Disappointing night

We went to a friends new house who relocated for a new job and had a house warming get together.
If started with a man complaining something about a male soccer player who is playing on a female soccer team and how that's so wrong and we are giving the transgender to much freedom. Well we were all into a few drinks now and people are more free and speaking there minds now. It started "I seen one last week it was disgusting", "Thank God my children didn't end up like that, I'd rather have my children coming out gay then that". The circle started getting bigger and more complaints, a women complaining why we should be spending money on transgendered washrooms let them shit there pants if they want to be that way.
My heart rate started to rise listening to this and when they turned to me and my wife how we felt about it. My wife responded very short and said it really isn't any of her business what people choose to do in there lives and she would support her children not only if they are transgender but whatever they decided. I added that transgender isn't digusting but when a parent that doesn't support there children, now thats disgusting to me and sad.
Well I guess they thought we we're supporters and the conversation broke up. When we were driving home my wife said we could have taking it further but all we would be doing is putting a dent in a very large truck. She said it seems like more people are excepting but she has a feeling it's like a women with a lot of makeup on, she tries to look younger but when you take it off it's always the same old face under. In our Itaian culture we have a saying " a wolf chances it's fur, but it never changes its instinct".
I was very disappointed last night and see a long road ahead, sorry if I ruined anyone's day. I just need to vent.

It is disappointing to be sure, Maria, and yes there is a long road ahead. We are all going to run into this from time to time. However, there is a large group out there, maybe even a majority at this point, that does not subscribe to such medieval thought. We are making our voices known, even as others struggle to realize the world is changing...for the better.
I's going to be a long haul, but I think history will be on our side.
Having said that tho, we must be ever vigilant about laws coming up in many states - some have already passed - that deal with restrictions on transgender athletes, transgender children and the like. Alabama's recent laws spring to mind.
So yes...a long road ahead. Some folks are not going to change, but the world is, and we have already embraced the change. I feel good that I and most of us here are a part of it.

Where I used to work there was a large amount of homophobia going on. If I was around I would put an end to it. I know a few people in same sex marriages and they are decent people and I went let the guys at work know it. The conversation would die pretty fast after that!

Maria, it is sad, sad to find out who your friends are, or are not. Obviously none of the people there are "safe" so best you found out now, they some more personal way. I also wonder if everyone felt that way. Sometimes in a group, many people just join in agreement because it seems like the ting to do. They don't think about it, and if they did perhaps they might respond differently.

Thanks for posting this - it is not a pleasant experience but it is part of life for now

Lots of hostility in that group. I guess they enjoy having small, obscure and absent minorities around to pick on.

Sorry to hear of your negative experience
The unprompted and just public condemnation of others always says more about the person saying it than the object of their scorn.
For all our talk, western society's view of gender has roles has remained very conservative. People nod to liberal values at work and in public but few accept it in private.
The segregated one person TG washroom proclaimed as a policy of enlightened tolerance is an example. The put a half skirt symbol on the door and a TG can use that room but as far as I know there is no area of Canada where a TG man can use a female washroom without risking arrest and prosecution. On the aversion to mixed sports, to my mind it is all about the protected status on one gender - the real fear is not of a TG but loss of a privileged status akin to ladies able to join the men's health club but not the reverse.
In my area people seem to care more about the sexual orientation of others more than their own which has perplexed me my whole life. I would not underestimate the psychological power of transference and displacement. That is , if I have unresolved sexuality issues - it can manifest itself as public dislike of others who have the traits within me I cannot accept .



The good news is the young of today are no so red neck and things are slowly but surely getting better.

Reality sets in. I have FB friends that make fun of TGs and I find it disgusting.

I can imagine this same discussion coming up with most of my relatives. I also remember this kind of talk coming up when Bruce Jenner came out as Caitlyn.

These ignorant people make it difficult to come out and be who we are. Some day I'll get so fed up that I'll strip down and show everyone my undergarments!

As with any topic, there is a "mob mentality". If one person states an opinion, others often chime in whether or not they really feel that way or not. And, not everyone will agree on every topic.

I love your wife's response, Maria.

EDIT:

Friends don't always agree on every topic. Most of the time, friends do find a way to remain friends by avoiding conflict.

My comment to this subject are:

As a person that feels like a transgender person I do not think it is fair for male bodies to compete with women. We all know that our past hormones made us bigger and stronger. I feel that women that work super hard to get to the top of their profession sport deserve a fair fight.

I suspect that it is mob mentality and if some of them knew that you were one of those "disgusting people' their opinion would change. It is easy to rally against "them", but much harder when you know one of "them" personally and realize that they are more like you than you thought.
I think that your wife (bless her for speaking up) and you handled the situation very well. It may be a small dent in a very large truck, but it's a start. Perhaps one of them thought seriously about what you said and perhaps did a little research (outside of Facebook posts), and became a little better informed.
I've been in a similar situation, and could not bring myself to speak for fear of getting too emotional.

I am of the opinion that a person who is born a man should not be allowed to compete in women's sports, BUT.....
If we follow this view through to it's conclusion, then we would also have to say that a woman should not be allowed to compete in the men's business world.
Keep 'em barefoot and pregnant.:heehee:

Please correct me if I?m wrong.
The male playing on the female soccer team was a trans man he was born in a female body.
There was a New Zealand weightlifter who was born male but competed as a female at the olympics

A member of my transgender group is transitioning and is now playing tennis in a adult woman’s league. She says she has been accepted.

As an aside, pre-pandemic I was at a bar following one of our team matches. Two guys mentioned about the circumstance; they didn’t approve either. I don’t remember what I said, but I definitely didn't mention I had talked to her the night before.

As to participation in sports,
1) there are so few transgender athletes like that the issue is completely meaningless--it just doesn't occur often enough for all the outrage.
2) Sports should all be about participating, not wins and losses. Playing a sport can give a TG child a chance to meet others, make friends, have fun, and feel good about themselves. I coach high school tennis, and work with our JV players, boys and girls (currently girls). I have a couple of girls now that are extremely raw, not very athletic, and it's extremely unlikely they will ever play varsity tennis for our school. But I spend the time and effort because they are great kids, and participating is great for them.

The odds that ANY player becomes good enough to worry about wins and losses is extremely small, much less a TG athlete. The benefits of just letting them play FAR exceeds any cost because they might be too good for the others.

Thanks Dee
That was well said
I couldn?t agree more

Unfortunately, it is not about Participation Awards. It is about college/university Scholarships, Championships, or other competitions. That is more the basis for whether, or how much transition (hormones, surgeries, etc.) has taken place, to be acceptable by the general masses for one to compete in competitions with those other than their birth gender.

I offer no solutions and have mixed feelings on the topic.

Perhaps proving whether one is fully, or just partially transitioned, will ultimately determine whether an acceptable level of eligibility has been met to compete in a particular category. Frankly, I doubt that the general public will ever reach full acceptance for someone just partially transitioned from competing with those of their opposite birth gender.

On the controversy regarding trans athletes, it seems to me that some people enjoy grasping onto vague anecdotes that seem compelling on the surface but are full of nuance, in order to substantiate their prejudices. I offer two other examples of this practice:

1. Remember the woman who sued McDonald's because her coffee was too hot? Outrageous, right? Well, what most of us weren't told was that the water was served at 135 degrees and the woman had first and second degree burns on her legs when the coffee spilled in her car and that McDonald's had already received myriad complaints about scalding hot coffee.

2. Every time a police officer is caught on video beating up a suspect, people chime in and say, that criminal had it coming! Well, sure the criminal is a criminal but a cop is there to arrest people, not beat them to a pulp.

So, the next time someone complains about a transwoman athlete, remind them that said athlete is taking a cocktail of hormones that essentially shaves away any and all advantages that a genetic man might have over a woman of the same height and weight. Science is a stubborn thing.

The whole topic of how people regard crossdressers or transgender is way to broad for me to scratch the surface. Like J.D. Salinger once said, I don't have the answers, I only have questions.

I would put forth this question on transgender in athletics. What if all athletics merged the genders -- football, field hockey, basketball, volleyball, track and field, baseball, softball, soccer, etc. There would be no question of trans gender participation, as both genders participate together. How would that work out?

Hi Maria :hugs:, YOU JUST CAN'T FIX STUPID !!

>>>>>>>>Orchid**O:daydreaming:O**

Natalie5004 I feel the same way. Because I feel a certain gender dose not change the facts of my physical being. And it isn't fair or the same. And all the analogies that pertain to equality in no physical issues are as a whole invalid, and Transgender defines the issue no matter m/f or f/m you can't change facts due to "want to."

While there is plenty of room to debate how to incorporate transgender athletes into traditional competition, there is no debate that treating and even talking about transgender people in a mean spirited or derogatory way is just wrong.

Maria 60,

I think you've been exposed to an unfortunate truth. It seems (to ME!) that the LGBT* public acceptance you see or hear about so much these days is just a mask that many people wear because it is "socially proper" or "politically correct" and not because it's what they truly feel. Put together a bunch of these "nice" folks , add alcohol, and the masks start to come off. Let just one of them make a "non-PC" comment and see what happens. True feelings start being revealed, and it's usually not pretty.


I'm afraid we still have a LONG way to go.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MonicaPVD

So, the next time someone complains about a transwoman athlete, remind them that said athlete is taking a cocktail of hormones that essentially shaves away any and all advantages that a genetic man might have over a woman of the same height and weight. Science is a stubborn thing.

---

Muscle memory is a thing. You CANNOT ignore science. Yes, you would lose muscle, but you RETAIN more muscle in you transition post puberty. Somebody who has been practicing a sport since their early years and then transitions in their 20's for instance WILL have an advantage.

I tend to agree with Sara that there is a lot of phony support going around. I have observed the switcheroo in people.

I was in my usual grocery store and noticed an unusually tall woman with a very masculine face that had obviously been exposed to a bit too much sunshine. Obviously a male in women's clothes and therefore a sister of some type. I thought, " Go for it, girl." People looked and smiled and were polite which obviously made the trans person feel welcome and I thought was really great. She zoomed on down an isle to do her shopping and once well out of sight people shook their heads and grimaced and made comments and a few laughed. Two male store employees had a great time and created a little bit of a spectacle that made others laugh. I leaned in toward them and said, "A little tolerance of HER might be in order. I suspect your employer might not appreciate your acting this way."

Their jaws dropped and others nearby also reacted with surprise. I smiled at them and headed down the isle. A fine example of how people can be polite and then reveal their true self when the coast is clear. Disgusting. I used to be like them in order to hide my true self that I was battling and trying to get rid of. Then I accepted myself and all that negative thinking about the LGBTQ people vanished because I realized I was one of them (a "T"). This world is still so locked into a concept that males are men and females are women and there is a vast vacuum between them. Not so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Natalie5004

My comment to this subject are:

As a person that feels like a transgender person I do not think it is fair for male bodies to compete with women. We all know that our past hormones made us bigger and stronger. I feel that women that work super hard to get to the top of their profession sport deserve a fair fight.

---

Sigh...
Bodies that have been on HRT for any length of time, and most definitely bodies that have never gone through male puberty, are not "male bodies". I have several FtM acquaintances, and I can tell you that they most definitely have "male bodies". Surely you would not suggest that they should compete in "women's" division athletics.

Look, I was never a scratch golfer, but on the rare occasion that I connected with my driver, my tee shots would be out there with them. It is strength that generates the club speed required for that kind of distance. I can't make two thirds of that distance now. HRT changes many things, and among those things is muscle mass. I could never compete with men now, not even those with handicaps as high as mine was years ago.

If you want to be "fair", you have to recognize that not everyone is the same and that a blanket "no genetic males in women's sports" rule does not make sense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geena75

The whole topic of how people regard crossdressers or transgender is way to broad for me to scratch the surface. Like J.D. Salinger once said, I don't have the answers, I only have questions.

I would put forth this question on transgender in athletics. What if all athletics merged the genders -- football, field hockey, basketball, volleyball, track and field, baseball, softball, soccer, etc. There would be no question of trans gender participation, as both genders participate together. How would that work out?

---

Men would win everything.

For example, the Top LPGA golfer in driving distance is # 155ish on the PGA, 30 + yards lower , hundreds down on the tennis tour.

It is instructive that the Great Battle of the Sexes in 73 was between a 29 year old top ranked female and a 55 year old retired pack a day male.

It is not a knock on women just a truth of the human condition as other posters have noted, larger skeletal frame, a larger lung capacity , more muscle mass , higher upper and lower body strength etc. all these add up.

In golf, if men were allowed to play in the LPGA - ladies would probably never win again. A 150 yard chart is usually tougher than a 40 yard chip.

On average female athletic records are 90 % of men's. To my knowledge, there is no athletic record where women outperform men.

Our Adult Women's World Champion Hockey team plays 15 year old boys for tournament prep but there is no hitting allowed, despite this , the boys often win and would win every game if normal hockey rules were in effect.

But were the same boys to take on the Tampa Bay Lightning in normal rules, they might not get a shot on net in 60 minutes.

Studies of public park activity show males are apt to play competitive sports at a much higher rate than women.

I think you input was awesome. Let them think what they want as it's up to them to change it and what you said was hard hitting facts.
Good job!

Maria, I am glad you and your wife spoke up. I will agree with many others that people act "politically correct" and appear supportive of others, but, in private it is a different thing; disgust and hate arises. The issue of transgender athletes is a lightning rod on the issue as seen in many statehouses that have enacted laws restricting transgender youth and young adults in sports.

My experience in group settings is people make the assumption you think like them if you say nothing. I have a tendency to let people hang themselves and express their hate and disgust and misguided opinions before I give them a blast from my (verbal) shotgun. If you cut someone off too early in the conversation you really do not have a chance to educate them.

Maria,

I don't think anyone here is surprised by this as even those of us in the closet are highly aware of transphobic behavior we encounter in our daily lives. I don't want to think about how many haters their are out there.<shudder> I'd rather focus on places and people like here where we all don't agree on everything but most people are accepting of wherever in the gender envelope we as individuals fall.

While I understand all of this, if a male student said I'm trans I should play on the women's team tomorrow, I think they would still have all the strength and over power most of the players. I'm not sure where the dividing line needs to be but something has to balance this out.
It seemed this before in the trans acceptance battles. We want to fight the noble fight of acceptance for all, which is great. I still think we'd be better off finding those ideal situations where no one would argue something needs to be done and put our efforts behind those. Gaining some acceptance at the cost of others would give us a foothold in the door. Once people get used to the idea that it's just how it should be for some people then we could start explaining how others belong there too. I've said the same feeling about the bathroom rules.

I think people take sports way too seriously. Personally, I think it's a display of I'm better than you nonsense.

I've been in the middle of these mob hate discussions concerning transgender. People support their personal hate by creating a general rule from a particular event
which violates the first law of logic. I generally don't respond but when I do, I just mention that a very close family member is transgender.
True statement as I am my closest family member.

That changes the subject quickly.

I have never understood how people can be so closed minded when it comes to issues like this. There are examples all over the place where gender is not a true binary, in fact, I did a bunch of research for a story I'm working on and the result led to this paragraph, all of the points are documentable, so if you get into one of these situations in the future, pull out one of these:

"There's all kind of crazy stuff in this world, just go to Walmart at 2 AM and you'll see plenty, but that's not what I'm talking about. Did you know there is a slug that has a disposable penis? Yeah, it gets rid of it after it mates. There's even a worm that infects male Mayflies and turns them into girls, now how weird is that? Things like oysters changing sex as they get older and, in some species, when the leader of the pack dies, one of the others changes sex to take charge, now that's some freaky stuff, right? Fish, frogs, snakes, butterflies, birds and lobsters, hell, they all do it; earthworms can even be three sexes, male, female, and hermaphrodite at the same time and there's a snake that can get itself pregnant."

Why waste your time arguing with people? They are allowed to have their opinions, and arguing with them accomplishes nothing. You won't change their minds, and they won't change yours.

Given the world is burning down around us right now, I can't imagine why sports is such a pressing matter to anyone right now. We have more pressing matters that everyone, trans or not, need to focus on instead.

There is a difference between arguing and standing your ground when some ignorant person is spewing filth out of their mouth.

I have never argued with anyone about gays, if it is right or not, and I won't. I just state I have gay friends and don't have any issues with them. That pretty much stops the conversation.

What would the world be like if you didn't stick up for each other?

I think its more of an issue of what generation you grow up with . I was shocked when one day I found out what a HUGE racist my ex father-in-law was towards Asians,Germans and African Americans. He grew up in the 1930,and 40's . He served in WW2. We talked off and on for years , then one day, he flat out told me" Look, I'm too old to change how I feel about _________ and ________, you teach your kids what you want and hopefully the world will be better for it". It took me a long time to understand that some people won't change no matter what and until a majority of their generation passes away there won't be much change.

Trouble is, do we ever really know another person? So often there is a public face which is ?acceptable? and then hidden behind can be darker thoughts, beliefs. Alcohol can be a release valve. I suspect that nearly all of us harbour some beliefs that others might be surprised or shocked by. It does not make us bad, we might be lacking knowledge, experience. We might be fearful. We might never have really thought things through, discussed our beliefs. You were so right to say what you did. No real point in making more of it but put down your marker of what you believe. At the very least you know a bit more about friends. Well done.

WARNING! This post contains some references to things that MAY trigger others.

Prior to being let go in March 2020 due to Covid, I was working as a Temp worker for a company that sold gun parts, military memorabilia, and other things related to camping/survivalist enthusiasts. The owner and the majority of staff were very conservative and Right leaning. This was prior to my coming out and living as Jodie Lynne, obviously.

In the 2 years that I was there, I had to listen to the employees spew anti-LGBT+, anti-liberal, anti-Left, and plain racist statements, all while biting my tongue so hard, I almost bit it off!

But in all of that, the worst of the hate and vitriol was saved for the transgendered community. Pedos. perverts, molesters, I heard it all, and couldn't say one damned word because I needed the job. Worst of all was that my silence was taken for agreement.

In June of 2020, I got a call from my Agency, saying that the client company wanted to know if I was available to work. At this point, I was living as Jodie and my Agency was aware, I actually went on a couple of interviews as Jodie! I asked if the client was aware of my new status, and the Agent said she would call me back. Twenty minutes later, she called and said the client made a mistake and that it was another temp worker they wanted. Odd thing was, I was the ONLY temp with my given boy name working there! Go figure.

So for the people that think everything is hunky-dory, and all is peace and light in the world, think again!
The above is why I am opposed to hate speech laws; If we make it illegal, or socially unacceptable for people to speak their minds, then we DON'T eliminate the problem, we merely drive it underground. And I would prefer to know where the haters are, so I can protect myself and others.

We have to pick & choose our battlegrounds. If I had stood up to the haters, I would have been out of work at a time when I desperately needed a paycheck. And no, anti-discrimination laws don't apply, since my employer was the Agency, not the client. The client has a right to dismiss any temp, for any reason.

In closing, I applaud the OP and her spouse for speaking up, and I hope that they will re-evaluate their friendships with the trans-phobes.

Maria, I'm glad you held your ground. I have also stood up to people who spew hate. I don't think I changed any minds. But did the right thing.

Mod Warning.....

This thread is NOT about trans athletes but about how the OP/wife responded to a conversation.

If you want a thread about trans athletes, start one.

To everyone: Not just the last few that I've deleted.....

Stop taking this this thread off track or it will be closed.