Makeover??? She can't even deal with the eyebrows!!!

Hey ladies,

Well...I didn't even have to approach "Sue" about the possibility of the makeover. Here is part of the conversation we had this morning prior to her leaving for work:

We are in our bedroom after finishing showering and finishing getting dressed. I have my glasses off. "Sue" comes up to me and is staring intensely at my eyebrows...I know instinctively what is coming now:

"Sue" - "Please don't do this again....you look like a FAG!"

Me: - "I like them...they look good...she did a terrific job. Besides, you can't hardly tell when I have my glasses on anyway."

"Sue" - "Yes you can...and I don't want people starting rumors...what's the matter with you anyway?"

Me:- "Eff em...I don't care what people think...I like them!"

'Sue" - (getting ready to leave...she is scowling at me intensely now) "Your impossible!"

She's leaving now totally disgusted...doesn't give me a kiss good-bye, which she always does...

Me: - "Don't I even get a kiss good-bye?"

She doesn't even turn around as she heads out the door to the garage...so I repeat the question.

"Sue" - (she turns around and comes back, still scowling she gives me a quick peck on the lips) -

"DON'T do this again!!" - "Sue" then leaves for work.


A lot more work to be done on the home front here acceptance wise I'm afraid. Well...it was a nice dream anyway...and still one hell of a good day yesterday too!! She can't take that away from me at least!!;)

Thanks ladies for listening and for all your sound advice. She is still a work in progress for me I'm afraid!


Love,
Chrissie:)

Christine:

So sorry to hear you're having a rough time. Perhaps you could thicken up the look of the brows by using an eyebrow pencil that's close to your hair color? Also you could meet "Sue" halfway by admitting they're plucked too severely and that next time you'll ask them not to make the eyebrows as thin. I know how you feel, it's a rough game of compromises unfortunately.

<<hugggs>> June

i told you .......you allready knew the answer ......hay girlfreind just a question ..........
any one ever tell abought like well them thingeys ,.............like well .....small steps?????????/

Christine, I don't know if this will help but when I started plucking my eyebrows I took it very slow so no one even noticed as they changed. This was over a period of a couple of months, maybe longer. Of course wifes notice everything about us. Good luck.

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Originally Posted by LindaTS

Christine, I don't know if this will help but when I started plucking my eyebrows I took it very slow so no one even noticed as they changed. This was over a period of a couple of months, maybe longer. Of course wifes notice everything about us. Good luck.

---

This was not the first time I had gotten my eyebrows done this way Linda. She reacted the same way then too. She is very old school about men being men and women being women...she has totally bought into all the societal thinking and conditioning of this. Maybe when we get to Florida and join Tri-Ess and she is able to meet with other GG's and talk with them, they can have some positive effect on changing this stereotypical way of thinking. It may be that I am too close to the situation here to be able to affect that kind of attitude change in her. Better to know at least what you are still dealing with, though it is somewhat disappointing for me as I had thought she was making some inroads here. Unfortunately for me, and us, she appears to have taken a step back in the understanding/acceptance process of who I really am.


Love,
Chrissie

Christine, I am still fairly new here but I have spent a lot of time reading alot of the old posts and can see where you and your wife have crossed great milestones together in your CDing quest and I am sure the you two will get across this one to just give her a little time to get used to them and maybe ask her for some sugestions on what she feels might look better for you and then go from their but remember
"colaberate dont comperamise" by colaberating you will come to an agreement that you both can live with, but if you comperamise then one of you will be giveing in and hurt feelings and resentment will be the result and nothing good can come out of that, from reading your posts it sounds like you have a real special lady their so I am sure you two will be able to work this out together.

:mad:

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Originally Posted by Tracie Lynn

Christine, I am still fairly new here but I have spent a lot of time reading alot of the old posts and can see where you and your wife have crossed great milestones together in your CDing quest and I am sure the you two will get across this one to just give her a little time to get used to them and maybe ask her for some sugestions on what she feels might look better for you and then go from their but remember
"colaberate dont comperamise" by colaberating you will come to an agreement that you both can live with, but if you comperamise then one of you will be giveing in and hurt feelings and resentment will be the result and nothing good can come out of that, from reading your posts it sounds like you have a real special lady their so I am sure you two will be able to work this out together.

---

I understand your point Tracie and the "collaborate don't compromise" comment too. I feel compelled to say some things now which may not go over too well with some of you in the forum here so be advised in advance.

I have been a CD, now TG as well, for 41 years since the age of 12. I have known my wife for 12 years. I was upfront about my being a CD from the beginning...I told her about it when we were still dating. She agreed to marry me knowing this. Even when I realized that I was TG and wanted to go on HRT I made sure she knew about it even though I know she wasn't happy about it, understandibly enough. I guess what I am leading up to is this: how long do I have to keep up this "facade" of projecting an image both to my wife and the general public that I am a REAL MAN, by THEIR definition of the same? I have been playing an actor playing a role for almost all of my life. Is this to go on indefinitely just because my wife can't come to terms with the fact that the man she thought she married is really a woman inside? Have I been totally unreasonable here? I have made every effort since 1993 when we first got together to keep who I really am under wraps so as not to cause her problems either with her career, or her family and friends. But what about me? When am I ever gonna be allowed to be who I really am....ME....CHRISTINE? Why is my wife allowed to define the parameters of just who I will be in the outside world....who gave her that kind of dictatorial authority? I know I didn't. I didn't marry her because I wanted someone to boss me around and make decisions for me 24/7. I lived very capably on my own from the time I was 20 until I married her at 43. I didn't HAVE to get married either. I married her because I fell in love, didn't want to spend the rest of my life alone, and thought I was marrying a very compassionate and good hearted woman who understood what I was all about and was accepting of it. So tell me...what have I done wrong here? Who is the one who is really being hurt and their total existence as a human being being affected here?

It's one thing to be not be accepted for who you are by society...but it's totally another thing to not be accepted by the person in your life that you need, and expect, to have accept you and that is your spouse.

All things considered at this point, I think that if I had known back then in 1993 when we got engaged that her attitude toward me (Christine) was going to be what it is...I probably never would have asked her to marry me. I probably wouldn't have bothered putting us both through this emotional pressure cooker. I'm not sure anymore that collaboration is even possible until she stops denying to herself that I am really a woman inside and not a man. I am comfortable with who and what I am. What I am NOT comfortable at this stage of my life is...after 41 years of "play acting"...to continue to allow both society and HER to define just who and what I am on THEIR terms. Dammit...this is MY LIFE that we are talking about here...NOT THEIRS!

I'm not soliciting responses here necessarily...I just wanted all of you to know how I feel about this right now.

Thanks for letting me vent and rant here.

Love to you all,
Christine:(

Christine:
It may have been the shock of seeing the new brows that caused her reaction to be as strong as it was. Give "Sue" the day to think it over and I have a feeling she'll be a little less upset when you see her again.
There may be no need to compromise at all. Let her look at you again with your glasses on, and maybe she'll realize that your brows actually aren't noticeable at all. I also have thin brows and no one has ever noticed them because of my glasses, at least until I pointed them out to them.
Good luck Sweetie!

Hi Christine. Hope you don't mind my tuppenyworth.

You've got a problem. (Yes, I know you know.) But the problem isn't the eyebrows. The problem is that if you look like "a fag" in public (her words, remember), it means that she is scared that you will embarrass the hell out of her in front of all her friends and relatives by looking like "a fag". The secret will be out about HER Husband!....Which reflects on her. People may start talking about you behind your back and hers. You will drag her out of YOUR secret closet against HER will, and humiliate her. That's what she is scared of. When you step out of your closest, brave as that is, you are going to drag her out too whether she wants it or not.

That's your problem.

The fact that she supposedly accepted who you really are when you married, appears to be not as binding as you first thought. Did she accept that you might want to present as a woman in public? Did she accept that everyone she knows will know she has a TS husband? Did she accept that people might laugh at her because of standing by you?

Just how far do you want to push it before something gives?

I'm not unsympathetic, but I do feel for your wife's dilema. You've got a lot of talking to do from the listening end!

Hi Christine,

I sincerely hope that you and Sue can work this out together. As you know I just came out to my wife last night; I have no idea what the future will hold for us. She is accepting for now, but I have no idea where the journey I am on will take me or if she will still be with me at the end of my journey.
I think it is going to take a lot more conversation, especially with other GGs in relationships with husbands that are transgender.
I want nothing but the best for you. You have helped me just by being you, the loving, caring lady that you are.

Love and BIG HUG,
Priscilla

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Originally Posted by Priscilla1018

Hi Christine,

I sincerely hope that you and Sue can work this out together. As you know I just came out to my wife last night; I have no idea what the future will hold for us. She is accepting for now, but I have no idea where the journey I am on will take me or if she will still be with me at the end of my journey.
I think it is going to take a lot more conversation, especially with other GGs in relationships with husbands that are transgender.
I want nothing but the best for you. You have helped me just by being you, the loving, caring lady that you are.

Love and BIG HUG,
Priscilla

---

Thank you Priscilla for the kind words. I don't quite know where things are headed with me and "Sue" either. She really disappointed me today...I felt our relationship took several steps back from where it was just a week or two ago. I think what has happened is that she thought the man she married was on the inside as well as the outside...that the qualities she liked had nothing to do with Christine. Now she has had to come to grips with the realization that it was actually Christine that she fell in love with and I think she is having a hard time coming to terms with that. There may be nothing I can do about that either. Perhaps a GG wife, or wives, could help make her understand it better but I seem to be too close to the situation now.

This morning's set-to made me realize that she still has issues with Christine that she doesn't want to have to deal with. Also, that she wants to control me (Christine) and confine me to the house. It has also made me realize that unless both partner's are together with this, that the CD spouse and the non-CD spouse have conflicting worlds. The non-CD spouse has to be able to be a part of the CDs world on some level or it just doesn't work. You live two completely separate lives under the marital umbrella.

Like I said...we have much dialoging yet to do to see if we can ever get on the same page and wave length with this.

Thanks again for the support and kindness you've shown me Priscilla...and best of luck to you and your wife. I hope that things work out for you both as well.;)

Love,
Chrissie:)

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Originally Posted by Julie York

Hi Christine. Hope you don't mind my tuppenyworth.

You've got a problem. (Yes, I know you know.) But the problem isn't the eyebrows. The problem is that if you look like "a fag" in public (her words, remember), it means that she is scared that you will embarrass the hell out of her in front of all her friends and relatives by looking like "a fag". The secret will be out about HER Husband!....Which reflects on her. People may start talking about you behind your back and hers. You will drag her out of YOUR secret closet against HER will, and humiliate her. That's what she is scared of. When you step out of your closest, brave as that is, you are going to drag her out too whether she wants it or not.

That's your problem.

The fact that she supposedly accepted who you really are when you married, appears to be not as binding as you first thought. Did she accept that you might want to present as a woman in public? Did she accept that everyone she knows will know she has a TS husband? Did she accept that people might laugh at her because of standing by you?

Just how far do you want to push it before something gives?

I'm not unsympathetic, but I do feel for your wife's dilema. You've got a lot of talking to do from the listening end!

---

So what you are saying to me, if I am understanding this correctly, is that my wife calls all the shots on this and that I will continue to project to the general public the image MY WIFE has DEFINED for me so that she will not be embarrassed or humiliated by my "feminine eyebrows." In other words, for her, "Roy" is who I married even if he is an act and it is better for me for people to see my husband as "Roy" totally with no traces of Christine present so that I don't have to deal with the fact that the man I married is actually, in fact, a woman inside. So continue to live the lie, continue to be "Roy" to her and the general public and everything will be just fine. Well...I HAVE done it for 41 years now...so it's not like I don't know HOW to do it is it?

I appreciate that you can see this so clearly from my wife's perspective Julie...I just wish you could see it more clearly from mine. Your answer is the kind of answer I would have expected from another GG wife who can't deal with a CD husband rather than from someone who has also walked in my shoes. She is basically validating everything here about society that we as a community have railed against, and now you are sympathetic to their right to be ignorant and intolerant.

You have a right to your opinion, and I respect that Julie...I'm just a little disappointed that one of my fellow sisters would come out against a sister who is fighting just to be herself in this world. You don't have to agree with me here, but some understanding from my perspective would have been appreciated.


Hugs,
Christine

Wow! Wow! and more Wows! That was quite a bit of a story there. I undersand how you feel, and I wish you all the luck in the future. I read your tirade, and I agree with almost all of what you said. I'm not sure you were being totally fair. There are some elements that make it appear that your relationship with "Sue" is all about you. On the other hand, you have been upfront. I would say, if you dont mind, perhaps, and I do mean perhaps, it might help if you were willing to not put your wife through any more than you are willing to put yourself through, or anybody else for that matter. That is, if you aren't willing to step out there in the real world as ChristineRenee, then perhaps it isn't fair to expect your wife to be the total and only recipient of your belief that you are a woman on the inside. Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by Sweet Susan

Wow! Wow! and more Wows! That was quite a bit of a story there. I undersand how you feel, and I wish you all the luck in the future. I read your tirade, and I agree with almost all of what you said. I'm not sure you were being totally fair. There are some elements that make it appear that your relationship with "Sue" is all about you. On the other hand, you have been upfront. I would say, if you dont mind, perhaps, and I do mean perhaps, it might help if you were willing to not put your wife through any more than you are willing to put yourself through, or anybody else for that matter. That is, if you aren't willing to step out there in the real world as ChristineRenee, then perhaps it isn't fair to expect your wife to be the total and only recipient of your belief that you are a woman on the inside. Just a thought.

---

If she can't accept a man who's eyebrows are just thinned out and shaped, how do you think she'll react to me walking around this town as Christine Renee? What happens in Florida when we join Tri-Ess? How is she gonna feel standing next to me dressed as Christine in a room with other CD's that are dressed and their wives? She can't handle a small thing like this, but she is going to be able to handle that just because we don't live in THIS town anymore? Why does she have the right to DEFINE who I am as a person? Answer that for me, and what happens if and when she decides then that she can't accept Christine at all any longer...then what? Do I have any say in my own marriage with respect to who I am anymore?


Christine

It does sound like you are facing a wall here hun. It may not be one you can climb over, but only time will tell. Prepare for it either way. I wish I could give you a better answer. Just be patient with her no matter what happens. You love her and that should always come first, even if that means Christine has to do some more hiding. I'm sorry things aren't going better for you. You still have us though never forget that.



Love
Tristen

I know what you're going throught Christine,
My wife spotted 5 missing stray eyebrow hairs straight away!! But for me just now it is my shaved legs, she just can't deal with that.
Take care
Fiona
xx

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Originally Posted by ChristineRenee

So what you are saying to me, if I am understanding this correctly, is that my wife calls all the shots on this and that I will continue to project to the general public the image MY WIFE has DEFINED for me so that she will not be embarrassed or humiliated by my "feminine eyebrows." In other words, for her, "Roy" is who I married even if he is an act and it is better for me for people to see my husband as "Roy" totally with no traces of Christine present so that I don't have to deal with the fact that the man I married is actually, in fact, a woman inside. So continue to live the lie, continue to be "Roy" to her and the general public and everything will be just fine.

---

Yes, if you want a wife. That's what I'm reading anyway.

Hey I don't want to make you annoyed Christine. You're a great person and I regard you as a friend. And I'm sorry if what I said could have been said less harshly. I was pointing out the perspective your wife has, in order to just say....Back up a notch and see what the whole situation is because the trauma you are going through is someone else's trauma too.

If you want my sympathy and understanding then you have it. I really wouldn't want to be in your situation. But you don't appear to realise just how critical this is. It isn't just about YOU.

Quote:

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I appreciate that you can see this so clearly from my wife's perspective Julie...I just wish you could see it more clearly from mine. Your answer is the kind of answer I would have expected from another GG wife who can't deal with a CD husband

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This is where I said....you have a lot of talking to do. Maybe she CAN'T handle it?

Quote:

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You have a right to your opinion, and I respect that Julie...I'm just a little disappointed that one of my fellow sisters would come out against a sister who is fighting just to be herself in this world. You don't have to agree with me here, but some understanding from my perspective would have been appreciated.


Hugs,
Christine

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I understand your perspective. Maybe I am not TS but I really do.

I am simply worried that you don't appreciate that if you persue what YOU want, your wife doesn't appear to want to come along for the ride. She's giving you all the signals and it's frustrating the hell out of you because you can see them and hate them. Everyone else can see the car crash coming but daren't say so, because we all have to be so supportive on the forum etc etc. And yes, (it's a great compliment actually) maybe I am taking the GG point of view.

I really am sorry if this upsets you and I feel for your frustration. You really do have my best wishes in all this. I'll leave you in peace now to the sympathisers who will say all the nice things about how wonderful it is to live by your beliefs.

Sorry again if I annoyed you.

Quote:

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"Sue" - "Please don't do this again....you look like a FAG!"

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Fag?? wtf is that supposed to mean... all fags have eyebrows like yours??? gimme a break!!!

Sounds to me like she isn't coping with you at all. The slightest thing you have done.... and she goes off on one like that??

Ok... tell me something.. when she married you.. did she marry a crossdresser or a transgendered person??
Does she know the difference??
Do you sit down and discuss things or have screaming matches about things??
Does she have someone other than you to talk to about these things??

So many questions to ask you... but I'll ask you bit by bit...

Tamara x

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Originally Posted by Julie York

Yes, if you want a wife. That's what I'm reading anyway.

Hey I don't want to make you annoyed Christine. You're a great person and I regard you as a friend. And I'm sorry if what I said could have been said less harshly. I was pointing out the perspective your wife has, in order to just say....Back up a notch and see what the whole situation is because the trauma you are going through is someone else's trauma too.

If you want my sympathy and understanding then you have it. I really wouldn't want to be in your situation. But you don't appear to realise just how critical this is. It isn't just about YOU.



This is where I said....you have a lot of talking to do. Maybe she CAN'T handle it?



I understand your perspective. Maybe I am not TS but I really do.

I am simply worried that you don't appreciate that if you persue what YOU want, your wife doesn't appear to want to come along for the ride. She's giving you all the signals and it's frustrating the hell out of you because you can see them and hate them. Everyone else can see the car crash coming but daren't say so, because we all have to be so supportive on the forum etc etc. And yes, (it's a great compliment actually) maybe I am taking the GG point of view.

I really am sorry if this upsets you and I feel for your frustration. You really do have my best wishes in all this. I'll leave you in peace now to the sympathisers who will say all the nice things about how wonderful it is to live by your beliefs.

Sorry again if I annoyed you.

---

First of all, I'm am CD/TG NOT a TS. Let's get that understood right up front, ok?

I don't ever recall asking for the "Sunshine Club" to blow smoke up my ass either. I have been dealing with this with her for almost 12 years now. I have been upfront about this every step of the way. Was I transgendered when we were first together? If I was I wasn't aware of it. When I became aware of it...she was told. I've never kept anything related to my CD/TG condition hidden from her.

I guess I would agree with one point you make and that is that she can't deal with it. That is painfully obvious to me now. So I guess there is no further point in pushing any envelopes here that are going to apparently remain permanently sealed. That is HER choice. We have a wedge now driven between us. Had I known that we would get this far into this marriage with her still not coming to terms with who and what I am, I would never have asked her to marry me. The way I feel right now is that I just wished she would have walked away from it and spared us both this grief. We are both two good people who don't deserve to have to be put through this because we can't come to an understanding of how we can best deal with this
together. The one person I had counted on the most to understand and be by my side with this has thrown it back into my face after almost 12 years as a couple. I hope you can appreciate at least the hurt and disappointment that I feel right now regardless of how you perceive that this should be resolved.

It may all come down in the final analysis, to how willing my wife will be to accept who I am because I cannot change that...but SHE can change her attitude as to how SHE will feel about that. There is not an awful lot of middle ground here. It is essentially about a difference in core beliefs and being true to who you are. Either she eventually, whether she likes it or not, accepts that fact, or she uncategorically rejects it and then we will be beginning the process of going our own way in life.

I don't know any other way out of this at this point. I am so very tired of it all right now.


Love,
Christine

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Originally Posted by Tamara-GG

Fag?? wtf is that supposed to mean... all fags have eyebrows like yours??? gimme a break!!!

Sounds to me like she isn't coping with you at all. The slightest thing you have done.... and she goes off on one like that??

Ok... tell me something.. when she married you.. did she marry a crossdresser or a transgendered person??
Does she know the difference??
Do you sit down and discuss things or have screaming matches about things??
Does she have someone other than you to talk to about these things??

So many questions to ask you... but I'll ask you bit by bit...

Tamara x

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Hi Tamara,

I will try to answer your questions for you. I was a CD when she married me but was not aware that I was transgendered. I may HAVE been...but I was not aware of it if I was. I would hope that by this time she would know the difference but right now I'm not sure where her head is at with all of this. We don't have screaming matches, but we do have vast differences in our way of thinking. Saying that I looked like a FAG this morning was probably the most hurtful thing that she has ever said to me since we have been together. All because I got my eyebrows thinned and shaped more femme. This is supposed to be the sign of the apocalypse I guess. Hide the kids all of you concerned parents out there....the guy with the "feminine eyebrows" is coming down the street...to a town NEAR you! Does she have someone else to talk with about this? NO! And that to me has been a long standing problem. I was so hoping that after we make the move to Florida and we join Tri-Ess, that she would have other wives of CD's to talk with and perhaps they can have some effect on her thinking processes. I just don't believe I can reach her anymore...I'm too close to the situation. What this is about in her perspective is being embarrassed by who I really am and how it is going to look to others if they find out. Plus, being the control freak that she is, she wants to almost put it into "my way or the highway" terms here. I don't deal well with threats and ultimatums at all....particularly when it comes down to being told to alter or change something that cannot be altered or changed. I look at who I am very positively...that I am "special"...perhaps even "gifted". My wife sees this as an abnormality, much like the rest of society does. She feels that she is a "normal" human being and I am an abnormal one. Early in our marriage, she even told me that I have a form of mental illness. I don't know whether or not she still feels that strongly about it now, but it does give you some kind of idea of how she thought about the people of our community now doesn't it?

I just don't know where we are going to go from here Tamara. At this point I am just kinda laying low and trying to get a handle on how I feel emotionally and how I am going to handle things once we get settled down in Florida.

I just went from one of my best days in a long time yesterday...to emotionally falling off the mountain today. Time now to assess the damage and mend what needs to be mended. I'm afraid that it's going to be a long climb back.

Thanks for understanding Tamara...I hope I have helped to answer your questions here.

Love,
Chrissie

I would suggest that in this case the battle is less than the war. If you pluck them as you want but while she is not there to watch may be that would relieve the tension. After all as adults we should know that we can't impose our will on another successfully for very long. She understands that and may be she a bit insecure. I must say though that would be a conversation my wife and I would have.
Good luck
Danielle

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Originally Posted by ChristineRenee

...I just don't know where we are going to go from here Tamara. At this point I am just kinda laying low and trying to get a handle on how I feel emotionally and how I am going to handle things once we get settled down in Florida.

I just went from one of my best days in a long time yesterday...to emotionally falling off the mountain today. Time now to assess the damage and mend what needs to be mended. I'm afraid that it's going to be a long climb back.

Thanks for understanding Tamara...I hope I have helped to answer your questions here.

Love,
Chrissie

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Alright Christine, this is better thinking. The Christine I know and love is not going to give up.

Let's face it. We don't live in a perfect world. Part of the imperfection is that those who we love and trust and rely on sometimes let us down. Truth is we do the same thing to them. Doesn't make it any easier, does it? But our attitude will have a huge impact on the outcome.

Okay, now is not the time to stop talking. Now more than ever the communication lines need to be open and burnin' up! Assess the situation and proceed with what you know to be the right thing.

Christine, at the risk of sounding a little like Julie York, I would ask you to take into consideration some of the things your wife may be going through right now. You are looking forward to your relocation to Florida and, if I read between the lines, the fulfillment of an almost life long dream concerning your being TG. She, at a mnimun will be leaving a career in which she appears to be comfortable to begin a lifestyle that will be foreign to her (and I'm not just talking about life with Christine... the way of life in Florida will be different than it is in Minn.). She will also be giving up a home and friends she has become acccustomed to over the years. PLEASE do not misunderstand and think I am taking her side. I'm just asking you to see some of the things that may be going on in her head right now. It just might help you find a way to begin a dialogue with hre. She's probably quite frightened. And when we are frightened we often will do and say things that we shouldn't. Heck, maybe you should just ask her what it is she's afraid of! Is it the move? Christine? Roy? Herself? But I will guarantee you one thing... it's not the eyebrows.

But no matter what, honey, we love you and want nothing more than to see you and "Sue" happy.

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I was a CD when she married me but was not aware that I was transgendered. I may HAVE been...but I was not aware of it if I was.

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Well seeing as this is what you are now, I think this is scaring her and she must feel she is losing the MAN she married.

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I would hope that by this time she would know the difference but right now I'm not sure where her head is at with all of this.

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How would she know, have you given her leaflets, books, info on the internet, gone through any info with her?? If your not sure where her head is right now, how do you know how she is really feeling??

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Saying that I looked like a FAG this morning was probably the most hurtful thing that she has ever said to me since we have been together.

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I have to agree, but you have to ask her 'why' she called you that, what's the 'real' reason she said that to you.

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All because I got my eyebrows thinned and shaped more femme.

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Did you actually ask her if she minds you getting them done more femme? Did you ask her opinion or just went ahead and got them done?

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This is supposed to be the sign of the apocalypse I guess. Hide the kids all of you concerned parents out there....the guy with the "feminine eyebrows" is coming down the street...to a town NEAR you!

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Stop that!!!

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Does she have someone else to talk with about this? NO! And that to me has been a long standing problem.

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Why doesn't she have anyone to talk to? Have you told her about forums online? Have you tried getting her to go to a CD/TG meeting in your area?

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I was so hoping that after we make the move to Florida and we join Tri-Ess, that she would have other wives of CD's to talk with and perhaps they can have some effect on her thinking processes.

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Well that's in the future.... something to discuss at a later date.

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I just don't believe I can reach her anymore...I'm too close to the situation. What this is about in her perspective is being embarrassed by who I really am and how it is going to look to others if they find out.

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How do you expect her to feel?? over the moon?? she married a man.. now shes scared to death shes losing her man. I don't think embarrasment has anything to do with this in my opinion. If you can't reach her no more... then you need to think about councilling.

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Plus, being the control freak that she is, she wants to almost put it into "my way or the highway" terms here. I don't deal well with threats and ultimatums at all....particularly when it comes down to being told to alter or change something that cannot be altered or changed. I look at who I am very positively...that I am "special"...perhaps even "gifted". My wife sees this as an abnormality, much like the rest of society does. She feels that she is a "normal" human being and I am an abnormal one.

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Compromise is the word... you have to talk about things.. she can't have it her way or no way, marriage is a 2 way thing, it's about give and take. She married you for better or for worse... not to tell you what you can and can't do.

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Early in our marriage, she even told me that I have a form of mental illness. I don't know whether or not she still feels that strongly about it now, but it does give you some kind of idea of how she thought about the people of our community now doesn't it?

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It's NOT an illness... is she qualified to tell you that?? If you don't know how she feels, then ask her.

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I just don't know where we are going to go from here Tamara. At this point I am just kinda laying low and trying to get a handle on how I feel emotionally and how I am going to handle things once we get settled down in Florida.

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One day at a time... don't leap, don't ask too many questions.. talk to her.

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I just went from one of my best days in a long time yesterday...to emotionally falling off the mountain today. Time now to assess the damage and mend what needs to be mended. I'm afraid that it's going to be a long climb back.

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Don't let one day ruin things, it's like the saying goes... 1 step forward, 2 steps back. Only you can mend this, only you know what is right for you and your marriage. You just have to comunicate with each other and if you can't do that, then you both need to write things down... things you like, things you don't like, things that need to improve etc... works wonders for me when things are going bad. Keep your chin up hun... and don't sit there dwelling on it... start sorting it out.

Tamara x

Tamara,

Ok...I read it. I will talk about it with you in a private chat.

Love,
Chrissie

Chrissie, as I've read this thread, one thought kept coming to mind; I could have written much of it myself. So much of what you said echoes the same things I have thought and said to myself and my wife in the last few weeks. In my case, I've been waiting through 28 years of marriage (and 2 years dating before that) for the very same acceptance that you so eloquently described. I'm not blowing smoke either. I've felt like you do for a long time. Just how damn long would it take for her to "get used to it"? Like you too, I made sure she knew that I was a crossdresser. She said she undertood too. Well, you know, I don't think she did. I think she wanted to badly marry me and she wasn't gonna let that stop her. I'm sorry that sounds so damned cynical and conceited but a lot of background info would be needed to see it my way I guess. She didn't understand what crossdressing meant to me then and she sure couldn't foresee what it would come to mean later. Hell, I couldn't foresee that myself. It has become more important to me and a greater part of me than ever before and she has become a lot more tolerant and participatory. It's just that she remains so distant from that part of me for so much of the time. It's as if, if she ignores it, it'll go away. But it can't go away as it becomes more and more of what I really am. I may indeed be TS or TG and that question both excites me and scares me too. You surely understand that I know.
I've asked myself so many times, am being selfish here? Am I asking for too much? Hell, I don't even venture out from home dressed yet. Probably couldn't pass if I did. But is it too much to want her more involved with Olivia and to see me as Olivia and not my male persona? I just don't think it's asking too much. Like you also, if I had known that 30 years down the road so much progress would still be needed, then yes, I would have reconsidered marriage to her. We could have spared each other much pain as you said. The truth is that I love her and I want to stay together. The truth is also that I love Olivia and I want her to love her too. And if she never will, well, does that dream die or move on? Chrissie you have my warmest wishes for success here. Girl, I do know your pain and I so hope that brighter days are ahead for you, and yeah, for me too. always, Olivia

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Originally Posted by ChristineRenee

:mad: I understand your point Tracie and the "collaborate don't compromise" comment too. I feel compelled to say some things now which may not go over too well with some of you in the forum here so be advised in advance.

I have been a CD, now TG as well, for 41 years since the age of 12. I have known my wife for 12 years. I was upfront about my being a CD from the beginning...I told her about it when we were still dating. She agreed to marry me knowing this. Even when I realized that I was TG and wanted to go on HRT I made sure she knew about it even though I know she wasn't happy about it, understandibly enough. I guess what I am leading up to is this: how long do I have to keep up this "facade" of projecting an image both to my wife and the general public that I am a REAL MAN, by THEIR definition of the same? I have been playing an actor playing a role for almost all of my life. Is this to go on indefinitely just because my wife can't come to terms with the fact that the man she thought she married is really a woman inside? Have I been totally unreasonable here? I have made every effort since 1993 when we first got together to keep who I really am under wraps so as not to cause her problems either with her career, or her family and friends. But what about me? When am I ever gonna be allowed to be who I really am....ME....CHRISTINE? Why is my wife allowed to define the parameters of just who I will be in the outside world....who gave her that kind of dictatorial authority? I know I didn't. I didn't marry her because I wanted someone to boss me around and make decisions for me 24/7. I lived very capably on my own from the time I was 20 until I married her at 43. I didn't HAVE to get married either. I married her because I fell in love, didn't want to spend the rest of my life alone, and thought I was marrying a very compassionate and good hearted woman who understood what I was all about and was accepting of it. So tell me...what have I done wrong here? Who is the one who is really being hurt and their total existence as a human being being affected here?

It's one thing to be not be accepted for who you are by society...but it's totally another thing to not be accepted by the person in your life that you need, and expect, to have accept you and that is your spouse.

All things considered at this point, I think that if I had known back then in 1993 when we got engaged that her attitude toward me (Christine) was going to be what it is...I probably never would have asked her to marry me. I probably wouldn't have bothered putting us both through this emotional pressure cooker. I'm not sure anymore that collaboration is even possible until she stops denying to herself that I am really a woman inside and not a man. I am comfortable with who and what I am. What I am NOT comfortable at this stage of my life is...after 41 years of "play acting"...to continue to allow both society and HER to define just who and what I am on THEIR terms. Dammit...this is MY LIFE that we are talking about here...NOT THEIRS!

I'm not soliciting responses here necessarily...I just wanted all of you to know how I feel about this right now.

Thanks for letting me vent and rant here.

Love to you all,
Christine:(

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My Chrissie Bear,

You know my feelings about this and I will share them with all tomorrow. It's already late and I am already upset about this...
But you know I can't keep my mouth shut...
She married you with full knowledge of Christine, 11 years ago. I know this to be a fact...

Though some here may not understand fully, they are totally free to express their feelings, I too have the same right. I just wish I have the energy to do it now, but I promise, I will do it, like first thing in the morning, after I dropped the kids at school.


Chrissie Bear...
She, nor anyone else, has right to hurt, insult, demoralize , humitiate, or repress you in any way..
Sue went into this with both eyes open, it is not your fault, that after 12 years, she decided to close them.

Know you are never alone...
Lots of Love.
Your Momma Bear
;)
Pattie

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Originally Posted by Tamara-GG

Sorry.... it's a long one

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if that was the case maybe she wouldn't be having such a problemo hmm???

Thank you Olivia...looks like we virtually told each other's life stories here. I think my wife wanted to get married again more than anything and is probably why she didn't appear to have a problem with me being a CD. I wasn't Mr. Right...I was Mr. Right Now!

I don't know where this is all headed. I do know there will be more serious discussion...when I am ready to talk, that is. I am not angry as much as I am hurt, and disappointed in my wife's overall attitude about this. I know exactly where you are coming from in your post and I think you understand my situation as well. No need to elaborate or go into a lot of detail here.


I'm not seeking sympathy here...maybe a little understanding and support. I feel like I have done everything up and above board. I can't keep my wife from being jealous of Christine. I can't give my wife self-esteem...only she can do that for herself. And I damn sure can't be something inside for her purposes that I'm not. She chooses to not see the woman inside me but hold on to the idea that I'm a man because that's what she wants to believe. It doesn't make it a reality though just because she wants it to be.

I gotta stop or I will just continue to ramble on. Thank you Olivia for your understanding and support, and to all the ladies who have stood by me today and shown me the love and compassionate that you possess. Special thanks to my "moms" Tamara and Pattie for their concern, love, and support when I really needed it today.

Somehow, this will work out down the line. More dialog is needed obviously, and we will talk "Sue" and I very soon about all of this...in great detail.

Thanks again everyone for being here for me.

Love to all,
Chrissie:)

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Originally Posted by Akyra

if that was the case maybe she wouldn't be having such a problemo hmm???

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Do you have all the information you could, before formulating this OPINION? Have you even went back and read Chrissie's posts?

Do so please, before you think to pass judgement..

Thank you for being open-minded. Last thing we need to do, is to pass judgement on one another...

Holly!
Are you there???? We need your wisdom now..
:)

Lots of Love to all my favorite Ladies..
;)
Pattie

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Originally Posted by Akyra

if that was the case maybe she wouldn't be having such a problemo hmm???

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Do not form an opinion before educating yourself...


That has been devastating for all of us, for so long...

It's called ignorance...

[size=3][/size]

Ok a little rambling...but read on.

I have been dressing for over 20 years...and married for 10. I told my wife before we got married...she has tried to accept it but it has been hard for her.

We have had many similar conversations. I have shaped my eyebrows considerably....really thin, high arch, very femme. She didn't like me shaving my legs, she didn't like my shaving my underarms, etc. But when it came to my eyebrows... this put her over the edge. When we talked about it... i found her perspective really interesting. Yes, I want to be me but in everything in life we have to understand other people's perspective even if we don't like it as much as we want others to understand us.

She was most scared...that she would have to defend me. That, to Julie's point, that I have now put her in a compromised position. Where other shaved attributes are 'disguised,' this is now very open and allowing for questions in which she will not easily be able to answer. I can still remember the conversation: everyone will ask her why I do it, she can't and might not know what to say..."oh yeah, my husband is a TG....then its, really. What does he do?. Do you like it? Is he bi or gay? How does it impact your relationship, etc.? it just keeps on going. And its not that the questions can't be answered intellectually but that it hurts her to have to answer them. She is immediately put on the defensive.... almost like she has to absorb a problem in which she is not ready to discuss or defend with family, friends, strangers, etc. You have to admit, that is alot to ask.

She is still my wife to this day, i still shape my eyebrows (arch and thinner but not super thin as before). She still hates it. I can't blame her...who said she had to like everything about me or anything in this world....but one thing which I know..she loves me, she tolerates my dressing, and she is still trying to understand though it is hard to feel acceptance which is different from understanding. I believe as much as I want to be myself and want others to accept me fully, we always have to do things in moderation to gain acceptance and to gradually change people's perspectives....nothing in extreme fashion has ever truly helped society as far as I know....thought there are many examples of continual plugging which has gradually changed the way we live, look at the environment, each other, religion, cultures, etc......Ok, so I am rambling..... this was certainly a conversation close to home just a few weeks ago as I plucked perhaps one toooooo many brows to give a distinctive arch...somewhat addictive i might add in my journey to be femme

This is really interesting, because as I've read virtually every word of every post, I'm finding that many of share a commonality. Our wives can accept much of what we do, but when we overdo the eyebrows, they notice, and they don't like it. Now that I remember back, my wife has scolded me twice in the past several months, and both times it was for plucking my eyebrows. She didn't like it. It loved it. She didn't call me a faggot, as she isn't one for name calling, but she did say, and I quote, "I didn't marry a woman." I took this rather harsh at first, but I came back pretty quickly with, "No, but you did knowingly marry a wannabe."

Stefanie,

Thanks for your input..it is truly appreciated. I still feel that we are never going to be accepted by the mainstream of society if we are going to let them dictate to us how we are supposed to be. This is what this universal struggle is all about. Can you understand that when you let someone define who you are, what you are, how you are supposed to dress, how you maintain your body, etc. you are giving them a power over you that NOBODY should have. You should be able to be who you are...if people don't want to accept you for who you are then that is their right. But they have NO right to say you can't shave your body, wear your brows in a feminine manner, etc. Hell, I remember the shock waves that went through the male jungle when guys started wearing an earring! OMG...it was unreal. Now which is it..if it is in their right ear it means their gay...or is it their left one?...I can never remember which! Sheesh!

We seemed to survive that world crisis. Now a lotta guys wear two or more earrings. Nobody thinks anything of it.

This incident today was blown all out of proportion because my wife is so damn scared that I might "embarrass" her. She is, and has been, almost paranoid about what others think...has been all her life. I have been considerate of her during our whole relationship just to make sure that her career and the relationships she has with her family and friends aren't compromised. So who really has been making the sacrifices here anyway?

I don't really know how much more I can say on this that I haven't already said. I guess you either understand or you don't. I have always had a fondness for the following quote though I don't know who first said it but it probably describes best how I feel right now:

"For those who understand, no explanation is necessary, for those who do not understand, no explanation will suffice."

Thus endeth the sermon.

Thanks again Stefanie for your input.

Love,
Chrissie

Hmmmm, well always the one with the unpopular opinion; I sympathize with both of you. Do I think her comment was mean and hateful; it was! Do I think what you did was rather drastic and probably caused your wife to experience shock; I do. This isn't about wrongs or rights; it's about feelings and how you both experience the other. So, perhaps she married you for the wrong reason. Sounds like you had a sense of that from the beginning. Maybe you married for the wrong reason, maybe not; I don't know. I suppose how well you both weather this depends not only on your committment to each other but how healthy the communication has been between you both.

*sigh*
It's not a perfect world is it?

hugs
kew

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Originally Posted by KewTnCurvy

Hmmmm, well always the one with the unpopular opinion; I sympathize with both of you. Do I think her comment was mean and hateful; it was! Do I think what you did was rather drastic and probably caused your wife to experience shock; I do. This isn't about wrongs or rights; it's about feelings and how you both experience the other. So, perhaps she married you for the wrong reason. Sounds like you had a sense of that from the beginning. Maybe you married for the wrong reason, maybe not; I don't know. I suppose how well you both weather this depends not only on your committment to each other but how healthy the communication has been between you both.

*sigh*
It's not a perfect world is it?

hugs
kew

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Yes Kew...it was a marriage of second chances in life. Two pretty emotionally beat up people who saw an opportunity to grab the brass ring one last time. Maybe we both did marry for the wrong reasons. I know I many times have contemplated whether or not people like us SHOULD even marry at all...but then, if we are going to put that kind of a restriction on our selves and our lives, then why exist at all?

What this is, is about acceptance. We want acceptance by society and yet many of us can't even get it from the person we love the most and believe should love us and accept us more than anyone...our wives and SO's.

No it is certainly "not" a perfect world!

Love,
Chrissie

Well to me the issue is not so much that she approves or likes what you do but rather can she allow you to be who you are and give you the respect and dignity you deserve? I don't know. Maybe she doesn't know right now. Again the power to see each other through this will come from communication. I think, without being insulting to her, you need to tell her how hurtful what she said to you was. You need to use "I" messages. Keep in mind I'm a therapist and have done some couples counseling and a whole lotta family therapy. Use a format such as: I feel ________________ when you _________________ because ______________________. An example would be: I feel hurt and sad when you referred to my brows looking 'fag like' because I feel disrespected and rejected by you. See how that is not blaming or argumentative? By communicating in this manner you put the onus right where it needs to be and you do it without hurting her feelings in return. Another suggestion I might make is keep you discussions timed--1 to 2 hours max--as fatique itself will disintegrate the conversation. Also, you need to take responsibility for the fact you did something that I think you knew would be radical enough to shake her tree big time. Acknowledge this! And g'luck me dear:)

hugs
kew

Hi Christine

Really sorry to hear about this setback. You are understandably angry but you know as well as I that these things need to be talked about between the two of you when emotions have calmed down. Your wife really needs to talk to others as she clearly still has issues to be settled.

I can fully empathsize with you. My girlfriend is also highly concerned about her reputation in her community. The thought of her being shamed by the revelation that her lover is "gay" is frightening to her, it would mean in the eyes of others that our relationship was a sham and she would be mocked and laughed at publically. This terrifies her, she would probably pack her bags and leave rather than stay and face the music. She always tells me that she is concerned about my humiliation but in fact it is mostly about her.

Although I would prefer her to be thick-skinned, I dont expect any miracles. Thickening her skin to ignore the viewpoints of others and to stay focussed on the happiness of our relationship is a process that will take many years to accomplish - it has started though slowly.

Knowing the way she feels, I happily do not overdo thinning my eyebrows, leaving them neat and tidy but not overtly feminine. My breasts were mostly grown when we met so all I can do is wear loose fitting tops to minimize their appearance but I still get disapproving looks from her when they become too obvious. Shaving my body is easily hidden and not a problem at all and she really likes the smooth feel.

In many ways, the lives we are trying to lead in being androgenous is more difficult to live with, as we cannot be labeled. It would actually be easier to fully transition and live full time as a woman than to be at this half-way house. At least then your wife and others can accept your appearance. However so long as you are still presenting yourself as a man, any obvious feminizing changes, particularly to the face, is difficult to explain and very embarrassing for your wife.

I don't see why your wife can reasonably disapprove of any changes to your body which are hidden ie shaving your body etc - but your face is a different matter. Not only is it very obvious but it is also her "image" of you. What I mean is that minor changes to your face changes the "image" of you in her head. For example, my girlfriend finds me very sexy in women's clothes and we often make love with me in lingerie. However she is not interested in even kissing me if I am wearing a wig or make-up - because it is no longer the me she knows. There is a difference between the face and the rest of the body, I guess the face represents the person, the soul.

By shaping your eyebrows, you have changed the look of your face and she no longer recognizes "you". Instead you have become a different person - as she says you now look like a fag.

My advice is to do your own eyebrows in future and to keep them natural looking. I have thinned mine a lot but are not so obvious. A little brow liner and they are quickly transformed into female brows.

I agree with Holly. I think that there is more of a problem in the way she feels than the eybows. You are looking forward to a new life in Florida.Moving can be quite traumatic even if most of you wants to go. (ask Kew *winks*)

She will want to make new friends. She may not want to be a CD handbag. It's bit like being a golfing widow... cept the T-girls have much better dress sense! My ex husban thought I'd be happy mixing with the Cricket club wives while we got the BBQ ready after the cricket game WRONG!!!

She is entitled to a midlife/moving crisis TV identity crisis too.

If all the CD's love ther wives and wish to stay married you must realise that there is TWO girls in the relationship and your have to work through it together with give and take. so if the eyebrows are REALLY important to you tell her, but ask HOW you can help her deal with it. How would she like you to go about it?

You asked her for a kiss to spite her. Twice to drive it home. Not because you were in need of a kiss????? so When I am angry I am like a male.I am the bear that goes into my cave and every one know in my house not to "poke the bear"!!! After hibernating for a while and working it through I have calmed down or worked through a solution or a way to talk about the problem calmly. This might take days or a week.

If you are becoming more feminine she may be taking on more masculine traits ( with out realising)

Fraid I can't tell you what to do as we don't know you both but ......My advice is don't poke the bear!

I'll just add that I think Sista Celeste is onto something here. It's that ying/yang push/pull thingy I've talked about. You know there are male and female energies and if you're expressing more female energy it may conversely influence your wife to express more masculine energy. Just a thought. Anyhoooo, what else were we all talking about??

hugs
kew

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Originally Posted by KewTnCurvy

I'll just add that I think Sista Celeste is onto something here. It's that ying/yang push/pull thingy I've talked about. You know there are male and female energies and if you're expressing more female energy it may conversely influence your wife to express more masculine energy. Just a thought. Anyhoooo, what else were we all talking about??

hugs
kew

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Can you smell the smoke???

LOL! J/K....



Anyway...

I was wondering, because for the CD's that I have talked to in depth about this, it seems to be the case...



I am wondering if the GG's that have a hard time accepting the CD’s aren't so in touch with their own feminine side?

I mean, I am a real "girlie girl". I love clothes and shoes and perfume and make up and jewelry. I spend a lot of time and money making sure I am just so. I have seen Kew's pic and Tamara's and they appear to me, to be the same way...

Maybe that is why it is easier for us to accept and understand, because we can totally identify?

The CD's that I have spoken to about this, that have problems with their GG's, do not describe their SO like that. I am not saying that they are like totally masculine, but they don't seem to care about that girlie stuff as much...

What do you think?



Just a thought...

I have way too much time on my hands today...

LOL!



Lots of Love,
;)
Pattie

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She was most scared...that she would have to defend me. That, to Julie's point, that I have now put her in a compromised position. Where other shaved attributes are 'disguised,' this is now very open and allowing for questions in which she will not easily be able to answer. I can still remember the conversation: everyone will ask her why I do it, she can't and might not know what to say..."oh yeah, my husband is a TG....then its, really. What does he do?. Do you like it? Is he bi or gay? How does it impact your relationship, etc.? it just keeps on going.

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She can just say that he is a metrosexual. Metrosexuallity is becoming more and more known by the general public. At least it avoids the entire "Are you gay?" part and insure that they dont think the mariage is a sham .

Helena, I like your perspective...with the body hair, it is just hair on the body...it might seem strange to our wives but it certainly doesn't change the 'look.'

I believe you are right that as people we become familiar and comfortable with our partner's face. Changing this picture simply changes the picture!

I also still believe if we are to help others understand, that sticking up for our 'rights' is important and what we all fight for (eg human rights, equal rights, etc.). Each of us simply need to determine the path that both fits our community, our family life, our personal comfort to help change peoples' perspectives. We can be extreme about it and create martyrs (sometimes needed as history has proved in many situations) or we can pursue a gradual chiseling at society....I believe both are needed so long as we understand more about our actions and how they impact others.

So very sad here to hear about the obstacles that still need to be overcome.
Wish I had some magical words or ideas that would help in any way.
As a show of support Ill be wearing a nice set of lashes in your honor today,perhapes a pair with a hint of pink.(As I usually do not wear false lashes but today an exception is made)
And by the way my girlfriend of nearly 15 years I have picked up as being somewhat jealouse of my appearance,as I get men gazing at me more often than her,its a combative thing in the female knome.