Have a good day SIR !

So I?m out shopping in a very man in a dress mode. I?m completely underdressed, women?s beige shorts, white golf shirt, purple hoodie with white flower logo over left breast. I?m also sporting bracelets on both wrists, necklace, clip on earrings and carrying a handbag.
I stop in Marshall?s where they have 2 women at the door I assume to count customers because of COVID. Nothing said on the way in but on the way out, one woman says loudly ?Have a good day,Sir? I replied equally loudly ? Thank You very much ?
Driving away I thought to myself, I should have asked her why she said that since I was presenting more of a female style and she wasn?t using the correct noun or pronoun and being insensitive to a customer.
What do you ladies think?

I had that happen in a Kmart with a SA years ago. I think it was just a reaction and nothing was meant by it. I just ignored the comment and kept on going,

Brianne,

The devil is in the detail or in cases like these the inflection. If every word is said without emphasis then it's difficult to know whether or not those speaking intended anything by it. On the other hand I've experience someone who said, "Thanks", (slightest of pauses) and then an emphasised, "Mate". It was an obvious dig. Thankfully experiences like that are extremely rare and while they can cut a little at the time we have to remember the problem is with them. They're the one's in the wrong. They're the bigot out of touch with a modern progressive society.

Brianne, some time back, I had a similar situation. I was closely clean shaven; wearing bra (with enhancers in) and panties, women's lo-rise bell bottoms, woman's top, high heel boots, no makeup. I stopped by a local CVS to get a few things; and after ringing me out, the boy cashier snidely replied "Thank you, SIR." Being the smart ass that I am, I replied.....in my best "gay voice"..."You're very welcome, Sweety." and left. I don't know that that was the best thing I could have done, but I still giggle when I think about it.

Hi Brianne. :) I think that it was an honest mistake by the female door greeter, (or SA if that's how you want to refer to her)..... Perhaps a male had just left the store before you and she said to him, "Have a good day, sir"? Of course I don't know, cause I wasn't there. LOL But, there was a time or two when I was out en femme and could've SWORN someone addressed me as "sir", but 99.9% of the time, I get addressed as "ma'am". Also, I'm hard of hearing so maybe I've never heard anyone call me "sir" when I've been out en femme..... Could've just been my ears playing tricks on me with the noisy environement. LOL At that time though, I was inside a Golden Corral and it was kind of crowded, even AFTER the pandemic had begun, so it was kinda noisy in there. LOL

Anyway, if you looked more like a woman than a man when you were at that store, I think the SA meant to address you as "ma'am", but it came out "sir" and maybe she realized her mistake later? Again, I don't know, just speculating.

I think if you’re going out in “hybrid” mode, you should expect that people will be confused on which pronouns to use. Just because YOU expect to be female gendered because you’re “more” fem than male doesn’t meant that everyone has the same expectations. Since we don’t walk around with our pronouns on our sleeves, you should be ready for confusion from strangers.

Brianne,
The first point is however you are underdressed no one really is aware of it so it's irrelevant , so how appropriate was your outer wear , how many women did you see with a similar look ? Also consider sometimes if we try too hard it could make us stand out more .

I found everyday takes as much if not more effort than dressing to the nines , I never skimp on applying makeup and always wear a wig , in three years of being full time I haven't had a single " SIR " . It still makes me smile that I was called madam twice when I rushed to the builder's merchant so I could finish fitting a new electric shower .

If the comment upsets you maybe consider if your look is acceptable , what did the woman pick up on to make the comment ?

[QUOTE=Brianne;4518753]So I?m out shopping in a very man in a dress mode/QUOTE]
You yourself identify that you are a Man In A Dress. Why would this response come as a surprise?

You described yourself as "...in a very man in a dress mode.", so the "sir" was appropriate, if a little pointed. If you had been making a serious effort to blend you might have had grounds to complain.

Aunt Kelly has hit the nail o n the head. You said you were dressed as a man in a dress so your clothing was not the controlling factor. I often wear panties, bra, blouse and ladies shorts and shoes with no attempt be gendered as female. If someone genders me as female I say thank you if they gender be as a well dressed male I also say thank you.

Ladies lets all give folks a pass if they accidentally misgender us. We are sometimes making it hard for folks to know pronoun they should use with out asking us.

Unlike many here, I own a mirror! So I know I am a man in a dress.:doh:

When I'm out at vanilla venues dressed, (very rarely!), I expect good, polite, service from the SA's and wait staff. That DOESN'T mean I expect them to guess how I wish to be gendered!:straightface:

Call me anything but, "Bub, Dude, B---ch, or Hey u"!:heehee:

Sorry, Brianne, I'm afraid you need to get real! I'll grant you Helen Highwater's question: namely, did this woman emphasize the "Sir" in a way that signaled she was having a dig at you? But I'm betting that was not the case.

Seriously, if you send out mixed signals you can only expect to confuse people about how to "gender" you. OK, so you're wearing a bunch of jewelry, bracelets, necklace, earrings and whatnot, and carrying a handbag. And wearing women's shorts--but men wear shorts too, not just cargo shorts but "running shorts." And a hoodie with a flower on it! So big hairy deal, Garfield! Men wear hoodies too! And golf shirts! Far more men than women play golf, so that if anything is a "male" clue.

Feminine flower logos? How many "gender clues" do we have to drop before we tilt the balance of perception from "male" to "female"?

Well, they say "girls will read boy books, but boys won't read girl books." And likewise, "women wear clothes with men's names on them (Ralph Lauren, Calvin Klein, etc.) but men won't wear clothes with women's names on them. So "Liz Claiborne" has to be just plain "Claiborne," as though she were a man, to sell her designs to men. And while girls wear T-shirts with pictures of male rock stars, guys don't wear T-shirts with pictures of female rock stars. Or do they? And if they did, would they expect to be called "Ma'am" instead of "Sir" on that account? I don't think so! It's not enough of a clue. I have a T-shirt with a picture of "Den Lille Havfrue"--you know, Hans Christian Andersen's "Little Mermaid," whose statue stands in Copenhagen harbor--done in gold. I've worn it because she's beautiful, even if she wasn't a rock star, and frankly it is a touch of femininity on my part, Yet nobody called me "Ma'am" because I was proudly wearing a picture of a girl on my chest, nor would I expect them to.

What was anyone to make of you? If you were wearing panties underneath it all, who could see them? I imagine your face at least would look masculine, if not your body. We can't hope to just toss on any old clothes, even with jewelry and a handbag, and be automatically perceived as female as a natural-born woman would be. If we're born looking masculine, even carrying ourselves that way, we have to work all the harder than any GG would to counter those masculine clues. Were you wearing a bra, presenting breasts? Where was your makeup to feminize your masculine face, your wig (or feminine hairstyle at least)? Legs and shoes: were they shapely and elegant?

If all we do is drop enough "gender clues" to leave people confused, we can't blame them for failing to perceive our preferred gender. They may well go for what seems the safest option. Many ordinary men feel especially insulted by being characterized as "female." For all those women could tell, you might have been just a rather effeminate "gay guy," who would still prefer being addressed as "Sir." If the world will not adjust to us, we can only adjust to the world. If you really want to be called "Ma'am," you just have to work harder and cover the bases more completely, that's all.

Her opinion of you is none of your business. You can choose to be offended or choose not to, which makes your day better?

I agree with Micki and the others. You were not trying to pass, like you said, a man in a dress, so I would expect to be called sir. If you had on a wig and makeup and did a reasonable presentation as a woman, then I would wonder about the comment, but as a MIAD, sir fits!

They greet thousands of people every day and probably see more openly gay men than transfolk. In which case Sir would be appropriate and Ma'am might be insulting.

Yes, there are two different issues here.
One is that in gender-blurred presentation, even with genuine intentions, it can be difficult for people to know how to address you. As an enby i wouldn't ever be likely to get called ma'am, but i feel very uncomfortable being called sir. I would rather staff just didn't call me sir or madam.
The other point is the tone in which the "Sir" was spoken. As Helen pointed out there is a huge difference between somebody politely calling you sir by genuine mistake, or deliberately misgendering you in an insolent tone of voice.
One is an honest oversight, which many businesses are trying to reduce by training staff in diversity awareness. The other is a blatant transphobic insult, which ought to lead to disciplinary proceedings against the staff member concerned. Only Brianne knows how it actually sounded.

If you go out dressed and people refer to you as "sir", it's a sign that you are not doing a very good job of disguising yourself as a female. It's not the other person's fault, they see a guy.

It's time for you to take some photos or videos of yourself and study them to see how you can better pass yourself off as a woman,

Reading other replies I can see two questions raised , Krisi mentions the " Passing " question , the other problem is back to the NB situation , we all have the right to dress as we chose in the same way other people have the right to comments how they see it , I know I've made this comment before but I still find the NB / MIAD a confusing one for the public to understand , not to use MR/MS or MRS but THEM or THEY in the context of this thread . How can the security women at the door address you " Have a good day them, they ,it !! We expect them to be polite and respectful but we need to make it clearer how we expect to be addressed before we get heated about it .

We can't expect everybody to read the message we think we are sending in a way that is consistent with what we think we are saying because they may not read what we think we are saying correctly. Especially if your appearance is a bit ambiguous. The fact is the number of men that can actually pass as women is rather low. Our conclusion as to what a person's appearance is saying is not always correct because our sense of the sex or the gender of a person is based on a great number of clues that can be very subtle. The Tells are always there and may even involve detection of an odor that you are not even aware you have that tells everybody who is sensitive to it who and what you really are. In fact, the person may not even be aware of such a subtle thing but the brain detects it loud and clear and reacts accordingly irrespective of what your consciousness thinks is the case. Pheromones are rarely even detected consciously, but they can have a huge impact on behavior. In other words, the world is a whole lot more complicated than we think it is.

Correct nouns and pronouns depend upon a clear statement that you are absolutely this or that so they can say the right thing. Our perception of ourselves in the eyes of others may be entirely wrong because of the fact that you really cannot look at yourself as objectively as you can a pencil on a table.

Tone of voice is very important in communication but a particular tone of voice may be produced because of factors other the perception of you in the way you intend it to be seen. The tone may not even be related to you but rather something else the person is thinking about at the moment. For me, if a person says something that seems a bit confrontational or a bit insulting I try not to bite as it may be baiting. I try to give a nice response or I just act like I didn't hear it. You never know exactly why a person says something in the way they say it. So don't presuppose and just be nice. If they are being confrontational, you being nice confuses them so they will pull back or recognize their error or something else that defuses the negative interaction. Just a smile can do it.

Get over it and live your life.

I try not to worry about the little things. Too many good things in life to pay attention to.

You posted "So, I'm out shopping in a very man is a dress mode." If that means by your own admission you looked like a man wearing clothing and accessories usually worn by a female perhaps the woman defaulted to what perception of you was. I would agree with others that voice inflection would be the key to whether her words were intended to be a snide remark. In my area many stores have employees counting those going in and out to stay within the guidelines of covid. All of them say something entering and leaving.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Micki_Finn

I think if you?re going out in ?hybrid? mode, you should expect that people will be confused on which pronouns to use. Just because YOU expect to be female gendered because you?re ?more? fem than male doesn?t meant that everyone has the same expectations. Since we don?t walk around with our pronouns on our sleeves, you should be ready for confusion from strangers.

---

What Micki said.

You clearly went out of your way to present in a manner that did not align with accepted societal expectations of gender-conforming clothing. I'm not say saying that I necessarily agree with those entrenched "norms", but that's still the reality in today's world. You knowingly dressed in a manner that was sure to elicit reactions of one type of another and that is exactly what happened. In your case, that turned out to be a negative one.

Kind of hard to claim "victimhood" here when you were the author of your own misfortune, even if it was only in part. Most of us who go out in public dress in full female garb to either "pass" or "blend in" with the GG's out there, and without looking to drive a particular agenda. Had you been mis-gendered in either of these modes, you would have had my sympathy as that would have been a huge disappointment to you. As it is...fairly or not...you played a large part in bringing this negative outcome upon yourself, so put on your big girl panties and chalk it up to experience for the next time.

Could be
They were confused
They have to give a greeting thousands of times a day and an accident
Or they were being rude and if that is the case it says more about them than you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Teresa

How can the security women at the door address you " Have a good day them, they ,it !!

---

How indeed! If staff members find themselves genuinely confused, I suggest dropping the "Sir" or "Ma'am" altogether. "Have a good day" will do.

I find if they are loud about it they are trying to draw attention to you and you are a guy dressed as female.i have asked a few like that and normally I get you are a man.

I think I agree with Lori Ann. If unsure, just drop the gender address (sir, miss, etc.) entirely.

But - without seeing what the OP looked like at the time, I'm guessing that the greeter's quick glance saw what looked like a male to her, and she just automatically said the "standard" phrase... probably without a second thought. She was most likely looking to whoever was next and repeating the same thing.

Personally, I'd say "shrug it off and move on." I doubt the poor girl meant anything by it.

Unfortunately, you're going to get this 😢.


The world isn't ready for you yet. The gender-on-sight crutch will take some time, but if your presentation was true to your gender identity, then that doesn't mean it's you to change. You are helping the paving of the way for the future ones. It is going to be rough.



Some full-femmers here will use this to justify trying to binarify you. For me, this our biggest and most egregious failure in this community. They are presenting themselves true to their own identities, while trying to deny that to you.


It isn't all bad news though. Some paving stones are being laid by others: Harry Styles in a dress was on the cover of Vogue, and Mark B has been featured in Interview Magazine. I wonder whether the binary preachers here can say the same :whistling:.

( Check the gallery for your inspiration - March 5th ).


- L.

Lydianne,
You make some very good points. It is always disheartening to read posts telling others how to dress or that they need to look a certain way because people get confused and aren't smart enough to figure it out or, better yet, if one doesn't pretend to be a woman, it somehow hurts their "cause". If someone wanted to present as a crossdresser or as nonbinary, what about that cause? Do they even get (or need) one?

While shopping in a thrift store the other day I saw a man in a clearly feminine floral blouse. His other clothing was nondescript. Can't imagine anyone confusing him for a woman or addressing him as such. But what if he was wearing a little makeup and a wig? Would that entice a double take?

Sadly, there probably aren't enough crossdressers to make a difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaraLin

...without seeing what the OP looked like at the time, I'm guessing that the greeter's quick glance saw what looked like a male to her, and she just automatically said the "standard" phrase... probably without a second thought. She was most likely looking to whoever was next and repeating the same thing.

---

Excellent point, SaraLin! How much time or opportunity did the greeter have to study anyone's appearance in detail?

It's different from facing a sales assistant across the counter, where she (or he) has the time and opportunity to observe us during the course of a transaction. It's different even from seeing another person in a store, idly wondering what sex they are if it seems unclear, and taking a moment's trouble to look at them for clues either way and make a probable assessment. Just as you said, this greeter had neither the time nor the opportunity to do any such thing. She was forced to make a snap judgment based on a brief glance, and was already looking at the next person.

Most people in retail have migrated towards saying "have good one" to remove all thought from a mechanical pleasantry. If you were intentionally dressed MIAD, then that person was technically correct in calling you a Sir, even though they would have been better off with "have a good one."

[SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]

Also, some people can be intentionally harsh. There's this one restaurant that I used to love to frequent, until they hired a new server who would constantly call on me as "buddy" or "boss" when I was clearly and unequivocally presenting as Monica. I mentioned it to the manager once and he just shrugged, so I stopped going there.

You said yourself you were in "man in a dress" mode, what did you expect? And I don't mean it in a derogatory way, because I present the same way as you, making no presence about being female. FYI, I use the men's washroom when out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Micki_Finn

I think if you?re going out in ?hybrid? mode, you should expect that people will be confused on which pronouns to use. Just because YOU expect to be female gendered because you?re ?more? fem than male doesn?t meant that everyone has the same expectations. Since we don?t walk around with our pronouns on our sleeves, you should be ready for confusion from strangers.

---

Very reasonable and very well said.

Thanks for all your replies and the great insight. I think ?there?s 2 sides to every story ? and leave it at that.

We may get better acceptance by answering to sir no matter how we are dressed. Wearing a dress with wig and make up does not change who you are in my opinion.

I went into a Lowe?s a while back dressed female from neck down. The employee in the tool department asked I I needed help and used sir. It did not bother me in the least because he was looking at my face, not my body which is what I would expect. At least he was trying to assist me.

On the other hand more than once, grocery store baggers have said mam to me when I was in male mode and have zero feminine attributes. That mildly annoyed me but only on the level that they must either be blind or say it so often it is out of habit. Really I do not care though as most of my bartenders will call me something like Honey which I am cool with ; )

Sandi

As others have mentioned why is it a thing that in order to be polite you have to guess a person's gender and state it out loud for everyone to hear? Have a nice day is to me just as appropriate. I get that it came from a previous time but now in these (confusing for some) times why not just leave it off? Many times I can tell the person is saying you didn't fool me. My presentation is reasonably on point. There is no doubt what I'm going for. I occasionally get miss gendered even why I'm not trying. I really don't understand why they still choose male.
This may have even happened at Sephora once. I was so shocked that I was no longer certain of what I heard and just left it at that. My only justification there is that they get a lot of gay clientele. I still think staff at a store like that should be trained better.

Unfortunately, we live in the world with Muggles and they generally are not up to date on things gender! You are a pioneer, whether you know it or not! It took a longtime for Muggles to give L-G portion their rights in the world! T is taking a little longer! MIADs are going to take a little longer! That said, I suggest that you let it run down your back! I was at J C Penney local store just before it closed! A female SA (young teens to twenties) Said, "Good night, (long pause) Sir!" with much emphasis on the Sir! I just kept going as if she had not spoken! I laughed as her job would be gone in less than a week! That was meant to hurt as the two there laughed about it! I did not take the bait! Sometimes you have to let things go and go on with you life!
Hugs Lana Mae

I have never, ever been addressed as "sir" when I was dressed totally in femme in public places. I go out as Teresa frequently, both alone and with my wife, so I think it's fail to conclude that people are generally intending to be nice and not offend.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brianne

I think ?there?s 2 sides to every story ? and leave it at that.

---

If you were trying to pass or to blend and that was the response, that would be wrong of them to do. However it really does not sound as though you were trying to pass. But it sounds like you really wanted to pass and are upset that you were not addressed as female. So, maybe you should stop dressing as a MIAD and dress to blend or to pass. I am in NO way saying that anybody should do this, I am just suggesting that it sounds like the OP wanted to be addressed as female.

I dressed for many manys years as solely male, and then I dressed for many years in a mixed gender format, and then for many years while dressing fully as me as often as I could without be considered full time. If I didn't care how people addressed me I dressed in a mixed gender format and accepted however I was gendered by others. If I wanted to be addressed solely as either male or female then I tried to give very large non-ambiguous signals.

Don't be so sensitive. She may have been standing there for a long time and was just repeating the same old thing. I have been in places where GG's were being addressed as sir by overworked store clerks. It happens even when I'm trying to blend. I just say Thank you and you too. Kill them with kindness

Lucky.
I often go shopping, fully dressed and get SIR.
Luckily I have a sense of humor, smile, politely thank them and on my way.... I did have 1 sales person who ran after me to apologize over his error.
I just told him "I often make the same mistake", we laughed and we both enjoyed a moment that had I CHOSEN to taken offence, would have been horrible for both of us.
So how was I dressed....

Attachment 320848

Reading other posts, reminds me of the time I got a very "Good day MATE", so in a very deep voice I replied "Good day",
a) it's more fun and less hassle than being offended
b) it's about me having the power to chose what offends me

Hi Brianne :hugs:, You did say that you were in MIAD Mode, >Orchid**O:daydreaming:O**

I was looking for a certain bra at a Ross store. I had on a white blouse which showed as I was bent over looking at the bottom row of bras. A woman who I assume was security came up behind me and asked, Do you wear a bra every day. It startled me and I move very fast. As I spin around we are maybe a couple feet apart. The woman was stunned with me in her face saying, YES. Do you have a problem with it. She quivered an, oh no, I'm sorry no worry. I went back looking and she went to the other side of the store.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Micki_Finn

I think if you?re going out in ?hybrid? mode, you should expect that people will be confused on which pronouns to use. Just because YOU expect to be female gendered because you?re ?more? fem than male doesn?t meant that everyone has the same expectations. Since we don?t walk around with our pronouns on our sleeves, you should be ready for confusion from strangers.

---

I agree with Micki, how people can possibly guess your gender preference ? Some MIAD just feels masculine whatever they wears. The only solution for being non offensive/inclusive will be to give up gendered designation. Which is apparently not what you are looking for.

And Brianne, your underdressing is irrelevant in this particular situation (at least I hope ! :D).