Live and let leave

About guys in beard and skirt (recent thread). I can't believe we're still judging how others dress. A guy can wear a skirt, dot. Live and let live. Or don't complain anymore when somebody points at you because you are not wearing the clothes of your assigned sex at birth.
You can't whine all the time that women have it all in the fashion department and choke on the first male biped daring to wear an item from the other aisle. Tolerance isn't a given, it's earned. If you aren't tolerant towards others, don't expect others to be towards you.
Seriously, grow up.

-- EDIT --
The title of this thread has typo. There is no pun. The intended title is "Live and let live". If a mod reads this edit and cares to fix it, you are welcome to do so.

I definitely preach "live and let live" where possible, but equally I get why people would be concerned with man in a dress - it can be seen as damaging to those who are trying to simply blend and fit in

Trans is highly politicised at the moment, and to the average idiot, a man in a dress with a beard is now a sexual predator who is looking to attack you in the ladies bathroom.

It's so sad.

I wish more men would wear skirts, as men, in public. If more did it would become more normal and more socially accepted. How this could be damaging to transgenders is beyond me. If I could do it without drawing attention, ie. if it was considered normal, I would, and btw I'd still use the men's room, because, duh?

Not everyone who wears a skirt wants to be a woman.

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Originally Posted by DianeT

Tolerance isn't a given, it's earned.

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What do you do, then, to earn other people's tolerance? And what would folks have to do to earn your tolerance, what exactly does it entail and why would folks want it?

I dunno. Some revising, maybe?

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Originally Posted by OrdinaryAverageGuy

I wish more men would wear skirts, as men, in public. If more did it would become more normal and more socially accepted. How this could be damaging to transgenders is beyond me. If I could do it without drawing attention, ie. if it was considered normal, I would, and btw I'd still use the men's room, because, duh?

Not everyone who wears a skirt wants to be a woman.

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Open your eyes. Read the room.

Just look at some of the anti-trans accounts on twitter. They're all using images of obvious men in dresses in order to ridicule, abuse and marginalise.

Also, way to take an isolated incident and then say it isn't damaging because if everybody did it, it'd be fine. Newsflash, people don't do it, so don't apply your made up scenario to the real world.

Amen to OrdinaryAverageGuy and DianeT, It's good to see that on this forum there are some who don't preach tolerance only for themselves.

Maybe one should clean up his own backyards before putting the blame on intolerant persons, especially wives... And by the way for whom it may concern stop criticizing women for not "looking good" by your standards too, we earn the right to wear what pleases us, we are not your sexy dolls anymore.

Anyway I am a fan of "men in skirt" fashion style. Go guys !

Patience it means exactly what I said. Don't expect tolerance if you preach intolerance. Preaching intolerance builds an intolerant world. Suffering from intolerance and/or discrimination doesn't make it legit to be intolerant and discriminating towards others in return. There are virtuous cycles, and vicious ones. Fashion police targeting men in dresses or social network haters who flame women with unshaven armpits belong to the second category.
If you prefer to put it that way, tolerance is a right, but it's also a duty.

Charlotte, then the problem is with the idiots, not the ones the idiots target. The right way to fix this is by taking a public stance and correct idiotic remarks, not by asking bearded men to stop dressing as they like (there may be limits to this reasoning, such as going out dressed like a hooker, but that was absolutely not the case in the example given in the other thread).

Diane, Very well put, so often we see people that want tolerance being arrogant and disrespectful if you do not share their view. It is a vicious cycle.
Respect for others and their views would be a step in the right direction.

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Originally Posted by DianeT

About guys in beard and skirt (recent thread). I can't believe we're still judging how others dress. A guy can wear a skirt, dot. Live and let live. Or don't complain anymore when somebody points at you because you are not wearing the clothes of your assigned sex at birth.
You can't whine all the time that women have it all in the fashion department and choke on the first male biped daring to wear an item from the other aisle. Tolerance isn't a given, it's earned. If you aren't tolerant towards others, don't expect others to be towards you.
Seriously, grow up.

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AMEN, Sister!

I seem to recall a saying about glass houses and stones...

It's amazing how many heads are in the sand here because it doesn't fit their narrative, and because they aren't being impacted

Why am I not surprised that it's the "I dont want to be a woman" poster who doesn't care about how trans people are impacted, but wants to shout me down as being unaccepting of how others want to dress.

I've never said don't dress like that. I've never said I won't defend somebody dressed like that.

I've merely told it how it is. Don't like it? I don't care.

I'll exit this thread now before I get a ban.

[SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by Crissy 107

Diane, Very well put, so often we see people that want tolerance being arrogant and disrespectful if you do not share their view. It is a vicious cycle.
Respect for others and their views would be a step in the right direction.

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Yes, and funny how those same people aren't respecting my view.

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Originally Posted by CharlotteCD

I definitely preach "live and let live" where possible, but equally I get why people would be concerned with man in a dress - it can be seen as damaging to those who are trying to simply blend and fit in

Trans is highly politicised at the moment, and to the average idiot, a man in a dress with a beard is now a sexual predator who is looking to attack you in the ladies bathroom.

It's so sad.

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What about a man in a kilt?

While I totally agree that the great unwashed masses may not distinguish between a 'Man is a dress' (or skirt) and a transgender woman, you seem to be leaping to some conclusions as quickly as the muggles do. What makes you conclude that the individual observed would even think of going into the Ladies room?

In the other thread that sparked this conversation, the OP stated that they saw a bearded man in a skirt, and other than an article of clothing, we have no way of knowing if that individual was attempting to blend in, pass as, or identify as a woman. If that individual needed to use the restroom, which one did they enter? We don't know.

There are many folk out there that make fashion choices we may not agree with (guys with their jeans halfway down their butt, anyone?), but what does it cost YOU (general pronoun, not highlighting anyone in particular)?

I woke up to the thread and feel sick over it.
Char was battling it trying too remove the worst then gave up. ( we can only do so much then give up)

I posted in it and here are my questions to those that had so much intolerance for others.

Do you have so much guilt on your dressing you belittle someone else?
Or it is not how you do things so you think you are better?
Are some jealous that someone is so free? Some of you are afraid of your own shadow and only wish to go out?..is it jealousy?
This happened a few times recently with Drag Queen threads….the hate
You all want acceptance , You write posts on that is your biggest wish to be accepted by your wife or family.
And yet you act like this ?
Explain to me WHY?

Thank goodness most here are not so judgmental on others …...I would just give up.

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Originally Posted by CharlotteCD

Open your eyes. Read the room.

Just look at some of the anti-trans accounts on twitter. They're all using images of obvious men in dresses in order to ridicule, abuse and marginalise.

Also, way to take an isolated incident and then say it isn't damaging because if everybody did it, it'd be fine. Newsflash, people don't do it, so don't apply your made up scenario to the real world.

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Read the room?

Yes, I do, and I'm well aware that a certain party in the U.S.A wants to eliminate, marginalize, and illegalize the LGBTQ+ community. And that they will take everything and conflate, inflate, and denigrate us all. Even if there were no 'men in dresses', drag queens, or crossdressers, there are people who would villainize the trans community. BECAUSE they don't agree with us and FEAR us, because we are different from them! And there is absolutely NOTHING that we can do to stop them, except to give up who we are in order to appease the haters.

Are there folk out there who bring shame to the community? Yes. sadly, there are. A CD or transwoman who parades up and down the street in front of a school, shopping mall, or playground, wearing an outfit that would make a hooker blush? Yes, there are some, and I've seen them.

While I totally agree with ?live and let live?, I believe we?re in a very opinionated politically divided society. My sense is the growth of being judgmental is growing. If one doesn?t agree, it seems you are the one that?s ?wrong? and are judged/condemned and maybe punished. The increase of ?road rage?, aggressive driving, yelling, etc. are further examples of intolerance. I enjoy going out, but our small community would have a field day if caught. It?s not worth the risk. JMO.

NO POLITICAL TALK IN THIS SECTION. No complaints on how others dress BOTH Per the rules.
We allow political when it about TG rights ect in the MEDIA SECTION . ( read the requirements for that section.)
Let’s not have another thread closed because of that.

Seem like we cannot talk about serious things without fighting.
Since editing, deleting and closing threads when they go off the deep end we might have to give time outs as I cannot sit here and babysit all day.

NO MORE BACK and FORTH, we have your opinion the first three times you posted.

The wonders of the human mind. The same person who cries out "no one understands me!" and "why don't people accept me for who I am?" will, moments later, point out others for being nonconforming. Priceless.

As a long time CD'er I have 70+ years on this earth and 60+ years CD'ing. This is what I know to be true. Loving people accept others. Haters reject others. We will know them by their fruit. In a polarized world there is little room for tolerance anymore. People are moving to one extreme, or the other. Everyone has to choose, and most are not choosing wisely.

Interesting little tidbit. Lots of research, much of it conducted by social media companies themselves, has documented the pervasive and detrimental effects of social media on peoples attitudes. The algorithms that decide what items get promoted to the individual have been designed to maximize those that elicit anger and fear. Over and again, these have been shown to reinforce prejudices and inflame anger?.left and right.

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Originally Posted by Jazzmin

There are many folk out there that make fashion choices we may not agree with (guys with their jeans halfway down their butt, anyone?), but what does it cost YOU (general pronoun, not highlighting anyone in particular)?

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Let me offer a life lesson I got in that regard. My son, in his late teens/early twenties, sported that look for a while. In my entitled boomer mindset, I walked up behind him and attempted to pull his pants down, thinking it would be a good joke, and that it would teach him a lesson. They didn't come down. instead, I got a quietly indignant, logically well reasoned lecture on bodily integrity, personal autonomy and the arrogance of assumption. I was the one who got schooled.

I had no response. I stood there looking at him, realizing to myself, "my son is an adult." I was a lot prouder of him at that moment than I was of myself.

To learn from others, even if you think they are mistaken, you need to keep your mind open enough to at least consider their viewpoint.

April Rose, I was working in a convenience store when a man and his teenaged son came in. The boy was sporting the "jeans down my butt" look, he took about 10 steps before his jeans slid down his legs and he tripped and fell on his face.

The Dad looked and me, pointed to his son, and said "Don't worry him, he's a jacka**!" We both laughed as junior picked himsel up off the floor, pulling up his pants. The Dad looked at junior and said: "aren't you cool? Junior was as red as an apple and scurried out of the store to hide in Dad's truck. Dad and I shared a good laugh.

Sometimes, ya just gotta let people fall on their face.

Most woman don?t wear skirt. During a normal day. Count the number of woman wearing skirts at the mall, food store, But us crossdressors just are waiting to put a skirt on. We don?t want to look like a woman, we want to be sexy?

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Originally Posted by DianeT

The title of this thread has typo. There is no pun. The intended title is "Live and let live". If a mod reads this edit and cares to fix it, you are welcome to do so.

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I think 'Live and let Leave' is a great title!

Leave others in peace to get on with their lives!

To me wearing a skirt is to be feminine. To most women unless they have to dress up for work, wearing a skirt is just a hassle. Shaving their legs, not thinking they look good in a skirt or dress, or the workplace is not conducive to wearing a skirt or dress. I know my late wife hated to wear a dress and never wore a skirt. So I was the one that wore skirts and dresses. which was fine with her and made me happy.

The Hoollywood types are wearing skirts in public. I say a photo of Brad Pitt in a skirt and a beard. Who cares? Wear what you want and do not judge.

Brad Pitt
Oscar Isaac
Pete Davidson
Russell Westbrook
Kanye West
Jaden Smith
Vin Diesel
David Hasselhoff
Ed Westwick
Liam Neeson
Redfoo
Odell Beckham Jr.
Harry Styles and Billy Porter all appearing in skirts, in various levels of gender expression have done nothing but good for us as far as I can see.

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Originally Posted by Jazzmin

What about a man in a kilt?

While I totally agree that the great unwashed masses may not distinguish between a 'Man is a dress' (or skirt) and a transgender woman, you seem to be leaping to some conclusions as quickly as the muggles do. What makes you conclude that the individual observed would even think of going into the Ladies room?

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I wear a utility quit quite a bit. I see it as quite the opposite as crossdressing. I have never gone into a ladies room wearing a kilt, only when crossdressed and people resenting as a women. Interestingly, I have had more negative comments from mouth breathers when wearing a kilt than when crossdressed.

1. People have the right to dress how they like, as long as they don't violate public decency rules.

2. How a person dresses says a lot about that person and zero about anyone else. A man in a skirt and a trans person are 1000% different things.

3. Bigots are bigots. They need someone to pick on and currently trans people are the latest whipping boys and girls. The way to stop bigots is to allow individuals to dress as they choose, because after all, IT IS ONLY CLOTHES, AND CLOTHES HAVE NO GENDER.

4. Tolerance for me, but none for thee.

5. If someone wants to "dress like a hooker", then we shouldn't be sneering at them, because we are not the judges of what is proper or not, because otherwise you're as bad as the bigots.

By "dressed as a hooker" I meant PG-13 attire, just to be clear. The actual limit is what the law forbids.

The problem here on this site and this thread is the same as it is out in Vanilla Land. People judge! Whether or not we want to, we do!:sad:

The reason I rarely wear masks out to T events is because dressers freak out the same as Muggles do!:eek:

I can't tell u how many of my T friends have said, "U don't need a mask." I tell them, "Yeah? Well, u go out without a wig and makeup and see how u feel!":tongueout

And, when a newly out of the closet CD.comer met me and our T crowd for dinner? Some were openly displeased, even embarrassed that she wore no wig or makeup!:thumbsdn:

So, "Live and Let Live", or, "Do as I say, not as I do!":straightface:

well I Guess in some respects we feel what we feel..but, as a crossdresser whose main goal is to approximate the appearance of a natal woman as best I can , I sometimes see other cross/trans women who don't. I see it, I note it, but I certainly would never presume to comment on it. Hey, You Do You, Sister.

There are hundreds if millions, if not billions of people in this world who DON'T want to live and let live. They want to live the way that THEY want to live, and YOU live as they think you should. Having been rudely disappointed in how the world has remained so screwed up since I grew up in the 1960's believing that everything would get better if we all just gave peace a chance, nothing of the sort has happened, and the violence against our own citizens in my own country (U.S.A.) has increased because some people insist that others do as they want them to.

Sometimes I take the doors and top off the Jeep and drive around with the wind in my hair. Is that somehow damaging to the lives of bikers who also have the wind in their hair?

How then is a man with the courage to wear a skirt in public damaging to someone who is transitioning? Seems like apples and oranges to me.

My kids used to wear these ridiculous Tripp pants, baggy oversized monstrosities with zippers and chains and all kinds of bling hanging from them. So what, at least the waists were fitted right and they didn't fall down in the convenience store!

I see men wearing clothes that I think are ugly. Same with women. Or shirts with political or religious comments that I disagree with. Should I have the right to judge them because their fashion sense or opinions differs from mine? Live and let live, and more power to the guys and gals that are braver than me to wear what you want!!

-Mods, I don't believe this qualifies as "back and forth", but do what you must if you disagree. I promise not to comment on this thread again. :)

The reality of this is, society has customs. They vary a bit by country and religion, but they are customs none the less. When people violate those customs, they will stand out and other people will notice and may talk or complain. Some of the customs relate to clothing. In the western world, men are expected to wear pants, not skirts or dresses. Women can wear either.

When we violate these customs, we can expect to draw attention to ourselves and we can expect negative comments and reactions.

It's unrealistic to think that complaining in a private Internet forum will change this.