Have attitudes changed?

I am an admirer and i have often wondered how girls like yourselves are actually treated by society in general on a 'face to face' basis?

As the world becomes more tolerant/liberated/open minded in general (i know that's open to debate) i wondered if this has extended to crossdressers. As men become more 'in touch' with their feminine side have peoples attitudes changed over the years towards girls like yourselves? or is society still stuck firmly in the dark ages on this subject?

Btw, Girls this site is absolutely first-class. thankyou for making me so welcome, you ALL look stunning and i feel very lucky to have found you.

Most people nowadays are too busy doing their own thing to really notice or care much. It's mostly the older generation that's apt to pass judgement or some religious types. The news media doesn't help much as they stereotype crossdressers and folks who decide to transition. The hype is what counts to these people. If everyone were to basically mind their own business and have a live and let live attitude, the world would be a much better place. The main thing is how we view ourselves. I agree with you and think The Forum accomplishes a lot in that direction. Take care, Ericka Kay

It changes from person to person :)

As far as people tolerating cross dressing, I don't think much has changed, They still regard it as a no-no.

I can't grasp why people find such a harmless activity so offensive?

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Originally Posted by Gooeymac

I can't grasp why people find such a harmless activity so offensive?

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You're bending one of the fundamental unwritten rules of society: that there are only two genders and that your gender is permanently fixed. Crossdressing doesn't fit in most people's one-dimensional worldview, and that irritates them. I don't think most people really are offensed, more like surprised actually. When people react negatively, it's mostly on the same basis as people who hate homosexuals. They will claim that crossdressing is *wrong*. Either for religious reasons, because of societal dogmas, or because the unknown scares them.

I showed my friend a video footage from a crossdresser beauty pageant in thailand. He said "wow, I'm not watching that, some of them actually look attractive, and that's wrong". Obviously, nothing is wrong with an attractive crossdresser. What's actually wrong is that my friend doesn't know how to manage the contradictory, mixed up information in that: On one side he would refuse to be attracted to a man, yet crossdresing men can be sexually attractive to him. He doesn't know how to manage this, and thus, he declares that crossdressing is *wrong* and shouldn't be done, since it disturbs him.

My friend reacts like millions of others do all the time. He doesn't realise that, admitting a crossdresser is attractive doesn't make him gay (men are instinctively programmed to find feminine figures attractive, so it's natural), and that even if he was to face an attractive crossdresser, he wouldn't have to go out with him. He relies on a societal dogma to circle out crossdressing as some activity that is just *wrong* and that he can easily dismiss as an oddity. Since it's an oddity, he doesn't have to spend time trying to understand it: it's just odd.

Fair point Nyx, maybe i'm being too naive and simplistic.

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Originally Posted by Nyx

I showed my friend a video footage from a crossdresser beauty pageant in thailand. He said "wow, I'm not watching that, some of them actually look attractive, and that's wrong". Obviously, nothing is wrong with an attractive crossdresser. What's actually wrong is that my friend doesn't know how to manage the contradictory, mixed up information in that: On one side he would refuse to be attracted to a man, yet crossdresing men can be sexually attractive to him. He doesn't know how to manage this, and thus, he declares that crossdressing is *wrong* and shouldn't be done, since it disturbs him.

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This is a signs and signifiers issue, where the way we have learned to read the world through visual language is challenged and/or overthrown. For the open minded or intellectually curious this is the chance to engage with or expand their knowledge of the world. For the insular then it is a reason to leap into Dalek mode i.e. 'Does not compute...Does not compute... Exterminate... Exterminate!'

I should add that the middle ground is... Ignore it and it will go away :)

Attitudes are always changing...not necessarily for the better. And it depends on where you live. I know from being out in the coalfields and rural america, they are still super conservative. So you have to watch where you go and when you go out enfemme. Its more a pass or die trying thing. Hehehe

Love Karren

I haven't gone out around people yet other than my support group. So I can't answer on any contact yet. I will find out soon when I get my look right.

But, where I work crossdressing has come up a time or two. The feeling I get is that pretty much everyone I work with are not the ones I would want to run into while dressed. And the sad part is the I really like my co-workers they are good people but very close minded.

Will they ever find out about Beth? Not any time soon!:(

Personally I still think people don't understand it. Whilst do my weekly grocery shopping last week I saw one cross dresser, and whilst he/she looked fantastic and without a care in the world you could see those around him laughing and sniggering. I'm guessing that if you've got the guts to go out (I haven't) then you get used to it but anyone who does something different from the norm tends to be scrutinised and looked upon.

Attitudes are passed on from generation to generation, but with more social interaction by those who are different from the socially accepted normal, small in roads are made to change the prejudices and attitudes of the past.

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Originally Posted by Nyx

What's actually wrong is that my friend doesn't know how to manage the contradictory, mixed up information in that: On one side he would refuse to be attracted to a man, yet crossdresing men can be sexually attractive to him. He doesn't know how to manage this, and thus, he declares that crossdressing is *wrong* and shouldn't be done, since it disturbs him.

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Your example captures the syndrome beautifully, Nyx. Similar 'logic' was used in the 60s & 70s to defend why men shouldn't wear their hair long. If a 'normal' guy sees a long-haired guy from behind, he might mistake him for a girl, and that would be wrong. The implication being that the 'normal' guy would get turned on by seeing the long-haired 'girl' & then find out she was really a guy, thus the long-haired guy was tricking the 'normal' guy into being turned on by a guy: psychic gay rape. :rolleyes: Plenty of completely straight, non-trans long-haired hippie guys got gay-bashed purely for this. :sad:

I believe that CD-phobia is essentially just homophobia: homophobes don't know or can't comprehend the difference, generally. And homophobic men tend to have this hostility at being aroused by another man. They may not even be conscious of the arousal, but I bet it is there.

It's scary when a bunch of guys want to beat you up because they thought you were a girl for a few milliseconds... :sad: I've been chased a couple of times while dressed, both during the day & the night, but I've never actually been bashed while dressed (I have had people say unpleasant things, though). Those sort of things tend to keep one's dressing activities indoors for a few months...

Robin

I think as Karen said in some areas of the country/world things are progressive and people really dont' care if it does not affect them personally. They'll play along, be polite, treat you with some amount of dignity. In other places you could lose life and limb and certainly in other parts of the world which have strict gender roles and even laws on homosexuality enforced one could find themselves inprisoned or worse.

I know when my husband and I have gone out it is 50/50 ...50% of the people will buy the image you present ....and 50% the people read you but still dont' care.

I think we have a longgg way to go before you see a tg person in the US hold any major office or some high important position.....unless there is one holding it now that is on the down-low......Janet Reno comes to mind....:tongueout

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Originally Posted by Gooeymac

I am an admirer and i have often wondered how girls like yourselves are actually treated by society in general on a 'face to face' basis?

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Well I don't try to pass, a good majority of the people treat me normal. An occational stare or odd look, but that is about it. Only once has anyone said anything to me.

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As the world becomes more tolerant/liberated/open minded in general (i know that's open to debate) i wondered if this has extended to crossdressers. As men become more 'in touch' with their feminine side have peoples attitudes changed over the years towards girls like yourselves? or is society still stuck firmly in the dark ages on this subject?

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Times are changing. I saw an older teen putting gas in his car with his friends with eye liner on. I've also seen older teens and guys in their 20's wearing womens jeans on several occations. Let's see what else, cosmetics companies are coming out with mens lines of skin products and bronzer. So imo I think times are changing, it's slow but it is.

What problems people may, or may not, have with me have nothing to do with wardrobe. But I'm blessed to live in a place where there are a lot of TG persons out and about and its become no big deal, and were there are so many really extreme people working very hard at being extreme, that I come across as bland. Which is perfect. What is a guy in a skirt next to someone with green tattoos on their face, or young ladies wearing fetish gear in Union Square?

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Originally Posted by kathy gg

I think as Karen said in some areas of the country/world things are progressive and people really dont' care if it does not affect them personally. They'll play along, be polite, treat you with some amount of dignity. In other places you could lose life and limb and certainly in other parts of the world which have strict gender roles and even laws on homosexuality enforced one could find themselves inprisoned or worse.

I know when my husband and I have gone out it is 50/50 ...50% of the people will buy the image you present ....and 50% the people read you but still dont' care.

I think we have a longgg way to go before you see a tg person in the US hold any major office or some high important position.....unless there is one holding it now that is on the down-low......Janet Reno comes to mind....:tongueout

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Kathy,

Yes, we do know some TG persons in high important positions who unfortunately have to remain in the closet. One of our closest friends lost his race for political office when he was outed as a crossdresser. Georgina Beyer is a post op TS who for the past 8 years has served as MVP for the New Zealand parliament - she is the highest ranking TG person in an elected position in the world but that is New Zealand and not the USA or Canada.

Hugs,

Melanie

In general, reactions vary. Some people are not agreeable to the whole crossdressing concept. (For insight as to why that may be, refer to the post by NYX above. I think she hit the nail on the head.) Other people--regardless of their opinion(s) of me--will at least treat me with dignity and respect, which is the best outcome I can possibly hope for. This is probably an over-simplified answer to your question, but it's just my opinion.

Yesterday I picked-up a job application for a school job that requires finger printing, and under sex it had,"male" "female" "Both". It took everything I had to mark male.

I intentionally stay very low key for a number of very valid reasons. Regardless, most objections or comments come from sales clerks. Diversity policies or not sometimes they just cant stop themselves. So with that in mind I am usually armed with some really choice comebacks that leave their jaws open. Coming out to them will usually have them totally flustered. "Oh yes dear, I really want to try on this bikini. Where is the fitting room?"

As for being out in public in other than drab, as I said, very low key and I rarely get a glance with the exception of some high school confidential who has yet to learn discretion. I can usually ignore them with no problem. One occasion I did confront them (there were 3 girls about 17 or so) and they had no idea how to handle it so they left.

Society may be changing in many ways but the old stigmas are still there and always will be. Discrimination is alive and well and usually found with a mob mentality, not on an individual basis.

For me the idea is to blend no matter how I am presenting. Draw attention and you can expect reactions that are most likely adverse.

:hugs:
Kimberley

I can say that in my lifetime I have seen huge changes in regards to acceptance (or maybe resigned lack of interest?) to cross dressers, and trans gendered members of society. One gurl I knew who was a cross dresser in the early 1960's (think it was 1961) actually was hauled out of a coffee shop in my home town, finger printed and booked as a "deviant" which was utterly devastating to say the least for her and the family.

Have we got it better now? I'd have to say yes, but it is entirely dependant upon where you live... There are still some countries, administrations and local "red necks" that still can make things unpleasant for us...

Cheers
Ava

I think the attitudes are different depending on where you go. I live in a very small town on the east coast of Canada where people are not so open minded as they are in the big cities....I don't think it would go over so well if I came out in this town as a matter of fact I think I would probably be run out of town

With those friends I have told, I've come up against no problems about my dressing -- only my father, who is a lot older than most I've come out to (my peer group).

I think acceptance is becoming easier as the newer generations come into this world. If we encourage acceptance, and show that TGism is in our lives everywhere, then we can hope for a better future. :)

Gurls, thankyou for the insight into the problems you still encounter while indulging in a harmless activity. As if life isn't dificult enough already for you?

Plain and simple it's fear. Fear from women who might run into a TG in a changing room or bath and that a something perverse might take place. Fear from men that they might hit on a TG and not know it till they get too involved with that person or heaven for bid they they become intimate. Then there are the one's who for what ever reason take great pleasure in taking a verbal shot at someone who is different just to make themselves feel important.

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Originally Posted by Nigella

Attitudes are passed on from generation to generation, but with more social interaction by those who are different from the socially accepted normal, small in roads are made to change the prejudices and attitudes of the past.

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:iagree:

What she said.

Robin

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Originally Posted by Gooeymac

I can't grasp why people find such a harmless activity so offensive?

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Well maybe you should try. Dont get me wrong I agree with you, but I think it always does us well to see things from others perspective too.
Take careBev

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Originally Posted by Shawna25

I think the attitudes are different depending on where you go. I live in a very small town on the east coast of Canada where people are not so open minded as they are in the big cities....I don't think it would go over so well if I came out in this town as a matter of fact I think I would probably be run out of town

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Let's not be too fast to stereotype the small towners. I was trying to get a makeover or makeup help somewhere outside of the city area I live in in order to avoid seeing an unwanted familiar face from work or something, and called a really small town with a Merle Norman, explained to the woman what I was after. She was very accepting but didn't have a private area. I was especially impressed that she even offered to lend me some makeover videos to borrow and take home. On the phone, I was a total stranger to her but yet she trusted me enough to make the offer with the condition I would return them! Pretty sweet of her.

My experience in being out in public dressed as a woman is that people don’t seem fearful of CDs and they generally just go on about their business without comment or rude objection.

Now, having said that, I also believe that there is a difference on how people behave VS what they likely think about CDing. AS Kathy GG said, in some parts of the country people are more tolerant and just go on about their business, even if a CD is read. But even in those cases of apparant indifference by onlookers, I have a sneeking suspicion that in their minds they don't truely understand or relate to a man dressed as a woman. The good news here is that even when they don't really accept or understand CDing, they generally don't behave badly.

I would just say that in many parts of the country, people have a "public face" where the society's norm is civility, and many of those same people also have "private face" and private thoughts of doubt, dislike, or even disgust, which they tend to keep to themselves. There are exceptions of course.

The fact that CDs can enjoy being out dressed as women without creating a public disturbance may be evidence of progress toward a more civil tone and public accomodation of things that are different. The more appropriate we dress and act in public places should help more and more people adopt a public face that allows them to treat us as the woman we all love to be on occasion.

Diane

I think that they are, but slowly.. some are affronted and take persoanal issue by anything out of the norm, including crossdressing.. Others are quite accepting, but I think by far the larger group are only politely amused, and could care less.

Hi Bev, are you suggesting that i dress as a woman myself to experience the public response? Because i don't even dress privately let alone publicly- LOL X

During the past 16 years my wife and I have set up 28 cruises for transgendered persons and their significant others. Our groups have ranged in size from 25 to 50 among 1500 to 3000 other passengers for cruises of 5 to 14 days from such ports as Miami, New York, New Orleans, Houston, Los Angeles, Vancouver and Tahiti. On every cruise the response has been the same. 90% of the passengers think that if you dress as a woman you must be gay. After the first days of the cruise most passengers want to talk and we educate them about our community. By the end of the cruise 50% of the passengers or more become very accepting and supportive of transgendered persons. On one cruise out of New York one of the CD's in our group performed in the passenger talent show on the last day of the cruise. WHen she ended her song she said to the audience of 1400, "Most of you know me as Joanie (and dropping her voice) my name is John and I am a crossdrsser. Our group of crossdressers and our wives want to thank all of you for your understanding and acceptance during the past week". 1400 people in the theatre stood up and gave our group a standing ovation. I think the secret to understanding and acceptance iof the public s acting and dressing dignified and educating the public that we are no different than most poeple they know.

Hugs,

Melanie

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Originally Posted by Gooeymac

Hi Bev, are you suggesting that i dress as a woman myself to experience the public response? Because i don't even dress privately let alone publicly- LOL X

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I'm sure Bev can eloquently answer for herself, but in the meantime, I believe she was suggesting that you should try to understand the logic & feelings of those people who are offended by crossdressing, not that you should try CDing yourself.

I prefer to understand my 'enemies'. It makes them a bit more predictable, even if it doesn't excuse them.

Robin

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Originally Posted by Gooeymac

Hi Bev, are you suggesting that i dress as a woman myself to experience the public response? Because i don't even dress privately let alone publicly- LOL X

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No not at all. Im just saying that we should always try to see things from the perspective of others in the hope that we can have a more balanced view. I do not have any problems with crossdressing men whatsoever, infact I like it, but I'd never think any the worst of someone who did have problems and I would endeavour to see things from their point of view in a bid to be more understanding.
BEVxxxxx

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Originally Posted by Bev06 GG

No not at all. Im just saying that we should always try to see things from the perspective of others in the hope that we can have a more balanced view. I do not have any problems with crossdressing men whatsoever, infact I like it, but I'd never think any the worst of someone who did have problems and I would endeavour to see things from their point of view in a bid to be more understanding.
BEVxxxxx

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If everyone had this attitude, the world will be a happier place.

Unfortunately there are always going to be stubborn people around who refuse to accept others ways.

So Bev, why do you like crossdressing men then?

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Originally Posted by noname

Well I don't try to pass, a good majority of the people treat me normal. An occational stare or odd look, but that is about it. Only once has anyone said anything to me.



Times are changing. I saw an older teen putting gas in his car with his friends with eye liner on. I've also seen older teens and guys in their 20's wearing womens jeans on several occations. Let's see what else, cosmetics companies are coming out with mens lines of skin products and bronzer. So imo I think times are changing, it's slow but it is.

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There is a big difference between wearing eyeliner and women's jeans and presenting as female. Just as women are started wearing less makeup and pants many years, it didn't make the "now" that much easier for FtM crossdressers. In many cases, it made it harder for them.

When I see companies coming out with men's bras, men's panties, and men's skirts, then you can say times are changing.

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Originally Posted by ReginaK

When I see companies coming out with men's bras, men's panties, and men's skirts, then you can say times are changing.

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There are such companies, but

1. They charge the earth

2. Would the majority of CDs feel comfortable wearing things that are made for men. even though they have feminine undertones?
:devil:

I haven't had time to write about it, but I'm come out to several friends during the past month and had nothing but acceptance. So yes, I'd say times have changed.

I live in a very small town, most of the people here are very close minded, it took the town almost five years to accept the Ammish families that moved in. crossdressers would probably be stoned.

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Originally Posted by Melanie R

On one cruise out of New York one of the CD's in our group performed in the passenger talent show on the last day of the cruise. WHen she ended her song she said to the audience of 1400, "Most of you know me as Joanie (and dropping her voice) my name is John and I am a crossdrsser. Our group of crossdressers and our wives want to thank all of you for your understanding and acceptance during the past week". 1400 people in the theatre stood up and gave our group a standing ovation.

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Wow! Reading this has bought tears of joy to my eyes. :happy: Thanks, Melanie. Keep up the good work!

Robin