Question for everyone except GG's ;)

Ok, here goes...

Take a moment to sit back, relax and think before answering these questions. Yeah, I know, they have probably been asked here before... but I wasn't here before and I couldn't find a thread of close relevance to this.

1) Deep within...what do each of you believe it is to BE a woman?

2) In what ways do you further your belief?

3) Aside from the physical attributes, has there been anything within your beliefs that keep you from being all the woman you think you can be?

As always with what I am asking, there is no judgement calls... just honesty in who you are, who you think you are, and where your particular journey leads.

*hugs*

Zara

My feeling about it:
- I have no clue of was a woman IS, and I will never have. Women are a wonderfull mystery, and that's the reason I worship them so much that i try to occasionally be/feel/imitate one of them.
- When I say this I'm considering both feminine gender and sex. The genetic woman "sensations" could be something I never can imagine as I am not a gg, nevertheless even if a Daltonian don't see colours he has some guess of "something". So when I crossdresser even if what I feel is probably not a "BEING" a woman, like the Daltonian I feel "something". The feminine gender on another hand s something I can try hard to mimic, by learning the feminine word. In my opinion gender is more than a social construct, part of innate, reflex, trieb, instinct, make the feminine gender special and "diferent".
3) What could make me not being a woman is the existence of an "alterity" as I've described in 2) For me masculine vs feminine are not just "diferent" but "other". If interested you can read Levinas on this.
Kises
Carla Mel

As an egg I started my journey as female... Then I met this tadpole that promised me the Earth and the Stars, but he lied... The altered me wasn't all it was cracked up to be... All the re-wiring and programming he could do could not hide what I was on day one. Inside me the female I was, and was told I was no more, existed still.

How did I know? There were nuances of life that I could not explain my affinity for... others which were mine I saw with revulsion... and the little speck that was me in the beginning grew and with each day the cry became more manifest...

And now in my tertiary stage I have altered my chemical compostion so that the female that was me no longer screams and the boy I never was never is.

Yep... that's about it.

Strange I should come across this thread today. I was driving steel around work last night on the forklift thinking about something very similar.

To be a woman.

Empathy; Taking time to be more observant and caring about what goes on with the people and the environment I find myself in at a given moment.

Grace; Maybe moving a little slower toward forming opinions and making decisoins to make sure I've considered ALL possible alternatives and points of view.

OK so got a phone call that ruined my train of thought. more on this one later

Technically, being a woman is about one's sex, i.e. plumbing?

I think the question is more slanted to being feminine (which is one's gender) - but there must be as many answers as there are of us?

So - for myself:

1) Being feminine is about being strong, within oneself; about being innately co-operative, rather than competitive; about focusing on others, not just yourself. That's not to say there aren't women out there who completely don't have those qualities?

2) I let myself express myself in the way that comes naturally to me, rather than how I learnt was expected of a 'man'? That doesn't mean I'm not something of a tomboy, I like playing with boy's toys.. :)

3)Err - I guess I'm happy in the place I find myself, now. I'm an in-betweenie, I don't need to transition?

Lady Zarabeth;1116667]Ok, here goes...

Take a moment to sit back, relax and think before answering these questions. Yeah, I know, they have probably been asked here before... but I wasn't here before and I couldn't find a thread of close relevance to this.

1) Deep within...what do each of you believe it is to BE a woman?

i just don't know !! all my life i just feel that i should have been all i have is my feelings

2) In what ways do you further your belief?

my gut feelings .. i am who i am


3) Aside from the physical attributes, has there been anything within your beliefs that keep you from being all the woman you think you can be?

fear of losing family and friends .. That happened .. unrealistic expectation due to genetics .. but i sure can dream

As always with what I am asking, there is no judgment calls... just honesty in who you are, who you think you are, and where your particular journey leads.

*hugs*

Zara
if i may :-- who can say that i was never a woman or how does one think like a woman or feel ..
it's not like we can De compile our soft-wear and see .. in the end all i have is my Feelings ..

where your particular journey leads.

well surgery would be wonderful ,ffs, grs, breasts, voice .. but to be honest i may never get any of it done .. and may never get to my full potential .. i wish life was easy well thats another dream

What makes a woman a woman ? that would make a good thread

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Originally Posted by MJ

What makes a woman a woman ? that would make a good thread

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Well, as I intimated in my thread above, at least some of it's about having the potential to have babies - which is why having a hysterectomy, mastectomies, or any other reproductive problems can be so destructive to a woman's psyche? :sad:

Let's concentrate on femininity? :idontknow:

Nickie B said it pretty well. To be a woman is to have the proper plumbing! I don't and never will. I am a man who likes to wear feminine clothes. Nothing more and nothing less.

Yes, I do definitley have a feminine side. Probably more pronounced then many men. I like to think that makes me more sensitive to my own feelings and that of others. I do believe I am more caring then many other men, and always have been. I am also very sentimental. Many things make me choke up!

But still, I am a man! Strongly feminine and proud of it, but a man none the less.

Lisa G. does all the question answering for me because we are so alike !

Nothing better to add to her answer.


Emily Ann

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Originally Posted by sissystephanie

Nickie B said it pretty well. To be a woman is to have the proper plumbing!

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Not necercerally. I have the 'right pluming' and I'm by no means a woman (though I know what you're geting at).

I think what it means to be a woman difers through cultures and time, and a lot of that is learned as children, through upbringing, media exposia, ect. (sorry if I'm spoiling the mood or anything, just my :2c:)

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Originally Posted by John

Not necercerally. I have the 'right pluming' and I'm by no means a woman (though I know what you're geting at).

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B-b-but - you're not feminine? ;)

I'm just trying to split it up so we just talk about gender, not sex... :idontknow:

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I think what it means to be a woman difers through cultures and time, and a lot of that is learned as children, through upbringing, media exposia, ect. (sorry if I'm spoiling the mood or anything, just my :2c:)

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You're not - you're talking about gender.. :winking:

And I agree with you.

What is a woman?
Quite easy for me to answer that. Anyone to whom I have talked with for at least 30 minutes, and I have not understood 2 words of what they r talking about, is either; a GG, or an alien, ( illegal or otherwise).
Maybe that is why I love the little dears so much. We operate in different universes. But when we come together, the planets move!
RS

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Originally Posted by docrobbysherry

Maybe that is why I love the little dears so much.

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I do hope your tongue is firmly in your cheek... :gg:

OK...I'll bite... my answers are similar to MJs, although I blab on way more than she does.

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Originally Posted by Lady Zarabeth

1) Deep within...what do each of you believe it is to BE a woman?

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Whatever it is that I feel inside I guess. Oh I could go on about all the empathy-receptiveness-nuturing-multitasking etc crap that we always use to divide men and women but I believe most of those things are learned behaviours or pre-existing aspects we all have that are either fed or starved according to where you settle in society's gender spectrum.

Maybe there are biological differences but I'm the wrong person to ask. I never fit any of the stereotypes.

So it comes down to 'whatever it is in my brain and soul that makes me female'. And it is deep. That's why it's hard to put a finger on it, and I'm not sure I want to anyway because that feels false. Lisa is right... we all start out that way, so we are told, and then it's a matter of what modifications are put on us. Some of us take those modifications better than others.

Mine fell off.

Cheap glue I think.

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2) In what ways do you further your belief?

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I'm not sure I understand this question. I guess I'll go with MJ's answer. I yam what I yam.

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3) Aside from the physical attributes, has there been anything within your beliefs that keep you from being all the woman you think you can be?

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I don't think anything I 'believe' keeps me back. In fact my beliefs push me forward if anything. What does hold me back?

Let me count the ways-
1. My relationship. My partner may not wish to live with another woman. It wasn't what she thought she was getting.
2. My friends and family - some of them will likely feel so uncomfortable if I transition that they will either try to talk me out of it or just stop talking.
3. Job and career opportunities may be restricted if people see me as a tran and not as a natal female. Or a shudder natal male.
4. Money. It costs a hell of a lot to transition.
5. Pain. If I elect to go for surgeries that will transform me I will feel the pain. I kinda like avoiding pain when I can.
6. Time commitment. I do have other things I want to do in my life besides present as the correct gender. Unfortunately this one keeps popping to the top of the list which is driving me crazy...which brings me to the final one...
7. Overall mental health. I am not so screwed up that I don't realize that I am in no way ready to emotionally or mentally handle transitioning. I have a lot of baggage I need to deal with first.

Other than that, I'm on it.

I should say this though... I do believe that self-acceptance is the big one, the really important one that does help you get through the tougher days. That one I think I have. I love who I am...and yes I do legitimately feel I express, inwardly and outwardly, a more female existence.

I can only imagine what having the biology and social acceptance to match would be like. And of course, for me, most of the big life moments growing up, romancing, having children, being at the height of my beauty, have already passed me by, so that kind of reduces the compulsion to change everything. Doesn't make it go away though.

One step at a time.

well.. i don't know what a "gg" is, so i'm not answering. but i shall read what the others say.

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Originally Posted by Nicki B

Let's concentrate on femininity?

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Wise words indeed.

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Originally Posted by Lady Zarabeth

1) Deep within...what do each of you believe it is to BE a woman?

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I have no clue and never will experience it.
Closest to get is to be accepted as a woman for a GM IMHO.

"1)Deep within...what do each of you believe it is to BE feminine?"

To be Non(less)-masculine plus a bit more.

2) In what ways do you further your belief?

A lot of activities and likes, that are not stereotypical masculine, and kind of annoyance and dislike in a masculine environment, if I have to identify with it.

3) Aside from the physical attributes, has there been anything within your beliefs that keep you from being all the feminine you think you can be?

I have XY and was socialized as male. That leaves marks that can't be covered by makeup and clothes ... probably not even by HRT and SRS.

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Originally Posted by Marla S

I have XY and was socialized as male. That leaves marks that can't be covered by makeup and clothes ... probably not even by HRT and SRS.

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Plato and perfect forms...

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Originally Posted by docrobbysherry

What is a woman?
Quite easy for me to answer that. Anyone to whom I have talked with for at least 30 minutes, and I have not understood 2 words of what they r talking about, is either; a GG, or an alien, ( illegal or otherwise).
Maybe that is why I love the little dears so much. We operate in different universes. But when we come together, the planets move!
RS

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I'll drink to that RS.:drink:Damn, good thing we have the multiverse, huh?

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Originally Posted by Lady Zarabeth

Ok, here goes...
1) Deep within...what do each of you believe it is to BE a woman?

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To be the fountain of nurturing,
the strong fabric and architect of community,
the natural inspiration of beauty and harmony,
the ones who feel most deeply the mysterious rhythms, tides and forces of nature,
The Emotional Sea.

Women are connected to their being through their monthly cycle, huge investment and risk in procreation, dependence upon community to co-nurture children, and the dominance of their beings by their feminine sexual organs, and hormonal cycles.

Women as beings confound all rational analysis, and triumph over the war of the mind against mystery. The rational wants to reduce things to their simplicity so that they can be mentally inspected, exchanged, controlled, utilized.

The totality of a woman defies the rational, hence Freud's lament "What does a woman want?"

Women know, and can share the smile of La Giaconda with each other. What men can piecewise guess about women, though never fully understand with their minds, women experience directly through their being, and need no language to confirm it.

The power of the raw demand of Nature upon them gives them an awesome duty and the tools to accomplish it - heightened senses, the ability to endure the pains of childbirth and child-rearing, the creativity to make play and joy of the task of domestic necessity and fulfillment of children's needs.

Add to that ...women can develop all the mental acumen which men live and die with, to which she brings her inner unlanguagable comprehension and capacities.

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2) In what ways do you further your belief?

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Knowing women intimately...listening to them without aim. Loving them.

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3) Aside from the physical attributes, has there been anything within your beliefs that keep you from being all the woman you think you can be?
Zara

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My desire to "Accomplish" an emulation of womanhood is self defeating.

Womanhood is not an "it" that can be cloned. It is a consciousness and a being-ness that must be grown into, and an array of sense capacities that only Grace can confer upon a humble, hopeful man.


:rose: Roberta :rose:

I have no problem with you asking these questions, but I have to say they are nothing to do with my life as a CDer. I was born a man and will die a man: I have no idea of the experience of being a woman, no hope of ever having that experience, and no need to have it.
What I do is my attempt to express those traits of my personality which I believe are feminine. There is no basic requirement for me to imitate a woman either physically or psychologically. I do sometimes try to pass cosmetically as a woman, when I go out in public dressed, but the motive there is partially to avoid confrontation.
What I aim to be is a CDing man, and I don't try to deceive myself that I am "being" a woman at any level.

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Originally Posted by docrobbysherry

What is a woman?
Quite easy for me to answer that. Anyone to whom I have talked with for at least 30 minutes, and I have not understood 2 words of what they r talking about, is either; a GG, or an alien, ( illegal or otherwise).
Maybe that is why I love the little dears so much. We operate in different universes. But when we come together, the planets move!
RS

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Mate, that is so funny! And true. :heehee:
:hugs: Jazzmine

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Originally Posted by RobertaFermina

Womanhood is not an "it" that can be cloned. It is a consciousness and a being-ness that must be grown into, and an array of sense capacities that only Grace can confer upon a humble, hopeful man.

:rose: Roberta :rose:

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Wonderfully poetic as usual Roberta.

However, I cannot agree that everyone has to grow into it or have it conferred upon them.

Some people are born with it, whether they realize it or not and whether they look or play the part.

Well, in that sense they also grow into it the same way any natal female would. If they are aware enough and are able to.

Mmmm, after getting a four-take (that's when some guy gives you an obvious twice over, four times), while I was in my semi-fem mode, I wonder.

But anyway, I feel that no one knows or can truly answer these questions. How much is learned and how much is natural?

Of course, you could take two newborn babies, one female and one male, put them in the jungle, with no human contact, and secretly watch them for twenty years, and see what you learn.

In the mean time, I'll just continue to try to express my inner feelings, to the best of my ability.

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Originally Posted by Nicki B

Well, as I intimated in my thread above, at least some of it's about having the potential to have babies - which is why having a hysterectomy, mastectomies, or any other reproductive problems can be so destructive to a woman's psyche? :sad:

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I know women whose heads would explode at hearing such a definition. It's reproductive essentialism at its worst, and it's completely invalidating of women who are sterile for any reason.

As one of my favorite authors on the roles women in ancient times would put it, you have subscribed to the concept of women as being creatures that exist to bleed and breed -- a mysogynistic concept that has been used throughout time to justify the enslavement and oppression of women.

Also, to avoid being completely hypocritical, one must also conclude that sterile men are not real men, either.

Ahem.

Let's just say that I don't subscribe to this point of view...

Seems to me, to be a woman...would be to be born female (or to have had SRS).

To be feminine, it does not matter what you were born as.

I have to say that there are some very diverse responses to my questions. Some things I had not considered, but highly informative all around.

Seriously, thank you for responding :)

Zarabeth

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Originally Posted by Kehleyr

I know women whose heads would explode at hearing such a definition. It's reproductive essentialism at its worst, and it's completely invalidating of women who are sterile for any reason.

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Tell that the parents that give their daughters dolls to play with and tell them "now you are a woman" when their daughter had her first menstrual period.

Other than that Nicki said "the potential". That is quite right, IMO and has nothing to do with misogyny.
Upbringing of girls is based to a good part on that potential. Like it or not, that's the way it is. Whether this potential can be honored later is a complete different question. If not, for medical reasons, it will cause identity problems, indicating that it is an important (not the only though) part of the identity.

If you like turn the argument around and tell girls: "Your potential is pointless and unimportant"
How many would agree or would not feel insulted or dishonored?

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As one of my favorite authors on the roles women in ancient times would put it, you have subscribed to the concept of women as being creatures that exist to bleed and breed -- a mysogynistic concept that has been used throughout time to justify the enslavement and oppression of women.

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That's an over-interpretation IMO.

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Also, to avoid being completely hypocritical, one must also conclude that sterile men are not real men, either.

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This conclusion is quite right. How many men undergo sterilization despite it is less risky for men? Not many, and those few who do usually need years to adjust to this idea to become "less of a man". Why there isn't any widely accepted birth control method for men ? Instead birth control is usually the duty of women with all side effects it can have.

Like it or not, our and every other culture is based on reproduction, because that's the biological meaning of male and female. The fact that we are able to think and develop a culture beyond biological requirements is precisely the problem that defining and redefining men and women is an ongoing and probably never ending process. One that only can be solved on a personal, but not a general level IMO, because any definition needs criteria. You will always find someone who fails to fulfill these criteria but needs to get a particular label nevertheless. --> redefining.

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Originally Posted by Kehleyr

I know women whose heads would explode at hearing such a definition. It's reproductive essentialism at its worst, and it's completely invalidating of women who are sterile for any reason.

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I'm not quite sure what 'reproductive essentialism' is - but I think telling most women that what they are has absolutely nothing to do with the potential to give birth is likely to make them feel insulted? Nowhere did I, nor would I, say that's all that a woman is?

That's why I tried to focus the discussion on femininity? Surely a 'woman' is the combination of a female sex and a feminine gender? :strugglin

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As one of my favorite authors on the roles women in ancient times would put it, you have subscribed to the concept of women as being creatures that exist to bleed and breed -- a mysogynistic concept that has been used throughout time to justify the enslavement and oppression of women.

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I was more trying to include the viewpoint of many TS friends of mine - who've all seemed to get incredibly broody, once they're post-op? :sad:

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Originally Posted by Nicki B

Well, as I intimated in my thread above, at least some of it's about having the potential to have babies - which is why having a hysterectomy, mastectomies, or any other reproductive problems can be so destructive to a woman's psyche?

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Originally Posted by Kehleyr

I know women whose heads would explode at hearing such a definition. It's reproductive essentialism at its worst, and it's completely invalidating of women who are sterile for any reason.[SNIP!]

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I'd expand on what Nicki B said by adding: by adding "innately formed and intended to have babies....."

Even when a woman is sterile, her being remains intact. Some feel a loss, in sterility, others don't.

Even if a woman doesn't bring her feminine being and abilities to bearing children, she may bring it to rearing them, or apply them in a completely different direction, giving life and nurturing to Art, Corporations, Political Careers.....

Men create and nurture as well, yet *typically* in a different way a woman can.


:rose:
"Vive la Difference!" :rose:

concepts are, and as deep as they are, I really cannot buy into many of them. I did love and enjoy reading them. They are all food for thought.

I guess I am a simpler human.

To me a woman is my mother, my wife, my daughter. They are women. But what a different lot they are. My daughter is 11 and loves to look femme. My wife gets irked by this. She gets even more irked when I buy my daughter the sexy sandals she wants but my wife will not buy for her. My wife is happy in jeans and t-shirt but is an intellectual and loves beautiful earrings. Being a woman for her is when she takes the clothes off. My mother was naturally sexy and feminine. She never even tried to look the part. My ex was cool, distant, exacting. Emotionally, I was always the woman of the house.

That said, I think there are all kinds of women. Whether the differences amongst themselves and between them are men, emotionally or mentally speaking, are innate or learned will be an eternal subject of debate. There are differences in hormones and these do change our behaviors.

I always knew I was different. I never played with dolls or wore girlie clothing when young. But I was profoundly sensitive. I was always one to touch and express my feelings. When I developed sexually, I found later I came like a girl. I found myself being into caressing and fondling and was told by many a lover that making love to me was like they imagined it would be with another woman.

Crossdressing as an adult has allowed my femininity to be expressed more fully. If I sometimes dress with too short a skirt and piggytails, it is not just sexually induced, it is a means to express the most feminine bits that lurk within and want to get out. Call it my latent teens. I would love to be able to further this by going out dressed as "feminine" as possible. Letting everyone know this is me and I am OK. By "feminine" I mean what feels feminine to me. This means something different to all of us, including the women in my life.

Besides wanting to get out more, I would love to dress more often and go out with my SO as two girls, which she really wants to do. Fear keeps me from doing this. Other than that I am happy with the balance. I do not want to be too much more woman than I am at present, although I would like more time being one. My little boy was telling me yesterday that he loves the way I kiss him and hug him. That the other fathers in his class are mean to their kids. I do not know what he means by all this, but it still feels good to hear it. My girl thinks she is the luckiest to have a stepfather that buys Seventeen and buys her girlie things.

Oh, and I KNOW I will NEVER know what it is like to be woman. Just do not remind me so. I do not want to hear it. When I am dressed, I AM a woman.

Michelia