Wondering if any one has ever tracked this % ???
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Wondering if any one has ever tracked this % ???
How on Earth would that be possible? You'd be getting a self-selecting group of respondents from an already self-selected population. Statistically, its a chocolate fireguard I'm afraid.
That's no, Renee.
But let's assume that it's really, really low. Now if you want to count in reluctantly tolerant wives and girlfriends? That number won't melt as quickly as the first one.
We could at least take a straw poll. I have an accepting wife. I also had an accepting girlfriend long ago who was nice enough to say I had "good taste" in clothes and even offered me some of hers to wear once or twice. That makes two.
I think there are too many levels of "acceptance" to get an accurate %. However, you came up with a questionnaire that delineated the differences, ranging from "hostile" to "participatory" and gauged the percentages as compared to the number of respondents. Someone good in statistics could tell you how to do this accurately. A lot more to this than it seems, but could be a really interesting project!
I tend to agree with Kris - the use of the word "accepting" in the question is too vague to know how to measure it. Acceptance is not a state of being, but a process that is based on a nearly countless number of factors. Sadly, posing questions with "acceptance" being the subject is ambiguous and the resulting data would be worthless, even without considering the vast number of errors in statistical data and sampling theory. In my work I use complex statistics often and it is hard to sample data in a meaningful way that actually represents what you think it represents.
But I think I know what you are getting at. I suspect, but not know, that the numbers are not great. Socially, most people try to steer clear of things that carry a high cost of social stigma with them and cross-gender behaviors certainly do carry that. They shouldn't and in some societies and cultures they don't, but our world still pretty much operates on the "Men are from Mars and women are from Venus" kind of erroneous sex and gender binary thinking that has very little scientific validity. Crossing over from one side to the other is just "not appropriate behavior" to most people in Western Civilization. Women marry men for a good reason but if that man becomes more womanly the rationale for marrying him largely vanishes and the wife can feel like she has been left with a handful of water that is leaking through the little gaps between her fingers. She rightfully wants more substance.
That said, intolerance is declining some and tolerance is increasing, but it is still a non-traditional behavior that can carry a high cost in some groups and produce strong discrimination and intolerance in some local cultural environments. The more it shifts toward some kind of acceptance the more the opponents push back. It can get nasty and recently has.
Violating the foundations of a society can carry a high price, even though it is illogical, unsupportable, and discriminatory to not recognize humans are variable and some variations seem strange but are actually within the range of normality. The science says "gender and sex are not the same thing and one does not determine the other. Wide variation is normal." But, as often happens, emotions and tradition wins out when the foundation of the truth lies in complex scientific definitions and processes based upon mountains of supporting data that is hard to understand. That too, unfortunately or fortunately, is the way humans are. We love to associate ourselves with an identifiable group and share with other like-minded people our interests and beliefs. Sadly, on occasion that can degrade into highly emotional conflicts that can be very harsh and self-righteous and destroy people's lives. But, in the end, the truth usually wins out simply because it is founded in solid functions and principles based in how this Universe works. That can take a very, very long time to happen though.
Yeah, I think Julia is right; it would be effectively impossible to come up with some numbers. Maybe with a thoroughly funded research project it would be possible. I mean, the Kinsey Institute has been able to delve pretty deeply into things, so who knows.
My own rule of thumb is this; it's 30%-40%-30%. 30% reject it to one level or another, with the max negative of breakup/divorce on first knowledge. To be in this group, there's an active rejecting aspect to it. 40% are "tolerant"; neither accepting or rejecting. DADT relationships fall into this category. There's no support in this category, but no criticism either. Then there's 30% that are accepting to one level or another, with the max positive being active, ongoing support and encouragement, purchases, participatory makeovers, mani/pedis, etc.
For my anecdotal part, 5 women have fully known. 3, including my wife, are/were in the accepting 30%. 1 was in the 40%, and 1 in the rejecting 30%.
My wife accepts the fact that I am what I am, but has not said "boo" since the mid 1980's. She accepts the reality. Participation? Zero! As already stated, your sample is nothing more than a straw pole.
There is no way to accurately measure something like this.
You just have to use your intuition in your situation. For me I'd say it's actually 98%. I'm sure there are some concerns that aren't made public, but I never detect any.
At one time long ago, I came up with a scale of acceptance. This is the latest one that I could find a copy of.
Word Definition
Castigate to criticize (someone) severely or angrily especially for personal failings
Scorn to show contempt for
Abhor/Detest/Hate/Despise
Loathe/Abominate/Detest to dislike immensely
Forbid/Prohibit to order not to do or use or to be done or used
Criticize/Condemn to express one's unfavorable opinion of the worth or quality of
Dislike to feel dislike for
Disapprove to hold an unfavorable opinion of
Ignore to overlook or dismiss as of little importance
Tolerate to put up with (something painful or difficult)
Accept to agree to receive whether willingly or reluctantly
Allow/Approve to give permission for or to approve of
Prefer to show partiality toward
Favor to have a favorable opinion of
Assist/Support to provide (someone) with what is useful or necessary to achieve an end
Share to partake of, use, experience, occupy, or enjoy with others
Encourage to help the growth or development of
Cooperate/Collaborate to participate or assist in a joint effort to accomplish an end
Embrace to receive or accept gladly or readily
Appreciate/Admire to think very highly or favorably of
Enjoy/Adore/Relish/Love to take pleasure in
Desire/Lust/Crave to have an earnest wish to own or
It's certainly an interesting question, regardless of the impossibility of attaining empirical evidence with a conclusive percentage.
In addition, it would then be further difficult to actually define 'acceptance':
"Underdressing is fine, but nothing else"
"Women's clothing? Sure. But no makeup or wigs"
"You can wear my pantyhose but lose the boobs!"
"Get dressed up - we're going out"
As I said, it's still an interesting question to ponder
Cecily, what you posted rings home for me and pbly for a lot of others as far as "acceptance" goes ........................Debra
My wife is accepting, so 100% from my survey of me.
As one who has an accepting, supportive, participating wife, I would love to know how many others enjoy my good fortune. Count me in if somebody figures out how to do such a survey or poll.
Agree, 100%, that "acceptance" is probably too slippery a term to produce anything close to credible numbers. But given that stipulation, my off-hand estimate, based on the few years I've been here, I'd guess way less than 5%.
Lies, lies and statistics former UK Prime Minister Harold Wilson used to say in the 1970s.Statistics can be manipulated to suit individuals outcomes. I think the majority of private individuals would not even participate in the survey.
I don't have any recent numbers; The last time I went through it all, was back in the 1990's, when I was going through marital problems with my wife due to crossdressing. I had searched everywhere I could, and interestingly, came up with similar figures from most sources. What was fascinating, was the division, as follows; each category was almost halved from the previous one.
About 6% of all women, consider it okay for a man to dress as a woman, but would not want anything to do with him personally.
About 3%, were okay with knowing someone who was a crossdresser, perhaps a friend, uncle, child or nephew, but not a mate.
About 1.5% were willing to date a crossdresser. Now, when I brought the information to the therapist that we were seeing, she said that pretty much seemed accurate, as far as the patients that she had been seeing, with one more 'half'.
Half of the women who had come in with their crossdressing SO who thought that she could tolerate, eventually could not, and that couple split up.
So halfway all the way down the line.
Leaving us with, at that time, a 0.75% amount of the female population with which to attempt to find a mate, from.
Keeping this in mind, and wondering why, with so many of us as 'good men', honest, holding very good jobs, etc., would so many women (>99%, apparently), why is this such a big deal? Surely all the good things about us would easily out weigh this seemingly minor occasional behavior. AFter all, so many women date and stay married to men who beat them, treat them badly in so many other ways, why are WE so repulsive?
And so, I studied further; what is attractive to women, and what is not.
And I came up with the answer. It's basic, primal, instinct. Women are attracted to: Status; Assets; Reliability; Income; Appearance, especially size, virtually all women prefer men who are taller, an indication of potential physical ability to defend her should the need arise.
And they see in us, those of us who embrace feminine things and behavior, the likely hood that we will be less likely to fulfill those needs. Doesn't matter if we can. It's the instinctual feeling that we are simply less likely to have all those qualities, and more likely to lose them if we DO have them, that they instinctually feel makes us less desirable as mates.
In the words of my ex wife, while we were at the therapist together, when asked why my crossdressing bothered her so much: When I was dressed in girl clothes, 'He just loses something'; and her desire for me was gone. Once the desire is gone, so, too, can the love be gone as well ( or never develop). Because she feels the need to be loved, she will seek that out from someone else, instead of us, and the relationship, or the potential for any relationship, is gone.
After my divorce, when AOL was claiming 20 million members, AOL started 'Love at AOL'. Free personal ads and dating. I was already a member. So, why not? I placed an ad, mentioning that I was a crossdresser. The only responses I got, were from prostitutes, dominatrixes, and men. NO women. This would later also reflect my experiences on Match, Plentyoffish, Loveaccess, and a couple of other dating sites that I can't even remember the names of. Then, of course, the 'dateacrossdresser.com' site, which allowed contact but if you wanted to answer, well, THEN you had to become a paying member. Apparently they had 'shills', who would send out coercive messages in order to get unsuspecting hopeful crossdressers to pay up; which we did, of course. But when we respond either we would get messages back from the shill saying that she never sent the message, OR they would simply not answer back.
After the failure to get responses from the normal dating sites, I tried putting up two identical ads, one which mentioned that I crossdress, the other one, with a different username but otherwise exact same wording, that DIDN'T mention crossdressing, and the latter one would garner 20 - 50 responses a day. So I guess Straight me was perfectly acceptable, but crossdressing me, was not. And this continues to this day. On Plentyoffish, where they had a forum to discuss dating, when the women were asked, the responses were the same; they weren't interested in dating a crossdresser, and this at the time when that was the largest free dating site in the English speaking world.
So it appears that women generally have at least a subconscious feeling that men who behave in, or dress in, a feminine way, are simply less likely to be the kind of man that they want as a romantic partner. No, not ALL women, but enough for it to be essentially 'just about' all of them. For, the few who would like us, simply aren't going to broadcast that to the world. A crossdresser isn't exactly a high status mate; and as women still derive some of their social status from how 'good' of a husband she can catch, none of them will proudly proclaim that they 'caught' a crossdresser. Doctor? Sure. Lawyer? Of course. Investment banker? Obviously. Crossdresser? Apparently, not on your life.
So there's no way to find those few women, as they simply don't want to be known as 'the wife of a crossdresser'.
So take that for what you will.
Edit: For those of you who insist that I provide sources for the information I state here, well, I didn't seek out all that in a quest to put together a doctoral thesis or report, or a research paper to be published. I did it to hopefully figure out why my life sucked so much due to being a crossdresser, and I sure did find it. All the information is still out there for any of you, if YOU want to publish a paper on this topic. All the information I got, was from books, periodicals, published papers, other therapists, doctors, nurses, some of my patients, internet forums, alt. newsgroups, Compuserve forums, AOL discussion groups, and more. So feel free to do your own research if you doubt what I have written here, because you undoubtedly will find the very same information that I have.
Even if someone could figure out this number, it would be meaningless in practical terms, any relationship is unique and evolves and develops in its own terms. As I have mentioned here many times my girlfriend is a dream come true, specially in the crossdressing subject. She is more than accepting, she encourages me every day, up to a point that would seem a fantasy comparable to many crossdressing stories I have read in my life.
The point here is - if you surveyed her before our relationship started, she probably would have answered that she would not date a crossdresser. Its not about a category of people, or a behavior, it’s about two human beings admiring, caring and loving each other. And that why communication and honesty is so important.
Bad marriages are very common, and have nothing to do with crossdressing. I would treat this matter as any orher important subject in a relationship, from how you deal with financial matters, to beliefs regarding raising kids. Talk to exhaustion and be honest. Sometimes it won’t work!!!
Before trying to determine the percentage of "accepting SOs", one would need to define the term "accepting". "Accepting" could range from "it was her idea in the first place" to "grudging tolerance" and everything in between. And even the term "SO" needs to be defined because a woman's attitude can often change from the time she is a girlfriend and the time she is a wife and mother.
Further, acceptance can be based on the level of crossdressing. A SO might be OK with panties but not with a bra, breast forms, butt padding and a wig.
Some web software allows for polls (I don't think this one does), but even that would produce questionable results without the above definitions.
Krisi, you raise a good question and point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krisi
Maybe the answer is to allow the word "accepting" to be purposely fluid. "Accepting" could be defined to mean, "My wife, SO, GF, (partner), etc is accepting of my specific needs in cross dressing, what ever that need is."
That would allow the level of acceptance to be tied to an individual's need. i.e. to wear panties, or to sleep in nighties, etc, etc. If I am satisfied to only wear panties and bras, and my partner was accepting of that, then I could rate my partners as being accepting.
If my need or desire is to cross dress meant that I need to dress at least three days a week, with full femme attire, make up, and wigs, then my rating of accepting would be "yes" if my partner accepted all of that.
If my need or desire is to cross dress meant that I only need to keep my toe nails painted all the time, then my rating of accepting would be "yes" if my partner accepted all of that.
I have no idea if this would work but I am submitting this idea for discussion, along with so many other ideas submitted so far.
We may never arrive at a solution but it sure is fun to talk about it.
All I can say is my wife is accepting in that she tolerates it quite well. I'm 100% certain she would prefer I didn't CD; but, I'm also 100% certain she loves me such that my CDing will not damage our relationship/marriage. She now sees me daily/nightly in some degree of crossdressing. The only thing she's said lately was at the beach today. We were just sitting in beach chairs soaking up some sun when I leaned forward to pick up something. She said, "Pull your swim trunks up a little in back. Your panties are showing. Why are you even wearing them under swim trunks?" Other than some cautionary remark like that, she never says anything.
Personally, I have always felt that the percentage of accepting SOs is just north of zero. And that there really is no such thing as acceptance just vary degrees or level of tolerance (or intolerance). A high level of tolerance still does not equal acceptance but could be misconstrued as such by those wishful thinkers among us.
Karen, I don't know, but my wife has told me she will support me as far as I want to go with my CD'ing. Now it is possible she feels pretty safe believing I don't want to venture out of the house, reality might change her mind. But as of right now she is very accepting. I dress when I want, and how I want. Also, when we are shopping she has looked for clothing for me and we have bought high heels together at a shoe store. Plus she has done my makeup a few times.
Since you asked the question ....feel free to let us know the tally from the responses.
Ready set go!
I had an accepting ex-wife. I now have an accepting girlfriend
I would propose that 100% of our SO are accepting. "Accepting" having a broad range of degrees from knowing but not acknowledging to actively supporting and participating. That said, if a SO is totally not accepting to any degree, they would leave the relationship .... no longer being a SO, and thus not part of the pool.
I once worked with a statistician who told me that in statistics the correct answer can be anything you want it to be.
No idea what the overall percentage is but I have a boyfriend who is accepting, supportive and encouraging!
Claire, you must not read many of the posts!Quote:
Originally Posted by Claire M
There are many members here that are deep into hiding, so deep that The CIA could not find them! There are many wives that won't do DADT, just "hell no!" then the CD'er has to figure out how not too, and that never ends like it is planned, or go into deep cover and figure out how to hide it and wait for the day with the Mrs, finds out, or just end the relationship.
Pumped, I have read many post here, I also live in that same world. If the SO knows they are in a relationship with a CD and stays around, they are "accepting". As I noted, "accepting" has many degrees. My wife found out my "secret" 15 years into our mariage. That was 25 years ago. We rarely discuss it and she definitely does not support it but knows it will always be a part of me; something I can never stop. I would consider staying with someone that long as acceptance.
There are a lot of semantics in this question. If one has no knowledge they can neither accept or reject. If one has knowledge they can accept or walk away. They may not support but by staying around they accept.
All I can say is my wife is extremely enthusiastic to the point that I am dressed 24/7 and questions asked if I am not, it must be very difficult for those of you who would love to dress but have to hide the fact or face derision from those who are your loved ones
So you live and work as a woman? Aside from your wife, how do your family and friends feel about this?Quote:
Originally Posted by AmyJordan
There is sparse reliable sociological research on this topic but almost none is a good estimation just from the content on this site and of those who are
" accepted" - no wife will publicly admit their husband or SO is a CD to their friends and of those who are " accepting" it seems almost al are in " traditional male provider roles" and this is what the wife
insists on them being rather than " being themselves" ie the motivation to accept is material, no pun intended.
I am going to get in trouble - but Napoleon Bonaparte said "a Lady has no rank" by this he meant a women's power lies in femininity
When the most liberal woman I ever knew , whom I date din HS and UNI, who was a champion in the Arts Community - revered by the gay community as a supporter, she who was who was 10 million percent pro gay marriage, gay rights and pro transgender - but NEVER for her partner, and she freaked on my CDing after saying it was natural and to be accepted - It shocked me to the core ,
being naturally happy go lucky and industrious, I then knew not to give up a life of certain happiness and prosperity as a single for a very uncertain future and potential ruin in marriage.
We can only be what we are and asa TG man - I knew my odds were best as a bachelor and miss having children but
not the terrible animus in today's marital relations. -- I saw it coming by the late 60s.
No greater truth ever uttered, sometimes_miss.Quote:
Originally Posted by sometimes_miss
An irreconcilable dichotomy if I've ever heard one! 100% no from her, but 100% yes-style "certainty" from you. If there's a 100% non-preference for CD'ing, there's 100% likelihood of damage. (YCBMV = Your Cognitive Bias May Vary)Quote:
Originally Posted by Heather76
My heavens, but truth abounds in this thread. Couldn't agree more, Karren.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karren Hutton
Absolutely spot-on, and great move for you KellyAnne. There will be regrets, yes, but the net result is that you haven't been at war with another individual in close quarters for all eternity. The "terrible animus" you speak of is part and parcel of many modern relationships and -- at least in my mind -- requires an utterly useless sacrifice performed merely for a conventional social order that was unappealing from the get-go. Good on you and stay brave.Quote:
Originally Posted by kellyanne
I want to chime in here with yet another item that's not spoken of directly here (although a few girls have obliquely noted it in this thread): the powerful combination of finances and aging. It is a de facto proposition that any partner, be they male or female, who is trapped by economic circumstance and must simply grin-and-bear-it as a result, can never be a truly "accepting" partner. Acceptance requires an equally de facto freedom of action, thus acceptance via hard-lined cost-benefit analysis is hardly worth an emotional cent. To boot, if one's partner is far past the age (or energy-level) to engage in a "rebound" in search of another willing partner, then acceptance once again becomes rather hollow; I will repeat that that there is no real freedom of action there. As nearly anyone with a modicum of understanding about relationships will note: a partner will put up with the most enormous pile of "issues" or "problems" if the financial incentive to do so is ample enough and economic survival becomes the primary driving behavioral force. Overt co-dependency nullifies nearly all levels/varieties of "acceptance".
Incredibly (!), there are many girls on here who are in exactly the same boat. They can't fully "come out" because of financial fears usually associated with their job/career/livelihood. Thus, they "accept" their closeted position, even if it absolutely sucks! I often wonder if they ever ask themselves whether their spouses might be suffering under the same rubric, and I'd wager that many actually are. Both parties simply have to suck it up! But as everyone knows, anyone who has to "suck it up" -- be they crossdresser or "accepting" partner -- will undoubtedly exhibit some nasty behavior as a result and, thus, overt/covert pushback becomes the norm.
Again, I'm very much with Karren Hutton on this one: "the percentage of accepting SOs is just north of zero".