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I'm seeking to understand if you believe there is any connection between crossdressing and ethnicity or religion, and also if there is a prevalence of crossdressing amongst certain ethnic groups and/or religious groups.
Please do not turn this into a flame war!!! Serious answers only, please (humour accepted, only if appropriate and non-discriminatory).
Thanks.
Wow, that's something I've never thought about. I really don't think there is any more crossdressers in any religion than any other. I think the urge, or need to crossdress has nothing to do with what religion you are.
As for race, again it sure seems like you get CD'ers in just about every race. But,, I don't seem to see too many African-Americans crossdressing, or at least not coming out so we know. Interesting question, you just gave me an idea for a new post in my blog, thanks!
:love:
I would be suprised if there was any difference between racial groups, or whatever. Some races and societies are better at incorporating and accepting it than others. But my opinion is that CD brain chemistry is human nature and so there are as many bonkers CD Muslims hiding somewhere as there are bonkers CD black, white, catholic etc etc hiding everywhere else.
MUSLIM: (In whisper). Can we come out of this closet now?
JEW: You want I die from shame?....... Nice head scarf.
MUSLIM: Thanks.
NAZI FASCIST: Ok we all go together.
JEW: Where to?
NAZI FASCIST: Poland looks good. They're very accepting.
JEW: You think you'll pass in Jack Boots?
JAQUE: Ee as my boots?
JEW: Not you stupid.
CATHOLIC: We're all going to hell.
NAZI: Is that in Poland?
OSAMA BIN LADEN: Stop pushing.
BJORK: $%frt£ closet Vren tagh vug?
PTANGPTANG: She has a point.
I had tended to notice ,or seem to pick out myself, that there are a lot of cd's who are of the anglo saxon persuasion. Myself being one of them. I have also noticed that the English comedians seem to have a proclivity for crossdressing in there acts more so than most others, Uncle Milty excluded of course. I do know that it is spread thoughout the various peoples of the Earth, but I had noticed the bend toward the English etc.. ancestry. Whatever it is I'm glad I am a cd no matter my ancestry, it makes me "whole". Just my 2 cents, pennies or dracma, Dael
cross dressing is more prevelant in the anglo community because we are the most noticed race and have better access to computers. I have read that asian societies are more open and will not discriminate like we do. The africian societies are not really visible worldwide because of their lack of computers. I have heard that muslim men have sex with each other premaritally and do not consider that gay. I also think that the clothing of the society where you live has some affect.
I think you could not get a good answer even if you put all the antropologists together and let them tell us.
We've said before that the majority of CDers are deep in the closet, so the actual prevalence of CDers in any community is very hard to gauge. The level of acceptance of CDing in a community would affect how many are brave enough to peep out of the closet.
What I'm saying in my roundabout way is that I expect the percentage of men with CDing urges is constant everywhere, but a greater or lesser proportion of these will be visible in any community depending on the level of disapproval.
I think Robbie is right for the most part. Higher income in general gives anglos better computer access and more privacy and free time... So...we're more prevalent on line (on this english language site). But also notice that there are many sisters of color on our own forum.
We search Google and other engines in English for the most part, so it's English language sites we'll come up with most.
But there are dozens of Asian sites, many in Japan, many in Thailand, a few in the Phillipines.
There are French and Spanish anf Hindi language sites and fora.
There are several brutal videos on youtube of Arab crossdressers being harassed and jailed.
It would not surprise me if the percentage of crossdressers in any society is about the same. It's just that in the more permissive societies of the 'developed world', we tend to stand out a lot more.
Seen the hundreds of tranny sites that now come out of the former Soviet states? In the days of the Iron Curtain, governments there refused to admit the presence of gay people, much less CDs.
Would you walk the streets of Kampala/Bagdhad/Peking/PyongYang dressed if you knew it was a mandatory prison sentence in one of the most repressive or corrupt systems in the world? Would you dare to post to an internet forum where the government controls the internet? Me neither... There are millions of hidden sisters out there. Think about them now and again.
in a word, no.
Unless someone can point to actual studies, anything said on this subject it just BS.
:iagree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fab Karen
Nope, way more primal than all of that and goes back to the beginning of the human species. The need for seeking gender balance supersedes any cultural or religious constructs and is essential for maintaining Universal balance.:)
No. Why on earth would there be?Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily Anderson
If it is due, as most seem to believe, to genetic reasons, it's not likely?
You'll find trans people of all shades and colours in London - previous times saw CDs in Egypt and the Roman Empire, Two Spirit native americans, you will find Hijra in India, Kathoey in Thailand..
Salandra,
That's a very interesting response, as always. Please could you elucidate?
Thanks, Emily.
Put simlpy Emily, the answer is within our own DNA. This is a bit complex for most to understand unless certain keys have been activated as the encoded information is tightly packed because of our current nature. As it says in the spaghetti sauce commercial though, "it's in there". Those who understand know what I'm talking about.:)
i think that thereare crossdressers all thought time oild time and persen time and futer time. that there will allso be crossdressers
I imagine CDs different races, religions, whatever might be "out" to different degrees but as far as the per capita of CDs in any religion or race, nationality, I imagine it is all pretty much equal
This is a large part of some research i have been doing, actually.
I expected CD/TG to be related to certain cultures or societial sets, but it IS NOT. It is worldwide, throughout history. We SEE more of it in the developed world because we are the ones with televisions and computers. It seems that people of any race, religion, or economic status can be CD/TG.
I had kind of thought that CDing would be so prevalent in western men simply for a way to deal with the stresses of the modern world, but throughout written history, its present (and often was far more acceptable than it is today). Every TG i know (and many, many CDers!) the desire has manifested in early, early childhood....far sooner than society begins to form our minds, and certainly a 5 year old is not reacting to career or religious stress!
I think its just part of some of us, no matter where we come from. Pretty cool actually, pretty cool. Whether its a decision we make for ourselves once we begin to learn that boys and girls are "different" or it is something inborn, it sure is a powerful drive.
Terri
I think that in my ethnic group we tend to be a little more silent and not seen, however a small portion those who are seen in my race are D.Q. and some of our families look down and in some cases will attempt to keep you out of the family. This applies t the men for my family which a few are living with partners and they are not accepted at all by the family when the women who are also with partners are accepted. So imagine how it would be with a CD/TG/TS?
This applies to me.
LOL :bonk: but what is Bjork doing in there ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie York
And the Orwell connection ?
:idontknow:
Lil...you didn't know that Bjork was actually one of us? I'd tell you her screen name, but she's still really embarrassed about having no fashion sense at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilith
We got the ABBA 'girls' straightened out though, so I think we can even handle Bjork!
As for Ptangptang, that Python character is actualy Julie's SO!
(Sorry Julie...It was gonna slip out eventually!)
I don't know the stats on who is, which group has more or less, I feel that what may be more significant angle may be what is the impact or meaning have on a person from any specific religion or ethnic group.
I am Hispanic/Latina so gender roles, masculine -vs- feminine statuses, and good ole fashion machismo is very much in the culture. Although, the younger, 2nd - 3rd generation tend to be more accepting of just about everything.
Yet, having our Hispanic neighbors so close will always ensure the influnce of the culture among the boarder states, (I'm in Texas).
So, for me, a male being born in a very macho culture, not to mention, the good ole tough cowboy culture of Texas, it self makes me giving my masculine status to be feminine is quiet the violation. It maybe part of my particular attraction to being transgender itself for I never was all together comfortable assuming a totally masculine persona.
It's an interesting aspect of being transgender for me.
I only know one black cd but a hand full of black TS.
I believe that getting a true census of the CD world would be impossible. My feeling is that it is uniform thoughout all types of people. Some cultures or religions may be more accepting, so it would be easier to be "out". For me, my religion, or should I say the culture of my religion, makes it impossible to be "out", so I am very much in the closet.
BF
This may a bit off the topic but connected.
Over the years I have found that a higher percentage of people that crossdress are involved in the sciences or the arts.
I can't count how many have been involved in the computer business like I am.
This is only my opinion but it seems the the higher your intelligence the higher the probability that you are also a CD.
MY OPINION ONLY!
I have a lot of nudist friends and none of them CD. I wonder why? :D
Hugs, Marci :hugs:
[SIZE="3"]Crossdressing goes back centuries along all racial and social lines. I have Native-American and African-American ancestry. Transvestism and cross dressing was a normal part of many tribes.
Gennee[/SIZE]
:)
TxCassie is probably the only person on this thread that I agree with.
Different groups (often divided on lines that are largely ethnic and/or religious) have different stereotypical gender roles which they expect people to conform to, and they have different degrees to which they accept those who do not conform.
That doesn't affect the number of people who identify with other gender traits (just like it doesn't affect the number of people who are gay), but it does affect how people deal with their feelings. It affects how deeply in the closet people are.
People in more tolerant groups have more fluidity to their lifestyle. If you're always around nice, sensible people, you'll come to terms with your feelings at your own rate. If you come from a hardcore fundamentalist Christian family, you're going to be deeply in the closet about your feelings, and you'll either carry that to your grave, or at some point you'll crack and go kinda overboard with it.
Again comparing to the gay community (only in as much as they don't conform to stereotypical roles -- I don't want to offend the hardcore hetero CDs out there), look at the average black gay guy vs. the average non-fundamentalist white gay guy. In the black community there appears to be much less middle ground. There aren't as many "average" gay guys. They're either totally in the closet, or they're way out and super flamboyant.
So there is some difference in different ethnic/religious groups as far as how people deal with their feelings. I don't think that predisposes people to have transgender feelings, though.
You don't think that perhaps it's just that those people have the most opportunity...Quote:
Originally Posted by KarenCDFL
I'm SURE I don't know!
I used love watching Bjorn Bjork play tennis, back in the day. So, he's a CD now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilith
Being involved in the "arts and sciences" is a pretty broad category.Quote:
Originally Posted by KarenCDFL
And I'm sure there's a higher percentage of computer people in the online CD forums than in the CD population in general. I'm a software engineer myself, but that doesn't seem all that common. I don't go around asking people what they do very often, but of the CDs that I know their profession, I know a lawyer, a graphic designer, a dog breeder, a forklift driver, a band teacher, a restaurant manager, a factory worker, and a CD who works for an ISP doing mostly hardware stuff. The only other software engineer I know is a transexual prostitute, and we're not close. CDs are all over the place when it comes to occupation.
This is very true as I too am the same way in my heritage. he Native Americans call us two spirit.Quote:
Originally Posted by gennee
Hi Emily, :hugs:
I've heard that (apparently??) there is more of it going on in the Anglo American ethnicity than in say perhaps Latino or African American cultures due to stereotypical beliefs of CDing and acceptance of being gay. However, from a personal standpoint, I can't concur. In my "real life world", yeah there are more Anglo American folks in our Sacramento TG group the River City Gems, but online, I have way more friends that come from almost every ethnicity.
From my perspective, I can't honestly say that it is or isn't one way or the other. :strugglin:
In prison, Latinos have been known to kill their girly-men. To defend the race, so to speak.
I am a proud, Catholic, Black CD. There are very few of us though.
Isn't pride one of the seven deadly sins? I'm not proud of the color of my skin or my sexual orientation or my gender identity or my [lack of] religion. That's frightening.Quote:
Originally Posted by epsxyblkm
You should be ashamed of your bad actions and take pride in your good actions (if you're not just reveling in past accomplishments), but pride in general is a bad thing. I'm always a little concerned about people who are proud of things which they were born into.
Not trying to accuse... I think some people say it without realizing what they're saying.
For sure, we cross all the lines, on all the maps.But---those here, are the honest ones---those that can see "2020"!:battingeyelashes:
There's more than one meaning to the word pride. Pride needn't be self indulgence or arrogance or overconfidance, it can also be just a lack of shame.Quote:
Originally Posted by racquel937
It's ok to be proud of ethnicity, gender identity, religious beliefs etc so long as you can be respectful of others being proud of their own. That kind of pride is just positive self-love. Especialy of things that are often looked down on unfairly like race or minority religions etc.
I'm proud of my mixed ethnic heritage even if they are all variaties of white but for the tiny bit of distant Carpathian Gypsies centuries back. I'm also proud of my Aboriginal/chinese cousins.
I'm proud of being an atheist when it comes to religion and of being open minded. I'm proud of being able to have friends from various religions and that we can all respect others views.
I'm proud of being a Goth and I'm proud of having friends who are very much mainstream. I'm working on being proud of being a crossdresser and I wish I knew where I picked up my mixed feelings issues on that one to more easilly unravel them.
Some of course lok down on those who are different but i don't think pride is the cause but hidden doubt. Someone firm in their conviction of their own faith for example wouldn't feel they need to condemn other faiths.
It's worth pointing out too that in the past in much of the world we were sacred!
From shamanic ritual crossdressing to transgender priests and priestesses and gender changing gods/goddesses many cultures have considered us blessed or special or sacred!
Gee! I must be doing it wrong! I thought you had to have access to womens clothing to be a crossdresser. How does one wear a computer? I bet it hurts when you sit down. Give me panties and bras instead of keyboards and cpus.Quote:
Originally Posted by robbie
All in fun. Just couldn't resist, Robbie!
I long been interested in gender, gender roles, gender identity, the masculine-feminine dynamic.
As I mentioned that being Hispanic has given me a unique perspective or flavor to my gender role, both assigned and self-identified. If born male, you're masculine status is valued for societial dominance while the feminine is valued for supportive submission.
Anything less that being fully masculine for a hispanic male can be view in some circles the kiss of death in the social circle. While homosexuality is not openly discussed, the culture of machismo requires it to be thinly veiled underneath it's existence. The status of the man is much determined on much more on the gender role than the intrinsic reality of the man. As long as the man assumes the "top", "dominant", or "masculine" role in the sex act, he will be viewed as masculine or "a man". The male who assumes the "bottom", "submissive" or feminine role in the sex act will be viewed as non-manly, female like, and a host of other vanaculars I rather not mention in this forum.
How this transcends to us transgender, quiet logically. The fact we assume the feminine persona, thus rejecting not just the masculine responsibility given by it's own status, we destory our masculine status. In our culture, that's can be the ultimate betrayal of culture, values, and of the natural order, some would say. Accepting our nature and even more significant, enacting it, making it real slaps the "natural order" in the face while at the same time empowers us individually, excites us, and makes us real. The mere fact we, who as males are the natural embodiment of masculine power are in fact, feminine in nature and we dare to assume it by our dressing making our feminine persona real. In my culture, and I would imagine others, it is a major taboo. Yet, in it's culture lawlessness, it is our very rejection of the masucline status that creates the dynamic with the machismo male. Us transgender confirm the status of the masculine male, for we are that which they are not, feminine. One may say, it's the yen and yang of opposites on the gender spectrum.
I'm not an expert, this is just my own observations and thoughts from a life of conflict, surpression, assumptions, masculine privilage, break through, feminine acceptance, and everything in between.
Cassie
With respect to the original question:
I don't know -- but I'd say there is at least a perception of cultural differences.
e.g., one of our local club members is an international student from India. She has made very few meetings or events, but she was at the May meeting, looking very much like my Hindi neighbour -- simple clothing and makeup and wig, but quite effective. I know that more than one person at the meeting was thinking of how brave she was, to dress as she had in defiance of her culture.
But honestly, I don't know a lot about Hindi culture. She did say once that cross-dressing wasn't very accepted in her culture, but it is an old and complex culture that I know far too little about to be able to fairly evaluate.
Having watched these forums for a couple of years now, there appears to be a higher than chance concentration of crossdressers in the military and police. I could place speculations as to why, but not informed speculation. Zephod might ask, "Is it the rubber? The machismo?" but I would ponder instead whether there is a link to feelings of responsibility?Quote:
Originally Posted by KarenCDFL
battybattybats:
Yeah, I agree with you. I know pride doesn't necessarily mean utter conceit, but... people who are proud of something in a positive way don't feel the need to advertize it. People who talk about their pride are usually pretty narrow-minded.
For example, in the US there are a lot of people with "Power of Pride" bumper stickers with big American flags, and that generally means that they're proud of their love of NASCAR, proud they voted for Bush, proud to be a fundamentalist, and less than tolerant of those who take pride in different things. There are also a lot of obnoxious people with bumper stickers that say "Proud Parent of an Honor Student." There are a lot of proud Ford owners with pictures of a Chevy emblem being peed on.
If I drove around the midwest with a "Proud Atheist Crossdresser" bumper sticker, I'd quickly find myself murdered by the other proud people. :heehee:
Sorry to get OT... I'm sure that mentality doesn't apply to epsxyblkm.
As to race or religion I couldn't say. A psycology professer once told me that crossdressing is most prevelant in a family where the mother is a single parent. If this is true then the african-american community should not be counted out. I saw a documentary on PBS about african-american crossdressers and they say you don't see them because of the tough gangster image there. So as for wanting data I would talk to a shrink or maybe check the PBS web site.:2c:
Interesting if accurate, but because of a role-model thing or perhaps having more freedom to try on mothers clothes when she's out? Maybe it's less likely for a Cding child to be abused into repressing their femininity by the brutal conformist masculine parenting that many fathers especially of the last several generations often employed.Quote:
Originally Posted by boy2girl31
Years ago i had the opportunity to live in the Frankfurt area of Germany. I saw a lot of crossdressing going on and it seemed to be pretty much accepted. I couldn't join in with them at the time (sigh).
I don't think that there is any connection, I am LDS and I know there are more LDS CD out there but they are so far in the closet. The thing that bring closer to me is the fact there is such a diversity in the CD community.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily Anderson
Anna,
Pardon my ignorance... What is LDS?
The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-Day Saints. Also known as the Mormons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily Anderson
I don't want to insult anybody here about the religion. I am going to stick to the Old Testaiment and the New. In the Old Testiment, Deuteronomy is the main book for the Jewish laws. These laws were passed down for God to the Jews for a better living among themselves. If you read the laws as they are, they are against what was happening in the rest of the world at the time. Crossdressing, TS, and homosexuality. There laws are a code of conduct that everyone was supposed to follow. Jesus came along after many years of living. He states that if you try to follow all the laws of the Old Testiment, you are doomed to sin. His coming was to release us from the old laws and follow your heart to God through him. If we are to live as Christains, we have to take his word that we will not have to follow the old laws to the letter to get to heaven. As long as we beleive in him we will not have a problem.
As for the other religions, I am not sure of their beliefs. I know Asia seems not to have a problem wiiht it as much as the US does. Europe seems to have more outed persons than the US. I am sure the rate of CDs to non-CDs is the same thoughout th world or there would not be so many laws in the religious books writen.
I think that was the chemical we used to take when we were hippies, wasn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily Anderson
hehehe
Or it was what Capt. Kirk said Spock had in one of the movies.
Not that I know of. However there are a whole lot of CD'ers who feel a lot of guilt and sin as result of their religion's views on crossdressing.