Discrimination

Ok so something has been driving me crazy. A crossdresser came in for an interview the other day at my work. Everyone around the office thought that she would be a good fit well qualified and everything. Well today one of the hiring managers comes in and I hear him wisper to another supervisor "we can't hire this person" when my boss asks why he says they aren't the kind of person we want working here. I really want to say something because this situation really disgusts me but I really need this job what do you all think?

Ask yourself if the shoe was on the other foot.

Today, not tomorrow, is the time to ~

Change the world (for the better).


But tomorrow will do.

How do you or anyone else know this person is a cross dresser??

She was dressed up long hair womens jeans and top. Not particularly dressed in drab.

This is nothing more than a survival situation. You need your job.

I know that sounds a bit crude but I'm telling you this simply because I lost my job yesterday. I have a very strong support group who has offered me anything I need. I am not worried about a place to live or money, but I still have that lost feeling that we all get when we are out of work.

Keep us posted to what happens!

I've lost all the jobs where they found out I was a crossdresser. Don't out yourself!

I assume that the "they" is crossdressers. Do you know this is for sure? To overhear something is usually not enough to make a judgement. The reference could have been "They" meaning....felons or convicted molestors or anything. You assumed that they were talking about crossdressing. I think it would be wise for you to make sure before you voice your disapproval!

On the other hand, if you are correct....then you could put a note in the suggestion box! "Hire people based on their qualifications" Just because someone is pretty should not disqualify them from getting a job!

I don't know what the job is for but I would not wear jeans to an interview if it is a office job.

Having said that there is really nothing you can say. The hiring manager can simply say that person is not qualified. :(

It would be smart to find out what the objections to hiring this person are. If you are not in the hiring loop, what you think won't matter. Having said that, if you are on good terms with your boss, you might remind him that discrimination in employment, is not a charge the company may want to deal with. While this is blatant discrimination in my opinion (which is all this is), unless the person who made this statement get's specific (as to "They), then it would be a hard road to prove. If you have a good relationship with your boss, feel him out to find out more.

Hello,
Depending on what the job was that she was applying for? would the job require her to be in contact with customers etc? The public isnt ready to deal with a transgendered person on a non intrusive manner, much less dealing with a TG in a personal up close sort of way. What were the qualifications for that particular job? If she was under qualified then I can see the reasoning of your boss. however is she possesed at the very least minimum qualifications, andyour boss disqualified her for being TG he could be discriminatory. I believe that would be hard to prove if you went over your bosses head. Not to mention that perhaps you might be outted, or even be terminated for your actions. If you could relay a message to the HR dept annonymusly, informming them of this decision, maybe the harm can be undone. Personally, as sad as this is, I would not get involved if you are not involved with the hiring process.

the job does not have personal contact with customers. I am good friends with one of the people on the hiring loop and he told me that what I thought I heard was exactly correct. They are going to try to claim that she was not qualified in order to get away with this. She took a test and scored higher than most of us that work here currently. That is really what bugs me she could have been a very qualified coworker which would make everyones life a little easier. We are a somewhat small company I cant say too much due to the fact that they could be in very big trouble but there is no question that this was about her being a crossdresser and we have no hr. I guess I just have to bite the bullet and deal but it really does bug the crap out of me.

The bottom line is that a business should be able to set whatever criteria they want for hiring. What they are doing might ethically be wrong, but the hiring manager may be feeling they are doing the right thing. This is different than a skin color issue because we can blend in with other people, where as it is pretty difficult to hide your skin color.

Personally, I would not dress for any job other than what I though would be the right attire. Any of us crossdressers should consider how our actions affect others. What would be wrong with dressing in the proper male attire for a job? The only exception I would consider past this is one who is doing the required 24/7 female attire prior to SRS. Still, nobody should be able to tell an employer how to run their business beyond sensible safety regulations and the likes.

How do such laws read anyway? I am not familiar with them. I might do some research, but at the moment, I am in the dark to such an example.

I say this as a lifelong crossdresser. If you need a job, and you want the job, and you are a guy, then dress as a guy when you apply for the job, and leave the crossdressing at home. Most of us don't understand what we do, so how can we expect others to understand and accept it.
Discrimination exists. It's wrong, but employers have many ways to get around it. I would much rather enjoy my crossdressing in private, or outside the workplace, than spend my life crusading and demanding acceptance and losing. The fewer people you come out to, the better off you will be.

"With limited exceptions, the following actions constitute a violation the Human Rights Act:"

"In Employment...
...when, because of race, color, creed, religion, national origin, sex, marital status, sexual orientation, status with regard to public assistance, disability or age:"

Good law! The problem is getting it litigated....

And there you are, no different except maybe not quite ready to do the same. Don't beat yourself up over it! Gawd, I can't imagine going to a job interview in Teresa-mode, but I sure admire anyone who is so sure of themselves to do something like that. Management does such things because they are scared; of higher-ups, stockholders, the "market", whomever. As people they may be as welcoming as you or I but look out for number 1. Sad world, ain't it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Felicity

Personally, I would not dress for any job other than what I though would be the right attire. Any of us crossdressers should consider how our actions affect others. What would be wrong with dressing in the proper male attire for a job?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Melinda G

I say this as a lifelong crossdresser. If you need a job, and you want the job, and you are a guy, then dress as a guy when you apply for the job, and leave the crossdressing at home. [...] The fewer people you come out to, the better off you will be.

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I think it should be pretty obvious the person in question is a transitioning TG, dressing as she must.

She deserves any possible support because she is fighting your fight.

Alone, seemingly.

I really wish that I could support her at least one of my coworkers agrees that this is an outrage. If I come on too strongly about this they could fire me I support my family I cant take the chance of losing my job. I know I am probably making excuses she is one of the bravest people I have ever met and I think she deserves the same respect as any woman applying for a job.

I think he only comment you can make to your friend who is in the hiring loop.

It would be a pity if we miss out on a person who has the right skills for the job

If they are the right person for the job, then hire them. The rest does not matter. Will she help you make money (and I bet she will), then go for it.

Aside from that, if you will not stand up for her, who will? If you will not stand up for her, how in the name of anything holy can you in any morals or ethics even think anyone else should ever stand up for you?

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

And in this deal, baby, oy vie, you are the jew.

And Felicity is wrong about "The bottom line is that a business should be able to set whatever criteria they want for hiring" and not just because there are non-discrimination laws on the books that are for the good of the nation, but because the company has a legal responsibility to promote the fiduciary growth of the fiscal entity. Any manager who would let his personal opinions interfere with the best person for the job in that job should be fired at once. Not to mention one who would expose the company to legal complaints.

I wouldn't CD for a job interview. Yes, it's "wrong" to be denied a job over what clothes you wear. But, at present, it's a part of life and we all know this. When YOU own the company, YOU can hire whom you want. Until then..... The owner of the company can say, "There's no I in team. The only I is what I tell you to do"

I know that your right kat but can you honestly say that if you were in the same position you would give up your own well being (or in my position to pay the rent and food) to stand up for a belief that many disagree with and most keep in hiding. I feel pretty terrible about my failure to be a strong woman and stand up for my fellow TG but I just cant do it.

Megan:

I know it's not the "High Road", but as you say making an issue in this case might endanger your job and effect other persons in your family, who are not directly involved.

So, this might seem a little sneaky but since you have ascertained that your management types haven't been ethical, here's a compromise scenario which might be somewhat helpful.

If you can, get this person's name and try to contact her anonymously. Just write a note, or make a phone call from a phone booth. Let her know that she might have grounds for a discrimination lawsuit and that she might want to start asking some tough questions about this.

Yes, it's not an ideal situation. And yes, you might cost your company a lot of money, but stuff like this needs to get addressed. If we don't start to be pro-active and trying to effect some of our outcomes, then maybe The CD Community will get exactly what it has earned with non-involvement, which is a whole lot of nothin' and the back of somebody's hand!

Personally, I'm getting tired of being a second-class citizen. I don't want sympathy, I just don't want discrimination and bad treatment. If this person is the best qualified and they "jobbed" her because she is TG, that deserves a response! I think you might feel a lot better, if you could do something about that.

peace and love, Joanie

Well I have, and for the above reasons. That is was the right thing for the company to do. In terms of the law. In terms of money. That it was the right thing overall, well, that's just a bonus.

I have had six secretaries in my life. I fought hard to get the gay guy hired when the others did not want him. Turned out, he was worth the other five, five times over. Best secretary ever.

If the crossdresser is a much better candidate for the job than all the other applicants, then I think they'd be stupid not to hire her, and everyone should tell them that. "You mean to say you aren't going to hire her just because you have a personal problem with it? You want us to lose money because of your personal unimportant ideas?"

If, on the other hand, there's another really good candidate who isn't a crossdresser, it would be harder to argue for hiring the crossdresser.

This might not sound very nice, but IMHO, a person who is an obvious CD in a business situation where they may have to meet with clients and associate with other workers, does NOT demonstrate "good judgement".

All Cders know that that CDing can make a LOT of people very "uncomfortable" to say the least. This can result in lost business and friction and hostility in the workplace. Buisnesses are not in business to upset people or make social statements. Anyone who would deliberately and inapropriatley upset people (even for the right reasons) is not using their common sense, and hence would be disqualified for THAT reason alone---CD or not.

I do, however see no reason for NOT hiring a CDer who is discreet about it--either as a "secret hobby" done on their own time, or being 100% "passible" at the work place.

Let it go! We all make choices. Her's was apparantly to dress full time and that certainly will foster discrimination. If your's is to keep your job, let it go.


:hugs:

Penny

looks like a Kobayashi Maru

Whether she's had her SRS or still transforming, it's still discrimination!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by megan81

Ok so something has been driving me crazy. A crossdresser came in for an interview the other day at my work. Everyone around the office thought that she would be a good fit well qualified and everything. Well today one of the hiring managers comes in and I hear him wisper to another supervisor "we can't hire this person" when my boss asks why he says they aren't the kind of person we want working here. I really want to say something because this situation really disgusts me but I really need this job what do you all think?

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your profile didn't say which state you are in---many states have laws which outlaw discrimination not only based on sexual orientation but also discrimination based on gender expression(Maine has such a statute)---if you do get up the courage to confront your boss about this you might want to remind him or her that there may be such a statute where you live.

Go to your HR rep at work. You don't have to disclose yourself merely state that you overheard discriminatory comments coming from a particular individual and don't think it is right. It could have been anyone, not just a crossdresser they were talking about. So this is a broader scope issue that could potentially get your company in trouble. You're just looking out for the company....yadda yadda yadda.....

Peggy

California has such a law..........

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MsJanessa

your profile didn't say which state you are in---many states have laws which outlaw discrimination not only based on sexual orientation but also discrimination based on gender expression(Maine has such a statute)---if you do get up the courage to confront your boss about this you might want to remind him or her that there may be such a statute where you live.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by sterling12

If we don't start to be pro-active and trying to effect some of our outcomes, then maybe The CD Community will get exactly what it has earned with non-involvement, which is a whole lot of nothin' and the back of somebody's hand!

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Dig it, bigtime!

Think about it, people. We meet here on this forum because we crave community which validates our existence.

From there, we advocate throwing our own to the lions?

Expressing indifference in public just don't make sense.

If she was a CD, then maybe not a good idea to dress for an interview. However if she is transitioning then she HAS to live as a female!
Is there any way you could try and educate those responsible without jeapordizing your own situation? IE. My brother in law / cousin / friend is a crossdresser or transsexual and try to explain what the reality of it is? Maybe send them a link to a website.
http://www.geocities.com/senorita_cd/menu.htm
This one has alot of great info on it. I totally understand that you can't put yourself in a situation where you could lose you ability to provide for your family, but if you're able to educate just one person about what CDing really is, whether or not she gets the job, you'll feel better about it! :2c:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carroll

looks like a Kobayashi Maru

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Sounds like someones a Strar Trek fan, alternatively you could cheat and use the grapevine and casually ask what happened to the other canidates.

Above girl was right. Get a note to him. Tell him/her to see a lawyer. Also to write to the state attorney general. And call state equal employment agency. Get the Attorney General to phone the company president. And...take a careful look through your employee handbook. Does it cover this situation? Is he gay? There are more laws that protect gays than CD or TS. There are plenty of good gay lawyers. But it would be better if action were taken before someone else were hired.

Erica--local lawyer--what do you think--any free advice or referrals?

the company has a legal responsibility to promote the fiduciary growth of the fiscal entity."

"Fiduciary growth" Don't know what state that is from...maybe former USSR.

"What happens if we loose money in the forth quarter".....ok who is going to jail for this one"!....not! Companies go broke by the hundreds, but rarely do the CEO's go to jail unless the stockholders can prove fraud!

Discrimination, of all types, is a problem that is common in corporate and government offices. (Hope everyone can believe that)

I did not look the other way, and I ended up settling out of court, because the expense was going to cost me everything I had....and the opposition knew it! Even though I had a paper trail, and could prove what they did. I could not afford to get it into court; the cost would have been in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. That is the reality of our legal system. (Hope you can believe that, too)

That was not fun!

Now, I am a crossdresser having fun out there!

Sounds like the hiring proceedures I've seen many times. The best qualified do not nessesarily fit HR's and Managements idea of what type of person they see in the job. Remember, they don't have give a reason why they didn't hire that person, as they are from outside of the company.

In plain english, which the law never is - it means that a company has a legal obligation to make money for its stockholders, period - no more, no less. Hardly a USSR deal, that is pure greed at the point where the rubber hits the road.

Hence, doing anything that would place the company in a posistion to make less money, or to lose money, is actionable in a court. Which is why shareholders sue boards of directors and the like so often.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by carla smith

"With limited exceptions, the following actions constitute a violation the Human Rights Act:"

"In Employment...
...when, because of race, color, creed, religion, national origin, sex, marital status, sexual orientation, status with regard to public assistance, disability or age:"

Good law! The problem is getting it litigated....

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That was never passed into law and it is very that it will ever be passed in the form it was last presented. Therefore since it is not law, one cannot litigate on the basis of said law.

Let the issue go. It will do you no good to argue this issue. Your first responsibility is to your family, not to a stranger or some group affiliation. You also have a responsibility to your employer. If you know that they are doing something illegal, then it is proper to inform someone in management that they may have some legal exposure on this issue, but if you do that, you must first know the details and be able to recite them and the relevant law chapter and verse. Sounds like a losing proposition to you, in my opinion, unless you have a legal or human resources background.

The person in question probably was not serious about the job. No one who wants a job enough interviews in jeans and a top. Even if the person is a transitioning TS, she should have known enough to wear a presentable suit. Every advice guide always lists appearance, dress, and presentation as some of their top recommendations.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

Unless you know all the facts about the person: are they transitioning, what are their qualifications, what their background is, etc, mind you business. If the person is not in an actual transition, a man dressed as a woman can be considered inappropriate, just as if he wore a dirty t shirt and ripped jeans to an interview. Or perhaps he expressed some sort of political or social view that is objectionable to the company, or just plain had the wrong attitude.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by carla smith

"With limited exceptions, the following actions constitute a violation the Human Rights Act:"

"In Employment...
...when, because of race, color, creed, religion, national origin, sex, marital status, sexual orientation, status with regard to public assistance, disability or age:"

Good law! The problem is getting it litigated....

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This person is reported to have signs of gender variations due to their manor of dress. Do we know this person was gay ? If no then where does the discrimination come it ? I can tell you there is no law covering cross gender in Ohio as of 2004. And the federal government does not either as of 2004. The thing about discrimination laws are that they only cover certain types of discrimination. And being cross gendered is not one of them. On the other hand what Felicity said about the bottom line. A business employs people as long as it's profitable. How would you feel as a business owner if you lost business because an employee didn't take baths ? Maybe that person making the comment was saying, even if this person was the best at what they were hiring for. How could they take the chance that customers would do business with them employing that cross gendered person. And would that person be a distraction in the work place ? I'm all for hiring the best what ever for the job. But then we all don't think alike do we ? So you can tell your lawyer to pick up his briefs and chase an ambulance.

Most states have human rights laws...such as the one I quoted.

You should be aware of the laws in your jurisdiction.

Here is some info from the great state of Washington

Governor Chris Gregoire signed ESHB 2661 into law after the 2006 Legislative session making nondiscrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, including gender identity, the law in Washington State. The new law became effective as of June 7, 2006. The Washington State Human Rights Commission (WSHRC) views this new jurisdiction as a natural extension of civil rights.

Here you will find some of the guidelines that are recommended to managers

http://www.hum.wa.gov/generalInfo/links.htm
click on sexual orientation on the left side of the screen

scroll down to Transgender Issues in the Work Place (.pdf)

Gosh i love you girls. You stay on a subject until it is fully detailed!

My 2 cents:

Cent 1) unless you know your state law on hiring TG persons, you have no evidence of a civil law violation. And with civil law violations it is up to the victim to cure the transgression by bringing a lawsuit; and,

Cent 2) there are a lot of assumptions about this applicant being a victim. Showing up in womens clothes may be the applicants way of testing her prospective employer. I seriously doubt she is any less savy a CD than the girls on this board - and maybe she really wants to work where she'll be accepted - and what better way to find out than to show up as who you are. She might turn this job down even if the employer was compelled to offer it to her.

OK, I promised I'd stop at two cents . . .

You need to put YOUR priorities in place first. If they can be met while challenging the status quo then fine. (ie. you can afford to lose your job.)

After that all you can do is ask a few questions that will cause a few brain cells to cluster and hope for the best.

It isnt fair, I agree but the fight for the job is hers, not yours. I know it sounds cruel but it is also life. Ideally she should have applied enhomme then after she was WELL established perhaps made the motions to coming out if the work conditions were accepting.

:hugs:
Kimberley

you have to stand for something, or you will fall for anything. it is not fair this person needs a job why not give her a try...
in the new year i am looking for a new job as marissa. i am not looking forward to it. i would rather go through a sex change without the anesthetic.. then deal with employers who just don't understand

MJ, Seriously, we all know what you'll be up against. There are some good folks out there - you will find a place. You'll no doubt have some interesting insights to share, so check back and let the boards know how it goes.

If not us, then who? If not now, then when? Dr. King would remind us that "wait means never."

8 states (California, Rhode Island, Washington state. Minn. Ill. Maine, New Mexico and Hawaii) and 84 cities and counties have laws on the books prohibiting discrimination on the basis of gender identity or expression. These laws cover about 1/3 of the population of the USA. All those laws were brought into being by people like us, for people like us. Oh yeah, sure a lot of them are in progressive areas filled with liberals like San Francisco, or Ann Arbor, but hey, Dallas, Texas, Toledo, Ohio and De Kalb, Ill have them too.

Miss Felicitiy's own Moscow on the Willamette (Portland, OR)
has a very stong one.

Go to the site for THE TRANSGENDER LAW AND POLICY INSTITUTE "a non-profit organization dedicated to engaging in effective advocacy for transgender people in our society. The TLPI brings experts and advocates together to work on law and policy initiatives designed to advance transgender equality." They have complete lists of where, and a listing of what they protect and a lot of other helpful information.

The sad, simple truth of the matter is as longs as most CDs remain in the closet, CDs are not gonna get it together for these important battles.

But, oh, sure, after the fight and the dust settles, they'll all wanna party.

Well DT, everyone wants to eat the cake, they just don't feel like baking it.

Best thing I've ever done as a TG person was get involved in the Human Rights Comission working on these issues. I met so many girls, in so many situtions, it changed my life in nothing but good ways.