My Ex: A real woman wouldn't wear that...

I met my ex-wife in the summer of 1997. We were 18 and it was love at first sight. Within two weeks of dating I told her I felt like I was transgender. She started crying and said if I wanted to stay with her I wouldn't be allowed to be trans. I loved her so much I agreed not to be trans and not dress around her. She knew I would crossdress behind her back and it was an 'out of sight, out of mind' situation. I was with her for 23 years and she would frequently state, "A real woman wouldn't wear that" when she would inspect my wardrobe (while I wasn't allowed to dress around her, she kept track of what I owned). This applied to pretty much everything regarding anything feminine. This did not only apply to my personal closet, but to society as a whole. She would declare that 'real' women don't wear dresses or skirts. Women don't wear high heels; nor stockings. Females don't wear makeup or paint their nails and they would never wear any lingerie or anything with satin. She would tell me she is trying to help me with my wardrobe and make me blend into society better. She would advise if I was to wear women's clothing it would be best to wear jeans, sneakers, and a plain t-shirt. That is what she wore all the time. I was confused. When we were out in stores I would point out that there were racks of dresses, nice blouses, makeup counters, and high heels. Some places even sold stockings, and lingerie. She firmly would reiterate that women don't buy that stuff. I couldn't believe that the mall, Walmart, and other department stores would devote so much space and inventory for clothing aimed towards crossdressers and transgender people. If women don't buy or wear the clothes why would stores try to sell so much of it? I knew she wasn't correct, but at the time I let her beliefs own me.

I would point out that I would see women in makeup at all sorts of places. I work downtown and told her that I see several women every day wearing heels, and dresses. She would educate me by pointing out that those women are office 'hussies' trying to get promoted and having affairs. Women that would paint their nails are trying to 'horse' around (not sure if I am allowed to type what I actually mean but the word rhymes with door). According to her, while these were women they weren't 'real' women. I countered her arguments with regards to her mom. Her mom was very feminine. I remember when we were in our early 20's her mom wanted to go out to the mall; just the three of us and get some lunch. Even though it was a Saturday, she wore a blue satin blouse, a black skirt, black hose, and high heels. I pointed that out to my ex later on and she explained it away that her mom was from the previous generation where it was normal to be feminine and our generation it was normal to be as plain as possible.

As can be surmised, she wasn't/ isn't feminine at all. The only time she ever wore a dress was for our wedding. She never painted her nails. She rarely wore makeup. There weren't any heels, lingerie, and no stockings in any of her drawers. I learned the hard way to never buy her lingerie or a lacy bra for a present. I admit that her insistence and her tutelage had a negative affect on my personal style. I would wear dresses and lingerie in private but would be so confused about what to wear the rare times I went out in public. Maybe not such a big deal back then, but it is impacting my life negatively now.

We divorced in 2020. When she walked out the door she told me that there aren't any women on the planet that would tolerate being in a relationship with a transwoman. She was wrong. It was only three months later I met the most amazing woman. Not only is she accepting and supportive of me, she reached out to me BECAUSE I was trans! I started living as Lisa full time. I started taking HRT. I changed my name legally. I got married wearing a wedding dress in November of 2022! Despite my current wife being so supportive of me, 23 years of negative teaching by my ex has impacted my self esteem in regards to style. There are items I want to buy but I hear my ex tell me that I can't wear them. I have several outfits that just sit in my closet untouched because I know my ex wouldn't approve of them. I had breast augmentation surgery over two weeks ago and I couldn't wait to wear my v-neck blouses. Yesterday I had an appointment with my therapist. I put on jean shorts, a v-neck casual satin top, and sandals. I loved the way it looked. I couldn't believe that I could actually see cleavage. I thought it was so feminine and I looked amazing. Before I stepped out the door though, I heard my ex say (in my head) that a real woman wouldn't wear that so I changed into blue jeans, a pink t-shirt, and tennis shoes. It looked okay, but not what I really wanted to wear. I talked about this in therapy that I just can't shake loose my ex's control over me; even though she shouldn't have any control at all. My therapist insists I wear the outfit to my next appointment. I promised I would try.

This thinking and constant doubts annoy my wife. She is rightfully upset that I let my ex control my style and I disregard her input. I admit I am way in the wrong. My ex and I occasionally see each other when there is an activity for the kids (I have custody). I make sure to dress as plain as possible, but if I want to blend in (pass) at all I have to wear makeup. Every time my ex sees me, she makes a comment about how bad my makeup looks or that there isn't any reason to wear any at all. When we had our court appearance over custody last month, she made a comment that I overdressed by wearing heels; she wore sneakers.

I do manage to push out my own style occasionally. My wife and I went on a 2 week Hawaiian cruise for our honeymoon. I wore skirts and dresses to dinner almost every night. I went all out during the formal nights and wore a black sparkly dress, black hose, and high heels. I received compliments from fellow passengers all night. I felt so pretty and feminine! I was proud of myself because I never even thought about my ex's opinion as I was getting ready. I do recognize that there is a vast array of styles regarding femininity. My wife wears makeup, dresses, and even lingerie. She thinks I look beautiful and sexy when I do. I know there are millions of CIS women that do wear feminine items or stores wouldn't try to sell them. I think deep down I know it's okay to be feminine.

Does anyone have any advice on how to accept my own style? I am right that there are plenty of CIS women that do wear feminine clothes aren't I? And why am I giving power to someone that held me down for 23 years?

Thanks for being here and listening.

Lisa

I have no advice for u, Lisa. I can only confess your post made me tear up!:cry:|

I wish u happiness because u deserve it!:thumbsup:

I can easily understand why she is your ex.

Oh I hear you Lisa, not only in dressing. I will admit that high heels are rare these days but they are out there and I agree that shops wouldn't sell these things if no one was buying them. There are lots of other things in this world that apparently no one does but yet I see the industries selling things and making billions. I suppose it's like litter, no one drops litter but yet there still seems to be an abundance of it. Also every magazine you look at shows women dressed in nice things and there are articles every day on how to dress better or how have better sex etc (another thing that no one does) lmao
I agree that wearing stockings heels and a dress to a mall is going to attract some attention as guys miss that stuff and are on the look out for it as they to are being told by their wives that no one wears dresses or heels but wearing a dress and blending in is the way to go. Listen to you new accepting partner I don't think she will put you wrong.

Another example of how your ex was wrong in saying no one does that. Your current partner is prof that accepting people do exist. You are blessed enjoy it

Mod Hat
I realize the OP is expressing how controlling and belittling the ex was.

But remember this when replying
Per the rules
Ridiculing members/non-members, or the manner in which they express themselves. This includes any complaint about the way females, males, transgendered, or any other cross-section of the membership dress, the way they express themselves (such as spelling and language skills, and any mention of religious beliefs, political preferences and affiliations, sexual preference, etc.)

If it continues to be that the thread will be done .Complaining how you wear heels and dresses and your partner does not and how much more feminine you are than your wife will not be tolerated.
Wear what you like, let others be themselves as well.



Member me reply
Sorry you lived through such a controlling relationship.
Everyone should be accepted for who they are.
Glad you found someone that accepts you.
I hope with your acceptance you will fly free and find yourself.

With my Sher she did .

Do not let her words live in your head another minute.

Lisa - try this
dress up with nice dress everyday and take pictures and put it on your wall
the more you see your beauty, the past in your head will get deleted

It would seem to me that you've reached at point in your life where you need to draw a line, take a deep breath and step over it. The past becomes just that, the past and you're in the here and now with a wonderful partner for company.

Don't sacrifice what should be a wonderful future on the alter of times passed. It's your life to live the way you want. You've been gifted a golden opportunity in finding this new relationship so make the most of it.

That voice you hear is just the same as that which whispers "The mob is waiting for you with burning torches and pitchforks". Not to be believed. Time to move on.

Excellent suggestion from siva! I found not only taking photos but receiving compliments from others who may see them can be a real boost to confidence. Seeing what other CD/TG persons have done in this arena can be a source of great inspiration as you develop your own presentation. I've also found, as I think you have, that allowing your feminine side to flourish is a great way to vanquish negativity!

Lisa, I think you interpret femininity in ways many crossdressers do and that is a misconception. When you say that your ex wasn't feminine I think many GGs would disagree and tell you that she is feminine by virtue of being female. The clothes have little to do with actual femininity, if you consider that femininity is the female essence, or at least what typically characterizes girls. Even if you take the latter definition, your ex is mostly right. Except in special occasions, few girls will wear stockings or heels nowadays. I confess that in France, when summer comes, you will see floral dresses everywhere, but with sneakers at the feet (again, your ex right about sneakers).
Your definition of femininity seems to be linked to older stereotypes, and definitions by which a girl isn't feminine unless she wears dresses or heels are disconnected from the modern world and seem to only survive in little circles of crossdressers and masculinists who consider that a real woman can't go out without spending 2 hours in the bathroom and dressing closet first. These days are mostly gone, but when I see more and more young girls going for the Instagram look, it seems that they may be lurking still.
Now let's be honest, I love most of the stereotypes that you love, and I especially like to dress in dresses, hose and heels. But I keep in mind that they are stereotypes from the past, a definition of outer femininity that is in my head not in GGS', and while I find nothing wrong in abiding by them in my privacy, I would certainly not go out like this in a non-mundane setting (but I don't go out anyway, so), nor tell any girl that this is the way to be feminine.
Now, it is clear that your ex was pushing the argument a bit with no painted nails, only tee-shirts etc. The thing I don't understand is why you didn't try to understand why she was pushing it that way. Because it is obvious that she was in discomfort about these things and sending a message. Saying that actual women do not paint their nails or wear dresses anytime seems to be a reference to what YOU were doing, and maybe she wasn't actually telling you that real (note the term 'real', opposing to you as a CD) women wouldn't do what you do. Maybe it was a way of telling you that she didn't like what you were doing. Maybe you should have asked how she felt about it. Maybe the apparent full nines you were doing was too much for her. Maybe she felt like she had, or that you expected her, to compete with you and wear 'feminine' stuff as well, and didn't want to, so she tried to justify it by explaining that she was just a normal girl wearing normal attire for a girl. I don't know that many girls have stockings in their drawers, pantyhose yes, but stockings... so maybe you were raising the stakes high in terms of expectations, to a point that was out of reach for her without losing herself in the process.
Did you ever asked her how she felt about it, why she was using these derogatory terms about other women doing this or that? What was the message there?

Lisa,

You have come a long way with acceptance by your wife. She loves you as you are
be thankful, you should be proud and very happy....

Davina

If if were me, I would try to wear what my current wife likes on me most of the time and count my blessings. Then next time the ex makes another comment, you can say my wife dressed me. But seriously , did you not enjoy getting the positive feedback from the people on your cruise? People do notice when one overdresses, but it can be a positive experience. Focus on that and the past will fade away.

Good luck to you.

Sandi

Lisa, I do not think this is a type of dressing issue to feel a certain way. This goes much deeper to an issue of control asserted by your former wife. She needed that control to keep you in your place and prevent you from doing something that is a part of you and that gave you freedom to be you. You have now achieved that freedom with the help of your current wife. You were subjected to that abuse for 23 years. It will take a bit longer than three years to find your self again. Fortunately it seems you have a great support person now and are on the way despite previous brainwashing. Try this experiment. The next time you go out as a couple, ask your wife to lay out your outfit. You will be delighted. Best wishes.

Davina is correct, you have the acceptance and love you deserve. Leave the past in the past, time to look forward.

The past is past. Although it can and does affect you it is not necessary to relive it. You currently have an accepting mate; the other one is gone. You can choose to live in the present and put aside all the past events that held you down. They will still be there but don't pay attention to their influence. As others have said, there are ways to use your preferences to create a positive experience and a distraction rather than playing back the past expectations in your new and current world. Choose to Live in the present. It may take awhile for your brain to create a suitable pattern and approach to life, but by changing your thinking you can change the way your brain works. In a way you have to teach your brain to think in the way you prefer to go. Sounds weird, but it does work. You should notice a difference in just a few weeks or even days if you deny your brain's desire to continue with the past pattern of thinking.

YES there are many cis women that are understanding, accepting and so supportive. My wonderful wife is the most helpful, supportive woman ever. First marriage was so not that way. And I to have baggage from my first marriage. Be Bold. Be Confident. You are so much more than your ex could ever imagine. Congratulations on your new found wonderful like. Embrace it, her and yourself. The past is just that. The past. Let it go with a big ol smile.

Sounds like her "A real woman" comments were designed to keep you male in your clothing.
All the truly feminine things she would downplay and that would keep you looking more like a guy for her.

Since you are not under her "power of suggestion" any longer, Just Be You.
Not every woman wears a dress every day. Not every woman wears stockings all the time. Not every woman wears makeup, or even needs it.
What you wear and how it makes you feel is most important.

Be you.

LisaMarie,

Your wife is justified I think in feeling upset. It's as if she's fighting against your ex, and your ex isn't even there. But, this is a deeply seated emotion. It's not going to go away easily.

Your ex is a real woman. But, what she defines as "real" works only for her, and nobody else. She doesn't get to define what "real" is for anyone else.

A long time ago, I had a long term relationship with a woman who strongly disapproved of my crossdressing. For my part, what helped me to get past her negativity was internalized anger towards her after I broke up with her. I've never voiced it to her, only to myself. It's the attitude of "**** her, she will not define me anymore!" and I've held to that since. I've not allowed her to live rent free in my head, not allowed her negativity to cloud my mood, and I've not allowed her attacks on me to cause me to doubt my gender identity, or who and what I am. She doesn't have that right and never did.

Your ex was wrong about you finding someone who would accept you being trans. In so far as you are concerned, she is wrong about everything else too. Easier said than done, I know, but put her in the past where she belongs.

The answer is real women make individual choices just like everyone else.

Lisa, I agree with Siva, dress up, take pictures, put them in a prominent place where you can see them every day. Also be happy that your current wife is as supportive as she is and dress the way she wants you to. Your ex is in no longer in your life, with a rare exception, so listen to your current wife she is there with you and loves you just the way you are. Celebrate that and live life to the fullest!

As usual nobody cares about the ex, and it doesn't seem to matter that we only have one side of the story. Non accepting wives are visibly expendable for many of us, get all the blame (even quasi-insults in a post above) and once a member has it his way, all is well in the best of worlds and the rest can go to hell. Maybe the past is the past, but when old habits endure, it may very well become future then present again.
As for me, I find this total lack of empathy, this obliteration of anything that remotely looks like a GG with diverging views on the CDing absolutely disturbing. If I am the only one, so be it and thanks for reading.

That ^^^ and no you are not the only one I was hoping someone would say it .. It's a large reason why I don't participate anymore .
This happened to me so many times in so many places all over the internet by my husband that I was placed in danger by a chaser who actually came to our house to give me the business . That's right my house

It was clear that my husband should have shut his mouth and that he had lost control of the situation . Some will do anything for validation . Anything . Be careful of what you say and where you say it . People are crazy these days . Both pro and con .

You better believe this is only one side of this story .. just because you wear women's clothes does not make you( not directing this at anyone in particular) a special saint . Sorry .
Not to mention the fact that in the courtrooms I have been in Texas and California you aren't even allowed to wear sneakers or tennis shoes etc unless you are already in jail and have on jail shoes/slides/jail flip flops ..and some of this language is not female as well . Maybe its different in your state but not where I have been.

Anything any of you have to say to me take it to PM . I'll answer when I feel like it .

If my ex ever told me I shouldn't wear something because that's not real women wear, I'd double down by not only wearing it, I'd also drive to her house and tell her I think I look pretty darn nice in it. She's your ex for a reason. She may have controlled your thoughts while you were married; but, the divorce decree set you free. Listen to your current wife. That is who loves and supports you. What else do you need to know in order to shed the burden of the ex? Nothing!!! Be the happiest Lisa you know how to be.

Given that attacks are happening on people actively posting in this thread, either the attacking posts need to be deleted/modified or the thread needs to be closed. Disagreement is one thing. Open attacks is quite another.

I could relate to you but not with dressing just having a person being persistent and pecking and pecking to finially it's imbedded in your head. I grew up with a negative mother and taught I do nothing right and never will. When my wife meet me we were 17 and when she heard the way my mother would talk to me she told me not to listen to her and that I was a great person and to ignore the negativity. It was imbedded in my head and still at the age of 60 it's still at times there and my mother now at 90 still reminds me that I'm good for nothing, even though I do everything for her. Even my own children tell me I must have been so head strong to deal with that and even question how I didn't end up in the crazy house. My mother doesn't hesitate to tell my children what a good for nothing I am but my children tell her they have the best dad ever and is always there for them.
I feel for you only because the pecking and the pecking sticks in the head and fortunately I have a supportive wife just like you do but at times you still hear the past. I always try to surpress it but for some reason it still there. I'm so happy hearing that you meet an amazing women now and hope our past doesn't effect our future.

Your former wife needs therapy.

Let yourself be who you are. Wear what you like. Wear what your wife likes to see you in. Let go of the past.
Your best self is your present self. Live in the present.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DianeT

Lisa, I think you interpret femininity in ways many crossdressers do and that is a misconception. When you say that your ex wasn't feminine I think many GGs would disagree and tell you that she is feminine by virtue of being female. The clothes have little to do with actual femininity, if you consider that femininity is the female essence, or at least what typically characterizes girls. Even if you take the latter definition, your ex is mostly right. Except in special occasions, few girls will wear stockings or heels nowadays. I confess that in France, when summer comes, you will see floral dresses everywhere, but with sneakers at the feet (again, your ex right about sneakers).

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DIANE:
While I somewhat agree, how about the popular current show Emily in Paris? Young women seem to like the show. Does it portray the same misconception? Where does it fit in with real life?

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LISA:
We tend to emulate the type of women we are attracted to. I find it interesting to choose to be with someone whose sense of fashion isn't the way you like. What are your thoughts on that?

Lisa Marie.
You need to let your ex-wife thoughts out of your head....She seemed to have controlled you so deeply that you lost confidence in yourself. Make an effort to stop thinking or referring to your ex....even if you have to meet her because of the children.
Your current wife seems to be a wonderful person, a beautiful soul that really loves you for who you are. Trust her. Love her. Listen to her.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genifer Teal

DIANE:
While I somewhat agree, how about the popular current show Emily in Paris? Young women seem to like the show. Does it portray the same misconception? Where does it fit in with real life?

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Genifer, the show doesn't have much to do with real life. It is a Disneyland version of Paris where French are all either lazy or latin lovers with six packs, and girls wear cocktail dresses day in day out. You will (sometimes) find cocktail dresses in Paris, you will (sometimes) find lazy people, and you will (sometimes) find latin lovers. But most of the time you will just find normal people going on their business who pretty much look like normal people going on their business in USA or every other part of the world. The show is made to be fun, is as "girly" as can be, so I am sure it will speak to CDers too. But of course it isn't reality.

I think a more productive conversation would've been about what was situationally appropriate. Pants and shoes without heels are more practical for day-to-day life so that is what most women wear. No one puts on heels to go to the hardware store.

I do feel like when you were raised in a society that tells you not to wear women's clothing a lot of people overcompensate for time lost and maybe go a bit overboard. In that respect there may have been some truth to what she was saying, and that may have been what she was feeling.

On the other hand it's up to every individual to decide what is appropriate for them to wear and this feels a bit like controlling, gaslighting behavior. One thing about this story I find... odd though.

You'd been dating for two weeks and she told you that you weren't allowed to be trans? And that relationship persisted?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Violetgray

You'd been dating for two weeks and she told you that you weren't allowed to be trans? And that relationship persisted?

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It persisted for 23 years. I was 18 and she was my first love and didn't think I could find anyone else. I would say the relationship was a mistake if it wasn't for my kids. I wouldn't allow any restrictions on my identity nowadays.

If you are still letting your ex-wife dictate your thoughts, to the detriment of your relationship with your current partner, I think you need to seek some professional counseling to deal with the 23 years of debris floating around your head.

And I will add that "feminine" has nothing to do with dressing and that your ex-wife was feminine no matter how she chose to dress.

A very moving post. Its great that you have found acceptance in your new relationship. You should embrace that. However as you have children from your previous marriage, its a situation that needs to be managed carefully.It could be difficult keeping everyone happy.

Hi Lisa, I think keep speaking with your therapist, your current wife, and above all give yourself time to develop a style that works for YOU!

If your wife gives you lots of validation on your style, it will cancel out your ex-wife's voice in your head.

Hi Lisa Marie :hugs:, That was quite a story, I hope that you can get that X out of your head, >Orchid**0:daydreaming:0**

The "real woman" or even "real man" comments seem like some of the lamest, laziest expressions that there are. Certain women's clothing lines used the "for Real Women" line to sell plus size fashion. I guess the pitch was successful, but the concept that one group of women (or men) are "real" just expresses that anyone not in that group is somehow "not real". I occasionally shop at the above mentioned plus size shop and find it ironic that by shopping there I could be a "real woman" unlike those "less than real women" who don't need plus size clothes.

I'm ranting and rambling and I apologize. Since I have fallen outside the "real man" realm for my whole adult life, I've pretty much abandoned the idea of that particular brand of reality.

I can't really speak to the original post as far as giving advice or answers. If anything, I'd just suggest looking at the absurdity of "real women/real men" argument.

Interesting concept, "real women/real men". Clothing/actions/personality does not define a real...., only birth. I'm a real man and i wear women's clothing. I see real women wearing men's clothing.

Wear what makes you feel good.

"Let yourself, be yourself!" Hugs Lana Mae

From LisaMarieDayton:

"'A real woman wouldn't wear that' when she would inspect my wardrobe (while I wasn't allowed to dress around her, she kept track of what I owned). This applied to pretty much everything regarding anything feminine. This did not only apply to my personal closet, but to society as a whole. She would declare that 'real' women don't wear dresses or skirts. Women don't wear high heels; nor stockings. Females don't wear makeup or paint their nails and they would never wear any lingerie or anything with satin"

LisaMarie, if according to your former wife women don't wear dresses, etc., maybe it's time for men to get out of their REALLY deep rut of attire and expand their wardrobe and grooming practices. I feel that I am doing my part.
I as a MAN who uses his legal first name, wear dresses all the time. I have not worn trousers or shorts since mid June. And Saturday nights I apply a color of nail lacquer (polish) to my fingernails to go along with the dress I am going to wear to church on Sunday morning. And, also for my Sunday best I wear makeup, heels, and stockings. And I certainly better wear a bra when I'm out in public as my bra cup size is DD, thanks to being on estrogen.
And I have definitely gone through male puberty as I sing second bass in the church choir.

Now when it really cools off I'll wear a man's coat and tie outfit some of the time to church. It's just too hot in the summertime in the DFW area to wear such an outfit.

Unfortunately, there are many women who feel the need to disparage other women for embracing attire, makeup, and behavior which is quite feminine. I can't say why they feel the need to do this, other than to mention that my ex did so simply because she didn't feel that she could 'compete' with other women who were willing to go through all the work to appear more attractive, using fashion, make up, hair styling, etc., to be as or more attractive than other women were wiling to do. I got the same 'real women don't do that' responses a lot from her before we divorced. What that ended up meaning in reality, was that SHE wasn't 'willing to do that', not that women in general didn't 'do that'.
But that remaining feeling that your ex left you with, isn't unusual. Many here have expressed the same lingering feelings over the years, of negative impressions, leftover by ex partners especially after they have felt greatly disappointed by finding out that their male mate isn't the 'all male, all macho, all the time' partner that they wanted to have.

Well, REAL men aren't macho, so...

:)

I know plenty of women who dress feminine wear makeup, shirts and a lot of them get regular manicures. There are also some women who don't. If anyone suggests no one does that or they all do this I disagree.

Now that you have freedom, wear what you want. Don't overthink it. You will naturally gravitate to styles that suit you.
That will lead you to your own style.