male threat to other women.

Moving to the radical-feminist, largely male-hating female demographic, I can understand why they want nothing and no-one of male origin among their ranks or among their groups. I can empathise with people hating a demographic for the actions of an evil minority who have raped and abused, and against a world of genuine male privilege that almost 100% of males can?t even see or acknowledge. But the transwomen get this; they understand. They disidentify with the male-pattern behaviours. They hate it as much themselves, and everything it stands for. They are sisters.

Take the analogy of the black man who converted large numbers of Klannsmen to leave, and understand that reinforcing hate and separation does nothing to heal; it only furthers and continues the pain. Consider that accepting others as they are, consider that the only genuine emotion is love, and that any other emotion is a distortion caused by ancient traumas in origin, and you can begin to understand that the transphobic behaviour is a signal for healing not for reinforcing hate.

[... and that's kind of how I'm trying to give this transphobe some sense of there being no danger to drive his protective urge for the radical femininsts.]

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Originally Posted by Megan G

The best way to deal with someone that has a different opinion than you really depends on if you are both open to considering the other persons viewpoint. They have to be open to what your saying and you have to be open to their thoughts.... if this is not possible then the conversation is doomed from the start... you both need active listening skills....

Not everyone believes in the crap TRA?s are pushing... me included. The current trans narrative has become so militant and toxic to people on both sides of the argument. Look at the so called trans people that are making headlines... the ?Jessica? Jonathan Yaniv?s, the Karen Whites, the recent attack on JK Rowling and the list goes on.... it?s no surprise that Gender Critical people are gaining in numbers and getting more vocal.

The toxic TRA?s are causing more harm than good for trans people everywhere....

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Well, J.K. Rowling “#stands with Maya”, who wrote this about you:

‘“men cannot change into women” and that discrimination against transgender women can “hurt mens feelings.”’ and likes tweets from TERF’s calling trans women “men in dresses”.

So it seems a little stockholm syndromey for a transsexual woman to sympathize with Rowling, but you do you :)

Nikki, You're asking Megan, but really your question is phrased both unfairly and inflammatorily.

I believe we have to empathise with every other person, to understand their view, in order to then bring about greater mutual understanding.

Personally, if a person holds those transphobic views, that's up to them and their loss, but if that person is in a job where their decisions and recommendations affect the lives of transgender people, then clearly they are in the wrong job and the contract was rightly not renewed.

What Megan is saying, is that extremism on either side of the debate is unhelpful; she is not endorsing JKR's views.

Pamela,
I don't wish to sidetrack this but when issues such as this arise , there is rarely if ever any mention of F/M transsexuals . The numbers are rising steadily but I can't help feeling the bigotry and condemnation is aimed squarely at the male in all his guises .

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Originally Posted by pamela7

Nikki, You're asking Megan, but really your question is phrased both unfairly and inflammatorily.

I believe we have to empathise with every other person, to understand their view, in order to then bring about greater mutual understanding.

Personally, if a person holds those transphobic views, that's up to them and their loss, but if that person is in a job where their decisions and recommendations affect the lives of transgender people, then clearly they are in the wrong job and the contract was rightly not renewed.

What Megan is saying, is that extremism on either side of the debate is unhelpful; she is not endorsing JKR's views.

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I have no idea what’s going on in Megan’s or anyone else’s head, but what she wrote was “ the recent attack on JK Rowling and the list goes on”, which is clearly sympathy for J.K. Rowling for being “attacked” by trans activists.

I merely pointed out that for a trans woman/transexual to express sympathy for someone who clearly believes trans women are not women is akin to feeling an affinity for one’s captors, ala stockholm syndrome.

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Originally Posted by Megan G

The best way to deal with someone that has a different opinion than you really depends on if you are both open to considering the other persons viewpoint. They have to be open to what your saying and you have to be open to their thoughts.... if this is not possible then the conversation is doomed from the start... you both need active listening skills....

Not everyone believes in the crap TRA?s are pushing... me included. The current trans narrative has become so militant and toxic to people on both sides of the argument. Look at the so called trans people that are making headlines... the ?Jessica? Jonathan Yaniv?s, the Karen Whites, the recent attack on JK Rowling and the list goes on.... it?s no surprise that Gender Critical people are gaining in numbers and getting more vocal.

The toxic TRA?s are causing more harm than good for trans people everywhere....

---

First off, I'd like you to cite your source for the assertion that "...gender critical people are gaining numbers...". I don't believe that's the case, but that's just my belief. It will change if facts show otherwise.

Next, I'd like to make an historical observation. In the mid-eighties, the LGB movement was consumed by two things, the AIDS epidemic and the controversy the followed the growing activism in the community. It is the latter phenomenon that I wish to speak to. An acquaintance of mine was as flamboyant an out gay man as one could find. He was also brilliant, and card-carrying, in-your-face activist for gay rights, to the point of being annoying at times. Barely a generation later, gay rights had become the rule, rather than the exception. Same-sex marriage became the law of the land in 2013.

All that time, the T community was an active ally to the LGB community, believing that the interests of each group overlapped a great deal. While that is true, large portions of the LGB community have now forgotten, or abandoned outright the T community. That so many would not just walk away from the fight for trans rights, but actually become militant against it is unconscionable. Their excuses, every last one of them, are born of the same fear and ignorance carried by all haters of the LGBTQ+ community. Same goes for the TERF's. Evan a casual review of their grievances reveals ignorance on a grand scale. An entire class of women, who would gladly stand with the feminists, is attacked for reasons that are wholly imagined.

So don't tell me that activism works against us. It may make some, who are used to status quo, more than a bit uncomfortable, sure. That's how it works. The bra burners of the 60's and 70's help bring about significant change in women's rights. The chant "We're here. We're queer. Get used to it!" had the same effect in the latter part of the twentieth century. If trans rights are to make progress, it's going to take some of the same "consciousness raising" noise.

To echo a point from Kelly, some people made the same kind of arguments about the Civil Rights protests of the 50s and 60s....that anything remotely confrontational might somehow set-back efforts. The fact is that without that confrontation, Jim Crow would still be the norm....lynchings would still be the norm.

I think someone said freedom has to be won again by each generation.

Omg a transsexual woman that does not have any issues with what JK Rowling wrote.....

?Dress however you please.?
Nothing here.... move along.

Call yourself whatever you like.
Again nothing here.....

?Sleep with any consenting adult who?ll have you?
Common sense but in today?s day and age it?s a good thing to point out every so often.

?Live your best life in peace and security?
She is wishing everyone happiness and safety....

?But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real??

And this is where people seem to get hung up on.... and I?m not sure why.... as she is correct. Sex is real... and it?s immutable. Transsexual woman like myself are born male (for the most part, not going to get into genetic Anomalies like Swyer Syndrome). We will always be genetically male no matter how many surgeries we have. Are we women...yes we are ?transsexual women? What we are not is female, we will never be XX genetically and that is just biology.

If sex was not real then ?Trans? would not exist. Remember I?m talking SEX (only 3, male, female, intersex) not one of the 57 million genders

Peace out ✌️ I?m sorry i don?t subscribe to the current trans narrative,

Cool. Kudos to you for holding a belief outside the standard narrative. I would like to publicly apologize for projecting a narrative on to you based on my own misplaced assumption and inferences. Mea culpa.

It is inaccurate and disingenuous to frame the nonsense that the woman Rowling defended as speaking about "sex". If you take the time to read what that women has posted, it is pretty clear that she is a TERF and is defending her ignorance by trying to reduce the argument to one about biology. That too, is inaccurate of course, and the court agreed.

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Originally Posted by Megan G

Omg a transsexual woman that does not have any issues with what JK Rowling wrote.....

?Dress however you please.?
Nothing here.... move along.

Call yourself whatever you like.
Again nothing here.....

?Sleep with any consenting adult who?ll have you?
Common sense but in today?s day and age it?s a good thing to point out every so often.

?Live your best life in peace and security?
She is wishing everyone happiness and safety....

?But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real??

And this is where people seem to get hung up on.... and I?m not sure why.... as she is correct. Sex is real... and it?s immutable. Transsexual woman like myself are born male (for the most part, not going to get into genetic Anomalies like Swyer Syndrome). We will always be genetically male no matter how many surgeries we have. Are we women...yes we are ?transsexual women? What we are not is female, we will never be XX genetically and that is just biology.

If sex was not real then ?Trans? would not exist. Remember I?m talking SEX (only 3, male, female, intersex) not one of the 57 million genders

Peace out ✌️ I?m sorry i don?t subscribe to the current trans narrative,

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Sex isn’t nearly as immutable as you think, and biologically, not all of mankind fits into the neat little “xx/xy” genetic box that some would have us believe. There is a whole range of biological intersex possibility, so saying “sex is just a matter of your chromosomes” is completely false.

What about people born with congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH), a disorder of sexual development (DSD) in which a person with two X chromosomes is born with a functioning penis? What if you have androgen insensitivity syndrome, where despite having a Y chromosome, your cells’ unresponsiveness to testosterone gives you a “female” body? What if you have Kenefelter syndrome, which is when you’re born with two X chromosomes and one Y chromosome? Or what if you’re among the 1 in 4,500 people born with “ambiguous genitalia,” many of whom are surgically altered while still infants to fit into the binary two-sex model?

It’s not a false narrative, it’s science.

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Originally Posted by Micki_Finn

Sex isn’t nearly as immutable as you think, and biologically, not all of mankind fits into the neat little “xx/xy” genetic box that some would have us believe. .

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If you took the time to actually read my post instead of becoming triggered you would have noticed that i said i was not getting into genetic abnormalities.

The science behind ?trans? is still in its infancy and honestly may never become a reality.... just like they were looking for a ?gay gene? and could not find anything. Reaching out and adopting studies of genetic conditions that are unrelated to being trans and fit into the intersex category just so it fits your belief is garbage science....

✌️

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Originally Posted by pamela7

So, what is our response, what are our views, what have you done to debate, challenge, discuss, address these things? because simply cutting off the person won't help educate or shift those biased against us.

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To answer this question first I need to know the situation, who is the person?
Not every person I meet is important to me, therefore not every utterance that happens to fall upon my ear is worthy of my acknowledgement let alone debate! In the situation you describe I get the feeling this person is a casual acquaintance or work colleague.
To me this person would rank very low on my "person who matters to me" list.

I did not transition to be a cause. I transitioned to save my life. My transition is 100% about me and my physical, mental and emotional well being
I personally do not have the energy, drive or inclination to try to create utopia. I have enough to worry about with my life and the people in it.
I try to let the world be. In my own life any people such as the one you describe would likely be someone I have not had to endure for at least 8 years now. They and whatever hurtful or ignorant thing they said are either a dim memory or are lost to time.

There is nothing I can say to someone who knows better. Efforts to change a persons closely held convictions are usually fruitless.

You can not forcibly educate those who do not want to be educated! You can refer them to the educational material but they have to make an effort to be educated!
That said, I am out and about in my community! No one has questioned my gender, my right to be that gender or any other gender related topics! No one has even asked me if I am gay, or trans! I am accepted as me and am treated just like any other human being regardless of how I am dressed! All that in NC the "Bathroom" state! AMAZING! Hugs Lana Mae

About 12-14 years ago I was their mentor in psychotherapeutic practice and life. They had made significant life changing discoveries, and then over the years since I saw this darker side emerge, a sense of prejudice probably emerging from their local environment to a large extent, of feeling a minority as a relatively indigenous Brit, but given what I know about them and their largely LGB social circle, I do wonder why so many LGB do seem to be anti-trans, when so many trans are part of LGB! It's like an oxymoron in my world.

If I could just rattle the bones of this thread a little, I have a personal philosophy that if I have the freedom to walk outside in a dress and makeup then others have the freedom to dislike that I do. There is no reliable way to convince someone to change their mind, people have to come to their own conclusions in their own time.

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Originally Posted by AngelaYVR

If I could just rattle the bones of this thread a little, I have a personal philosophy that if I have the freedom to walk outside in a dress and makeup then others have the freedom to dislike that I do. There is no reliable way to convince someone to change their mind, people have to come to their own conclusions in their own time.

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I agree with you that each person can make up their own mind about my life needs and choices. However if that decision is based on myth, misunderstanding, bad or even intentionally incorrect information, I would like the opportunity to at least provide accurate data for them. Getting out and interacting with others, being a normal adult with the only difference being how I express my gender has been helping provide some of that correction. I don't know if I've changed anyone's mind, but I do believe they are more willing now to be an ally to other transgender people and our place in society than they were before. There are a few who have been close to me in the past but I don't expect will change their opinion and it definitely is their right, but at least there is the possibility I've provided an exception to their formerly hard line opinion.

Angela,
It's quite correct what you say but it also means they have the freedom to like you and your presentation , that's mostly what I'm seeing and it does feel good .

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Originally Posted by Sarah Charles

Getting out and interacting with others, being a normal adult with the only difference being how I express my gender has been helping provide some of that correction. I don't know if I've changed anyone's mind, but I do believe they are more willing now to be an ally to other transgender people and our place in society than they were before.

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I agree. Now, I don't believe that anyone is going to have a "light bulb moment" the next time they encounter a TG person, and some people are so filled with fear that they may never give up their hatred, but I am dead certain that every little bit helps. A pleasant smile and ladylike manners are positively disarming. I've seen that simple approach change the atmosphere in a restaurant or other gathering place. Humans are creatures bound by a complex social protocol, one of the quirks of which is how we take our cues from others around us. If you can make the waitress happy, for example, you will notice the other patrons relaxing a bit, not always, but often enough that it is plain to see if you look for it.

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Originally Posted by Megan G

If you took the time to actually read my post instead of becoming triggered you would have noticed that i said i was not getting into genetic abnormalities.

The science behind ?trans? is still in its infancy and honestly may never become a reality.... just like they were looking for a ?gay gene? and could not find anything. Reaching out and adopting studies of genetic conditions that are unrelated to being trans and fit into the intersex category just so it fits your belief is garbage science....

✌️

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Megan,

I'm not trying to trigger you here, and please believe me that I'm arguing in good faith. I've read your post on JK Rowling and it seems to me like you're defending Rowling's position that 'sex is real'. And you went on to state you will 'always be genetically male' (even though I assume you have transitioned and identified as trans) and that 'sex is immutable'. But you also made a very important caveat to say that your position specifically omits 'genetic abnormalities'.

If I'm misrepresenting you here, you can just ignore this message right away, or just correct me. I want to be fair to you by correctly representing your position.

I'm not wishing to argue the science with you, but rather scrutinize your way of thinking about this issue. The argument that 'sex is real', and 'sex is immutable', are both very different arguments and we should not conflate the two. The former demands a degree of subjectivity, while the latter demands a similar degree of objectivity. Sex, depending on how you define it, in this case, genetic sex, as it turns out, is immutable. That means, it cannot be changed, at least not with our current state of technology.

However, just because it is immutable, doesn't mean it doesn't vary within a population (which are what you term the 'anomalies'). Much like how you can't change the colour of the sky (which is most of the time blue), therefore the colour of the sky is immutable (at least we can't change it with our current state of technology), but the sky can also sometimes turn red during a sunset, or turn grey during a rainy day, or turn dark or black during the night.

Are you still with me? Good. :)

To say that 'sex is immutable' and therefore it is 'real', requires a degree of interpretation which is prone to errors. If were to put forth a counter-argument, to propose that if 'sex was somehow mutable' (maybe technology might one day permit us to do so), does that make it any less 'real' by then? Is a blue sky more 'real' than a red sky?

I'm not saying that sex ought to be 'real' or 'unreal', but we ought to focus more on the context here on what Rowling is defending. I don't want to speak for the entire trans-community, but as far as I was concerned, the biggest challenge I faced was trying to overcome what philosophers term 'metaphysical scepticism', which is a line of questioning to deduce or ascertain the existence of a particular 'something'. It is the Cartesian doubt that questions the existence of everything.

Some of the most ardent transphobes don't just argue that transfolks are evil, they argue that transfolks don't exist therefore they aren't 'real'. And that argument had been used to justify a swathe of mistreatment and prejudice. Rowling was very careful to point out that she ISN'T a transphobe by saying that she endorses people's freedom to date who they want, to dress how they want, or even to identify as whoever they want, except... she just won't accept these people as real...? *shrugs, not sure how to take that?*

And here's the real kicker, if I can't argue that I'm real, neither can Rowling.

The REAL problem here isn't about what is 'real' or 'unreal', it is the large scale disavowing and denial of hate and prejudice. Because the truth is this, the sky is as real as you want it to be, and the same applies to transpeople. People have a choice to treat us as 'real people', deserving of rights and respect, and likewise, they have a choice to do the opposite. Instead, they seek deniability by arguing 'I didn't say you were UNREAL, science did', which is categorically false. (Science have proven there to be variation in sex genes within a population, just like how there is a blue sky, and a red sky. It never asserted which one is more real.)

Again, I'm not trying to shame you or trigger you. I'm not arguing that sex ought to be real or not, or that Rowling was right or wrong, I'm just scrutinising your thought processes that's all.

Personally, I wasn't offended by what Rowling said, simply because she doesn't have that kind of power over me. But there are still valid reasons for calling her out simply because we need to make her take ownership for her own prejudice. We need to do that with everyone who perpetuates transphobic rhetoric.

It is OK to be 'gender critical', but take ownership for it. Don't let people get away by sying that 'science thinks you're not real', instead, we ought to replace that with 'I think you are not real, and the science has nothing to do with it.'

S

So I?m at work right now and can?t fully respond but will leave you this to think about.

You come into the hospital and the doctor prescribes you a drug that reacts differently to males than it does females.... if i give you the female dosage of this drug it would not work effectively and we would never get you into the therapudic range and would not cure your issue.... or I could give you the male dosage and we can get you into the proper range and cure you.

You go in for your yearly physical, do you want me to treat you as a female and do a Pap smear or do you want me recognize your birth sex and check your prostate. One route is a waste of time and money and the other could be life saving.

See where i am going. You can do what ever you want but you will always and eternally remain genetically male....

Cheers I?m out.... i have work to do

Yes, in the context of medical care, one's genetic "sex" is important to get right, but to suggest that that fact justifies ignoring the patient's gender borders on malicious. And that disingenuous rationale is precisely the one used by Rowling, the TERF's, and all manner of haters

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Megan G

So I?m at work right now and can?t fully respond but will leave you this to think about.

You come into the hospital and the doctor prescribes you a drug that reacts differently to males than it does females.... if i give you the female dosage of this drug it would not work effectively and we would never get you into the therapudic range and would not cure your issue.... or I could give you the male dosage and we can get you into the proper range and cure you.

You go in for your yearly physical, do you want me to treat you as a female and do a Pap smear or do you want me recognize your birth sex and check your prostate. One route is a waste of time and money and the other could be life saving.

See where i am going. You can do what ever you want but you will always and eternally remain genetically male....

Cheers I?m out.... i have work to do

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Great question, and because I'm a doctor (what you in the US would call an 'Attending'), I will tell you how I'd address the situation.

If a transwoman believes she is pregnant and insists on a pregnancy test, I would take time to explain to her that it is unlikely that transwomen can be pregnant unless they have a womb, Fallopian tubes, and ovaries. It is my duty to explain and educate patients about what they may or may not know. I don't make an assumption that this person is 'crazy' or 'difficult' or 'unreasonable', but I assume they are uninformed or misinformed. So I will sit them down and talk about the birds and the bees.

If they continue to seek a pregnancy test after, I will gently refer them to another doctor.

This is no different to any patient who is requesting the impossible or harmful. For example, the drug addict seeking more drugs, the hypochondriac seeking more investigations, the worried mother who refuses to vaccinate their children and herself, and the transwoman who is seeking a pregnancy test or a pap smear. I treat them all the same.

So with your hypothetical patient, I would make sure the same education would take place, and tell them that certain drugs work differently in males and females (genetically speaking), and let the patient decide for themselves. They could just be uninformed or misinformed. And if they persist with their position, then I will refer them to another doctor. It is as simple as that.

I see where you're going and you are asking the right questions. But I assume nobody has put across to you that transfolks are just like everybody else, some are uninformed or misinformed, some are unreasonable, some are difficult, and some are batshit crazy. Problem is, when an issue about transpeople arise in the media, people like Rowling just simply assume that transpeople are ALL batshit crazy and only wish to label them as such by making comments like 'sex is real'.

You know, when I mean 'sex is as real as you want to make it', I really mean it.

That means, sex (genetic) can be VERY real (or very important) in medical settings, but in other settings, it can be less important or completely irrelevant. The trick here is being thoughtful and contextual with your actions.

The examples you have given makes three important points that may have been taken out of context, so let me break them down for you:

1. All transpeople are like that.
2. Even if not all transpeople are like that, there is still a crazy/unreasonable minority who are difficult to please, and that's unacceptable.
3. And because their stance is unacceptable, the opposite stance must be acceptable, whatever that stance is.
   

And here's the context you are missing,

1. Not all transpeople are like that, only few people are, and that's evidence that they are just HUMAN.
2. Yes, that is unacceptable. But the minority doesn't speak for the entire trans-community (I reiterate myself time and time again that I don't speak for everybody), and there will always be crazy/unreasonable minorities in any group, such as in religious circles, nationalists, environmentalists, heck, I'm sure there are a few crazy scientists out there but they don't speak for the entire scientific community.
3. Just because some transpeople hold unacceptable stances, the opposite stance may be just as, if not more unacceptable.

I'm trying to you give you some context here, Megan.

I am not accusing you of thinking this way, but I want to raise your awareness in case you do, so you can pick this up when it happens. I've had this conversation with countless people both online and in the real world, and I'd reflect on the way they think and realized how appealing it would be to simply 'box people into categories' and leave it at that. Please avoid that as much as you can.

It is arguably easier to put people into categories because that way you don't have to expend precious energy trying to 'figure them out individually'. But when you do try to get to know a person, you'd realize that you would do the same being in their shoes and understand that we're not so different after all.

Believe it or not, I used to think like Rowling too. Until of course, my life and experiences changed me.

Over to you. :)

S