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Hi,
sitting at the workbench &my mind wandered (wandered--it goes away completly at times!) back to one of the few T.V. programs i liked --M.A.S.H.
which led me to wonder -- did the charicter (Corp Klinger i think ) do us any good being portraded as a crossdresser--or was it detrimental to us.....
your thoughts,Ladies......
I never saw the TV show but did see excerpts of the character. My thought is that he was detrimental to CDers. From what I saw, he was a MIAD. But if that's the look someone is going for, then they probably liked his character.
How did the other character's react to him on the show?
I don't think it was either. He was a MIAD and every one knew why he was doing it.
It was commonly accepted back then that most men wanted to evade the draft for the Vietnam war. While MASH was about the Korean war the sentiment about the Vietnam war was more appropriate to how people perceived things.
Except for my very short uncle who was genuinely unable to serve. He also tried out for all the high schools sports and wasn't good enough for any of the teams.
No it didn't, Klinger was trying for a "section 8".
That's basically a discharge because of mental illness.
The mental illness he was claiming to have was crossdressing.
Do you think that helps us in any way?
I do not think that it hurt us at all. He was doing it to get out of the Army and war. Yes, he wanted a medical discharge for being crazy enough to do that in the all male military during a time of war. Not that crossdressing was crazy, but doing it under those circumstances. It was a ploy and it was funny. I enjoyed that show because it also had a lot of adult moments to help us think about something. It was another comic part of the whole show of being in a war zone. I think all of those old crossdressing moments on those vintage TV shows, or whatever you want to call them, helped us more than hurt us. They basically said that we are harmless, which is a great message to get out to the oh so conservative people who really had no idea what a crossdresser was. So they made some fun of us. The message was do not be afraid just because we do this. A small message, but it was there. Flip Wilson, Milton Berle and many others did that too.
Most people fear that which they know nothing about. When they fear it they sometimes react negatively through comments to others maybe even hoping that the others will react the same way. The more they see it the less they even think about it, nor comment about it. Just like the myriad of going out stories here that say the same thing, "No one really paid attention to me!". Since Caitlyn Jenner's great coming out moment so many more people have learned that reassexual people exist and they just might be your next door neighbor too. You know, that nice man with the neat yard, 4 kids, 2 dogs and a stray cat. Her follow on political beliefs are not so good. But her coming out helped us more than most who preceded her in getting that "We are everywhere, even in our most treasured people, world class athletes! " message out there.
No, Cpl. Klinger didn't do us any favors, nor for that matter did comedian Milton Berle from that same era and his exaggerated form of campy drag.
Now, Jack Lemmon and Tony Curtis in "Some Like It Hot"...that's a whole different story...;)
If you think shows like M.A.S.H., Bosom Buddies, Drew Cary Show, Friends, etc. that use crossdressing for laughs are doing no harm, consider this:Quote:
Originally Posted by AllieSF
Attachment 314945
That was me on the right as we watched M.A.S.H. during a "Klinger" episode.
I tend to view crossdressing in the media, the way a politician might.
Any exposure is good for the cause.
Always there will be some who take exception, and others who are supportive; some who ridicule, others who acclaim.
But we are being discussed, which ultimately will be to our benefit.
Corporal Clinger was only crossdressing to get a Section 8 discharge (mentally unfit). It was detrimental to crossdressers because it reinforced the idea that any man who wore feminine clothing must have a mental disorder.
I'm still waiting for the film industry to portray crossdressing in a positive light. Has there ever been a character who was a good husband, father, and asset to his community who also crossdressed???
I'm unable to comment on your first statement, Confucius, because it is against the rules of this website to mention religion. Sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Confucius
But in answertto your second paragraph - Yes. Mrs Doubtfire springs to mind. Robin Williams.
Liz,
One of my all time favourites , casting and story telling at it's best , even dear old Cpl. Klinger . If you think about it , it was a slighty risky piece of scriptwriting , was the character fictious or from an actual true attempt to gain a ticket home ? I would say the character did more good than harm , CDers / TG existed long before those events , it may have been tongue in cheek but at least it brought an important issue into the open . I have to say some great outfits .
Roberta ,
If it was a choice between section 8 and shooting myself in the foot I know which choice I'd make , makeup hurts far less than a bullet !
Confucius,
Does Mrs . Doubtfire fit the bill ? I must admit I'm inclined to agree with you , when are scrpt writers going to write a CDer/TG person into a script who lives a " normal " lifestyle . I guess never because they haven't worked out the differences in the labels and a TS is openly living her chosen life as a woman anyway .
Personally, I think that Klinger actually was a positive character. It was clear that he was angling for a section 8 and he made no bones about it. Rather than just accept the system and go along with it he made his protest in the way he was able. The comedy came in the fact that he was "in your face" and over the top, but the other characters just took it in stride because he was good at his job.
That, and here was a crossdressing character on a popular tv series that lasted far longer than the actual war. Civilians might not have come away thinking they wanted to be like him, but they saw him every week and they saw that he was harmless and decent, and that has to be a good thing for us.
I don't recall Klinger with any great affection but the show itself was very anti-war and the senior characters in it (in terms of rank) probably helped subliminally by referring to the really crazy, awful things that people were doing to each other so that the guy who was merely acting crazy was entirely benign. In other words, it put things in a sort of perspective. Being careful with words here to try and avoid interpreting war as politics!
I was always mortified by the character...not because it was negative (although arguably using gender identity as a way to seek a Sec 8 discharge was hardly positive) but because I was afraid family or friends might make an association with me. I was sure it showed somehow.
I agree with Teresa. It was a character in a TV show that was desperate to get out of the Army. Otherwise I think it was pretty clear that he was a normal guy pretending to be a mentally ill person and Col. Potter didn't buy it for a minute or anybody else for that matter. But Klinger was still respected. Everybody in the show was a bit goofy in one way or another. Klinger perhaps was the goofiest but everybody still did their job. In the Navy during Viet Nam the electronics shop I was in was pretty much the same way. Nobody wanted to be there yet together we were hard workers and when one of the flight trainers went crazy we would divide into 3 groups with 8 hours each to fix it no matter how long it took to find and fix the problem. So, the message to me was that even someone who appears to be a crossdresser but isn't will do their job well when it is necessary even though they may seem like a lunatic at other times. That is a pretty positive statement.
As far as positive shows I see Mrs. Doubtfire, Tootsie, and Victor Victoria and perhaps even the Bird Cage were positive and carried messages that people will tend to be creative to accomplish an end result that is beneficial in the long run. The other message is that we are all different and special in our own ways, even if our behavior might be way different from the dreaded stereotyping that creates discrimination and prejudice against any behavior, good or bad, that deviates from expectation. The real damage comes from the blind adherence to stereotyping.
The interesting thing to me about Mash is that even though the show was on during Vietnam it was set during the Korean war. That would have dated it in the early 50's when attitudes about crossdressing and every other social construct was much more rigid. The late 60's were a time of change that couldn't have been imagined in the early 50's.
I joined the Navy as I preferred the relative security of a ship over that of a rice paddy. The Navy saw otherwise and assigned me to the catapult crew on the flight deck of a carrier where the danger factor rivaled the jungles of Nam but the living accomodations were much more comfortable. There were days like the time an F8 exploded half way down the cat track and showered me with shrapnel that I wish I'd have had access to a dress as I might have considered Klinger's strategy to escape the madness.
I never watched the show but know it was popular and ran for many years. From reading the posts, I understand that the character Klinger wore a dress in an attempt to show he wasn't fit to serve in the military. After the first few years of trying, with a plan failing miserably, one has to wonder if there was more going on. So, if nobody on the show thought he had a mental illness or was unfit to serve, it is difficult to see how that could be detrimental.
Hi Liz
I used to love the show MASH. Typically the media seems to portray girls like us as some sort of comic relief or better yet as a freak in a sideshow (thank you Phil Donahue and Jerry Springer) . The character Cpl. Klinger is no exception. I find it detrimental to the public's acceptance of crossdressing. I just wish the media would portray us as the normal people we are.
Actually the last season or two of the M.A.S.H. Klinger gave up crossdressing. I don't remember all the actual episode details but something happened in the camp and the local Korean ladies raided his dresses, so he just gave it up.
This is another problem I have besides crossdressing being there just because man in a dress is funny. The characters can always just stop. Like the Drew Carry show, they brought in Drew's crossdressing brother for a season of bad CD jokes, then he starts a relationship with Mimi and no longer needs to crossdress.
They either make us look like a joke, a pervert, mentally ill, or that it's a choice we made and we can just stop doing it whenever we want.
Yes, Cpl Klinger was trying for a mentally unfit for military service discharge. That sort of humor among the general population was not totally unknown to the World War 2 generation. I cannot recite a list of movies that had prisoner of war segments with men playing the part of a woman in a POW play. but there were many. I don't think his antics helped or hindered cross dressing. It may have made me feel uncomfortable as it reminded me of something I wish I wasn't in my teen years. And, it probably made a wife of a cross dressing husband uncomfortable as a reminder if she was not on board with her husband's cross dressing. But, in the general population I always felt everyone else viewed it as humor. Now the subject is out of the closet so I don't know what teens and young adults would think of it.
I used to love the show, and watched every single episode. Was Klinger good for us? Probably not. But I try to view things in the context of the times, and it is gratifying to see that we've made so much progress on LGBQT issues. It would probably not be possible to have the same character in a sitcom today. And that is a good thing, IMHO. Seeing M*A*S*H reruns should make us grateful for that.
But didn't Klinger take some pride in his outfits, like he wasn't just pretending to want to look 'pretty'?
I thot MASH was funny. :heehee:
What's even funnier is that was before I began cross dressing. So, I really didn't think much about Klinger one way or the other!:brolleyes:
MASH was more of a documentary portraying the senselessness of war. Look behind the humour and look at the message. Klinger wanted out and didn't care how he achieved it; he wasn't trying to pass as a woman. The other characters all had their idiosyncrasies - just like the members of this forum.
And yes - I shed tears the night Henry Blake died, it was one of the most memorable moments of my TV viewing.
Crossdressing is weird and funny to many people. It isn't because of TV shows either, it just is. MASH was a great show. Comedy with more intellect than most sitcoms.
Klinger was not portrayed as a crossdresser.
Klinger was portrayed as someone who wanted OUT of the Army. He would try practically anything to get discharged and this was one ploy he used.
It became a joke of course as others would comment on his outfits but he was never presented as a crossdresser.
It had no effect on us crossdressers. He was trying to get a section 8 to get kicked out of the Army. The rest of the characters eventually ignored his dresses and hats on Guard Duty or whatever he was doing. Col. Potter was willing to wait him out until he gave up trying and wearing the dresses. I don't think he ever stopped and Potter never gave in.
I never thought of Klinger as a crossdresser , gay , insane or anything . He seemed to be to be a good guy that just wanted out and he was an excellent medical assistant as well as administrator and a pretty fair shot at that .
Everyone there knew he was doing this to get out . Everyone totally ignored what he was wearing ,unless he was being silly about it or sarcastic, and went on about their business. It was almost like a costume . Well it WAS a costume I guess .
I didn't see Klinger having a detrimental effect on me wanting to crossdress even thought I just saw the re-runs or DVD box set. Even when Sydney Freedman first saw Klinger dressed was going to declare Klinger a transvesite and a homosexual for the Section 8 that would follow Klinger into civilian life. Klinger refused saying the was just crazy.
Klinger also tried to eat a Jeep, set himself on fire, glide out of camp while wearing a bathrobe and pink slippers among many attempts to get out of the army.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar%27s_Report
I used to love MASH, not because of Klinger but because of the whole anti-war ethos of it, but I recently watched several episodes and was struck by how dated it was in its attitude to women. I certainly don?t think Klinger did us any favours but the whole show was quite exploitative of women, I think.
MASH was a product of its era. We should not judge it by today's standards. That is how it was, back then. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it.Quote:
Originally Posted by JennyMay
There was a British film called "Just Like A Woman" that showed crossdressing in a positive light and even had a happy ending! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_l...an_(1992_film)
Hi, thanks for that ,had a look on Youtube &found it ,--
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...+julie+walters
That film was really helpful to me.I had been ?out? to my wife for a while but watching that film (on VHS!) helped us talk about it and understand it better. Really dated now, however.Quote:
Originally Posted by Audrey34
To answer the question . I don't think so.
I heard about Klinger and because of that made sure I didn't watch MASH for a long time until it was a non-issue.
Then if you also have seen Monty Python Flying Circus, they guys crossdressed for the sketches all the time. Of course today, that show would never be made. Just happen to be watching the Best of on Netflix.