Are crossdressers insulting to women?

I'm married to a wonderful woman who, despite her attempts to be understanding about my crossdressing, wishes the whole thing would just go away.

There are a lot of reasons for her not being accepting, but here's one I'd like to hear your opinions about.

My wife thinks that my crossdressing is insulting to women. There's so much more to being a woman than the clothes and makeup, but by thinking that clothes and makeup make us more feminine, we reduce women to creatures to whom fashion and appearance are everything and are the essence of being a woman. Our attempts at looking like women is a parody of what real women look like and a gross exaggeration of what women think is important.

My knee jerk reaction is probably what a lot of yours is: one of the reasons we like to dress is because we love women and love how they look. If anything, there's an aspect of jealousy in some of our dressing. There's also an aspect of jealousy when we see a beautiful woman and think "she's beautiful" and "I would love to be able to wear that outfit and look beautiful, too."

I'm trying to get past instant reactions. I can understand part of what my wife is saying. Most women I know don't spend a lot of time obsessing over their appearance. They're too busy doing really important things like working, taking care of children, trying to keep in touch with friends and family, trying to figure out how to make the world better and probably spending too much time on taking care of other people and not enough time taking care of themselves.

Many of us crossdressers invert this by having a somewhat selfish attitude to crossdressing. We don't get dolled up so we can make a dish for the person down the street who's not feeling well or visiting an older relative in a nursing home. We mostly do it for the thrill (sexual or, for many older cds, a different kind of relaxed / energized feeling).

Still, I get that being a woman is not about finding that perfect pair of pumps and sending notes to girlfriends telling them how their new outfit is sooooo cute. But, there are aspects of being a cd that are. I don't think that just because we emphasize what we think are the fun things about femininity that that makes what we do insulting to women.

What do you think?

I'm also really interested in what real women think about this whole argument. As my wife has pointed out, the attitudes of other crossdressers may be just a bit biased.

i consider mine to be emulation of that which i adore. i love women to the extent that i am disssapointed that i am not one. i have always been jealous of women, in a good way. imitation is the highest form of flattery, no?

They say 'Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery'. Perhaps your wife feels that CD's are invading her territory. Try and get your wife to visit here as a guest, and see what motivates us. She may learn a thing or two.

Sarah R. :bunny:

I can understand if some GG, s would get upset but there is absolutley no malice in what i or we do , and certainly no offence is planned xx

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Originally Posted by Jessika69

i consider mine to be emulation of that which i adore. i love women to the extent that i am disssapointed that i am not one. i have always been jealous of women, in a good way. imitation is the highest form of flattery, no?

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You said it perfectly.:thumbsup:

I can somewhat relate on how some GG's show contempt for CD's. Or even engaging in things that are normal for GG's such as shaving legs. Which I have been told by several GG's that they don't approve of GM's doing that. I guess to some it's taken as an insult, or that womens clothes are sacred for GG's only and not meant for GM's regardless of the intent for wearing them.

How do you gently tell your wife that this isn't about her?

Au contraire: no greater compliment could be paid to women. However, let's face it: we are women in women's splendour, without menstruation, hot flashes, migraines, cellulitis, and the cultural need to be up to a 18 year old's physical standard. So, yes, there might well be some understandable resentment, although it likely lies on a rather unreasoned emotional level.

Then we on the other hand do women the way that they dress an insult to men, I say this because as I was in church today I counted only Three women in skirts or dresses, I know that when I was growing up I was taught to be dressed in an appropriate manner I never in my younger years saw so many women wearing pants not pant suits but frayed and ragged jeans to church, but then I guess GOD doesn't really care what you look like when in church, at least be respectable to others.
I know I will get a lot flack on this but, that's what this forum is for to get other oppinions.:rolleyes::straightface:

It's a tough one to counter because it's based on feelings rather than hard facts.
Though I wonder if your wife has at some time seen a CDer (possibly a drag queen on stage) who was mocking or ridiculing some form of feminine mannerism. Something like that might have offended her very much and she may carry this over into feelings about CDers in general.
Just a thought.

I honestly and sincerely believe that the feeling of insult is more of an invasion of territory than an actual offense and, as such, has more to do with cultural notions of gender boundaries than anything else.

Reading on the board, a lot of SOs seem to get really irked if their CDing partner shaves his legs. I have also been in a relationship with a girl who was semi-supportive but when I shaved my legs once she said, "Don't do that again." This is kind of a case in point - body hair is a pretty personal thing. I figure that (and I realize this is a pretty odd parallel), just as many women (and men, including myself) demand abortion rights because they want control over their bodies, men should be able to control their own bodies to the extent that they should be allowed to decide if they want hair growing on their legs or not.

The real "problem" is that it treads into feminine territory - not that it mocks or degrades women in anyway. By shaving your legs you are participating in a time-honored tradition of that GG, her mother and all the women in her life. They shave their legs. They complain to each other about razor burn. They joke about how they haven't been shaving for a few days so they have hairy man legs and need to wear long pants to hide them until they get around to shaving them again. You enter into a world that the GG views as "women only."

So, I don't think it's that CDing necessarily degrades or puts down women (obviously if done with bad intent, anything can degrade women) it's just that it kind of tampers with the feeling of exclusivity that many women associate with all things feminine.

Are Glamour, Vogue, Cosmopolitan Insulting to women?

Seriously, their primary focus is on getting just that right look, and that cute outfit, and how to give your man just what he wants in bed, among other things that have very little to do with a womans day to day life. I have never seen a harried woman, wearing sweats and no makeup on the cover of those magazines.

If those magazines, with there primary focus on such a small portion of what it means to be a woman, are not insulting a woman, then why would a man trying to explore some of those same things be insulting?

Yes, we are limited by our biology and cultural norms to just how much we can experience what it is like to be a woman, but I do not believe that our interest in exploring the aspects that we can are in themselves insulting.

Is CD'ing insulting to women? I would have to say no.
Are some women insulted by CD'ing? obviously the answer is yes.

If men wearing women's clothing are an insult to women then I guess women wearing men's clothing must be an insult to men. The logic is the same so if it is valid in one case then it must be valid in the other as well. However, clearly most women wearing pants are not trying to 'impersonate' a man, whereas most often when a man is wearing women's clothing they are trying to impersonate a woman. However, if they aren't just clothes then the next time she wear pants, suits, ties, tell her she is looking too manly and you are insulted. This probably won't win you many sympathy points so don't really say it as if you mean it!

Not in my experience (of meeting a lot of genetic women)?

Fascination, interest, friendliness, occasionally jealousy - but they do appreciate that we understand more about their world and share in it? It's also quite usual for genetic women to be protective of us?

Of course the big line is crossed when it's a partner - that's a whole other ball game, where it's perfectly understandable that we're encroaching on their perceived space and roles and potentially looking too good while doing it.. :idontknow:

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Originally Posted by StacyCD

If men wearing women's clothing are an insult to women then I guess women wearing men's clothing must be an insult to men. The logic is the same so if it is valid in one case then it must be valid in the other as well. However, clearly most women wearing pants are not trying to 'impersonate' a man, whereas most often when a man is wearing women's clothing they are trying to impersonate a woman. However, if they aren't just clothes then the next time she wear pants, suits, ties, tell her she is looking too manly and you are insulted. This probably won't win you many sympathy points so don't really say it as if you mean it!

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I love to wear womens clothes,especially pantyhose,it feels heavenly

I can't speak for the others, but I personally dress to suit myself...As I would if I were a GG, or perhaps some day as a transitioned girl...

But doesn't dressing as a woman or atleast mimicking their GG's or one they have seen during their life time the highest form of flattery...

Just my personal thought...

Maybe some of us are women in a man's body, and feel more comfortable with our selves by dressing as women.

Ive heard a couple of GG's make statements, relating to their displeasure upon seeing me a Joy. That's on them, and in no way affects how I feel about myself.

I think Lisa hit the nail on the head:

"The real "problem" is that it treads into feminine territory"

that is not an insult, but can be seen as an offense and competition.

I remember telling my lesbian daughter about my desire to transition as a woman and express my feminine side. She came down on me like a ton of bricks. Her mother and I had been divorced for some time so we were not close at all. Anyways, she told me that I knew nothing about being a woman, about what women go through, and that I was insult to womanhood. We have not spoken since. That was over 20 years ago!

I think it bothers some women that we can look as good as they do, or better. It also demystifys women, and you begin to realize that when you see a pretty woman, much of what you are looking at is just window dressing. Short skirts, high heels, and nylons? No big deal. Hey, I can do that too.

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Originally Posted by Melinda G

I think it bothers some women that we can look as good as they do, or better. It also demystifys women, and you begin to realize that when you see a pretty woman, much of what you are looking at is just window dressing. Short skirts, high heels, and nylons? No big deal. Hey, I can do that too.

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I think this is true also, Melinda. How much trouble can I get into by agreeing with you?

Women don't get insulted by your wearing skirts and dresses. Many of them find it kinda cute and endearing.

Women get insulted when you get ALL dolled up and think that you are being feminine. You aren't being "feminine" at all. Dressing up doesn't make you feminine. Clothes don't make the MAN, and clothes don't make the WOMAN.

Women get insulted when you seem to think that the superficial accutraments are what is important about being a woman. Real women know that they are feminine no matter WHAT they are wearing, and they can get miffed when you imply that the CLOTHES are what is important to femininity.

Real femininity comes from within. Real women know this and they want you to know it also.

JMHO

Stephie

Let me try to put it this way.

Women hear you say, "I love women and I want to emulate them."

Then you get all dressed up, heels, stockings, girdles, wigs, makeup, slips, dresses, and nails.

Women think, "Wait a minute!" "If you really want to emulate women, why aren't you kinder, more nurturing, more understanding, gentler, and empathetic?"

"What's with the clothes?"

"Is that all you think of me?"

Whence cometh the insult.

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Originally Posted by Stephenie S

Women don't get insulted by your wearing skirts and dresses. Many of them find it kinda cute and endearing.

Women get insulted when you get ALL dolled up and think that you are being feminine. You aren't being "feminine" at all. Dressing up doesn't make you feminine. Clothes don't make the MAN, and clothes don't make the WOMAN.

Women get insulted when you seem to think that the superficial accutraments are what is important about being a woman. Real women know that they are feminine no matter WHAT they are wearing, and they can get miffed when you imply that the CLOTHES are what is important to femininity.

Real femininity comes from within. Real women know this and they want you to know it also.

JMHO

Stephie

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I agree with what Stephanie says. I have been to CD meetings and the girls there sit like men use the restroom like men and made no real effort to act like a lady accpet for wearing women clothes....I try to spend most of my free time as a lady and trying to act like a lady...the women I have met seem to like me and accept as a woman..i have been invited to places with female friends, I had one friend who asked me to go shopping with her to buy a new dress and we were at Nieman Marcus trying on 300.00 dresses and sharing the same changing room...truly one of my highlights:love:

I think only the GG's can answer this one ... :2c:

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Originally Posted by goofus

I think only the GG's can answer this one ... :2c:

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Therefore, I shall.

I think that crossdressing in itself is not inherently insulting to women. I can see, as has been previously posted, that many CD's are dressing because they love and idealize women. So, in the generic sense, no crossdressing is not insulting.

HOWEVER...........:eek:

There are some CD's whose intentions may be pure, but whose carry out can be incredibly insulting.

Examples:

Messages that we GG's aren't living up to our potential if we aren't dressed a certain way are horribly insulting. We can't always wear what some CD's fantasize about when they think of feminine garb. Practicality keeps me from wearing a lot of the things that my CD SO wears. I am no less of a woman because of that.

Mimicry that misses the mark and is actually a hurtful parody can and is insulting. I know that again this is a fantasy ideal, but sometimes I see what some CD's feel is feminine, and it doesn't come across to me (and other GG's) as flattery. It says to GG's that you see us as cartoonish parodies and we may feel mocked rather than flattered.

Implying that only by having sex with a man can a CD truly feel like a woman is insulting. I have many women friends who have never been with a man. Either by choice because they are Lesbians, or because they never had the opportunity and probably won't. To say that a woman is only a woman if she has been sexual with a man is HIGHLY insulting.

Let me clarify this by saying a few things. I dont believe that most CD's mean to be insulting if they fall into these (or other) categories that GG's find insulting. I don't feel that any insult is intentional, which is why I usually won't call CD's on the insult. I think a lot of this is wrapped up in that dreaded pink fog. I am sure that most of the CD's who are wrapped up in said fog are perfectly reasonable and pleasant people when not befogged.

I agree with some that there can be "territory" issues. But, honestly, unless you suddenly buy some implants and lose an appendage.....we really can't compete. Because as good and passable as some of you may look, when the skirt comes off.....I have something you don't that will always trump you when it comes to the territory issues :heehee: (please take this statement in the vein it was intended.....smile a little ladies)

Consider also, wives (such as that of the OP) may have reservations because they associate CD'ing with Transvestism as personified by RuPaul and others. While I think RuPaul is a hoot, she is a little over the top and that can be insulting to some women. That isn't what GG's are really about.

Unless you are either Cher or Bette Midler. And they are in a class all their own :tongueout

So, easy answer, no Cd'ing isn't insulting. Complex answer, some of the behaviors can be.

I tend to go with the "....sincerest form of flattery" way of thinking but I would also like to think that when I am fully dressed I tend to be more feminine in my movements and way of thinking.
Of course I can think that way too when I am at the mall in drab and look at all the beautiful clothes and shoes. :heehee:
:love:
Edwina

I really don't care who is insulted, or why they are insulted by how I live my life.

I *can* see what your wife is saying. It's not about the clothes, the clothes are so superficial so to say you are emulating us by dressing, is in a way offensive.

To narrow down what it is to be a woman, to what we wear is insulting.

I *do* find a lot of fashion/beauty mags insulting, wouldnt it be great if there was a mag that said "You are great just the way you are dont buy this new makeup, or learn about the newest plastic surgery technique, or the newest fast 250 cal diet" ect ect.
BUT that wouldnt make $$.

I look at clothing cataloges, because I need some winter clothes but then ALL of the women in them are probably 30-50lbs thinner and 3 to 6 inches taller. I think why bother? There's no way I can look like that.

I feel bad for the younger girls who *think* this is normal so they starve themselves to try to fit into an image that is all an illusion.
I guess in some ways I am just like all the young girls, minus the starving myself.

I dont buy all those fashion/"women's" magazines though.

My day is consumed w/nearly dying in a car accident on Thursday, dealing w/chronic depression/mental illness, trying to take care of my 4yo old and just being. If only my life were so simple as to just worry about what "cute" outfit I "get" to wear tomorrow.

Are crossdressers an insult to women?

Well unfortunately I think the poor dear is making a few erroneous assumptions.. First and foremost..

1)That we define women by how we dress. But crossdressing is an outward expression of something internally feminine. Now what that may be exactly is debatable, but for me its an expression of my need to be beautiful. The only difference is, the feminine aspect is what is beautiful to me. Every man has a feminine side. CD'ing is just a need for each man to express his own femininity, something he is perfectly entitled to define. When she wants to look attractive does your wife put on a fake mustache, stuff a sock down her pants and belch alot? No, I'm willing to bet that she uses makeup, wears a bra, and puts on something flattering to her figure. This is according to her own definition of what makes her attractive, which she is entitled to. But so are we. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that we are not defining womanhood, but rather that which is feminine in us.

That having been said, what I think most people fail to realize is that the feminine side of a person needs to mature along with the rest of us. This is true for real women too. That's why you have stores that cater to teenage girls, and then stores for older women. Girls tend to dress a certain way at a certain age, then they progress. With men for whom femininity is a larger percentage of the overall pie, this progression is just as necessary but stunted by lack of opportunity. CD's usually have a lifetime of being denied this opportunity to express, and often compensate by trying to make up for lost time. Do you remember the Michael Jackson lyric, "Its been my fate to compensate for the childhood I've never known?" Just switch 'child' with 'woman.' I remember when I finally got cleavage down, I was so happy about that that I was always wearing low-cut stuff, just because I could! My girlfriend said to me "God, you're like 14-year old girl! 'Hey everybody, I just got boobies so look at them!' " And she had a point. But eventually I didn't feel the need to as much and I moved beyond it. Eventually I even wore pants when dressed up. But it took time to be confident in my own femininity.

Now when she says that crossdressers emulate women poorly by obsessing so much over their appearance, I think that is a misinterpetation. I think that really we are so deprived of our own femininity that we become fascinated with little aspects that women take for granted. Keep in mind that CD's find women very beautiful, and women look like women even rolling out of bed first thing in the morning. This isn't true of us, we start at a handicap. She says that we look like parodies of women. We don't want to, so surely she cannot fault us for trying so hard? We know that we're not women, but we DO try to do them justice on some level!

I'm sure she's a wonderful person and you certainly could have done worse on the acceptance scale, I just hope I can help her understand a little better. Its not a matter of where we put women as a whole, just a matter of where we stand in relation.

No, I do not think being a crossdresser or crossdressing is insulting to women. I wish people could accpect others for who they are and not what they wear.......


Amanda

Problem is, some folks idealize the gender aspect too much and totally forget life is about people being people and we get hung up on appearance or apparent intentions. We are all together in this and there is no other planet to go to(that I know of) to get away from each other. Regardless of what we wear or what we are physically, we are all PEOPLE and we all have feelings. There are many ways to try and understand the feelings of others but the best way is honest and heart felt communication. That is why some have trouble seeing the forest, too many dang trees in the way, pretty as they can be.:happy:

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Originally Posted by Violetgray

Are crossdressers an insult to women?

Well unfortunately I think the poor dear is making a few erroneous assumptions.. First and foremost..

1)That we define women by how we dress. But crossdressing is an outward expression of something internally feminine. Now what that may be exactly is debatable, but for me its an expression of my need to be beautiful. The only difference is, the feminine aspect is what is beautiful to me. Every man has a feminine side. CD'ing is just a need for each man to express his own femininity, something he perfectly entitled to define. When she wants to look attractive does your wife put on a fake mustache, stuff a sock down her pants and belch alot? No, I'm willing to bet that she uses makeup, wears a bra, and puts on something flattering to her figure. This is according to her own definition of what makes her attractive, which she is entitled to. But so are we. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that we are not defining womanhood, but rather that which is feminine in us.

That having been said, what I think most people fail to realize is that the feminine side of a person needs to mature along with the rest of us. This is true for real women too. That's why you have stores that cater to teenage girls, and then stores for older women. Girls tend to dress a certain way at a certain age, then they progress. With men for whom femininity is a larger percentage of the overall pie, this progression is just as necessary but stunted by lack of opportunity. CD's usually have a lifetime of being denied this opportunity to express, and often compensate by trying to make up for lost time. Do you remember the Michael Jackson lyric, "Its been my fate to compensate for the childhood I've never known?" Just switch 'child' with 'woman.' I remember when I finally got cleavage down, I was so happy about that that I was always wearing low-cut stuff, just because I could! My girlfriend said to me "God, you're like 14-year old girl! 'Hey everybody, I just got boobies so look at them!' " And she had a point. But eventually I didn't feel the need to as much and I moved beyond it. Eventually I even wore pants when dressed up. But it took time to be confident in my own femininity.

Now when she says that crossdressers emulate women poorly by obsessing so much over their appearance, I think that is a misinterpetation. I think that really we are so deprived of our own femininity that we become fascinated with little aspects that women take for granted. Keep in mind that CD's find women very beautiful, and women look like women even rolling out of bed first thing in the morning. This isn't true of us, we start at a handicap. She says that we look like parodies of women. We don't want to, so surely she cannot fault us for trying so hard? We know that we're not women, but we DO try to do them justice on some level!

I'm sure she's a wonderful person and you certainly could have done worse on the acceptance scale, I just hope I can help her understand a little better. Its not a matter of where we put women as a whole, just a matter of where we stand in relation.

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Everything here is spot on from my point of view, and I'll add that I have seen crossdressers DO things that might be considered demeaning towards women.

One example was a TS I used to know who had started on her hormone therapy. About 3 months in she made a comment along the line sof "Ohhh I just did an airheaded thing *giggle* The hormones are working and I'm becoming a woman faster than I thought".

I thought my SO was going to punch her right in the mouth for that.

*hugs*

Zara

I personally don't think it's insulting but what I find annoying more than insulting is cders who seem to think that all ggs wear skirts up to their a*** and have to have makeup on and be dressed to the nines all the time, It aint like that.

Dee, I think you hit the nail on the head. I have heard that certain CD behaviors tend to tick off most GG's more than wearing skirts and heels. I love women, and just am jealous that I am not one (at times) but realistically, I respect the female role and would never want to make fun of it. That being said, I will continue to foster my utmost respect for women, and never intentionally hurt one's feelings, or tread on their territory. I still like being the strong shoulder for my wife and a lot of her friends. God bless them all.

P.S. Sandra, The tacky dressing that you mention in your post is one of the actions that I am speaking of.

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Originally Posted by windycissy

How do you gently tell your wife that this isn't about her?

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By bringing it to her, into a committed relationship, it becomes about her life as well.

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Originally Posted by Echo Logical

Are Glamour, Vogue, Cosmopolitan Insulting to women?

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Hell yes, they are insulting.

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Originally Posted by StacyCD

If men wearing women's clothing are an insult to women then I guess women wearing men's clothing must be an insult to men.

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Ummmm, yes many men are insulted by that. Wonder why so many CDs bring that up? That comment is equally territorial.

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Originally Posted by Melinda G

I think it bothers some women that we can look as good as they do, or better.

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That comment exemplifies the biggest "insult" factor - competitiveness. You may or may not look better than "some women". Get over yourself. I don't much care for vain people - CD, male, female or otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Stephenie S

Women don't get insulted by your wearing skirts and dresses. Many of them find it kinda cute and endearing.

Women get insulted when you get ALL dolled up and think that you are being feminine. You aren't being "feminine" at all. Dressing up doesn't make you feminine. Clothes don't make the MAN, and clothes don't make the WOMAN.

Women get insulted when you seem to think that the superficial accutraments are what is important about being a woman. Real women know that they are feminine no matter WHAT they are wearing, and they can get miffed when you imply that the CLOTHES are what is important to femininity.

Real femininity comes from within. Real women know this and they want you to know it also.

JMHO

Stephie

Let me try to put it this way.

Women hear you say, "I love women and I want to emulate them."

Then you get all dressed up, heels, stockings, girdles, wigs, makeup, slips, dresses, and nails.

Women think, "Wait a minute!" "If you really want to emulate women, why aren't you kinder, more nurturing, more understanding, gentler, and empathetic?"

"What's with the clothes?"

"Is that all you think of me?"

Whence cometh the insult.

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I can not add to that - excellent! Thank you Stephanie!

The old adage "Clothes make the man" comes to mind. That was never true. Neither do they make the women.

I can't tell you why wearing women's clothing is relaxing to me. It just is. Is it a psychological thing? Sure! If it wasn't, then I would be able to achieve the same results no matter what clothing I wore.

I can understand how a GG can feel threatened by this. I can understand how a man can feel threatened by this. Perception is reality. Therfore, if a women or man believes crossdressing is insulting to women, then it is. For them. I don't personally believe crossdressing demeans women in any way.

Anyway, since crossdressing is thousands of years old, I suggest a person that has a problem with this learn a little more tolerance.

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Originally Posted by lisa_e_love

The real "problem" is that it treads into feminine territory -

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The real problem is that some just do not have a clue:Angry3:

I'd like to weigh in agreeing with those who understand why CDing can be insulting. Notice the phrase, "CDing can be insulting", not "CDing is insulting". I'm not generalizing here. (Btw I'm FTM...ish. I live mostly as the woman I was born as, but also have this boyish side I'm learning about.)
Honestly, the insult is part of why I stopped hanging around on this side of the board. It's not that everyone says it, but it's prevelent enough, comments like "I don't understand why women don't dress up more. They're so beautiful and it's just wrong not to show it off." Or the implication that the most feminine thing in the world is a pair of panties or a cute skirt. Yeah, those are feminine articles of clothing. But I feel more like a women when with a small child then when wearing a skirt. (And that's not just because of my own gender issues.) A real women is a person, not just a look. And most of you see that. But sometimes some of you seem to get lost in the pink fog and loose sight of that. While it's understandable, it's something that you should watch out for. Be aware that being female is more than the clothes one wears, and don't forget that, even though the focus on CDing tends to be more on what you can't have: the clothes you're not allowed to wear in public. Anyway just my thoughts.

Interesting question; I think my take is that to be insulting there would have to be a deliberate intention to insult or ridicle. For me I don't "choose" to dress; I have to. It is part of who I am. Therefore I can't see crossdressing as being an insult to women, nor, if I think about, is it a "flattery by imitation". Something inside of me requires me to express my feminine side through the way I present myself; and if that upsets some people - male or female - so be it.

Even if I had the will power to stop dressing - and I have ABSOLUTELY no intention of going down that path!! - I would still have a need to express my womanly side somehow.

I don't think CD'ing is insulting to women. I love the women in my life and have worked for several women as my superiors and have nothing but respect for them. CD'ing is a personal thing to me. What started me to do it , I don't know but it was very early in my life and I liked the way it made me feel. I can understand women getting upset by some who dress over the edge as in looking more like a hooker or a clown, but thats just as demeaning to CD's as it is to women. It's a personal thing to us and not a personal attack on your wife.

Has anyone ever watched your pet cat or dog, and tried to figure out what your pet is thinking? I haven't, and I haven't thot about what women think of CD's either. To me, women r like another species. I just can't figure their thinking process out! Reading posts by men, about what women think, is rediculous! I haven't a clue, and neither do most of u! If u really want to know, ask a GG. Good luck listening to the 1/2 hour+ answer! Yeah, I know that's sexist talk. Not appropriate for a CD site, rite? Hah.
RS

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Originally Posted by Cassy11

I don't think CD'ing is insulting to women. I love the women in my life and have worked for several women as my superiors and have nothing but respect for them. CD'ing is a personal thing to me. What started me to do it , I don't know but it was very early in my life and I liked the way it made me feel. I can understand women getting upset by some who dress over the edge as in looking more like a hooker or a clown, but thats just as demeaning to CD's as it is to women. It's a personal thing to us and not a personal attack on your wife.

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Wow.....if it were all conducted with such compassion. I don't think anyone is suggesting it is a deliberate or personal attack on spouse, but some manifestations, attitudes, comments and presentations are not done as respectfully as you present the case. When that happens, you are right, it's demeaning all the way around.

Unfortunately, even the most loving spouse may not realize the effect of his words such as: "Creating the perfect woman" (that one is admittedly rare); "I look better than my wife when enfemme"; "Why can't women be more feminine?" None of those create the atmosphere of support and sharing that simply "I feel so wonderful dressed this way" does. Sad.

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Originally Posted by bi_weird

I'd like to weigh in agreeing with those who understand why CDing can be insulting. Notice the phrase, "CDing can be insulting", not "CDing is insulting". I'm not generalizing here. (Btw I'm FTM...ish. I live mostly as the woman I was born as, but also have this boyish side I'm learning about.)
Honestly, the insult is part of why I stopped hanging around on this side of the board. It's not that everyone says it, but it's prevelent enough, comments like "I don't understand why women don't dress up more. They're so beautiful and it's just wrong not to show it off." Or the implication that the most feminine thing in the world is a pair of panties or a cute skirt. Yeah, those are feminine articles of clothing. But I feel more like a women when with a small child then when wearing a skirt. (And that's not just because of my own gender issues.) A real women is a person, not just a look. And most of you see that. But sometimes some of you seem to get lost in the pink fog and loose sight of that. While it's understandable, it's something that you should watch out for. Be aware that being female is more than the clothes one wears, and don't forget that, even though the focus on CDing tends to be more on what you can't have: the clothes you're not allowed to wear in public. Anyway just my thoughts.

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Great post Bi, very insightful :thumbsup:
Nic

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Originally Posted by alarmclockgirl GG

wouldnt it be great if there was a mag that said "You are great just the way you are dont buy this new makeup, or learn about the newest plastic surgery technique, or the newest fast 250 cal diet" ect ect.

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There is a magazine like that...it's called "Ms."

I don't think dressing itself can be insulting to women, but the thought process at times can be.

Examples: It doesn't effect my wife , I am more womanly because of how I dress, oh my favorite, I dress and do girlie chores.....

But I don't let them bother me.. and there will be times when I am with someone and they look better than me..... and frankly I don't give a whoot!!

Hugs,
Kris

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Originally Posted by Tree GG

Unfortunately, even the most loving spouse may not realize the effect of his words such as: "Creating the perfect woman" (that one is admittedly rare); "I look better than my wife when enfemme"; "Why can't women be more feminine?" None of those create the atmosphere of support and sharing that simply "I feel so wonderful dressed this way" does. Sad.

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That's a good point, and it rises the question where do statements like this come from ?

Is it disrespect or the intention to insult someone ? No, IMO.

Is it thoughtless ? Yes

Is it a lack of empathy ? Yes

Is it a sign of aplomb ? Definitively not.

IMO it's a sign of tentativeness and desperate attempts of justification.

How serious should comments like this be taken ? :idontknow: We all should know better.

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Originally Posted by Marla S

IMO it's a sign of tentativeness and desperate attempts of justification.

How serious should comments like this be taken ? :idontknow: We all should know better.

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You're absolutely right, Marla. We should roll our eyes and walk away. Adolescent behavior/comments.

And I should probably walk away and let the phase pass (which it will, with or without me). I've nearly finished raising 2 children.....God help me, I don't have the energy for a 3rd.

Yes CD'ing is insulting to some women.
No matter what someone is or does, someone else is going to have a problem with it.

If nothing else, this has been a thought provoking post!

I agree: No matter what someone is or does, someone else is going to have a problem with it. A child gives a teddy-bear a common Muslim name, and religious extremists call for a death sentence upon the child’s teacher. A hateful person from Topeka KS pickets the funerals of American troops because (before fighting a war) they do not first go door to door and kill all the homosexuals in this country. Hatred is not a family value, and clearly tolerance is very scarce indeed.

Is crossdressing insulting to people other than GGs? Should crossdressing be insulting? Should GGs be insulted? Should GGs be insulted by the crossdressing or by other aspects which typically accompany crossdressing? For crossdressing to insulting to women, does there have to be a conscious intent to be insulting? If so, is that intent relatively common or perhaps relatively rare? How should people who are insulted by crossdressing deal with the insult?

One generally has to make mistakes in order to learn from them. I’ll never forget once when I tried to apologize to my mother in law and explained there was no intent to offend, and she replied that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. From this I learned never to apologize to my mother in law. Was this the lesson she intended? I doubt it! In fairness, my own mother has been equally thoughtless and insensitive towards my own beloved, as no doubt have I.

If there is no intent on behalf of the insulter to commit insult, then who is in the wrong? Does the insultee not bear some of the responsibility for ensuring a constructive outcome?

As for crossdressing, given the clear possibility of insult, is it any wonder so many of us stay in the closet?

Simple answer:

NO ! :)

We seem to have taken the issue from whether or not crossdressing is insulting to whether or not acting feminine is insulting.

There are so many posts here that say that being a GG is more than just about the clothes. I don't think any CD thinks that being a GG is just a bed of roses, picking out outfits and trying out new makeup combinations. But that's what CDs are into - outfits and makeup. By selecting those aspects and experimenting with them, CDs like myself derive pleasure and a feeling of security, escape or relaxation. When out in public I try to act with feminine mannerisms because I enjoy allowing my feminine qualities to take over when I'm dressed.

But by dressing up, CDs are NOT saying, "Oh, look. I think being a woman is ALL fun." We are, for the most part, well aware of the economic, psychological and emotional problems that result from being oppressed and underprivileged for so much of American and world history. Our dressing is in no way a mockery or a commentary on that aspect of womanhood. It is selecting an aspect that we enjoy and participating in it as well.