Convincing the masses

On the way home today, on the subway, I started wondering whether people on the subway thought I was a man or a woman, at first glance, at least. I was fully man-dressed, had my breast bound (for the first time, woo), and a carefully placed hand over where my ... man bits should have been. But I realized, my face still looked too female.

Long have I watched mens and womens faces, trying to figure out what makes the difference between a man's and a woman's face, and how easily the brain processes them as such. When I look around this whole forum, I see a lot of really convincing CDers. Often times, though, what gives them away is there face.

Enough of the talk, though. Do you think your face gives you away? If not, what gives you away? Or do have you refined your CDing to a fine art. Really, my question is, how convincing do you feel when you cross dress?

I tend to look down because I know my face is very feminine. I do get "sir"ed a lot when I go out, so perhaps it isn't that bad, but I feel like I look so much like a girl. Funniest thing, though. I was at McDonalds, not dressed at all, just in a baggy sweatshirt and the lady looked me straight in the eye and said "can I help you sir?" But I think we see what we know when we look in the mirror. Well, you tell me. In my avatar you can't tell if I'm wearing boys clothes or not. Do I still look like a boy?

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Originally Posted by Fainne the King

Well, you tell me. In my avatar you can't tell if I'm wearing boys clothes or not. Do I still look like a boy?

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You do! Sparro looks like a boy too. You all look male.

Two years ago I had chin length hair, and I wore a bandana once kinda like a hairband. I looked girlish and I was "sir"ed. it's like people look at one thing and automatically assume. which can be good or bad.

The only time I've been "sired" is by this woman at work. It was pretty funny because she was like "I'm sorry, excuse me sir... I mean mam, I'm mean sir... no no, you're a sir, right?" I wasn't sure what to say. Aparently she had lost her glasses, so could barely see, anyway. X_X

The other time was by a little boy. He was asking his mom what gender everyone was. He called me a boy, and his mother said yes, he is. Of course, then, he asked his mother is she was a boy.

Jeez. I've got a terrible track record.

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And Fainne, that is such a hard question to answer because I know you're a FTM and not a genetic guy, so I can't help but find the subtle differences knowing this. If you told me that you were a genetic guy then I'd read you as a guy in that photo.

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Good point. Let me use Lex as an example. I consistantly referred to you as a male, then I saw a more female pic of you and know I catch myself thinking female. It really blows doesn't it.

As for me, I'm not convincing, my everything gives me away, and I don't find myself to be an attractive male at all. The only thing that doesn't give me away is my singing voice. I somehow developed a deep whatever the opposite of falsetto (fake higher pitched) is. So I have a rich more mannish tone when I sing. *shrug* a lot of good that does me. I get cast as a boy a lot, and I can't ever sing with the girls in the choir.

I guess it's okay because I don't really try to pass, I just like dressing up. It still hurts me though. :sad:

yes my face lets me down everytime i never get called sir ever so thats dissaponting and annyoing but its just one of them things i cant chagne grr

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Originally Posted by Adam

yes my face lets me down everytime i never get called sir ever so thats dissaponting and annyoing but its just one of them things i cant chagne grr

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testosterone will dramactically change that for you :D

I get Sir'ed 80% of the time. But when I do not get Sir'ed it is because of my chest.

Like yourself I have studied the differences in male and female features and have seen some women that look more like men than some men do, the difference is so slight. Larger pores, beard shadow, eyebrows make difference either way. I have read many post from FTM and am starting to relate to some of your problems of covering female assets, at work I still dress in drab, as breast have grown to the point of being noticed in shirts, have shaved all hair and is growing back less coarse, and more fem facial features, some have notice can tell by their suddle comments, Im at that point stuck in between.

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Originally Posted by Lex

And yeah, the chest thing is such an issue. At a glance I get read as a man, but then as soon as they see my chest it becomes slightly awkward for the both of us. Awkward for them because they're there saying things like, "Man...woman?...guy...uuuuuhhhh," and awkward for me because I don't want to say I'm female because I'm not, but if my chest is unbound (which it usually is, it's too damn big) then I don't feel that I can tell them I'm male. So whoever's observant enough to figure it out gets left hanging. Poor *******s.

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hehe Lex, the more you go unbound and answer "I'm male", the easier it'll be for me to get implants and be able to project at whim both "Girl packin heat" and "Boy with Breastesses" ;) hehe

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Originally Posted by Fainne the King

I do get "sir"ed a lot when I go out . . .

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The day I get "sir-ed", I'll probably give that person a great big kiss! :eek: Or at least shake their hand. It hasn't happened yet, but at least people have gone from seeing me as a masculine female to giving me that "is that a boy or a girl?" double-take. Progress, I think. At least I hope. ;)

I think my face is too feminine and gives me away before anyone has a chance to notice my chest or hear my voice, but Kells is right, "T" shoud help me in that department. I think it will make my face more angular and maybe change my hairline, which I think are masculine traits. I can't wait for my girly eyebrows to grow in a little. I stopped plucking them years ago, but now they won't grow in anymore. :(

And for the record, from your pictures/avatars, I think you all look like boys. :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by CaptLex

And for the record, from your pictures/avatars, I think you all look like boys. :thumbsup:

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when you changing yours lol

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Originally Posted by kells

when you changing yours lol

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When I start looking like my avatar. That's my goal - to look like that captain. :D

well i was certainly in a situation last night where two or three people were giving me double takes! it felt so good!, i suppose it didnt help that i was wearing a tie, hair back out the way and i was using the gents all night lol

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Originally Posted by sparro

Enough of the talk, though. Do you think your face gives you away? If not, what gives you away? Or do have you refined your CDing to a fine art. Really, my question is, how convincing do you feel when you cross dress?

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While I don't feel I have the most feminine of features, it's about 50/50 how I get read (you can see some naff pix of me here.) I feel that I'm convincing enough that I am comfortable being who I am and for me, that all that matters

Your biggest asset is attitude. If you look uncomfortable, people will pay closer attention to you - study you more. From your pix, you easily pass as a guy - I've seen far more 'feminine' looking men that you.

Just go out and be yourself - sod what everyone think! ;)

Love & Stuff,
Donna

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Originally Posted by kells

testosterone will dramactically change that for you :D

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It's sad to think though. For example my face is very soft and childish even as a female, and my body while bound etc is very pre-pubescent looking as well. So after some time (when I age) I'll have to stop playing the "I'm a 14 year old boy" card.
Testosterone isn't an option for me. So at one point, I'll just have to stop cross-dressing :eek:


TOPIC!
On the streetcar I saw a lady and then I wondered if it was a man, but I was sure it was a lady. Then they spoke, she sounded like a man (a raspy one). I though, maybe FTM? If so his/her lips and chin, threw me for a loop, very womanly. Although his/her aviator glasses made him/her more manly, strange n'est ce pas?

HA! It's funny. I got my third strike the other day.

I had been carded at a seven eleven. My old photo ID still has a picture of me with long hair, looking very female. Long story short, the man thought I had taken my sister's ID and was trying to pass it as my own. :rofl:

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Originally Posted by sparro

HA! It's funny. I got my third strike the other day.

I had been carded at a seven eleven. My old photo ID still has a picture of me with long hair, looking very female. Long story short, the man thought I had taken my sister's ID and was trying to pass it as my own. :rofl:

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Hmm, that could get pretty tricky. Maybe want to get that ID updated. Although, congrats. :D

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Originally posted by sparro
HA! It's funny. I got my third strike the other day.

I had been carded at a seven eleven. My old photo ID still has a picture of me with long hair, looking very female. Long story short, the man thought I had taken my sister's ID and was trying to pass it as my own.

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Sparro: I know the feeling. I took my husband out to lunch today and the whole time we were there the waitress was asking what us guys wanted and can I get you gents anything else? It was great until I pulled out my credit card to pay. I didn't have any trouble with them accepting it but, the looks I received as we left were priceless. :p

I love the gender bending stuff. Keep 'em guessing I always say. It's priceless when people get the "clueless" look on their faces and can't figure you out. Regardless of whether I'm Ericka or Richard, I'm myself, can't change that if I tried. That includes being "devilish" some times. I'm no DQ but performed recently. My song? "walkin' round in women's underwear" sung by a guy. My next one will be lipsyncing "Oh what a beautiful morning" from the musical Oklahoma also sung by a guy but I'll be dressed as Ericka. I love expressing myself this way and really enjoy being myself as one or the other. Takes the "sting" out of life a little. Take care, Ericka

My face gives me away and as I have huge lumps that dont ever seem to wanna be flattened etc, they do too. I do get called 'he' alot though and last time a used a womens loo the attendant stopped me, but then she saw my chest. sob sob.

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Originally Posted by Ryan

My face gives me away and as I have huge lumps that dont ever seem to wanna be flattened etc, they do too. I do get called 'he' alot though and last time a used a womens loo the attendant stopped me, but then she saw my chest. sob sob.

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I know exactly what you mean, Ryan. My voice and my chest give me away instantly, but even before that my face gives me away. I'm working on changing that, though.

Welcome to the forum, nice to have you here. :wave2:

People have been generous to me here. I don't know if you guys were just trying to be nice or not. I think my face at most looks young boy. If people realized I was 32 then no way would I pass. How old do I look to you guys? And for real. Tell me if I pass or not!! I am so curious to hear what I need to do to be more passable. One of the MTF has been PMing me to let me know what she sees from a bio man's point of view on what I need to change. Like posture and stuff. So for real. Do y'all see anything? I won't be offended. I need all the help I can get. You all are the first people who I am testing my real passing with. lol Taylor

Oh and also when anyone thinks I am a guy they always call me "son" or "pal". That tells you how old I look. Taylor

Dude, you look like a guy. Though I never would have taken you for 32. Maybe 20, but not 32.

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Originally Posted by Taylor105

So for real. Do y'all see anything? I won't be offended. I need all the help I can get. You all are the first people who I am testing my real passing with. lol Taylor

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Well, I think you definitely pass, and I think the fact that you don't have to bind helps that. Even when I bind or use a tight sports bra, I can only get my boobs to half their size (which is still very visible), so that's one reason that I'll never pass until I can get rid of them.

As for looking less like a young boy, the only thing I can think of that might help that is facial hair, but applying fake facial hair seems tricky (I think Abraxas may have some info on that). It might be that a different wardrobe would help you look a little older too.

All the FtMs that I've seen always look younger as men than they do as women, though, so I think that's just par for the course.

I used to get called 'Miss' in a man's suit and tie... doh!

I think for the boy's you tend to look a lot younger than your years... Which we girl's pay serious money to try do... Lisa 'nuked the hair with colour this weekend & bought even more anti-wrinkle creams' Golightly.

Hi Guys!!
If you dont mind I will toss in a nickel here. I know I have been pretty quiet on this forum of late.

As a photog I am sensitive to a lot of things. Besides the obvious of jewellery (although that can be kept really low key), hair etc a couple of things are quite noticeable. Skin texture is probably the first one and secondly eyebrows. The other thing that can help in a big way is the collar. Avoid low collars wherever possible. Women generally have longer and thinner necks than men so collarless shirts generally go against you.

As Taylor said, posture and mannerisms are another clue.

Generally if you keep it low key you will probably pass a lot better than you think, but to be honest, most of the pics I have seen of you guys seem to have you able to pass fairly easily. You guys seem to have a better sense of this than most of us M2F's.

Oh, and Capn, you will get there. Patience.

Kimberley.

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Originally Posted by Lex

My face doesn't really give me away that much, it just makes me look like I'm about eleven years old, haha. It's probably my voice that gives me away a lot, and my chest.

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Hmm I don't how real the photo is online online, but I'm not sure on the stubble

The girl I work with at work manages to look so ambiguous ad with her voice and mannerisms can easily pass and I know she doesn't bother with the facial hair, but does tape down her boobs as they're literally the only think in work mode that makes you go ah thats a girl

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Long have I watched mens and womens faces, trying to figure out what makes the difference between a man's and a woman's face

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I find the main thing is the angle of the eyes. Mens eyes seems to curve down on the outside, whereas womens eyes tend to angle upwards. I usually put a small flick of eyeliner at the corners of my eyes to try to create the illusion that my eyes angle upwads.

Thanks for the tips guys!!! At most with sideburns I may pass for a boy going to his high school prom. LOL Taylor

I wasn't sure how convincing I was until I went out a few weeks ago with a group of my male gay friends. One of the hetro women their thought I was the guy one of the other lads had pulled the week before it made me feel great!! It does depend what I'm wearing though. If Ive got my fav shirt on and Im binding I look more convincin. My boobs are a dead give away and if they aren't bound well I've got no chance lol.

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Originally Posted by Lex

Curses. xP Still, can't be helped I guess. Which is why I take my time in telling anyone I'm genetically female. The more time they know me as a guy, the more likely they will continue to think of me that way.

Like some friends of mine that I met from the net. They assumed I was male and I didn't 'correct' them. Then when I met them in RL, chest unbound, and situation stupidly unexplained, they thought I was a guy, and didn't notice for hours. If they even noticed, they still use male pronouns in referrence to me. YAY.

And yeah, the chest thing is such an issue. At a glance I get read as a man, but then as soon as they see my chest it becomes slightly awkward for the both of us. Awkward for them because they're there saying things like, "Man...woman?...guy...uuuuuhhhh," and awkward for me because I don't want to say I'm female because I'm not, but if my chest is unbound (which it usually is, it's too damn big) then I don't feel that I can tell them I'm male. So whoever's observant enough to figure it out gets left hanging. Poor *******s.

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Have you ever bought a minimizer bra? I used to wear them in middle school cause I developed my full chest size like, right then and no one else had, so felt self concious :o I don't remember them being uncomfortable at all, though I don't know how much smaller they make em seem. But hey, you should try them, better then nothing right?

I just had to say this for the sake of saying this. Beth you are a hottie!!!

:love:

Taylor