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If it is genetic, how is the trans gene passed on. If you don't marry and have kids, the TG gene doesn't get passed on. To the extent that that's true, being TG should die out.
Another thought question, how many TGs have TG offspring? Even two or three generations away?
If you are suggesting that the TG gene would did out because of natural selection, I beg to differ. Run a poll and see how many members have children.
Genetics is certainly an avenue worth exploring, but we've a very long way to go before we k is enough to attribute conclusively. Meanwhile think on how undifferentiated we are until puberty. Both sexes have nipples. Why? Or more to the point, what other physical attributes might we have that might have their gender bit flipped by the right stimulus?
Mine you, I not suggesting that any particular explanation has more merit. I am simply humbled by the elegance and complexity of the engineering that went into us.��
Is it transcendental, accidental?
This line of thinking will drive you mental!
Genetic translation in isolation?
Won't someone explain my malformation!
(best read to a jaunty, music-hall type tune!)
Steffi,
Whatever you choose to call it maybe consider in an embyo's development not everything goes according to the rules as we are so complex . Not only that the mother's diet and health can affect it . Correct cell growth is dictated by many variables a lack or excess of certain chemicals can alter how that cell performs but perhaps not it's growth . Somewhere in that mix is gender development and sexual assignment , it isn't surprising we are all different . Being TG is no one's fault , it happens , that is what society has to acknowledge along with being gay etc .
Funny when we cleaned out my fathers belongings after he passed we found a couple sheer red baby doll nighties hanging in his closet! So there might be a link there. And my son is gay... not TG and not very feminine...
Same with my son, Karren
Actually, sometimes it is; I'm living proof of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teresa
But to admit that, would apparently give the haters ammunition to insist that it's ALWAYS someone's fault, and that it could be prevented or possibly, reversed by the same or similar psychological mechanisms that caused it in the first place.
Not all of us are born this way. Like most, however, I assumed that because I learned that I wasn't, then perhaps most others might not be, either.
I've since learned differently; most here don't have any history of childhood sexual abuse, nor had a parent and others who did things which frequently reinforced the concept that I was not really a male, and certainly weren't groomed to become a girl through their childhood.
It's mixed bag; some genetic, some hormonal during pregnancy, some conditioned into it. Or any combination of those. The shame imposed on us by society for not being 'all male, all the time', could suppress our memories of what may have happened to us when we were young, so it's possible that there are lots of us who don't remember what might have influenced us during whatever time we may have been exposed to the machinations of people who would benefit by having us believe that we are something that we're not.
I understand. It took me decades to figure myself out, and then accept it; and, even though I did, the desire to crossdress and feel like I'm supposed to be, and behave as a female, still lingers to this day.
I understand that it wasn't my fault. But having been brought up with that mantra of never, never ever be a sissy (because being a male and behaving like a girl is an absolute NO NO) is so ingrained into my mind, that there will always be a some feeling of being responsible for not being able to hold back the urge, and not being able to prevent myself from doing what I know so much of society thinks of as a terrible, awful thing. A little bit of shame will always remain.
The only to wipe it out is when all mankind is dead.
First of all, most CDs, according to surveys, are heterosexual (married heterosexual, to boot). That means if being TG is genetic, the TG "gene" will be passed on.
Second, if being gay was genetic, then in theory it would not be passed on. Of course that neglects that sexual preference does not prohibit sexual reproduction.
In the end, I have no idea why I wanted to put on a dress when I was a young boy. It doesn't really matter whether I inherited it or learned it (the classic "nature versus nuture" debate), I just know it's something that has always been a part of me.
Suppose it doesn't matter?
@Karren and @Jocelyn - my eldest son, too!
Lexy,
Great reply.
I don't know if it is genetic or not. I wish I did. In part I feel like it is an addiction. Once you start, you get hooked and once you are hooked, it grows. Once it grows it overtakes your life. I have been hooked for 50 years. I have more women's shoes than men's. I have a closet full of dresses, skirts and blouses. I would guess more than my wife has. I accept myself as I am and now rarely worry about what others think about us. There are a lot of biased people in this world.
And I know a sissy or two whose life would be much less fun and enjoyable without that little bit of shame, so I am kinda sorta of happy for then that is a part of who they are :)Quote:
Originally Posted by sometimes_miss
Supposing it was genetic, and passed down a bloodline, and it was causal to be, as you say: "TG," it could potentially be dying out, we could actually be wiping ourselves out with modern transition medicine.
Historically, these supposed "proto-TG's who passed down this um, gift, through blodlines, bred. Because here we are. Earlier generations would not have the benefits of the modern wonderful medical stuff we have today, like HRT, they would have bred much more than TG people do today. Not every generation would have been hit with a 'bloomer' and it may stay hidden and even then, I might believe that even a full -time TG several generations back still bred occasionally with no medical control on their biology.
Then there's the generation we live in, where many many breed, then transition.
Increasingly, we have kids getting more and more into their transitions younger and getting puberty blockers and stuff..are gonna put a dent in the numbers, our numbers, genetically speaking. (if we are a genetically defined subgroup.)
The future utopian generation where "no TG kid gets left behind," presumably could be the last! But in reality that ideal won't happen, and there wiould always be those still passing the gene on in lesser numbers. It seems there will definitely be a lessening of some degree.
I know many people preserve their genetic material when they transition, particularly if they have never bred. I wager almost as many never really get around to using it, at least in this generation, because there are lots of us hitting it older, and lots who just never get to a place where they can have kids 'produced' from this material.
I would hope and pray, supposing that it is genetic, that we're not a bubble in the evolutionary economy, about to burst and die out by the process of our own progress. :O
But I like to believe it's a bit weirder than that.
(Now my last line of my signature is freaking me out and making too much sense.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JocelynJames
Did your wife ever play the genetic card to say him being gay was somehow your fault? Mine did once.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelli_cd
Karren,
I think many of us could live with those fears . I look back when my situation started at 8-9 years old , my grandson is now 9 I do think sometimes if the same thing happens to him who will get the blame ?
Teresa... My grandson is 3... and I keep steering him away from anything feminine. I would love to live long enough to teach him how to play ice hockey.... not crossdressing....
I have a half sister who has an FTM trans son. So - I'm leaning towards the idea that there is at least a bit of genetics involved somehow.
No, as my X wife never knew about Joss, nor does my son.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karren Hutton
Genetics is definitely involved. ALL behavior has at least some kind of toe hold in genetics. There is no doubt about that. Furthermore, it has been discovered that there are at least 3,534 genes out of our total of about 20,000 active genes that are involved in some way in generating our gender behaviors. And 44 of those genes have been identified to exhibit combinations of certain micromutations that are quite unique to transgender people. Otherwise, we are genetically like everybody else. (Don't let the word "micromutations" bug you - they are quite normal, very common, and for the most part have no effect on anything; but some do.) Some of these micromutations are inheritable which is why it is well established that gender variance tends to run in families, but not everybody gets the right combination of micromutations and so there is a far better chance of a descendant of a person who carries the combinations will not inherit them than will inherit them. It is all probability driven.
All this said, these mutations probably do not cause the behavior pattern but may set up a predisposition to exhibit the behavior IF experiences in their life act to make the predisposition active. Most gender predispositions, if they actually exist, are apparently activated prior to 5 years old, but some can go for many more years before the experience threshold is reached that flips the switch to on. In other words, the genes containing the correct micromutations, need to be turned on by some event in the person's life and once turned on they cannot be turned off. It is also possible that the different degrees of gender variance and the differences in behaviors are due to a person having some of the micromutations while not having others.
An example of a predisposition: your handedness is a predisposition controlled by 35 genes and it is activated in the first few months of your life when you are reaching for everything. The predisposition is turned on if the hand it is "attached" to is most successful at hitting the target. If the predisposition is for right handedness and you are born without a right hand the predisposition is never activated and you become left handed. Thus, having a predisposition for handedness makes sure you are proficient no matter what your birth condition is.
How do these genes work? The may act to create certain neural patterns in the brain that drive gender behaviors of all kinds. But the exact combination of "gender genes" one has sets up a basic pattern that is then adapted to fit into your life.
THERE IS A GREAT DEAL MORE RESEARCH NEEDED TO TIE DOWN A LOT OF LOOSE ENDS, BUT GENETICS IS INVOLVED IN GENERATING OUR FEELINGS AND OUR TENDENCY TO BEHAVE IN A "CROSS-GENDER" FASHION TO SOME EXTENT OR EVEN COMPLETELY OPPOSITE EXPECTATION. IT IS NOT A DEFECT - IT IS WHO YOU ARE.
I found my father’s stash once.
I vote for genetics.
My father had 2 brothers. One had 1 son and the other 2.
We all had different friends, experiences, parents and upbringings. The other 3 are gay and well, you know what I am. So yes, it must have something to do with genetics.
Karren,
I admit my bucket list includes skiing with my grandsons , who can say ??
I'm not sure we need to steer them in that way or we should , maybe too many of us have been stuck in that male straightjacket in the past !!
I hope I can still teach all my grandchildern something even as Teresa , again only time can tell but I live in hope .
If it is, no idea where I got it, but I don't want to pass that genetic combination down to another generation.
My wife second cousin is a transgender man. His sisters says all his life he felt he was male and acted accordingly. There was no nurturing. It just happened. My brother's non-biological granddaughter from birth was all male; pushing toy trucks in the mud, electric trains, etc. No nurturing. That is who she is. It is not known which way she is going to fall off the fence yet. I suspect it is a combination of genetics and hormones. Unlike some/many on this forum I did not grow up with sisters or female cousins. I had no use for girls; totally boring creatures. Ignore them. Until puberty. Then I lusted after unobtainable starlets and young women. I also discovered the urge to wear my mother's clothing on occasion. ???? What a life! Self hatred. Disgust.
I say hormones has something to do with it because I did cease any thoughts of dressing while in the military. It was raging hormones of self preservation. I think male hormones flooded my systems. Under more saner surroundings the "her" side has been let out. I am one of those who is happy as a male and is not longer trying to stuff "the woman within" out of the picture. Several years ago I wrote a condolence letter to the wife of a cousin who never met me or probably did not know I existed. Her husband, my cousin passed away from cancer. She called her husband's brother. He asked to read it. He told me, where he lives (south) the letter is considered "soft." "Soft" as expressing condolences in a manner a woman would. The letter seemed natural to me. So, on the one hand I am trying to stay alive in a combat situation (Nam) and on the other "Stephanie" is writing "soft" letters of condolences. Go figure!
I think how I have functioned has been enlightened and an asset. The dressing part has been a pain in the ass.
I have a transgendered child (MtF) who is presently in transition, and a born-maie non-binary child. Looking at this single datum that is our family, I would have to say it's genetic. But that is anecdotal. It could be just a weird coincidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sometimes Steffi
hello Steffi,
I think it is definitely genetic - women obviously think we are superior partners for making babies!
luv J
My situation was a bit different as I believe my upbringing and medical condition during childhood, made me who I am.
But I have several like minded friends whose fathers and siblings are TG, to one extent or another.
I do believe, as others suggested, genetics plays a big part.
I've always wondered why me a 5-7 year old would want to wear women's cloths. It's never bothered me that I do, to this day I've never understand why I do but I love it.
I can easily understand later when I became sexual, women and women's cloths are so hot but I was doing it when I was 100% innocent to sex and lust for women. I've wondered if anyone else in my family might be a dresser and really don't think so although I doubt any of them would guess I do.
In my close family of one sister and two brothers I'm hands down the easiest to get along with and most thoughtful, wonder if that would have any bearing on liking the feminine side of my personally. Must not seeing how my sister can be somewhat nasty and she a female, haha.
I couldn't help responding to that comment. My wife and I have "messed around" at times when I was "dressed." Or half "dressed" anyway. And once she confessed to me that she thought our daughter was conceived on one of those occasions. My wife called her "Lori's baby." What a compliment!Quote:
Originally Posted by jacques
Genetics, epigenetics, what the heck. Not forgetting intrauterine "accidents" of various kinds, regardless of genes. In particular the hormonal environment in utero affects the development and gendering of the brain. Any kind of variation can happen. After all, Darwin's whole point was that evolution depends on random variation. Otherwise there would be no "evolution." We would all be viruses at best, just a fragment of RNA; not even "DNA." And variations don't necessarily die out. Many of them are keep reproducing, possibly for precisely the reason Jacques was quoting above (hee hee!), and sometimes for more complex reasons involving survival benefits to collateral lines of inheritance. Then too, some of the same variations keep cropping up randomly again and again, like Down syndrome for instance.
Anyway the bottom line for me is that if I've got some "feminine traits" that make me a crossdresser, I'm far happier to know I was born with them, through one physiological mechanism or another. Would I rather not have been? It's too late to say that now. I'm just "me," and I've nothing to complain about in the end, though it was awkward having to hide my crossdressing in my teens, among other handicaps. ("Handicaps" can be anything including having to accommodate two wardrobes instead of one.)
Still, I have to recognize that compared with meeting the human norm ("straight," "cisgender" and other newfangled terms for old and timeless things), being a crossdresser, still more for anyone transgender, or gay for that matter, is a "tougher row to hoe." How much worse it would be if we had to torture ourselves by constantly asking "Who was it that made us this way? Was it our parents, the way they treated us? Or someone else? Who was to blame?" And there have been "theories" about that, which I think are mostly nonsense. Like the famous one about gay men being the product of a cold, distant father and a smothering (or overcompensating) mother. As for my being, not gay, just a little more feminine than most men, I could have blamed my mother, who I think would have preferred to have a girl. Did she steer me in a "feminine" direction?
Who needs to be bothered by questions like that?--especially if they feel these problems have wrecked their lives (which thank goodness mine hasn't been). What if I blamed my mother for "making me" what I am by her behavior? What would be the use of it, except to foment anger and bitterness she never deserved, because it was never "her fault." She might have preferred a girl, but I know she loved me anyway, so no problem with that. Had I been born drug-addicted or with fetal alcohol syndrome, I suppose I might have blamed her for that, but none of that was remotely true. Genes, on the other hand, we have no control over. So I'm far happier to say, with Popeye the Sailor Man: "I Yam what I Yam." I was born this way. And that's enough for me.
I think I would've always tried CD at some point in my life but is it genetic? I was curious from age 10 and tried on some of my sister's old clothes but didn't embrace it until now at 43.
If my son becomes curious I'll be happy for him and maybe I'll know then.
Exactamundo
I want to add in response to Stephanie47's post that the role of hormones is intriguing. (I hope I'm not boring anyone by ruminating at length on this, although the practice here seems to favor shorter posts.) It seems to me that crudely we could place most crossdressers into one of two categories, depending on which of two great milestones in life the desire first appeared: birth or puberty.
In the first category, some people say they felt the urge to try on dresses and other girls' clothes as children, or that they always wanted to be a girl. For these people, presumably the "gender identity" part of the brain has been feminized right from birth, to a greater or lesser extent, and they're likely to be transgender to one degree or another.
In the second category, those like myself--and Stephanie--found the desire to crossdress only emerged (with a bang, and with somewhat different motives) around puberty, when all those hormones started kicking in. Our brains may be feminized somewhat, but usually to a lesser degree, and we're likely to end up being "mere crossdressers" (no matter how compulsive!) rather than truly transgender.
Admittedly there are other, psychological factors that influence our development--or more to the point, inhibit it! Social pressures especially, or whatever it is that makes us feel we're "strange" or "wrong" or "not like other people" and "shouldn't be this way." So I'm sure a number of gender-related feelings and desires can be suppressed until (and unless) we reach a stage of self-acceptance, in which case we can "let these feelings loose" and explore them. This may happen at any stage of life. So it doesn't altogether surprise me to hear of a male at age 35, say, finding it "dawned on him" that he wanted to become a woman. I picture him (or "her") as struggling gallantly to live up to his expected "male role" in life, so intently that even the awareness of contrary gender-related feelings and desires was suppressed below the level of consciousness--until at some point in life the pressures eased up, or simply became intolerable, and the transgendered feelings were released, burst forth and bubbled to the surface of consciousness.
While I'm not transgender, just a "common-or-garden variety" crossdresser, I could bear witness to something similar myself. As I mentioned on the "finding acceptance" thread, it wasn't until I reached a stage of self-acceptance that I felt able to explore certain "gendered" aspects of my personality, and felt freer to be "Lori." Up until then, I'd been struggling at times with all the feelings of awkwardness and guilt that so many do about crossdressing, and I'm sure I was inhibited from digging into those aspects any further.
But at least I was aware of the internal struggle, as no doubt Stephanie has been. That's a point worth mentioning, because for me at least, crossdressing was largely eroticized and sexualized, in the beginning anyway, and sexual drives are intense and overt. It's hard not to be aware of them. "Gender identity" issues can be far subtler and harder to define or put our finger on. So the "gendered" part of "me" that is Lori couldn't "come out" more fully until I reached that stage of casting off the inhibitions. In the same way, I can imagine how someone whose main challenge is being transgender could still suppress that part of themselves entirely until they reached a certain stage of "release." That's in contrast with others who "always knew" about the "woman within themselves."
That explanation is all very well, yet I still feel surprised to read of some people who "suddenly felt the desire" to crossdress at the age of 45, say, or even later--which may or may not be "gender-related." And somewhere (I can't recall where) I recently read of a man who unexpectedly found homoerotic desires "popping up" at the late age of 65 or so. (Yes, I know "sexual orientation" is separate from "gender identity," but it's still all related to the gendering of the brain.)
I have to wonder what causes this "late eruption." Especially if these folks had zero awareness of any previous "inner struggle" with feelings of this kind, and they just sprang up from nowhere. It's just as puzzling to me as it must be shocking and disconcerting to them.
What exactly is going on there? Is it, as GretchenM suggested, about some gene getting abruptly "turned on" by some life event, or by some internal timer going off, and whoops! at the click of a switch, suddenly you're a crossdresser! (Or even "gay"--"bi-curious" at least, like the person I read about.) Possibly; who knows?
At the same time I can't help wondering, as Stephanie has, about the role of hormones--particularly testosterone--in all this. It's well established that testosterone levels rise in response to competition and threats, and war and mortal combat are the ultimate example. So it's natural that testosterone levels would surge when faced with battle, as Stephanie was--and suppress any "softer, feminine" thoughts of crossdressing.
However, we also know that testosterone levels tend to decline, slowly and naturally, as men age. Among other things, some men who were irascible, pugnacious or abrasive in their youth, fueled no doubt by excessive testosterone, have been said to "mellow with age" as testosterone declined to normal. So could it be that in some men, testosterone was also suppressing certain latent "feminized aspects" of their brain, and as those hormones slowly ebbed away with age, that "feminized part" was liberated to emerge suddenly as an unexpected urge to crossdress in middle age or even later?
Well, it's an idea. Anyway "we are who we are"--and sometimes "we are who we become," especially when whatever made us "become" that way was unknown, unexpected, and beyond our control. It's up to us to "ride the wave," that's all.