Morality in Question?? A thought Provoking Discussion.

Ok, So I am thumbing through some posts and I come across alot of comments about conservative vs open-minded, or liberal vs. opressive.

Since when did CD'ing become have to be political issue?
I realize that many people want acceptance. And it would be nice to be able to walk down the street in a skirt and not to be laughed or made a mockery of. But at the same time do you honestly think our society, nay our humanity as a whole has the capacity to do so? For shit's sake, I know people that are all left liberal looney people that have rally's and go to conventions about energy conservation and save the whales etc etc etc, and what do they do on the weekends? Go out a drink, go and pay 20 dollars to see a damn movie spend 50k on a car and then bitch cause no one is helping humanity.
Don't misunderstand me, I am hardly saying that we arent all a little hipocritical. But using that as an example, what makes anyone think that society would ever be accepting in our liftime?

So the morality kicks in. When does acceptance cross the line of morality?
By morality I mean what is appropriate for society to develope without turning inward on itself.

I will be the 1st to admit. I am a conservative politically, and if I could pass as a female in public I would do so. I personally couldnt care less if gay's want to marry or join the military. As a former active Marine, I say "here's a gun and a guy, go go go"
Point is, why does one need a public barrage of acceptance in order to make change? Now don't read into this, but the last time a society tried to push principles of acceptance to the rest it incited World War 2.
No I am not calling anyone a Nazi. I am asking if the pushing for acceptance is going to cause more harm than good?

Where do we draw the line that separates what we want with what is best?
here is something we can all agree on,
Society as a whole would laugh if a guy with a beard was wearing a dress. But we accept women wearing pants as a norm.
If you were to go way way way way back to a whopping 150 years ago, a woman wearing pants (or knickers as they were so called then) was virtually unheard of. In fact I dont think it was until "womens lib" that started to set things in motion for that to happen. Maybe the 50's?
So. If women can wait, why can't we? Should we?

Hopefully I created some sort of thought provoking stimuli.
Your thoughts welcome.
Kryss

I must admit to being a bit befuddled by this whole post.
i dont really see a thought provoking debate actually... so maybe im losing the essence somewhere.
mind you, i also never see the need for profanity just slung in there to seemingly make some kind of statement of expression .. but anyhow.

i do agree that society as a generalisation is not really the most forgiving thing. it doesnt tend to like change.. it tends to like to stay in its own little comfort zone.

now, i dont claim to be critical or political .. but who exactly are we waiting for? .. or what maybe ?? ..
womens lib wasnt just a scheduled process that everyone was waiting for to help change things. it was a bunch of people with ideas on how to change things ..
how does that saying go ..."I cannot say whether things will get better if we change; what I can say is they must change if they are to get better."

people who wish rights basically have to stand up and be heard.. yes society might fight it, it does tend to do so .. but its a matter of who has greater resolve i guess.

im TS, so should i hide away and wait for someone to liberate me?
i dont think so..
i know that the views of most of the people who ive come out to have changed .. before me talking with them they had pretty much no real idea what a TS was ... now, they know one .. they can sympathise with what i have had to go through and what im going through now.
who else was going to change their minds, if not me?
whos responsibility is that?
i want to live in a society that can accept transexuality .. therefore i have to do something about it. even if this is on a small community scale.

as for this being a "humanity" problem .. i dont think thats all that accurate .. it might be that your community or your society might discriminate against certain types of people, but i wouldnt to presume to tell other cultures what they are thinking.
there are many cultures that do accept transgendered people.
and im pretty sure they are still part of humanity as a whole.

and i dont quite see how trying to change a societys views suddenly bears any likeness to the nazi movement.
the uk recently started accepting gay unions .. and it was all done without having to invade poland.
social reforms and changes in policy are all valid things for progress in society..
thats hardly cramming something down someones throat and telling them how it should be or else.

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Originally Posted by Kryss

Society as a whole would laugh if a guy with a beard was wearing a dress.

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i think there is a certain butterfly that would probably take issue on this comment... and rightly so to.

Dee the befuddled. :straightface:

I don't know if I get it either. I do know that I'm not waiting on anything from anybody, be it acceptance or freedom or whatever. I could really care less what society or humanity thinks about me, it's my life, not theirs.

I suppose that whenever I'm read when I go out and people see that I'm not a monster, that I'm "furthering" our cause and educating the public, but that's not my goal. I mean, it's all well and good, I suppose, but I'm not interested in being a flag bearer. I've already fought my share of battles and such to get where I'm at in life, and I prefer to let the young ones pick up the sword and carry on.

As far as women wearing pants, I'm really sick of that whole topic, and to equate that with womens lib is ridiculous. For generations women, and all minorites for that matter, were treated as second class citizens whose main right was to serve Caucasian males. These people fought long and hard for equality in voting and justice in the workplace, I seriously doubt that wanting to wear an article of clothing for comfort and convenience had much to do with it..

Karen

[SIZE="4"]Acceptance is like evelolution, It happens because there is a need. If you want acceptance get out there be seen, talk to people make them understand, do this one person at a time an we can educate the world.[/SIZE]

Excuse me....exactly what is it that you are tryin to say Kryss?? I read that twice and thoughts have certainly been provoked.....except its a thought called total confusion!!!!

I would really like it if you could explain what the essence of your post is.

Thanks,
Sonia

HI Kryss,

wow for this being your 4th posts, well let's just say that you sure know how to prokove a discussion....or a confusion..... not sure which this will turn into yet.

To me this is one of those posts that should have be re-read a couple of times before posting.

I am not sure what you are getting at. But i will take a stab:

I am betting you are someone who feels a bit trapped {as do many} by society's rules. You state that if you indeed passed you would go out. To me that is the core problem you are faced with. Becasue you might be ridiculed or hasseled you feel like you are possibly being denied opportunities. Truth is you could go out if you wanted. You could get on a flight ot drive a car to the nearest and furtherest major city, rent a room and enquire about a suppport group that has meetings or activities and get the chance to enjoy yourself. But you have not taken these steps, I gather. If I am wrong I aplogize, but to me your posts sounds like someone who has yet to explore the world outside of their home en femme.

So you are angry. To me yoru anger shows in your posts, not only with your use of the *four letter* words but in your overall train of thought.

It sounds to me like you won't ever be one of those people helping to further the tg movement because you fear what others will think of you. You see it as a pointless endevour just like your friends trying to save the whales. I think you also sort of have wahsed your hands at society ever acepting this without some violent movement taking place.

To me you are a person who sits on the sidelines of something that seems so far out of reach yet makes you angry because it does in a way defeats what you stand for {you called yoruself conservative}.

To me you seem like a person torn between thier learned value system and something that is deep with in your soul.

Does trans issues and such have to be political?....sometimes it does. When it comes to moving ideas and laws forward.

There are people in this community who spend their life trying to get bills passed, get legislation moved, and rally and show up in cities anytime a trans sex worker is killed or a person being fired because they are trans. Thank goodness we have people like this. We have people who go on television and allow to be interviewed, who write books, and people who are 'out' there in a real way. I dont' think they have let society's non-acceptance stop them. Eventually things will change. Each of us in our own small way can help, even if it is just educating one person who never heard of this stuff.

Well.....I hope that if anything reading more on this forum will give you some courage to start being you and not being afraid of standing up for your rights as well. Most minority groups sometime in history have to do this.....

I supose there are some extreme crossdressers out there pushing for social acceptance on a global scale. And maybe they are the ones that go to these meeting and ralleys that I don't go to! But I think for the majority of us girls it's more of a personal thing and acceptance by close family and friends would be a giant step forward. Personally when I'm out and about enfemme I could care less if someone doesn't agree with how I dress. And if they want to chalenge me, fine. I'll hike up my dress and kick their ass. Hehehe.

Society will always look down on something or someone. That's never going to change. And I don't really equate morality with social acceptence or with being conservative or liberal! Kind of mutually exclusive in my opinion.

But we can save the environment if each one of us takes a diet soda can and puts in in their purse and never opens it!! That way there will be less CO2 released into the atmosphere!! LOL. Sorry, bad engineering humor!

Love Karren

Ok from this (UK) side of the Pond.

I have been into crossdressing since my early teens, panties 24/7 other female clothing indoors only and am otherwise heterosexual. On sexual issues I am Liberal.

On Economic and Employment and Landlord V Tenant issues I am left of centre even Socialist, However in issues such as Law and Order, Defence, Education, Political Correctness, I am right-wing, far more so the the current Conservative Party under David Cameron in the UK. I am in favour of the Death Penalty and Corporal Punishment, and harsh prison sentences which punish rather than rehabilitate criminals, however unlike many on the Right I am in favour of Free Abortion on Demand, Euthanasia, Cloning and Stem Cell Research. So I do not fit into any of the standard stereotypes.

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Originally Posted by Kryss

In fact I dont think it was until "womens lib" that started to set things in motion for that to happen. Maybe the 50's?
So. If women can wait, why can't we? Should we?

Kryss

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Based on this time table, if I have to wait 50 years for "CD lib", I'll be 93 years old. Something about me sitting in a rocker with my stockings unravelled and gathered at my ankles doesn't appeal to me. I want it today, not tomorrow. Crossdressing when your dead isn't fun.

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Originally Posted by Kryss

Since when did CD'ing become have to be political issue?

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Can you show us some examples on this forum regarding CD'ing becoming a political issue? Because, as far as I see it, it's society that has a problem, nothing to do with politics.

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Originally Posted by Kryss

Here is something we can all agree on. Society as a whole would laugh if a guy with a beard was wearing a dress. But we accept women wearing pants as a norm.

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All?? I don't agree, I think this statement is quite insulting. You can't speak on behalf of everyone and a few members of this forum have beards and crossdress, they like any other member here are accepted. To read that you would laugh at a person with a beard, wearing a dress, is quite ironic.

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Originally Posted by Kryss

But using that as an example, what makes anyone think that society would ever be accepting in our liftime?

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What are you doing? are you out there, or just bitching on this forum?

I think guys who wear dresses and have beards are pretty cool. Haven't tried that one yet but am thinking about it. What they show me is they really have courage and fortitude for being themselves. I accept them as I do any other member for who they are as individuals and appreciate their input as well. Ericka

I'm too old to wait 50 years for acceptance.

But honestly, I couldn't care less about people accepting me as a crossdresser. Life is too short to live it for other people. Acceptance would be nice, but it's not priority. I'm more concerned about the legal side of the issue. Society doesn't have to accept crossdressing, but the law should protect them so they can work, move about through the world, and live without fear.

Acceptance from 90 and a big number % of the people you meet is right now. I am a man in a beard and a dress, and I don't get laughed at. (Well, sometines teenage girls giggle, but it's more of the time because they think it's cute, not contempible). All you have to do is do it.

(Perhaps the earliest time when large numbers of women (outside of China) started to wear trousers was in World War I, when a lot of them took factory jobs because their husbands were away in the service. Avant garde women continued to wear them into the 20s. This was repeated in the second war, and more women continued afterward. But it wasn't until the introduction of the pants suit in the 70s that they became business proper everywhere.)

The longer I live, the more I become convinced that "morality" is essentially concerned with compassion, not rules.

Rules have their place, to prevent passionate violations of compassion.

I certainly don't mean to say, "If it feels good, do it."

But I certainly do mean to say, if the only one hurt by your act is a busybody who wouldn't be affected if they were minding their own businesss and not yours, then you are morally justified in going for what makes you happy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kryss

Ok, So I am thumbing through some posts and I come across alot of comments about conservative vs open-minded, or liberal vs. opressive.

Since when did CD'ing become have to be political issue?
I realize that many people want acceptance. And it would be nice to be able to walk down the street in a skirt and not to be laughed or made a mockery of. But at the same time do you honestly think our society, nay our humanity as a whole has the capacity to do so? For shit's sake, I know people that are all left liberal looney people that have rally's and go to conventions about energy conservation and save the whales etc etc etc, and what do they do on the weekends? Go out a drink, go and pay 20 dollars to see a damn movie spend 50k on a car and then bitch cause no one is helping humanity.
Don't misunderstand me, I am hardly saying that we arent all a little hipocritical. But using that as an example, what makes anyone think that society would ever be accepting in our liftime?

So the morality kicks in. When does acceptance cross the line of morality?
By morality I mean what is appropriate for society to develope without turning inward on itself.

I will be the 1st to admit. I am a conservative politically, and if I could pass as a female in public I would do so. I personally couldnt care less if gay's want to marry or join the military. As a former active Marine, I say "here's a gun and a guy, go go go"
Point is, why does one need a public barrage of acceptance in order to make change? Now don't read into this, but the last time a society tried to push principles of acceptance to the rest it incited World War 2.
No I am not calling anyone a Nazi. I am asking if the pushing for acceptance is going to cause more harm than good?

Where do we draw the line that separates what we want with what is best?
here is something we can all agree on,
Society as a whole would laugh if a guy with a beard was wearing a dress. But we accept women wearing pants as a norm.
If you were to go way way way way back to a whopping 150 years ago, a woman wearing pants (or knickers as they were so called then) was virtually unheard of. In fact I dont think it was until "womens lib" that started to set things in motion for that to happen. Maybe the 50's?
So. If women can wait, why can't we? Should we?

Hopefully I created some sort of thought provoking stimuli.
Your thoughts welcome.
Kryss

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With you 100 percent here we have to accept what we have and try not to upset too many people by shoving ourselves in their noses.
Ok we should try to make society a little more accepting but its not gonna happen in my lifetime and making unsupportable laws wont help

I'd just like to go for a walk without worrying about getting my butt kicked...

That may not be acceptance, but it's not too much to ask!

Hugs,

Melissa:happy:

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Originally Posted by Sophia Rearen

Crossdressing when your dead isn't fun.

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Is that so? I always thought I would look awesome wearing my redhead wig in a casket.

(sorry, I have a dark sense of humor) :D

Kryss:

I'm sorry but I do think your first question was a good one, "Since when did crossdressing have to become a political issue?". It dosn't, and I have no comments to make regarding the rest of your post, which was filled with political comments.

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Originally Posted by Melissa A.

I'd just like to go for a walk without worrying about getting my butt kicked...

That may not be acceptance, but it's not too much to ask!

Hugs,

Melissa:happy:

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amen!!

I would just like safety. :)

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Originally Posted by Kryss

Since when did CD'ing become have to be political issue?

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Since it calls into question the basic assumptions we as a society have regarding gender roles - what it means to be a man or a woman. This in turn challenges the entire foundation upon which the established patriarchy exists.

It calls into question what we see as a basic human right: the right to be who we are without fear of persecution. To be persecuted on the basis of the clothing we wear or how we choose to identify and express ourselves - especially when that expression in no way harms anyone or impinges on their rights.

I guess you're right - there really isn't anything political about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kryss

I realize that many people want acceptance. And it would be nice to be able to walk down the street in a skirt and not to be laughed or made a mockery of. But at the same time do you honestly think our society, nay our humanity as a whole has the capacity to do so?

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Uh, yea... It known as social evolution. Societies are living, evolving entities: they can and do change.

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Originally Posted by Kryss

For shit's sake, I know people that are all left liberal looney people that have rally's and go to conventions about energy conservation and save the whales etc etc etc, and what do they do on the weekends? Go out a drink, go and pay 20 dollars to see a damn movie spend 50k on a car and then bitch cause no one is helping humanity. Don't misunderstand me, I am hardly saying that we arent all a little hipocritical. But using that as an example, what makes anyone think that society would ever be accepting in our liftime?

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How can we not misunderstand you here? What does this have to do with crossdressing, Transgender issues, social acceptance or anything else for that matter???

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Originally Posted by Kryss

So the morality kicks in. When does acceptance cross the line of morality?
By morality I mean what is appropriate for society to develope without turning inward on itself.

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What morality? Who's morality? ... Yours?

How does acceptance 'cross the line of morality'? Is there something immoral about me wearing a dress if I want? Is there something immoral about being accepted while wearing a dress. From whence comes this great moral code you are so afraid of violating? And what makes you so sure your so-called morality is right for everyone?

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Originally Posted by Kryss

Point is, why does one need a public barrage of acceptance in order to make change? Now don't read into this, but the last time a society tried to push principles of acceptance to the rest it incited World War 2. No I am not calling anyone a Nazi.

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Last time I checked, the Nazi plan was not the promotion of world wide acceptance. It was the eradication of all that did not fit into their vision of perfection. Their's was a campaign not of inclusion, but of exclusion - by death. They weren't looking for world acceptance, they were looking for world domination.

Find a better example because this one is flat-out opposite to your argument.

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Originally Posted by Kryss

I am asking if the pushing for acceptance is going to cause more harm than good?

Where do we draw the line that separates what we want with what is best?

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How would acceptance cause harm and for whom? What criteria are you using as a baseline for determining 'what is best'?

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Originally Posted by Kryss

here is something we can all agree on,

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I doubt it...

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Originally Posted by Kryss

Society as a whole would laugh if a guy with a beard was wearing a dress.

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And your point would be??? Since when did it become my - our - responsibility to make society 'comfortable'.

How is it 'right' to foster a society in which intolerance, bigotry and persecution are the norm - and are in fact encouraged? From where I stand, not pushing for acceptance is far more harmful.

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Originally Posted by Kryss

But we accept women wearing pants as a norm.

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Give it a rest. It is not the same thing. It is not about clothing. It is about the right to define our selves as we see - not as others think we ought to be.

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Originally Posted by Kryss

So. If women can wait, why can't we? Should we?

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Keep waiting... And don't forget to click your heels three times as well...

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Originally Posted by Kryss

Hopefully I created some sort of thought provoking stimuli.

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Unfortunately Kryss, the only thoughts this has provoked are those of anger and sadness.

Anger that someone here - one of 'our own' as it were - would actually support a society where we would continue to be ridiculed for being true to ourselves.

Anger that one of 'our own' would associate our desire and fight for social acceptance with what is perhaps the single greatest example of intolerance and hatred in history.

Sadness - in addition to the above - that you are content to be laughed at, ridiculed and considered a social joke: all for the 'greater good'.

Sadness that you are willing to compromise who you are for some arbitrary morality - all based on the fallacious assumption that said morality is applicable to everyone universally.

Sadness that you so lack an acceptance of self that not only can you not see the forest for the trees - you can't even see the trees.


But, we all walk our own paths and must find that which works for us - that which resonates for us. If this works for you, than so be it - although I suspect that you will find yourself a minority amongst a minority.

:mad:

[SIZE=3]Well, I have to say i'm surprised by the general tone of the responses to Kryss' thread!

I can see where she's coming from - is there a need to push our agenda in society because we demand immediate recognition? Don't get me wrong, it would be wonderful to live in a society that accepts crossdressing individuals, but the reality is that today we are still a minority and a relatively unknown community to the World at large.

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Originally Posted by Karren Hutton

... But I think for the majority of us girls it's more of a personal thing and acceptance by close family and friends would be a giant step forward.

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I think Karren has it right. Rather than push our agenda blatently to the lawmakers and our fellow citizens for instant reform on Gender issues, isn't it better to establish a 'ground roots' approach to Transgender issues that over time will spread throughout the population and eventually become accepted as 'normal' by society at large?

But, this gets back to Kryss' statement about 50 year time-frames. All great reform started from small efforts and may have taken many years to come to fruition - the GAY movement for example. Compare public acceptance of the GAY community today with that of 30 years ago. It has taken 30 years of effort and persistance by the GAY community to achieve equality, but the movement had small beginnings and built a groundswell of support as it became more of a public issue.

Be honest - have you noticed any real Crossdressing movement that is active in the public arena? Other than the Sydney Mardi Gras, I have not seen on TV or read in a newspaper article, any reference to an organised Crossdressing movement here in Australia. Ok, perhaps we should start by revealing our lifestyle to Family and Friends, but eventually we'll have to develope a united large scale movement that can represent our lifestyle as a whole to society, rather than leaving it up to a few brave individuals to promote our cause. Until we have a united organisation that represents the crossdressing comunity in an informed manner, simple protesting of our minority status and insisting on law change/society acceptance won't work. It's the same as insisting your Wife accepts your crossdressing - but on a bigger scale - you'll still get resistance!

And yes, i'm as guilty as any other in not standing up for my beliefs in the public arena - I acknowledge and accept that. But I'm also realistic enough to know that change will not occur in the short term - certainly not early enough for me to effectively take advantage of it in my lifetime!

[/SIZE]

I personally think people in general have come a long way. I'm a child of the 50's and things are alot different now. It's not unusual to see or hear of a transexual, even if you're not in "our" community. Is it rare, unusual, yes of course, but it's not totaly hidden and ignored. I think gender issues are slowly making headway with the general public. The public perception of gay/lesbian has changed dramatically in the last 20 years. It takes time, but change happens. I am not militant, and I don't dress to make a statement....However, I go out in public, and if I get read, I like to think that just that mild exposure helps make us less a rarity to the public perception.

I dont want to go off on a tangent here, but arent we missing something extremely important? That being our own happiness? The question I ask is why does society deem it necessary to impose its own misguided and misinformed mores on a minority (us) to accomplish what goals? Is it religious? political? social? Someone please explain the benefit of any oppressive goals. No one has yet been able to convince me in the slightest that there is any benefit to society by discriminating or minimizing us. The real benefactors of this are the mental health professionals (and a lot of us are on that path) and the medical community at large for those transitioning. So exactly what is the gain? (And I wanted to stay away from political comment.... yeah right!!) Time to take a pill.....:rolleyes:

:hugs:
Kimberley

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Originally Posted by Kryss

Since when did CD'ing become have to be political issue?

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It became political when TG folk were/are denied their rights.

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And it would be nice to be able to walk down the street in a skirt and not to be laughed or made a mockery of.

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You could do that right now.

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But at the same time do you honestly think our society, nay our humanity as a whole has the capacity to do so?

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Yes.

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But using that as an example, what makes anyone think that society would ever be accepting in our liftime?

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Because it HAS become more accepting. I have walked right into my local Walgreens in small town central Illinois, asked for help in finding a matching shade of a new foundation formulation and got that help. I could walk into any Lane Bryant, Catherines or Fashion Bug in this country and KNOW that I will be treated with respect because it's their corporate policy to do so.

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I will be the 1st to admit. I am a conservative politically,

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don't you think that's self defeating and contributing to your own opression?

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and if I could pass as a female in public I would do so.

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Who says you have to pass to go out in public. All these T-folk here that go out in public, do you think they pass 100% of the time? When I go out, I assume I'm not going to pass, but that doesn't stop me.

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Point is, why does one need a public barrage of acceptance in order to make change?

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Do you want to be fired for being a CD? No? Then you've got to have a law protecting your rights. That requires being talking about things in public.

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Now don't read into this, but the last time a society tried to push principles of acceptance to the rest it incited World War 2.

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Germany was pushing principles of non-acceptance and bigotry. I think you're confused here. We put an end to some major hatemongering and bigotry, a bit too late though.

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I am asking if the pushing for acceptance is going to cause more harm than good?

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What you call "pushing" others call "fighting to ensure that they have rights to begin with" Would you call the civil rights struggles of the 50's and 60's of the African-American community "pushing"?

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Society as a whole would laugh if a guy with a beard was wearing a dress. But we accept women wearing pants as a norm.

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Do you know why some people laugh at guys in dresses, because we haven't earned that right yet. Women fought for their rights (which included freedom in clothing as a subset) over many many years. It took a lot of hard work for women to get where they're at now and they're still working to this day to make things even better.

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So. If women can wait, why can't we? Should we?

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But women didn't just sit on their asses waiting for someone to hand their rights to them, they fought for them, for over a century: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_Falls_Convention


Veronica

First of all, society is fluid, not static. Hence, it changes - or at least it should. Anyone NOT living in a cave should be at least minimally aware that it does change. And change can be a good thing.

Moreover, society is not some vague out there deal, its you, me and everyone around us, right here, right now. If not now, then when? If not us then who? As for the wait deal, let me quote someone far more eloquent then me, or perhaps anyone else I know....

"We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct-action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant 'Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied.""

Martin Luther King's Letter from Birmingham Jail

Oh Yeah, one more thing, I too know lots of "left liberal looney people" who work their butts off to recycle, who ride bikes and use public transit so to avoid not using personal automobiles and here in SF at best it only costs $10 to see a movie (if you are paying $20 I think they are ripping you off). I know people who put their personal lives out in public in order to promote change, to help develop a better image, to make being TG in all its varied modes more positive to everyone.

And lucky we are in America that we have lots and lots of right-wing wing-nuts to balance off the left looneys. I meet people all the time who give me the right wing-nut view so firmly established by their "Christian" beliefs. Yeah, right, like Jesus would own a gun, drive a Hummer, and vote Republican. Yeesh. (matter of fact, like the pope, in all the pictures I see Jesus is in a dress, and his hair is perfect!)

I thought that in the USA that first of all EVERYTHING is a political issues in the end. Second, WE THE PEOPLE get to decide. Since I'm part of the people, I get to decide. So that's how it got to be a political issue. I wanted to make it one. Blame me.

I'm not sorry either.

What Veronica said.... you preach it girlfriend! :notworthy:

BTW, Kryss, the fact that I live in "left liberal looney" San Francisco might just be a reason I can walk down the street without getting laughed at -- and no I don't pass 100% of the time. (Liberals have no monopoly on tolerance but frankly t-friendly cities do tend to be liberal. For what it's worth....)

And when someone wants to deny me my rights -- that makes it political. No one's going to hand us our rights, we've got to earn them like every other group in history that's been stigmatized.

And yes things can change. When women started wearing pants, Deut. 22:5 was thrown in their faces too. As late the 1960s, women would get sent home from work for wearing pants. Today, no one but a few fringe groups sees anything unusual about women in pants. Women earned that change.

Likewise, regardless of what you think about homosexuality, fact of the matter is that prior to Stonewall in 1969, gays and lesbians were routinely fired, carted off the jail, etc. Now they're generally accepted in society, hold public office, run corporations, etc. and corporate America supports gay rights because they know a good market when they see it. And there's plenty of survey research that shows that people who actually know someone who's gay or lesbian is far more likely to be accepting of equal rights for homosexuals. Gays and lesbians earned that change.

If the estimated 1 in 20 men who crossdress all came out of the closet at once, you can bet we'd get the same acceptance after the initial hue and cry settled down. Companies like Lane Bryant and MAC already know all a good number of those men buying their stuff aren't buying them for wives and girlfriends. Which is one reason they train their staff to make sure we're treated right.

Incidentally, if we get out of the closet, that does make a lot more room for clothes....

Holy Crap man,
Those of you that took this personally, take a deep breath, cause your about to get more pissed if you take what will be said from here on personally as well.

1st, I speak using alot of generalization. Why? Cause there are 300 million people in the US and I am not about to list off 2,340,934,349,495 different groups just to appease you. If I say Society as a whole would laugh at the guy in a beard an a dress I mean the mass majority, I mean 9 out of 10 people. I NEVER SAID I WOULD. Oh My god, are some of you allowing your goals and Ideals to cloud your perception of reality? I realize our society isnt what we (cd's, tg's etc) would like it to be for us. I also realize it takes action on our part to make change. DUH! Those of you that pointed that out, thank you for your obvious comments. I posed a question not a statement.

2nd. I am far from angry, I just happen to be a very expressive person and because I think fast I have to type fast. Due to that, I sometimes tend to leave out things that will inspire joy joy feelings in those that read what I have written.

3rd.

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And when someone wants to deny me my rights -- that makes it political. No one's going to hand us our rights, we've got to earn them like every other group in history that's been stigmatized. - Marlena Dahlstrom

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Probably the most consise point on this question. Thanks :D

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Do you want to be fired for being a CD? No? Then you've got to have a law protecting your rights. That requires being talking about things in public. - Ms. Donna

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Psst. There already are laws for this Brain child. Its called Discrimination.
Now if your dressing to work and weren't hired on as a female, thats called a disruption. Sorry if you disagree but people are simple and require stability. Unfortunatley that means that should the company so see it as a disruption to the "harmony in the workplace" as they would call it, they would be justified in letting you go. (JUST SO YOU KNOW, I still think its crap.)

4th. I dont remember saying any of that was my morals, views, or otherwise. YOU made an assuption.

5th. Lets see you can know who you are, be comfortable with that and yet I being comfortable in who I am,drop the F bomb suddenly it has to be commented on? Ok, OMG YOUR WEARING WOMENS CLOTHES!!!
Holy Corsets Batman so am I!! = Comments pointless, childish and really moot beyond belief.

6th. Ok those of you who think that the nazi analogy doesnt work. Forget Nazi's. I will now speak clearly instead of giving you something to think about and respond as opposed to seeing nazi's and debating symantecs.
THE OPPRESSION OF BELIEFS! Regardless of thier action, THEY FOLLOW THE SAME RULES, YOU DO THIS OR YOU DIE. Now no one is mass killing CD's and all that is, is a level of degree. The analogy might not have been the best, for that I apologize. If you fail to see how they are the same, then your ability to see beyond what is written and understand a concept is lacking full fruition.

7th

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Anger that someone here - one of 'our own' as it were - would actually support a society where we would continue to be ridiculed for being true to ourselves.

Anger that one of 'our own' would associate our desire and fight for social acceptance with what is perhaps the single greatest example of intolerance and hatred in history.

Sadness - in addition to the above - that you are content to be laughed at, ridiculed and considered a social joke: all for the 'greater good'.

Sadness that you are willing to compromise who you are for some arbitrary morality - all based on the fallacious assumption that said morality is applicable to everyone universally.

Sadness that you so lack an acceptance of self that not only can you not see the forest for the trees - you can't even see the trees. - Ms. Donna

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I never made any statements about my beliefs feelings or otherwise. So please relax. You are entirely in the wrong ballpark on this one.


What number am I on now? Bahh who cares.

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I'd just like to go for a walk without worrying about getting my butt kicked...

That may not be acceptance, but it's not too much to ask! - Melissa A.

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I couldn't agree more. But they do make small handgun's that can fit easily into a purse :D

How did My making a comparison go from an analogy to a 50-year plan??


Ok. Let me back up here a bit.
I will go ahead and make some ACTUAL statements on my position rather than impose a question. Obviously some people when given the choice scoff instead of think.
When I say I am conservative politically. What that means to me are these things. (warning, derragatory statements inteded, if your offended, call the wahhhambulance to come to your aid. Grow up and read to understand)
LESS GOVERNMENT, you ****ing hippie *******s that think waiting in a bread line is better than going to walmart need to lay off the dope.
Honestly ask yourself. Would you rather buy 1 brand of toilet paper from the government (and have to wait for it) or would you rather have a choice.
I unlike many it seems, stop and realize I live in a capitalistic society, where choice in the things I may possess is really what its about. Giving up this choice is far from acceptable. Furthermore, how good do you think that toilet paper will be if there is only 1 company competing for it? (<-- RHETORICAL QUESTION)
WELFARE-omg can you say overhaul or dismissal. Don't misunderstand me. I know there are alot of families out there hanging on by a thread and yes they need help and I am willing to help them. But when you see a woman with 6 children pay with a food stamps card(welfare money) and climb into a hummer. THERE IS A PROBLEM!
HEALTH REGULATION- Dont give government any more control than they need, but give them enough so the health companies stop bending us over the backside of the thermometer. I sustained a large tear under my chin, for which I went to the hospital for. When I finally spoke to someone (2am and no one there waited 3 hours)I was told it would be 600+ for stitches. So I promptly said no thanks and left. Stitched it up myself and not 2 weeks later I get a bill for 100 bucks. So I eagerly called up the phone number I was so nicely given on my bill under the "Call here for question, comments, concerns". I was given a very polite greeting on the other end of the line by a nice lady. I said to her, "Yes Ma'am I have a question. I have recieved a Bill for services and I was wondering what 100 dollars of my money was paying for. Since I don't recall recieving any medial attention." She was nice and informed me that since I filled out paperwork there is a standard processing fee for medical paperwork regarding my file. I responded, "Ma'am, please assist me for I do not understand. Are you telling me that I am being charged 100 Dollars for someone to take the paperwork that I filled out and put it in a vanilla folder on a shelf?" Her response was somewhat unexpected but none the less entertaining, "Exactly" she said.
I thanked her kindly and ended my call. I was fortunate enough to record our conversation and proceded to forward it to Experian for them to deal with. Ironically, Experian sent me a bill for paperwork they filed on my behalf. So I skipped the formalities and fowarded it along to the Health Insurance provider. As fortune would have it I recieved notice that the matter of 100 Dollars was considered closed and I would recieve no futher issues.
Now. That long detailed story was there not only as entertainment but to make a point. That point being, If I can get fubar'd over something so small as a tear in my skin, what is happening to the guy that needs a triple bypass, or the child with lukemia. There is a problem in our society when it comes to things like this. We often refer to it as the ostrich syndrom. The only real problem is even if we dont bury our heads in the sand, letters to congress, rallies, etc will gain you no ground unless the health companies are required to follow standards.
BOARDERS - I live in a small area in Houston that is predominatly Hispanic. All my neighbors are Hispanic. Quite a few of my friends are hispanic and while I don't "get" thier culture and they dont "get" my whitlyness, we still have a great deal of respect for each other. That being said. CLOSE THE DAMN BOARDER. I am not racist. Call me one and your an idiot. There is a difference between protecting what is mine and yours(our country) and saying, "closing the boarders means you hate Mexicans". If you think that, do us a favor. Euthanize yourself, your intellect isnt fit for the progress of our society. REALIZE there is a difference please for the love of Starbucks.
I've safeguarded this country and its freedoms for far too long and in ways I only wish I could forget about to see it tear itself apart from the inside cause someone thinks its ok for illegal immigrants to have an achor-baby and get better service than its citizens.

Thats enough on my politics.
Society. This is where I become much more to the left, while still holding some principles that are predominantly right sided in place.
YES I think Our community should be able to walk abroad and recreate ourselves in the ways that we see fit.
That being said. (WARNING ANAOLGY IN USE)
Gay Rights Parade. Yes I am sure it created alot of awareness and probably acceptance. Good for them. Now why is it when my fiancee's 6 year old asks me what a Lesbian is do I get pissed the hell off? Here's why I think,
I think it is because I feel it is a parents job to educate thier children on matters of relationships and sex. WHEN THE PARENT DECIDEDS. Now Don't pipe in with school yard talk. I know I know. But what I am talking about here is different. Yes a 6 year old can grasp the concept of 2 mommies. So sure you could explain it away. But what about those precocious children that must know WHY? Do you have kids? I would have to say this is at least 70% of all children want to know why.

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Why is the sky Blue? Cause of the atmosphere. Why is there Atmosphere? So we can breath. Why do we breath? WHO ARE YOU CARL SAGAN?? You just grew out of diapers and want to know the fate of the world? CHILL BABY BUDDAH!!

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The arguments about the responsibility of the media are in there as well I know, however we all know that the press will air just about anything. Ok, well maybe not a fellow american getting his head cut off, but close.

Basically, my point is this. If you are gay, bi, lesbian, CD, TG, TS, TV etc etc etc (Even the military has less acronyms), Be that. Be happy your that. And shut the hell up about it. No one is stopping you. If you want Laws enacted to protect you. Do what you can to make it happen. THIS does not have to mean public irrelevant displays. A Parade gerates awareness sure, BUT THATS NOT A SIGNED PETITION OR A CALL TO YOUR SENATOR!
Everyone wants what they want and they want it now. This is so totally human its ridiculous. I know. I know. And yes a Parade makes things go faster as then the media gets involved and then the story of the rights comes out etc etc etc I KNOW.
I think in simple terms, there is a way to rock the boat without throwing people overboard.

I am not christian. I do not believe in Jebus, Dog, Kharmic Retribution, Zeus, Osiris, Ra, Allah Or any other such deity. My belief is simple. IF there is something out there.... its beyond my or anyone elses ability to understand it in even the most infantessimal way. As big as the Universe is, to think that I could grasp something that could create all that, is not only foolish but incredibly naive. (notice I said IF)
That being said.
Religion is the opiate of the masses. Right now there is a new religion in our country known as Secularism. Basically this means that if it has anything to do with Jebus or God, it must go.
Forget History. Screw it. Don't worry Little jimmy will learn all about Islam in school, but since the crusades were fired by the flames of Catholisizm, we're just gonna skip over that.
Now how does that relate to us? And How is that a social issue. Its a social issue everytime someone calls you a sinner. Its a social issue everytime someone denies you access to worship what ever you believe.
My answer is simple for me. But for many of you who are faithful to your beliefs, you are left in the cold. (yes I know there are some places available).
I do however think this one stems into the realm of acceptance. Although, remember that part a very large part of the US is what? Christian. And what do alot of Christians say we are? BAAAAAD!...

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Just remember, if you break one of his rules you go to a firey place where you burn in agony for all eternity reaping demented punishments and torture beyond any imagination; .... BUT HE LOVES YOU!

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And now since I have been ranting for sometime about all these things you have a question, WTF does all this crap mean Kryss? Could you have strayed any further from the topic?
In short, yes I could, but I wont. What this means is this.
All these things, Religion, Politics, Children, Seniors, Beliefs, Principles, Goals, Ideals. All of it is intertwined. That's what Makes us a society.
We are a part of it regardless of how we feel about it or how it feels about us. Do I like Society? ME? Hell no. I think 90% of people walk around in the dark going to thier jobs, going home, eating a pizza pocket and going to sleep. Its the ones that make/made a concious decision to be different regardless of the opression they may feel for not fitting into the "norm" as society deems. And when I say Society deems I mean it as this.
When 90% of your societies people think gay marriage is wrong, the likelyhood of you throwing a party and walking down a street isnt going to change that. The same principles apply to all things. The majority sets the rules. We are in a Minority, although i think there are alot of us in hiding for fear of persecution, but regardless we are. Thus, if you want to make change. DO so. And if you really want to make big change? Find a way to do so without rocking the boat. Why you ask my precocious one? Why not rock the boat? I will tell you why. Because when the Majority thinks its in controll its happy. To the Majority, ignorance is bliss.

And one that note I will leave you to ponder something further.

For those of you that are still confused, those that are in dismay and think, How can this guy be one of us. Realize that your assumptions of me were wrong, that everyone even you has opinions that contradict each other, and lastly realize that I am but a simple butterfly. Flap Flap Flapping my wings, trying to avoid a friggin semi that is barreling at me at 100 miles an hour known as my life.

And no, I do not suffer from a low self image or self esteem, nor do I feel opressed. Truth be told, I dont go out in public dressed because I would WANT to be passable. As I am not, that is why I dont.

Holy crap can you people read into things in such a wrong way.

Now, stop debating symantecs with me and think about things. Form an original thought that brings NEW light on an issue we have touched on and let others expand on it.

The MAIN reason was to provoke thought. Not to have my post systematically torn apart by the grammar police. Although, I find it funny that if you commit sodemy in the south they put you in a cell with a guy who will sodemize you.

Night, and enjoy

You know what, forget all that.
For those that were offended, its was not my intent.
I will however not apologize. In my opinion, if you were offended, your being way to sensitive in thinking that I am somehow attacking you. I am not. My original post was there to make people think about how thier roles played its part in society and if morality was an issue that was able to be dissected.

Apearantly its easier to dissect the person who wrote the question than the questions intent.

If you think your misunderstood, try being me for 5 minutes. Where your thoughts go through you so fast you can barely hang on. (no I dont have ADD) I just think. And I spew my thoughts out there. Above you are looking at raw thought. Not me pretending or hiding or trying to be a dick.
Well at times at can be sure but the point is talk with me, not at me.
If you have question, then raise it. The petty holier than thow attitude only makes me think of you as a selfish introvert with no perspecitve.

So. Stop. go back, read the questions till they make sense. And if you have something to add then do so. If you read close enough, you will get my meanings.

I will now attempt to say good night without being so cryptic.
Æûε⌂
shit... oh well i tried.

You tried this on another forum also, well you aren't doing it here. This thread is now closed.