Still Living in the Dark Ages

Now that I've calmed down a bit, I can talk about it.

Last week I went to a local Social Security office and talked about changing my name and gender on their records, just as I did on my driver's license. I presented all the evidence in my arsenal: my license, letters from work, therapist, doctor, etc. and tried to calmly explain what the situation is.

I was told in no uncertain terms that no changes can be made until I have "the operation". I explained that there is no such thing, and that the particular surgery they're requesting is not possible, but the woman told me that's their policy and there's nothing they can do. So it's the same problem as with the passport office. :doh:

The disturbing thing is that she also suggested I commit fraud - this from a government worker. :eek: She said I should get a letter from a surgeon confirming that I have had such surgery ("no one is going to examine you to prove it")! I told her that's fraud, both me and the doc can end up in jail and I'm not going to add legal problems on top of everything else. :Angry3:

So now I've been half-seriously considering moving to another country where the government doesn't have its head up its ass. Why should I be loyal to a country that doesn't want me? :straightface:

Lex, that sucks.

I wish there was some way to sue them. Policy won't change unless it's forced.

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Originally Posted by Cai

Lex, that sucks.

I wish there was some way to sue them. Policy won't change unless it's forced.

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Don't think that didn't cross my mind too. How does one find a lawyer willing to take on the U.S. government? Where's Denny Crane when you need him? :p

:doh: god your system seriously needs to change its rules! ive said this before, there are thousands of NON op girls and boys in your country alone i bet, that for whatever reason cant or wont ever have surgery.....you are legally male in one sense but not in another thats just effing stupid

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Originally Posted by CaptLex

Don't think that didn't cross my mind too. How does one find a lawyer willing to take on the U.S. government? Where's Denny Crane when you need him? :p

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Considering where you work, I figured you would have thought of that already if it were possible.

Lex, have you taken that low level civil servant's word as the final say-so?

I'm thinking that a trans-phobic paper pusher just might be trying to give you a run around because 'it' just doesn't want to deal with you!

Ask for their supervisor...and if still no joy, consult an immigration lawyer.

It seems to me that in the big apple you should be able to find someone to help you with this kind of quasi-bureaucratic crapola!

You're right about the fraud. Putting fraudelent statements on a Federal form is worth a prison sentence, not just a slap on the wrist. Whoever gave you that suggestion, needs reporting! They're not doing their job and encouraging a felony...

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Originally Posted by Cai

Considering where you work, I figured you would have thought of that already if it were possible.

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Nah, I think they'd be afraid the publicity could cause them to lose big clients. :p

I did ask one of them, "How does one go about taking the government to court?" He said, "Well . . . it's been done." Big help that was. :doh:

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Originally Posted by deja true

Lex, have you taken that low level civil servant's word as the final say-so?

I'm thinking that a trans-phobic paper pusher just might be trying to give you a run around because 'it' just doesn't want to deal with you!

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Well she didn't just give me a routine answer. She asked me to wait while she made some phone calls and spoke to someone higher up. Then she came back with an "official-looking" paper that said that. It's exactly what the passport office told me, so it sounds like it's the official U.S. policy.

I know there are some organizations working hard to overturn this, but who knows when or if progress will be made. I don't want to wait 20 years for things to change, but it looks like I have no choice.

What surgery do they consider "the surgery"? The top one? And ugh yeah this is all a bunch of bs.... :( stupid gov't.......

Ah ya got to love a country that judges you by your genitals but arrests you if they see them in public ! I wonder if a FTM having Top surgery (I think that's a PC term) is "The Operation" to the government or are these rules made up on the spot ? You maybe entering uncharted waters Capt' . When someone invents the device they used in the old Star Trek show to swap Kirks and the evil women's bodies, that's really going to foul things up for the bureaucrats . I personally want trade with Daisy Fuentes.

I find it quite humorous Lex that the very ones who should be following the law to the letter are often the first ones to suggest breaking it. Typical.

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Originally Posted by Salandra

I find it quite humorous Lex that the very ones who should be following the law to the letter are often the first ones to suggest breaking it. Typical.

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I thought the same thing - crazy, huh? :blink:

Sorry I wasn't clear before: "the surgery" is phalloplasty, in the case of FtMs (vaginoplasty in the case of MtFs). It doesn't matter to them that it's not possible for most of us guys. The other procedures (top surgery, etc.), I was told, are not enough.

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Originally Posted by CaptLex

I thought the same thing - crazy, huh? :blink:

Sorry I wasn't clear before: "the surgery" is phalloplasty, in the case of FtMs (vaginoplasty in the case of MtFs). It doesn't matter to them that it's not possible for most of us guys. The other procedures (top surgery, etc.), I was told, are not enough.

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Wow, really? That does suck. Which is a bit weird, because I can get a court order to change my gender on my birth certificate I think without the bottom surgery. I wonder how they can deny it then... dunno... what a strange deal...

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Originally Posted by Tristan

Wow, really? That does suck. Which is a bit weird, because I can get a court order to change my gender on my birth certificate I think without the bottom surgery. I wonder how they can deny it then... dunno... what a strange deal...

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But things like birth certificates and driver's licences are decided state-to-state (or sometimes by counties) - they don't have to adhere to the federal policy.

On another note, Tristan just reminded me . . . today is my tranniversary. ;) I started taking T two years ago today . . . drinks on the house (or the ship). :drink:

:drink:Cheers on your 2nd T-versary!!

Wow, how time flies, well, for me anyway!!:eek:

Can't believe the fed worker suggesting that, wow, could lose their job, must've really liked you!!:heehee:

Hugs, so sorry, how do we change the rules? Sign me up, I'll help!!:D

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Originally Posted by CaptLex

But things like birth certificates and driver's licences are decided state-to-state (or sometimes by counties) - they don't have to adhere to the federal policy.

On another note, Tristan just reminded me . . . today is my tranniversary. ;) I started taking T two years ago today . . . drinks on the house (or the ship). :drink:

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Well NJ requires SRS to get a gender change -- not sure how they define srs though for that. But still weird that I could get a birth certificate that says I'm male.... so you'd think if I waited till I had that and applied for one how could they not go by it... my birth certificate would say male lmao but yeah gov't's messed up. It all comes down to a fear I think. That they need to know whats under our pants even if it's none of their business.

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Originally Posted by KrazyKat

:drink:Cheers on your 2nd T-versary!!

Wow, how time flies, well, for me anyway!!:eek:

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Yes, time flies when you're having rum. :winkp:

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Originally Posted by KrazyKat

Can't believe the fed worker suggesting that, wow, could lose their job, must've really liked you!!:heehee:

Hugs, so sorry, how do we change the rules? Sign me up, I'll help!!:D

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I know you can kick ass, so I'd always want you in the fight. :koc:

Well, Tristan, some places (like NYC) still won't allow birth certificate changes, and it's my opinion that it's because this will lead to legalizing gay marriages (or at least civil unions) here. :rolleyes:

It's really confusing (and frustrating) that things are not universal in our country, so lots of things depend on where you live. At least NY state sees me as a boy. :thumbsup:

Happy tranniversary! :hugs:

But what they heck do they mean "the operation," there's about a dozen very expensive ones and the results are not all that great... I think the U.S. policy on that seriously needs to get amended on that. :Angry3:

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Originally Posted by ZenFrost

Happy tranniversary! :hugs:

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Thanks, dude! :cheers:

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Originally Posted by ZenFrost

But what they heck do they mean "the operation," there's about a dozen very expensive ones and the results are not all that great... I think the U.S. policy on that seriously needs to get amended on that. :Angry3:

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I tried telling them that, but it fell on deaf ears. :rolleyes:

Aww, yes, state to state. Karen can't get her birth cert changed as it's from Illinois. We've heard and seen how the current Illinois Congress laughs at gender issues in session, and they are probably secretly wearing some lace underneath!!

In the sate we live in, Indiana, we are still legally married, all though that could change anyday. We are working on getting Blue Cross to change this on our policy so they will cover Karen's mammograms, etc. They keep telling us they are checking with the state legal dept, which means they are trying to figure out how to screw us out of coverage, I'm thinking. Or trying to figure out how to make us not legally married(2 legal females married:eek:), which always makes me snicker anyway, because this is such a arse backwards bible thumping state, we still can't buy alcohol on Sundays!!:eek:This one slipped through the cracks, I'm expecting it to catch up with us at any time, and then we can go to the Supreme Court, you think?!

We'll see you there!!:thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by CaptLex

. . . So now I've been half-seriously considering moving to another country where the government doesn't have its head up its ass. . . .

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. . . because I'm pretty sure that's part of the definition of "Government" - any and all governments. IE - head well and truly up it's ass.

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Originally Posted by CaptLex

Sorry I wasn't clear before: "the surgery" is phalloplasty, in the case of FtMs (vaginoplasty in the case of MtFs). It doesn't matter to them that it's not possible for most of us guys.

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For my education, could someone briefly summarize the physical limitations on phalloplasty that make it "not possible" ? I know that in general any kind of major surgery is counter-indicated for various health reasons (e.g., you'd avoid it for hemophiliacs, or for people likely to react badly to anesthesia), but it sounds to me as if you might be implying something else, such as "not enough tissue for success" ?

I in no way mean to imply that anyone should "have to" have such surgery to be considered to have changed their gender; but the Captain seems to be implying that many physically cannot get it done if if they wanted to, and I am presently unaware of the reasons for that?

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Originally Posted by tess-leigh

For my education, could someone briefly summarize the physical limitations on phalloplasty that make it "not possible" ? I know that in general any kind of major surgery is counter-indicated for various health reasons (e.g., you'd avoid it for hemophiliacs, or for people likely to react badly to anesthesia), but it sounds to me as if you might be implying something else, such as "not enough tissue for success" ?

I in no way mean to imply that anyone should "have to" have such surgery to be considered to have changed their gender; but the Captain seems to be implying that many physically cannot get it done if if they wanted to, and I am presently unaware of the reasons for that?

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1. There are many operations involved.

2. They cost more than many can afford.

3. 'Success' is relative, the results don't work properly so many avoid it altogether because often a prosthetic is better for many guys.

4. Also, for some it is physiologically not possible to have a successful phalloplasty, such as for reasons you mentioned.

The cost is the big one, $150k is a bit more than most call affordable, especially since insurance does not cover it 99% of the time.

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Originally Posted by tess-leigh

For my education, could someone briefly summarize the physical limitations on phalloplasty that make it "not possible" ? I know that in general any kind of major surgery is counter-indicated for various health reasons (e.g., you'd avoid it for hemophiliacs, or for people likely to react badly to anesthesia), but it sounds to me as if you might be implying something else, such as "not enough tissue for success" ?

I in no way mean to imply that anyone should "have to" have such surgery to be considered to have changed their gender; but the Captain seems to be implying that many physically cannot get it done if if they wanted to, and I am presently unaware of the reasons for that?

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Simple version: Because it's very, very expensive, and the results are not (usually) functional or all that aesthetically pleasing. Plus there's extensive scarring on the abdomen and forearm (where the tissue is taken from), and the results take multiple revisions to get correct.

Man, sorry to hear about this situation Lex. :hugs: This government worker needs a serious slap.

- C.J.

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Originally Posted by KrazyKat

I'm expecting it to catch up with us at any time, and then we can go to the Supreme Court, you think?!

We'll see you there!!:thumbsup:

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You said it :hugs: . . . I'll bring the rum. ;)

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Originally Posted by TxKimberly

I'm pretty sure that's part of the definition of "Government" - any and all governments. IE - head well and truly up it's ass.

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Haha, well said. :clap:

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Originally Posted by C.J.

Man, sorry to hear about this situation Lex. :hugs: This government worker needs a serious slap.

- C.J.

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Thanks, C.J., she sure does. :p

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Originally Posted by tess-leigh

I in no way mean to imply that anyone should "have to" have such surgery to be considered to have changed their gender; but the Captain seems to be implying that many physically cannot get it done if if they wanted to, and I am presently unaware of the reasons for that?

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You're right, Tess-Leigh, I did mean that phalloplasty is not just any surgery and that's why it's not an option for many of us. Thanks for asking, I sometimes forget that not everyone is aware of this stuff, and your question gives us the opportunity to educate people. Feel free to ask anything else you'd like to know. :)

As Zen and Cai stated, it's very expensive because it's really a series of complicated procedures, and it usually doesn't look or work like it's supposed to. So it's not a viable option - at least not for me or the majority of transguys.

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Originally Posted by CaptLex

...
I know there are some organizations working hard to overturn this, but who knows when or if progress will be made. I don't want to wait 20 years for things to change, but it looks like I have no choice.

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So Captain, who, what org, is working on overturning this blatantly unconstitutional policy? It denies "freedom of expression"to a portion of our population. It is obviously sexist, though probably not in the way that equal rights legislation proponents intended.

I sure hope it's not those so called allies of ours that left us all hanging when it came to keeping T-folks included in ENDA.

How can we help? Donations? Case studies? How?


Also, can your "honorary" Canadian citizenship be used to eventually get where you need to be? Researched Canadian policy on this issue? Mind being a real Canadian? Our neighbors to the North have a great history of taking our "huddled masses yearning to breathe free."

Good Luck to you Captain. You're gonna need it if you're gonna have to fight this bigoted policy of the "Land of the Free". Ha!

respect & love (for those who strive)

deja

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Originally Posted by deja true

So Captain, who, what org, is working on overturning this blatantly unconstitutional policy? It denies "freedom of expression"to a portion of our population. It is obviously sexist, though probably not in the way that equal rights legislation proponents intended.

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I know the National Center for Transgender Equality is working on it (http://www.nctequality.org/), and they have other allies. A representative came to our LGBT Center and spoke of it. But she said it's getting harder to get the changes we need because of tighter security issues post 9/11. So it's not gonna be an easy fight. What can we do? I suppose we can make our collective voices heard at places like the NCTE, for starters.

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Also, can your "honorary" Canadian citizenship be used to eventually get where you need to be? Researched Canadian policy on this issue? Mind being a real Canadian? Our neighbors to the North have a great history of taking our "huddled masses yearning to breathe free."

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Don't think I haven't thought about it, Deja. The "honorary" status is in jest (unfortunately), but I'm not kidding when I say I would consider going elsewhere. I've always liked our friendly neighbors to the north. :)

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Good Luck to you Captain. You're gonna need it if you're gonna have to fight this bigoted policy of the "Land of the Free". Ha!

respect & love (for those who strive)

deja

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Thanks, hon. :hugs:

I just wonder why it's necessary to put gender on our passports. I mean if we read male, isn't having our passport say female a flag anyway? Feel the same for a driver's license, it just seems like unnecessary info.

And why is it necessary on so many forms, like when I enter a sweepstake or something, like they can guess what I'm thinking by checking that box!! It really ticks me off that I'm entering to win a GMC Yukon and I have to check male or female, why? :Angry3:
It gets my blood rolling everytime!!

[SIZE="4"]That's really weird, Lex. Wonder if she knows what she's doing? Do the right thing. Happy Tranniversary! :balloons:

Gennee

P.S. I need a shot of rum.[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by gennee

[SIZE="4"]That's really weird, Lex. Wonder if she knows what she's doing? Do the right thing. Happy Tranniversary! :balloons:

Gennee

P.S. I need a shot of rum.[/SIZE]

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Here you go, Gennee :drink: . . . thanks for your good wishes. :hugs:

Sorry to hear you're still fighting the moronic system Lex.

Not sure if we're all that much better up here. The current government kinda thinks highly of the dark ages themselves, but you're more than welcome to come on up and add to the sanity.

Sounds like you definitely need to find advocates and allies and band together and start eroding that wall of insanity that exists.

It strikes me as being patriarchal and sexist too, in not recognizing the differences in SRS procedures, and their availabilty and cost and success rate, between MTF and FTM.

I still think you just need more pirates and rum and reckless abandon. The presidency is wide open. Who says you need to be on the ballot to take over? :ph34r:


hahaha... I just got put on a watchlist... :canada:

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Originally Posted by kerrianna

Not sure if we're all that much better up here. The current government kinda thinks highly of the dark ages themselves, but you're more than welcome to come on up and add to the sanity.

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I'm gonna have to learn all new spellings, though, right? And give up my Amstels for Molson? :thinking:

Well, as long as you still have rum north of the border. :drink: :heehee:

Keep in mind that I'm blond here, but is it possible that they are afraid to change the law for transmen fearing us girls will then be able to be "women" without a surgery that is more successful?????


Emily Ann

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Originally Posted by Emily Ann Brown

Keep in mind that I'm blond here, but is it possible that they are afraid to change the law for transmen fearing us girls will then be able to be "women" without a surgery that is more successful?????

Emily Ann

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:confused:

I'm not sure what you mean, Emily, but I don't give the gov't that much credit. I don't think they're thinking at all . . . I believe they're just not bothering to learn the facts and couldn't care less how this affects us. :straightface:

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Originally Posted by CaptLex

Well, as long as you still have rum north of the border. :drink: :heehee:

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We have Screech! Rum fit for a pirate. You like it to taste a bit like tar right? :p

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/306/screechck8.png

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Originally Posted by tess-leigh

For my education, could someone briefly summarize the physical limitations on phalloplasty that make it "not possible" ? I know that in general any kind of major surgery is counter-indicated for various health reasons (e.g., you'd avoid it for hemophiliacs, or for people likely to react badly to anesthesia), but it sounds to me as if you might be implying something else, such as "not enough tissue for success" ?

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What everyone else said on this subject, and then I'll add that there IS another surgery, that some states accept, that some transmen are lucky enough to be able to use, that DOES give a completely satisfactory, realistic-looking, functioning result: metoidoplasty. However, my state (Illinois) does not consider it to be 'a sex-change operation,' and neither do the feds.

[SIZE="1"][Icky medical details: if you're lucky enough that testosterone hypertrophies your clitoris to 2-3 inches long, you can have a (much more minor than phalloplasty) operation to cut loose a few ligaments on the inside and rotate out the 'hidden' erectile tissue at its root, to give the whole thing a more phallus-like appearance. However, even this is often more expensive than MtF GRS surgeries -- if an order of magnitude cheaper than phalloplasty, and much more useful in its outcome.][/SIZE]

I must fit into some strange loop-hole, could be from being adopted at birth? The state here will allow me to change my name and gender just by petitioning the Family Court, appearing before a judge to explain why I want a name change. No "red" stamped papers needed :strugglin

Maybe Family Court instead of any other entity?????

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We are working on getting Blue Cross to change this on our policy so they will cover Karen's mammograms, etc. They keep telling us they are checking with the state legal dept, which means they are trying to figure out how to screw us out of coverage, I'm thinking.

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I keep tellin' ya Kat...we all need to take another vacation!!! :kickbutt: :D

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This one slipped through the cracks, I'm expecting it to catch up with us at any time, and then we can go to the Supreme Court, you think?!

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LCF comes to mind. If anyone has fought to get laws changed regarding sex and gender in front of the supreme court - he and his attorney know every tile on the floor by heart.
hmmmmmm..........

I find this most disconcerting Lex I hope you can find a way round it I really do xx Felix :hugs:

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Originally Posted by CaptLex

Don't think that didn't cross my mind too. How does one find a lawyer willing to take on the U.S. government? Where's Denny Crane when you need him? :p

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Might try Alan Shore, Denny has mad cow.

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Originally Posted by Tina Dixon

Might try Alan Shore, Denny has mad cow.

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:haha: Haha, you're right! Nice to see you around, Tina. :koc:

I tried to sneak an "F" into my name change request and was firmly shot down. Who knew there were actual people who processed the SSN paperwork?

Ahh well, at least the moniker is mine. :)