Unconscious Switching of Traditional Gender Roles

My partner and I have unconsciously come to a sort of "traditional gender role" switch where by I do most of the cooking and cleaning and serving the family while she tends to be more independent and interested in doing her own thing yet is expectant of me to serve. This is totally independent of my crossdressing because it is a 24-7 thing.

We joke frequently that I've become the wife but sometimes it doesn't feel too amusing and I find myself saying "You know, I'm still a man- I just like making sure my family is secure and happy". I tend to reaffirm that when I'm feeling emotionally insecure or am fearful that she no longer respects me.

Has anyone else experienced this and how did you deal with it?

I do most of the cooking in my house, mainly because I'm really good at it and my wife definitely isn't.
It's not role switching though. I've been an enthusiastic cook since long before I met her.

We earn the same, we can both cook, we both clean, we both wash up. It's nothing to do with gender roles, it's purely about sharing the workload that a home creates.

I don't know why people make things about gender. It's simply being modern and not stuck in the 50's.

I cook, I clean, I do the washing ...
I have to; I live alone.
:heehee:

Its been decades since my first marriage, which lasted 19 years. Even in the olden days of the mid 70s, I did my share of household responsibilities as did my ex. I don?t think either of us thought in terms of supposedly traditional gender roles. There was work to be done and we did it.

Back in the early 90's my wife and I made that switch. Had nothing to do with gender roles and everything to do with the fact that the direction of our lives at that time were such that it simply worked better that way than the traditional way. It never changed back. If, underneath it all, gender roles are involved then it goes to show just how flexible gender is which is consistent with modern theories of gender behavior patterns. It has now been found that there is nothing static about gender and there are no deterministic roles set by genetics that must followed. It is more a matter of doing what is necessary. So if gender behavior and gender roles are not fused at the hip, you can blend many of the details of each in ways that suit the circumstances. So, it is entirely possible for a male to identify and behave in a female-like way in some respects and behave in a male-like way in other respects. Same goes for females. In terms of gender, we are all different, we are all flexible, and therefore we are all equal.

My partner does most of the cooking but I do the house cleaning, putting a washing on, hanging out the washing, folding the washing and putting it away.

It just come naturally to me.

X x x

Sorry Becky, but I just imagined you in wig, forms, dress. Pantyhose and heels telling your wife "I'm still a man, damn it". Lol. Sorry.

I do most of the cooking bc I am a.better cook. Kids tell mom to let me cook most of their meals.

I believe there ARE certain gender roles.:straightface:

There r quite a few professional female and male cooks/chefs.

But, I've yet to meet a professional male house cleaner!:brolleyes:

And, a CD dressing up in a maid outfit and doing housework does NOT make u professional!:doh:

Aren't "traditional gender" roles a thing of the past in most modern marriages?

The days of the man going to work and the woman staying home raising children and keeping the house clean ended over 40 years ago.

Marriage is a partnership, my wife and I both work full-time and share in all of the household duties. Although there's a couple that we each kind of do that the other doesn't so much. Like I do the laundry and she does all the bills.

My wife (God rest her soul!) and I basically shared the work load as a team! I did not however learn to cook until the last few years of her life! She said I should learn so that I could keep on going after she was gone, which was said a year or more before she actually passed! Marriage or even co-habitation should be a shared experience! Hugs Lana Mae

I for one am not really sure how you deal with it...

I also cook, clean, wash, and grocery shop while also maintaining everything outdoors. At the start I thought it was more a product of upbringing; my childhood was if you see something that needs to be done do it before you are told to do it. My SO apparently not as much. It does often feel like she has become the stereotypical male and I have been relegated the stereotypical housewife, especially when I'm told to "calm down" or "not to be so grumpy when it's my time of the month" because I've put my foot down to get help clearing stuff that isn't mine off the counter or putting clothes away that have been folded for 6 or more weeks. Honestly, for some of this, I can only blame myself during a counseling session I expressed that I didn't have expectations of any of those things...and assumed they would be done because they needed to be done (yes, I know what you get when you ASSume.) Chores at home are for the home rarely for an individual I believe that to be a modern way of thinking.

These experiences have also nearly lead to a conversation about how odd perception is becoming a reality...but I lose steam and remember she doesn't like that discussion and gets mean about it. Really though do you know how easy it is to swap a drawer from boxer briefs to boy shorts and bikini undies when you are the only one who does the wash?

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Originally Posted by docrobbysherry

I believe there ARE certain gender roles.:straightface:

There r quite a few professional female and male cooks/chefs.

But, I've yet to meet a professional male house cleaner!:brolleyes:

And, a CD dressing up in a maid outfit and doing housework does NOT make u professional!:doh:

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Ummm...ever hear the terms "janitor", "custodian", "butler", "concierge", property manager" or "groundskeeper" etc.? Perhaps not "house cleaner" in the strictest sense of the word, but still service functions designed to maintain cleanliness, order, and upkeep in their spheres of operation, be it homes, properties, commercial establishments or hotels and the like. And in many cases, it is the males who are over-represented in these service functions, especially where the proverbial "heavy lifting" is required.

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Originally Posted by docrobbysherry

I believe there ARE certain gender roles.:straightface:

There r quite a few professional female and male cooks/chefs.

But, I've yet to meet a professional male house cleaner!:brolleyes:

And, a CD dressing up in a maid outfit and doing housework does NOT make u professional!:doh:

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I personally know a husband/wife team whose business is professional house cleaning.

Why would you call that "unconscious". Surely, you didn't just come to at some point and find yourself in that new role. Gradually, I can understand, but unconsciously?

When my wife was still working many days a week and I was already retired I did just about all the domestic chores; cooking, baking, laundry, ironing, vacuuming, etc. Of course, when she was at work I did all that en femme, a la June Cleaver. Now she is retired and still do a lot of the domestic chores. But, alas, not en femme. When she was a stay at home mom she mowed the grass. Once she joked with some of my males friends and showed them the lawn mower I had bought her for Mother's Day. They looked incredulously at me. Until they realized she was joking. But, she did mow the lawn so I would not have to do it when I came home from work. And, our front lawn is on a hill too.

My last wife and I were married 8 1/2 years till we divorced over other things not the cross dressing but she tried to blame that as the reason. Well I raised all that time her 3 kids 2 boys and a girl, they knew I dressed as she told them when we first met. They never had a problem with it as I was in their life and they loved me took them fishing camping the zoo helped with homework talked with them just like they were my own children. I did everything period she was in school full time for a new vocation so I cleaned cooked washed laundry and everything else on top of that when she finished school she wanted me to keep cooking and said I was better at it than she was and the kids agreed making her cry one night. But she worked the last 4 years and I stayed home doing all the housewife, househusband chores and didn?t mind. Kids I think loved it as well. Every other weekend they?d go to their dads two of them anyway and would always come home and say we missed you. Made me feel good too. I think things should be shared in a relationship cleaning cooking etc but just worked out ok in the long run with this marriage.

My wife hated to do the cooking. It is something that seriously impairs her. She is always nervous about food. Not me, I love to cook, so I told her I would do it. Meanwhile she had expected me to do all the yard work. I hate yard work, and well, she kinda like it. She had just expected me to do it. But once we figured out that we work better the other way, you will often find me in the kitchen while she is out cutting the lawn. Fine by me.

Becky, I'm not sure that the responses you've seen here so far are representative of relationships as a whole. It's all very well for people to chant the mantra that "gender roles" are supposedly a "thing of the past," but it's simply not true. They have only been moderated somewhat by current economic conditions, especially women going out to work. No doubt I could dig up more information about current domestic practices if I took the time, but with even a cursory glance the first thing to turn up was this article from Psychology Today titled "Who's Cleaning the House?".

While there is no quantitative data in the article--and roles in marriages vary widely with individuals, as they always do--it does make it clear that women on average still do significantly more "housework" than men, in some cases a lot more. So "gender roles" in this sphere have not disappeared. They have only converged somewhat.

But to start with, what precisely is "housework"? Too often it seems to be restricted to a female definition of "housework": viz., the triad of "cooking, cleaning, and laundry," the jobs women more often do. Much of the time the jobs men do far more often are excluded from this equation: car maintenance, plumbing, electrical and other repairs, painting, mowing the lawn and other yard work, shoveling snow if applicable, exterior jobs in particular. If the gutters are clogged, it's usually a man who gets up on the ladder to unclog them. Even taking out the garbage is more likely to be seen as a "man's job."

So why is there this difference? The article points out that it's not just "men" but women as well who are more likely to see these tasks as belonging to their respective spheres. This is clear from certain facts the article presents. It states for instance that for many men,

Tasks like landscaping and repairs are acceptable, because they affirm their manliness and personal identities. Other tasks, such as cooking, cleaning, and laundry, are often seen as women?s work.

It goes on to say that "cleaning toilets" is often included in this perception of "women's work." But it also points out that

Many wives want to control the housework, because they see the home as their territory. Some see housework as a way to confirm their identities as homemakers, and to express love and support for their families.

So the tendency to see certain territories and tasks as "affirming gender identity" is equally true for men and women alike! Then it goes on to say:

Additionally, because the cleanliness of a home reflects on the wife and not the husband, she may have higher standards on how to do things. It?s probably safe to assume that if his wife thinks he?s inadequate as a housekeeper, that?s something he can live with.

I'm sure that's true. But why would the cleanliness of a home reflect more on a woman than on a man?

Because the cleanliness of a home is more embedded in women's instinctual standards than it is in men's. We've all heard how many men living alone can tolerate living in a mess, even with underwear strewn on the floor in some notorious cases. Women by comparison tend to like a clean, tidy home. Most men sure do appreciate the way a woman can keep the home so nice. But with a few exceptions, would they care about just a little dust and dirt? I've still got a plaque on the wall that my wife and I both loved. It reads: "My house is CLEAN enough to be healthy... and DIRTY enough to be happy!" A sticker on the fridge reads "I cleaned my house last week--sorry you missed it!"

It's women more than men who are motivated to put so much effort into cleanliness, and it's a standard by which women more than men judge both themselves and one another. Whoever heard of a man going into a lady's home, drawing his finger across the mantelshelf and turning up his nose, saying "Ugh! DUST!" That's only the kind of thing certain women do!

Women can be just as territorial as men in their own sphere. Not only in the home, as the article says, but in child care too, which the article doesn't even mention. That too "affirms women's identity" as mothers and gives them control of children, while many fathers can be kept out of it by the process known as "mothergating." That can include claiming that men are too ignorant to know how to "do things right" with children. So my point is that women, despite their complaints, are for the most part, just like men, doing these jobs because they want to, not because anyone "forces" them to. And just as men can feel threatened by women doing "men's work," women can feel the same about men doing "women's work"--or more to the point, being good at it!

My only real complaint with the article is that it's not completely gender-balanced. It points out the "advantages" many men get from "affirming their manliness" while rejecting certain tasks like "cleaning toilets," implicitly castigating men for doing so. While admittedly citing the advantages many women get from "affirming their womanliness," it fails to mention how many women do the same with respect to "men's jobs." "What, me, get up on a ladder? That's dangerous! Or get on my back under a car to change the oil filter? That's a dirty job, a man's job!" So what price "cleaning toilets"? Of course, I am not claiming "all women" are like this. Far from it! But far more women than men consider these to be "men's jobs."

Why these differences between women and men? Of course they're a long way from being absolute. They are tendencies only toward one thing or another. It's a matter of quantifying the difference: how many men or women do this or that? Here, certain factors can be discerned.

A woman's tendency to see the home as "her territory"--which includes "taking care" of it--is analogous to a female bird's instinct for building a nest--a nest for the young. A place where she, as well as the young, feels protected and well ordered, with everything "shipshape"--even if that's a "masculine" expression! Women often feel an "urge" to clean and put their "nest" in order, especially during pregnancy. Now in avian society it's the job of the male especially (though not exclusively) to provide physical protection, by luring predators away from the nest. In human society things are the same in some ways, and different in others. Like birds, it's still chiefly the job of the male to provide physical protection from enemies and other predators. Unlike birds, it's also chiefly the job of the male to provide physical protection from the elements in the form of the exterior structure of a house that holds the whole thing together.

But apart from that, one difference is that women are still motivated to take care of the inside of a house, while men take care of exterior matters. It's men who mostly do the job of painting the outside, say, while on the inside, the environment "protected" largely by the work of men, more women take care of "interior decorating"--or direct it at least--along with what women categorize as "housework."

I can't (all right, "won't"!) resist digressing on that topic to an anecdote that still made me laugh, along with my wife, after more than forty years. When we went to buy carpet for our first house, the salesman turned to me and described the "practical" matters of the price, quality, and hardwearing nature of the carpet. Then he turned to my wife and his voice changed abruptly to a "feminine" note as he assured her that he was also a "qualified interior decorator" who could naturally advise her about colors, textures and other aesthetic aspects of her preferences.

Anyway you get the idea. As a trend, "men take care of the outside, women of the inside." That's one difference. So women vacuum the carpet, while men mow the carpet of grass we call a "lawn."

Another is that "women work with soft materials, men with hard materials." So women work with fabrics, launder the clothes--and often mend them, even today--while men fix the plumbing and do the carpentry.

Similarly, women do more "social" things, while men do more "physical" things. This is a fundamental difference underlying "gender roles," and can be seen in the fact that cooking, laundry, and child care too, regarded as "women's work," are more intimately related to caring for the needs of people directly, while exterior maintenance, repairing gadgets, plumbing, car repairs and so forth, seen as "men's work," involves "mechanics" and taking care of things, physical objects.

Another difference is that "women do delicate work, while men do rough work." This is a real, physiological difference. Women's fine motor skills are typically better than men's. In the old days, when magnetic core memories for computers needed threading together, they would typically employ only women for this delicate task. Meanwhile, men do more tasks calling for brute strength.

Yes, admittedly there are exceptions to everything. Watchmaking for instance has always been a male tradition, as delicate as it is--though again, it does involve "hard" rather than "soft" materials. Still, things like sewing, knitting and crochet work are typically "female," while driving screws, hammering nails and humping heavy stuff around is typically "male" work. So too is anything dangerous. If you're sewing, the worst you can do is stick a needle in your finger. That's not even as bad a "hitting a nail on the thumb," let alone falling off a ladder and breaking your neck.

Then there are the unseen and unappreciated gender differences, the "subtle" ones. In particular, the different pattern of men's and women's work and motivations.

Men's work tends to be more "intensive." Men are likely to "focus" on a task more exclusively than women do. And they often work harder at it. Afterwards, they may need a longer period of rest to recover.

Women's work tends to be more "extensive." They're doing this and that all the time. But it isn't necessarily as hard or demanding in a physical sense, and they may not be concentrating on it in the same way that men do. "Child care" can be timeshared with other activities. It's well known that women, more than men, have a facility for "multitasking." So a woman may be ironing or folding clothes while entertaining herself by watching TV at the same time, while a man is totally concentrated on the task at hand.

The influence of "gender roles" is also clearly visible in the differences between the kinds of paid work women and men tend to choose outside the home, as well as how they divide their time between home and outside work.

How about the bottom line? In a way, that too is right there in the article:

...men and women have different ways of defining what?s fair. Men look at the total picture. They consider everything they do in their marriage. They throw in the amount of money they make and time spent at their jobs or with their kids. [...] Women tend to focus only on the amount of housework that has to be done...

And while this article doesn't say so, other studies have shown that the total time men spend on work of all kinds, both paid work and unpaid chores around the home, is on average more than the time women spend, typically by a couple of hours a week.

Anyway if so many respondents here claim to be doing just as much or even more of that traditional triad of "women's work," cooking, cleaning, and laundry, that's not in line with what the article is telling us about how women on average still do most of those particular chores. I'm tempted to speculate that because our members are likely to have more "feminine" traits than the typical male, you may not be getting a response typical of the population as a whole.

Still, that's not really important, when what matters is not "who does what," but whether the individuals involved are happy and comfortable with their respective roles. If you're uncomfortable or insecure in your role, that's a matter for concern.

It's not that it's "unmanly" to do what has more often been considered "women's work." But for one thing, is any of this about what you don't do, rather than what you do do? Are there typically "masculine" tasks you perform that affirm the male side of your identity in a rewarding way?

Even more important than that, I would say, and irrespective of "gender roles," is the need for each partner to feel uniquely competent in some sphere or other. in ways the other partner depends on. The knowledge of "indispensability" to a partner brings feelings of security in a relationship. Again, this doesn't have to be about "gender-linked" skills, though it often is. My wife did most of the cooking because she was good at it, which everyone acknowledged, though I would often help her by chopping vegetables or measuring things. I also washed the dishes after a major meal, but those are less skilled tasks. HollyGreene on the other hand does most of the cooking, being better at it, so it doesn't have to be "gender-linked." Either man or woman may be better at doing the finances. I've heard that in Japan it's women who more typically do that job.

But your girlfriend sounds pretty smart, and may be just as competent as you are at a lot of things. Do you have the feeling that you "could easily be replaced"? (That reminds me of an ironic little story that Fredric Brown wrote.)

Of course, when it comes to insecurity, you've mentioned elsewhere that you don't think your girlfriend really likes your crossdressing (which in view of her support may or may not be true), and she had trouble with a previous boyfriend who did it. That can leave you feeling unsure of her esteem in your "female role."

Finally, you said she "she tends to be... interested in doing her own thing yet is expectant of me to serve." This suggests what you may be lacking is overt appreciation for what you do. That of course is a complaint that many women have also: "lacking appreciation" from their husbands for what wives do for them and for the family.

If you're feeling insecure for any of these reasons, it's best to talk with your girlfriend and try to get some reassurance.

Becky,
To me it made perfect sense after I closed my business down , my wife was still out working so I made sure she came into a meal on the table . I took on all the cleaning and laundry duties , I was obvioulsy still doing the male duties of mowing the lawn and finishing off DIY jobs . Eventually my wife beagn to resent the shift in gender roles , she felt excluded from the normal female role also she knew I was partly enjoying it as I was dressed some of the time .

Like others now I'm glad I took over those roles as I now live alone and can take care of myself , I often feel the bottom line was they expected me to go running back with my tail between my legs because I would be incapable , I've proved them all wrong in a big way as I've also done it as Teresa .

Marianne,

Funny, many of the attributions of women's traits and roles in your discussion of the article apply to me :) It's not something I was raised to be- I grew up in a pig sty and had to learn about household cleanliness and a good work ethic on my own. Of course it helped that minor OCB kicked in in my late teens :)

At the end of the day, I think what it really boils down to is I'm Type A who is susceptible to bouts of deep insecurity while my GF is extremely Type B. It's a tough combination in a relationship, believe you me.

On a lighter note, I had some great me time today cooking dishes with vegetables from our garden (I'm still learning how to cook) while my GF went off and did her own thing for a few hours. It really centered my after a "so boring it's almost stressful" week at work. Then we came together and enjoyed the rest of the day and evening.

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Originally Posted by Marianne S

So my point is that women, despite their complaints, are for the most part, just like men, doing these jobs because they want to, not because anyone "forces" them to.

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That is generalization by a man of what women supposedly think. Have you asked women in your entourage if they confirm your theory?

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Originally Posted by Marianne S

Women often feel an "urge" to clean and put their "nest" in order, especially during pregnancy.

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Contrary to birds, humans have the advantage of being able to think their education and social roles. If some people are still envisioning gender roles as you describe them, this is the product of an education. With all the processing power of the human brain, it's a sorry situation if we settle for just following birds' standards in life. We are responsible for our gender roles, not Nature. So your observation that we do what birds do is the product of an education. You are merely observing the results of that formatting and taking them as biological facts. In a higher species such as ours (intellectually speaking) they are rather social constructs. You actually agree with that last point when you resent the fact that some women won't trust men with baby care.

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Originally Posted by Marianne S

When we went to buy carpet for our first house, the salesman turned to me and described the "practical" matters of the price, quality, and hardwearing nature of the carpet. Then he turned to my wife and his voice changed abruptly to a "feminine" note as he assured her that he was also a "qualified interior decorator" who could naturally advise her about colors, textures and other aesthetic aspects of her preferences.

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This confirms (if need was) that sales persons aren't there to make the gender roles statu quo evolve. At least, not four decades ago.

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Originally Posted by Marianne S

Another difference is that "women do delicate work, while men do rough work." This is a real, physiological difference. Women's fine motor skills are typically better than men's. In the old days, when magnetic core memories for computers needed threading together, they would typically employ only women for this delicate task. Meanwhile, men do more tasks calling for brute strength.

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Actually, for magnetic-core memory, somebody at NASA simply observed that they had smaller hands. But apart from that, men do countless "delicate works". They professionally or privately sew, cook, paint, draw, create jewels, examine vaginas, etc. I once fixed a magnetic-core memory thread that had slightly slipped from its wrapping pin on an IBM 3803-compatible tape controller. Not what you'd call rough work.
Or maybe your point was that male can do both, and females can't do rough. Maybe you will be interested in what females do in a farm, or how care workers shift impotent bodies of several hundred pounds around a mattress when doing the bed or the personal hygiene of patients.

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Originally Posted by Marianne S

It's well known that women, more than men, have a facility for "multitasking."

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"Well known" by whom and where/when? Without such info, I can only read this as "not backed up by evidence".
Brain plasticity works at all ages. If you're not good at multitasking today, you can be in a few weeks. Nothing genetic here. For the record, I am in a job where I constantly multitask, and am male. Conversely, I suspect that female sewers or surgeons have the ability to focus on the task at hand.

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Originally Posted by Marianne S

And while this article doesn't say so, other studies have shown that the total time men spend on work of all kinds, both paid work and unpaid chores around the home, is on average more than the time women spend, typically by a couple of hours a week.

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Could you share some links to these studies?

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Originally Posted by Marianne S

Anyway if so many respondents here claim to be doing just as much or even more of that traditional triad of "women's work," cooking, cleaning, and laundry, that's not in line with what the article is telling us about how women on average still do most of those particular chores. I'm tempted to speculate that because our members are likely to have more "feminine" traits than the typical male, you may not be getting a response typical of the population as a whole.

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I'm tempted to think that for the vast majority of crossdressers (not trans people) the gender roles apply exactly the same as in the general population. Many posts here are testimony to this. When the facts don't support the theory, maybe the theory is simply wrong.

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Originally Posted by Marianne S

The knowledge of "indispensability" to a partner brings feelings of security in a relationship.

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The knowledge of "independency" to a partner brings a good feeling of security too as relationships don't all last.

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Originally Posted by Marianne S

Watchmaking for instance has always been a male tradition, as delicate as it is--though again, it does involve "hard" rather than "soft" materials.

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You were right...
...until 1690, where the first women were allowed in Switzerland to work on watches (before this date, they were simply forbidden to, so no "male tradition" here, but power abuse).
At the end of the 19th century, one third of the Swiss watch workers were women. Since 1920, it's been half of them (and with no quotas involved).
I have a link but it's in French (Swiss watchmakers are of French tradition and came originally from France, Jura region, they moved to Switzerland because of religious issues). You can PM me if you want it.
I don't understand this "soft" and "hard" materials theory. The examples abound of female workers building "hard" things with "hard" tools (especially during war where men had no choice but to finally trust them with that). Car tires are soft. Knitting and sewing needles, knifes are hard. Really, it doesn't work. Again, when the facts don't fit with a theory, the theory is probably just wrong.

Becky, my dad who was as manly as they get, did all the cooking and cleaning.

I sometimes te my wife she has both a husband and a wife. The best of both worlds. She's still not very receptive, as if my femininity is a threat to hers. But truthfully, in our marriage, she is Ellen de Generis and Im Portia de Rossi. I can't tell her that, either.

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Originally Posted by Robertacd

Aren't "traditional gender" roles a thing of the past in most modern marriages?

The days of the man going to work and the woman staying home raising children and keeping the house clean ended over 40 years ago.

Marriage is a partnership, my wife and I both work full-time and share in all of the household duties. Although there's a couple that we each kind of do that the other doesn't so much. Like I do the laundry and she does all the bills.

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:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

And a :thumbsup: to everyone else in this thread who voiced similar opinions! :)

To Marianne S, sorry but I think you just want there to be distinct and separate gender roles. Why is that. It's true that after WWII gender roles diverged significantly, but this only lasted a few decades - (gender roles had narrowed when women had to help with the war effort by working in factories). But beginning in the 70s, women went back to the work force in droves and now virtually all women have outside jobs so the family can keep up with the cost of living! The only real differences between males and females are their chromosomes and resulting sexual characteristic differentiation.

I think it makes sense for each person in a marriage to do what he or she does best or likes to do. There's no reason to be constrained to "traditional gender roles". We no longer have the husband going to work each morning wearing a suit and tie while the wife stays home wearing a dress and heels cooking and cleaning.

My wife and I share all aspects with no male/female gender role assignments. It?s all totally conscious and understood. The only thing good about COVID-19 is while sequestered, I dress everyday, which I love. I?m blessed with a supportive wife. It might be time to sit and discuss your feelings and hers to gain some understanding and compromise to relieve you of your insecurities.