Ethical survey: To tell or not to tell?

This subject came up in another post and I wanted to start a new thread to see
where everyone stands.

Situation: A pretty and passable twenty something male attends
a vanilla dating event dressed as a girl. She blends in and is chatting with several of the men present, although not leading them on.

Questions: Does she have an ethical obligation to tell a man she is not really a girl, and if so, at what point and how to phrase it?

Here's my answer, but there will be other valid points of view to be articulated.
It's a vanilla dating event so there will be some less than highly evolved males there looking to meet women. They will assume heterosexuality and may have already had a few drinks. To not tell a man the truth is a lie of omission which may cause him to lose face in public and respond with violence. Further, it makes even flirting an unconsensual act which could be seen as just using him for her amusement, perhaps justifying or amplifying his homophobia. If she goes farther, it's in the same category as rape.

At well over six feet tall, I'm not passable and do not seek male attention when I'm in public but if I were approached, I would say sometning like: "It's my first time out dressed as a girl." Which it isn't but now he knows the score and can decide whether he wants to continue. Also, if I were passable and if I wanted male attention, I would put up a profile on a trans dating site. Anyone who reads my profile would know the score up front.

So girls, where do you stand on this? Please chime in and keep it respectful.

If I'm at a dating event dressed en femme, others may assume I'm looking for a man. I would be certain to ensure any man showing the slightest interest in me was told immediately. If I were looking for a man, I might find him there and I might not. If I were there looking for a woman to date, I believe the first words out of my mouth would be, "Hi, I'm Heather. I'm a cross dresser and looking to date a lady who will accept me as such and support me in expressing myself. If you are such a lady, I'd love to continue talking with you. If you can't accept that in a man, I completely understand and wish you luck in your finding the right guy."

There is no reason to lie in the situation you describe.

It would be highly unethical to conceal that information. Frankly, I think it would be unethical even to attend such an event under false pretenses.

"Google" and check out the "gay panic defense." I agree with Kim.

Right...it does not seem to make sense for a male, no matter how passable, to go to a vanilla dating event en femme. It would appear the individual has other motives in mind, and would probably be interpreted that way by other men at the event. There are other events where you could attend en femme more appropriately. This scenario is not only unethical but is asking for trouble. I would hope this situation is not something that happens very often.

"vanilla dating event", Speed dating? The guys need to know.

Hmm. Good question.
Going to an event as you describe for just a social outing you could be excused for keeping your CD side quiet.
With the addition of alcohol any sign of the male wanting to hook up would have to be avoided or it could get ugly were you to reveal who you really are.

What Kim Said.
For a man to go to a hetero-based vanilla normal dating event as a woman is deception, pure and simple. If I were at such an event looking for a woman, and I took home a man by mistake, there would very likely be violence before the night was up. If I met a woman at the same event who immediately told me she was really a he, I'd ask what the **** are you doing here?!? And I'm sympathetic to the cause, so just imagine the reactions of "normal" men.

Ethical or not, for your own safety, tell up front, first thing out of your pretty mouth!

I think I'm right in saying that certainly in the UK, going about dressed isn't a crime, unless you do so to purposefully deceive for criminal purposes. Entering into a sexual act by deception would be considered such. "I thought he knew I was a man" wouldn't be a defence in court.

Not that long ago here in the UK a woman was jailed for dressing as a man for the purposes of having sexual relations with females.

To me, unless you very aware of the way attending people are with regard to this subject, which in the example situation you are likely not sure what their feelings or beliefs are, it would be highly unethical to conceal the truth. You are presenting as a Transwoman and you can't just assume everybody is on board the tolerance bus or recognizes your male features even though largely obscured by various means. I personally have met some who tried to conceal the truth and a couple ended up in the hospital. One almost died. Be honest as to exactly who you are - if a CD admit you are a hetero CD; if transitioning admit it. And recognize in some parts of the world and even in the most progressive city there are those that are terribly intolerant even though they seem safe. Most people today still think sex and gender are the same thing and some of them can be hazardous to your health.

This is a bad theoretical question. Because why would they be there unless they were looking for a man?

A better question is: If a CD goes to a bar or party and is speaking with a group of men. Then the answer I would give is.

My answer is no. Unless one of the men gets you off to the side and is really hitting on you. Then I would inform the person. If that does not stop them well where you go from here is your business......

If it's a Vanilla event then she should be upfront about everything, for her sake and theirs.
Were it an "open" situation then it's difficult to say. One might assume the attendees are aware.

I put this thread up there with all the other, "What if?", threads. Like, "What if u could become a woman tomorrow?"

Ethics have nothing to do with it. 999 times out of a 1000 the guy's hitting on u because he knows you're a CD or trans!:devil:

You absolutely have a moral/ethical obligation in that situation to tell the guy(s) right off the bat. Any other type of casual social situation not so much unless the guy is hitting on you believing that you're a woman.

Absolutely, tell.

When? As soon as you've got past the "Can I get you a glass of wine? Aren't these canap?s delicious?" part of the conversation.

I wouldn't even dream of putting myself in such a situation, and I think I'm pretty liberal and of the "Just f..k it!" mindset, but this is both dodgy ethically and potentially dangerous for the CD/trans-person involved. Proceed with extreme caution

Julia

This thread reminds me of those "only 1% of people can find the hidden word, can you?" posts on social media that featured a blindingly obvious answer that wouldn't even tax the mental acuity of an Afghan hound.

and Afghan hounds can see almost anything but have not the savvy of say a Border Collie. I think it's their long blonde hair.

I asked the resident CDer what he thinks about this thread. His response was the same as doc's.

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999 times out of a 1000 the guy's hitting on u because he knows you're a CD or trans!

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I wouldn't (and don't) go ANYWHERE while dressed if there are likely to be men there prowling for dates, and doubly so if there is alcohol involved. Ever. And I never dress intending to attract them any other time, nor look or act provocatively if there are any around if I'm out while dressed.
That sort of interest from men is the last thing I want.
But if it happened then yes - I'd tell them, and then decline or avoid any further advances. Or flee, if necessary.

Dating event for a quick, one night shag or a relationship?
Either way you should be up front before your second sip of your drink (after the first sip and introductions) to save both parties from a misunderstanding.

Well, anyone seeing me would know I'm a man, no quandary there.

Just speak to him in your normal, deeper male voice, without any of the inflections in speech that women usually have, that men do not. It will be quite clear that you're male.
An initial, 'Hey, haya doin', good tuh meetcha' with a strong firm handshake will remove any doubts. Walk like a guy with the slight swagger you see in the tough guy in westerns, instead of the swivel hip movement that women give off, will help give off the vibes that you're a guy.

Key word is Dating.

Just by attending a 'Dating' event, unless it's specifically a transgender/cross dressing event, your hypothetical twenty-something passable male is misrepresenting herself.

I'd say that event is a no go for her.
Just my opinion.

Not ethical in anything other than a generic social event where, of course, your birth gender is nobody's business.

I think I would pull her aside and let her know. That she needs to be honest about herself. It could get dangerous if she is misrepresenting herself and a man finds himself in an embarrassing situation.

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Originally Posted by char GG

I asked the resident CDer what he thinks about this thread. His response was the same as doc's.

Quote:

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999 times out of a 1000 the guy's hitting on u because he knows you're a CD or trans!

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This. :)

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If you're just going out for the evening to have fun and don't plan on meeting anyone again after the event, then I don't see any obligation to disclose.

But if anyone expresses interest in seeing you again, then of course you should tell, whether the other person is a male or a female.

ReineD,
this is going to be one of the few times that I find myself disagreeing with you - sorry.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

If you're just going out for the evening to have fun and don't plan on meeting anyone again after the event, then I don't see any obligation to disclose.

But if anyone expresses interest in seeing you again, then of course you should tell, whether the other person is a male or a female.

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I have to disagree because the OP posed the question as:

Quote:

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Situation: A pretty and passable twenty something male attends
a vanilla dating event dressed as a girl. She blends in and is chatting with several of the men present, although not leading them on.

Questions: Does she have an ethical obligation to tell a man she is not really a girl, and if so, at what point and how to phrase it?

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To me, this means that the person is not getting "clocked" as male and that the men she is chatting with are unaware who they are talking to.
In normal social settings this is a non-issue, since what she has in her panties is nobody's business anyway.

But in a "vanilla dating event" she is messing with people's heads - and that's just wrong. These guys are at least a bit interested in meeting Miss right (or Miss Right-now) and a male posing as a woman is , at the very least, wasting these men's time and it could get so much worse. Suppose some poor unsuspecting dude finds her really interesting or even desirable, what then? How does she tell the guy that she's "not really real" without doing damage - or getting damaged?

In my eyes it's as wrong as a married man attending that same dating event. Both might "pass" but both are misrepresenting to people who have a real interest in the outcome.

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Originally Posted by SaraLin

But in a "vanilla dating event" she is messing with people's heads - and that's just wrong. These guys are at least a bit interested in meeting Miss right (or Miss Right-now) and a male posing as a woman is , at the very least, wasting these men's time and it could get so much worse. Suppose some poor unsuspecting dude finds her really interesting or even desirable, what then? How does she tell the guy that she's "not really real" without doing damage - or getting damaged?

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Lol if he is interested to that degree, then he will make some effort to see the CDer outside the event and if so then he should be told, as I said. If it's just flirting at the event with no intention for any follow-up, then how would he know he has been messed with if the CDer is as "passable" as described. They'll never see each other again! :)

As to messing with people's heads, you must be careful to not assume that people's heads are messed with more than they are. Ultimately we don't know what goes on in someone else's head especially if we don't know them. How do you know this "vanilla" guy hasn't clocked the CDer and this is why he is so interested? Maybe he's the one messing with the CDer's head. :)

A lot of guys think they're "vanilla" until something happens to prove otherwise. :)

In the real world, guys hit on CDs occasionally. How you handle it is up to you - but if unsure if that person is aware of your gender status, it only seems appropriate to make it clear ASAP if the person is showing interest.

The part that bugs me is that I see no reason for a CD to ever attend a so called vanilla dating event which to me by definition is a social meeting between genetic men and women specifically for dating as the next step. It is not like a meet up to find an exercise buddy, etc. Of course if it were an LBGT sponsored event that would be different, but the premise of vanilla is clear enough to me. I would not go in the first place if I were on the market so to speak.

Sandi

I never attended a party where people were not aware of my situation.

That way others would search me out and engage in conversation for their entertainment and mine also.

Sometimes I would wind up with a partner, usually a girl and other times not.

Other guests always knew who I was and that I was not gay.

I did leave a party with a male escort on occasions but it was with a group and the poor guy only went because he could not find a girl.

On these occasions I did not mind being second best. :-)

Hey!, I was not trying to play with their feelings!, There was a bowling event I just went to play and to see how the other people would react or if I could fool some of them, but was not looking to start anything romantic/sexual with anyone. I don't see the need to reveal my "secret" unless somebody showed real interest in me, in that case I have no problem in telling the guy that I was not born a girl, and if for some reason he insists I just tell him that I am not interested in him. That's all, no drama.

A few years ago, before I came out as a crossdresser, I had something similar happened to me. She told me right away, and we actually ended up talking for a few months afterwards. I don?t know if that would have been the case if she had not told me.

When I go out I think people know what's going on mostly because of my height. Then there's the fact that many people know me so I'm sure word gets around. I don't feel the need to blurt it out loud the moment someone comes over to chat with me. In that respect I'm kind of casual about it. It depends on the conversation. I try to figure out if they know or not. sometimes it's obvious. Things don't get too serious too often but when they do if I exchange a number I make it my point to discuss it before there's any chance of us getting together Just the Two of Us. I found it a safe strategy to do so if we start texting or talking on the phone after our initial meeting. That way I would still up front but we haven't done anything yet. And when we do get together I make sure it's public a place I'm familiar with and I get to feel out the situation further. Besides those that just plain aren't interested or might be bothered by finding out later I also want to weed out the Curiosity Seekers and the I'm not gay but I want d Seekers. I at least want the potential for more than just fooling around. And they can't be embarrassed to be seen with me in public. Not that that should be an issue but it was once weirdly. I get a lot of attention and I guess he couldn't handle it.

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Originally Posted by Valery L

Hey!, I was not trying to play with their feelings!, There was a bowling event I just went to play and to see how the other people would react or if I could fool some of them, but was not looking to start anything romantic/sexual with anyone. I don't see the need to reveal my "secret" unless somebody showed real interest in me, in that case I have no problem in telling the guy that I was not born a girl, and if for some reason he insists I just tell him that I am not interested in him. That's all, no drama.

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So, now that the the jury is in and the purpetrator has revealed herself (See #32 below), we need to decide the appropriate punishment to be meted out. I think a spanking is warranted. Of course, with any really naughty girl like Valerie, there will need to be an element of humiliation for the punishment to sink in so let's spank her in public in a very short skirt. What do you say girls?