psychology questions, sort of:

Sorry for what maybe a rambling question, but I have mulling over a couple different articles I recently read and kind of interested to know if I am just not getting it: So, first I read this article by a professional woman (I won't link it because it was political oriented and that's not were I want to go), it was about her professional relationship with a powerful man. One day when they are alone, he takes her aside and kisses her - apparently this is welcome conduct as she relates it was the beginning of a year long affair. But what got me was she related that while they were kissing, he takes her hand and places it on his crotch. Now...maybe there is more to the story she doesn't relate, okay. But here is my problem, I guess I really didn't date many girls/women before I met my wife - however, I cannot ever conceive that I would have thought, during a first kiss or even later kiss, to take her hand and place it on my crotch! Am I just that na?ve? Is this how many men act? And is this the sexual harassment women (gg or otherwise) routinely encounter?

Second, I have been reading up on the psychology of crossdressing (I haven't found any real answers sadly). I found one interesting theory though, that suggests that some (not all) cd's had trouble relating to girls/young women during the time boys are supposed to start dating, that they may have trouble objectifying women at that age, so don't get as aggressive (in terms of asking a girl out, making the first move, etc.). So the conclusion was crossdressing was a way of turning this objectification inward, that we dress to satisfy that need. Amway, I see parts of myself in that, as I did not date much and only when in college did I start. And as I go over a few dates in my head, I can see I was very shy, very afraid of being too aggressive as I was so scared of offending, as being seen as "that type of guy" or just didn't read the signs that the girl was interested in physical contact (if only I could go back in time knowing what I know now!).

Interesting theory anyway. Any thoughts?

Dalearden, I think that you are correct in the first scenario, there is a lot more to the story that the writer does not relate. But like you I cannot conceive of any situation where I would find the answer behaviour acceptable. Sadly it does seem to occur all too frequently, and is the sort of harassment that many women face.

Now with your second question then I would have to say that the theory just does not hold true, at least not for me. I never had any problems with dating, or with relating to girls and women in any situation. Indeed, when I did reveal Kaye to my friends, the first comment was one of surprise because "You were always such a ladies man". I have always had a greater affinity to women and girls, even in a male dominated background, I had two brothers and attended an all boys school, and entered a predominately male career.
No I stopped reading up on the psychology of crossdressers.com, or looking for any answers, many years ago. Just accepted this part of me and got on with enjoying life.

Hi Dalearden :hugs:, The First part shows a lack of respect for the woman,

The second question, I started this program at around 4 years old, >Orchid **o:daydreaming:o**

First part: The man's a pig. I can't conceive any way that behavior is acceptable - outside of a porn video maybe?

Second part: Well, I was shy and awkward around girls in my teen years - but that didn't cause my CD issues. It's rather the opposite. I was always believed myself to be "weird" because I had the desire to be feminine and I thought that everyone could see it (especially girls!)

Hi Dale,
As for your first question no idea I will let our GG members answer. Before a first kiss all kinds of game (visual contact, words) may have taken place and changed the initial conditions so a move like this may be judged different ways. The way you describe the scene, the male takes the lead all along. If that is really what happened, then at first glance it looks like he is forcing her, yes.

As for the second: when you start CDing around 11, the way back machine is a bit fuzzy and finding the reasons why you started it is a challenging thing to do. I tried for a while and kind of gave up because I came back with more questions each time than answers. I wasn't shy with girls in the sense that I was speaking a lot with them (more than my other male friends) but I was shy in the sense that anything developing into a possibly romantic relation paralyzed me to an extent. The reason for that is that I romanced the story a lot in my head and getting a rebuttal would be a tragedy. This didn't stop me from opening my heart to a few, but only a few years later, and with mixed results :) But at 11, being physical with a girl seemed out of the question and some very vivid memories from my very first dressing sessions testify that my CDing was clearly an attempt to explore the mystery of femininity, female clothes being the closest substitute I could find, and dressing in them being the closest to it I could be.

I?ve wondered about the biology and psychology of crossdressing, and have encountered a variety of theories, and have found no good explanations. Maybe there are multiple reasons we crossdress, maybe it?s just another variety of normal. I?ve give up trying to figure it out and just accept it.

The guy is one of those who think that women are here to serve men - to serve them whatever they want. No respect for women. She should have reported it and had him charged with sexual assault. It is the foundation of the #MeToo movement.

As for the theory it does not make sense. Many of us prefer the company of women and tend to identify with women more than with men. For me, I adored playing with girls and merely accepted playing with boys because that was expected. I wanted to be accepted as one of the girls. Of course, that was not going to happen because at a young age there is little realization of anything having to do with identities. A boy is a boy; a girl is a girl. Even in playing if the game involved some version of playing house I was expected to play the man's role. I did but I did not like that. I never liked playing boys team sports.

There are some really good, modern theories of how gender reversal (complete or partial) occurs, but there are no explanations that are perfect or conclusive. It is a very complex behavior and crossdressing is usually simply an expression of something far deeper and more complex going on in the person's mind, whether the crossdresser is male or female. Studies have also shown that the number of women who engage in a form of crossdressing are just as common as men. But women can easily get away with it because it is more acceptable for women to wear men's clothes; the reverse is not acceptable. Double standard. But women tend to adapt and can wear clothes that appear to be similar to men's clothes but are made to fit a woman's body. Pant suits instead of dresses, for example. T-shirts and sweatshirts are actually a bit unisex unless there are printed patterns of flowers and the like on the ones that are intended for women.

Put in extreme terms, men are expected to dress male and that is that; women are far more free. But us who are more non-binary mix and match a great deal; I do to a limited extent and I don't get much flack; in fact I think a lot of women like it while a lot of men just frown or intentionally ignore me. Fine with me. I would rather hang out with the girls anyway. The strong posturing and aggressiveness of men in groups really irritates me. To me, just be yourself. Not everything is a competition and nobody needs to prove that they are the bestest of all. But some women like that.

An interesting, just announced fact is that there are more women who live with other women in more than roommate situation than men who do that with other men. And a lot of those newcomers to the woman-woman relationship were married and left their husband because they turned into domineering pigs that the wife found intolerable. All of the hypermasculine fad is sometimes destroying marriages and driving some women into the arms of other women who know how to show affection and are looking for the same thing.

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..... it was about her professional relationship with a powerful man.

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Sadly, sometimes I think that men who believe they are "powerful" think and act differently than other men. Look at recent history of high profile TV/movie/business personalities who have lost jobs, wives, status, all because they think they can get away with behavior that isn't acceptable.

For your second comment: I really don't have an opinion. It seems there could be as many reasons as there are CDers.

1st question: Sadly yes, many many men behave this way and this sort of harassment is normal.

2nd question: I’d have to say it wouldn’t apply to me because my desire to be one of the girls predates my desire to be WITH one of the girls.

On question 1. No question in mind that it was unacceptable behavior. On the other hand, why did the woman not reject the man at that point? Given that it was the beginning of a long affair, there might have been non verbal signals that told the man that the woman was receptive to that behavior. I am pretty clueless when it comes to non verbal communication.

On question 2. I started crossdressing when I was 6 or so. No notion of sex at that time. Like most of us I have no clue why I wanted to wear my mother's dress even though it was way too big for me!

Question #1; I suspect there is more to this story than being told.

Question #2; My interest in women's clothing predated any interest at all in girls. If my memory is correct I was still a single digit kid. It was before puberty set in. It also had no sexual component. I loved the feel of my mother's nylon lips and nightgowns. Personally, I don't believe anyone knows why a man starts cross dressing.

It is not just men, I am very shy around women. I did not have my first real date until I was 28. During our first kiss the girl I was with had my hands all over her, but I didn't mind.
Sara

You aren't providing enough context about the article. Some women find it exciting to be treated in a degrading manner, or fantasize about such treatment.

Regarding your hypothesis, like many of our friends here, I started dressing long before I was into girls. Later, when I was into girl, I was very successful at it as a child, as a teen, and later as an adult. None of that changed my desire to look like a woman, to be a woman, even if only for short periods of time.

I think we've well established that point 1, we don't have enough info and/or the man is a pig. I think a LOT of men are pigs, so the latter fits for me. I would never pull such a stunt.

To the second, I started dreaming of crossdressing around age 4, started dressing around age 8. I started dating just before age 16, but I wasn't aggressive about it at all, and dated the same girl all through high school. I joined the reserves out of high school, and went off to college. Going to bootcamp changed my approach to life in general. From that point forward, I had no trouble dating at all, never spending more than a month without a girlfriend. So, for me personally, I don't think it maps.

I cannot imagine being the man in the scenario you relate in your but my take on the issue is that the men who do wouldn't if it didn't work for them often enough to continue the behavior. It seems that the author writes herself in as the passive participant, but I don't buy it at face value. I know that it is less prevalent, but women can be the aggressor too. You hear about young female teachers having sex with minor boys often enough to see that it's all part of reality. And, certain women use sex to their advantage at all levels of society. Unfortunately, other women pay the price when certain men assume ALL women are one way.

As far as shyness around girls being a cause for crossdressing, I'm guessing it may play a part for certain males, but it would seem to be a more minor cause. My inclinations came decades after marriage and raising children. It came about suddenly after empty-nesting and a major relationship crisis. I cannot see any of the shyness you mention being a factor.

Another human here who also found the need to bend my gender before puberty.

On part one, Obviously the guy is a jerk and has no respect for women and most likely never did.
On part two, When I was in my teens I was very shy around everyone. I started trying my mothers things, and I mean everything, at around 11-12. I do not think one thing has anything to do with the other.
That question seems to be the one that none of us can pinpoint as to the why, maybe Char is correct that there are as many reasons as there are CD’ers

I believe testosterone tends to bring out aggression in men. And there are other reasons that many men are aggressive sexually and socially. But there are also physically aggressive women out there, believe it or not. I've had experiences with both. And I've also had women expect me to be aggressive because they've learned to expect that behavior from men.

And yes, either the story or your synopses lacks details. Maybe the man sensed that the woman wanted to be kissed. Maybe placing her hand on his crotch wasn't so piggish but part of a natural prelude to sex.

Your 2nd question is interesting since I was also very shy (and still am pretty much). But from answers so far, this appears to be a correlation more than a cause.

Thank you for the thoughts everyone, lots to consider. I probably have been trying to understand the psychology of "all this" since the internet started, with no luck and no real hope of finding an answer, but I persist on.

Serious question, if the psychologists have no real answers, does talking to a therapist still help? Thanks

I can sure relate to what you say. I was super shy around girls, especially any i would like to date. So, i never went to a prom nor even asked anyone. I was miles behind the other guys socially, like a little kid, and i never dated until well into my 20's and rare, My first real girlfriend sadly moved to a distant city,and overdosed and died. I have never had sex with any women, even when they wanted me to. 67yo now.. I totally get what you wrote about CDing for the unmet needs and objectification.

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Originally Posted by BLUE ORCHID

Hi Dalearden :hugs:, The First part shows a lack of respect for the woman,

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And a woman with poor self-esteem, perhaps. That kind of behavior sells the heck out of romance novels but its unacceptable in the real world.

Question #2: I was pretty much a regular male until I began dressing out of the blue in my 50's.:eek:

In high school, my close friends and I were pretty shy. However, I was sexually active with my high school girlfriend. And, my college girlfriend. But, it wasn't until I found success in the real estate business that many women came on to me. There's something about successful men that attracts pretty women! But, after a number of unsatisfactory one nite stands?:sad:

I went back to my high school technique of having to feel a connection to a woman to sleep with her. Just lust didn't work well for me. U may attribute that to my "feminine side". But, I'm not sure I even have one!:devil:

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Originally Posted by dalearden

Serious question, if the psychologists have no real answers, does talking to a therapist still help? Thanks

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the psychologists aren't there to give you the answers you seek. They are there to guide you toward finding YOUR answers.

Think of them as being the right tool for the job - or better yet, a knowledgeable guide who can guide you through the confused jungle of your life.
They may not know where you're going, or why you're taking the trip, but they know what dead-ends to avoid and can recognize pitfalls before you step into them.

It really helps a LOT to be able to be able to discuss your deepest feelings and fears with someone who isn't going to freak out or judge you - someone who is "in your corner" when it comes to helping you figure things out.

Very well said SaraLin. Therapists are usually not psychiatrists that dig into the very deep causes of behaviors. My youngest daughter is a therapist and one that is well regarded. They have a talent for feeling and seeing a person's pain (empathy) and then helping to alleviate that pain through various techniques based on a general knowledge of the nature of the behavior the person is exhibiting and the issues they have.

I can only add that from my own experience or lack there of while growing up. I never dated in school. I GED'ed out of 10th grade when I turned 17. Prior to that, I grew up in a divorced home with with a mother that worked two jobs. Not much money, very few friends. The high school was in a affluent neighborhood and I was bullied almost constantly. I was raised to respect women, and would never thought of taking her hand and placing it on my crotch.

The second part of your question,

I don't see myself as objectifying women. I like the look and feel of the clothes, makeup and how I present when dressed.

Seriously , a man puts my hand on his crotch with the first kiss then I know what hes after and what he thinks of me and thats not very much . Even when I was a teenager I had a rule that if he kisses me and tries to get down my shirt at the same time , then he is OUT ! That was the 70s and that rule is still with me today .

From the outside looking in I see alot of people here dress as a reaction to stress , loneliness , loss or major changes ( although most will deny it ) and alot of AGP .
All the statements about starting before puberty are fine except that we are born sexual creatures and feelings like that start way before puberty ... you dont have to know "what it is "

I think part of me dresses out of loneliness, as 67yo, and never had steady lady friend or mate or sex, and only one lip kiss. And other reasons too.

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Originally Posted by dalearden

no real hope of finding an answer, but I persist on.

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There ARE answers, just you haven't found YOURS. If you're looking for that ONE, TRUE cause of crossdressing, well, sorry, you're never going to find it. The best you can do, is discover why YOU do it, and then work from there. I'm sort of lucky; I managed to figure myself out, but it took about 30 years to do it, with little to no help from the psychiatrists/psychologists; often, I knew more than they did, as it's still a new science.

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Serious question, if the psychologists have no real answers, does talking to a therapist still help? Thanks

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They may help you find answers, but you may not be happy with what you find out. The whole 'born this way' doesn't always hold true. You have to be willing to accept uncomfortable concepts that you discover as you learn more about it. And then, you will have to be willing to accept that there are things that you really don't like, that you are going to have to live with.
I did. Feel free to read my CD bio, link is in my sig below. It describes the events which all contribute to turning a normal little boy into a crossdresser that feels like he's supposed to be transgendered, but it turns out not to be that at all.
Life throws us lots of curve balls. But you don't have to swing at them all.

If you don't have the knowledge to figure yourself out, then perhaps a therapist could help. But remember, just like every other profession, there are good ones, average ones, and bad ones. If you don't seem to be able to make progress, perhaps try someone else.

Guys need to realize, and I think women would understand us better if they realize men have a "male" side, the instinctive, need to go procreate and screw every female part, and then there is the "man" that is the logical side, the side that knows right from wrong and keeps the male side from running rampant. I believe all men have these two sides. Some have more or perhaps too much of one side and none or little of the other and that is why they get in trouble in today's society.

I personally have issues with objectifying women. I know it isn't right, but the male part of me wants to go there and the man in me does pretty well keeping it at bay. I know if I see an attractive women my body chemistry goes crazy. (Not the obvious thing!) I don't know what goes on inside, but I feel the release of some chemical in my body, endorphins, adrenaline, I don't know, but I certainly feel something going on, certainly some natural reaction that happens to a male that kicks in the desire to copulate. I realize when it happens I need to "idle down" before I get myself in trouble. For me it is a very powerful reaction. I believe most men that have the same reaction, but have little control can get into big trouble because of it.

My wife also says that men are all "boys" and do boy stuff. It doesn't matter the age, we are all boys to some degree and do stupid stuff! She had a discussion with her older sister about her husband doing stupid stuff and my wife told her he is a boy, and that is what they do. Her sister said, "but he is 75 years old!" My wife told her it doesn't matter, they are all boys, no matter the age. I think it helped her understand better.

Many of these "boys" think like "males" and believe they can get away with bad behavior. Perhaps their parents never taught them right and wrong.

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there are multiple reasons we crossdress,

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ding ding ding and perfectly simplified.

Sometimes Miss: I read your earlier posts about how things were growing up and, your later life. Your story is a sad one for sure, but I feel you have great inner strength and something special to offer.
Thank you for sharing this. SuziH

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Originally Posted by MonicaPVD

Some women find it exciting to be treated in a degrading manner.

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It's not degrading Monica. As Bethany said, he obviously read the signs.