Going all- out...

Well, I've got a friend coming in from Chicago who knows all about my being TV. I'm open to all my friends and my mum and younger brother (who doesn't really get the whole thing). I was going to take her around town, for fun, and then to an amusement park. I was hoping that this could be my sort of ground- breaking, "trying to pass as a bloke" experience. I've not shaved my legs for awhile now (being careful not to let my family see as that would weird them out) and by the time the 16th of July (our planned date for this adventure) comes around it should look pretty good. I've also just cut my hair and am doing fairly well with binding. And have got a great stuffer. I was even going to put in a little hint of some sideburns.
I'm just not sure that I can pass completely. I mean, my voice is fairly deep but I'm just not sure if I look "blokey" enough. I'm going to post some pictures, can you tell me if you think I'll pass? Please? And if not, what could I do that would help!?!?

Also, I'm very nervous about going into the mens bathroom (we'll be there all day and I drink a lot of liquids so I'm sure I'll have to go). I mean, I can't be passing as a bloke and then go into the ladies'. And if I don't completely pass I don't want to get hassled in the mens. Plus, I'm not 100% confident about my standing urinary device. I wouldn't want to use a urinal so I'd have to use a stall, probably. And I've got no male friends coming with me that would sort of defend me... Or, you know, go in with me so it'd look more like I was just one of the guys. So, does anybody have any advice for me in this case? Should I just duck into a stall and do my business? Or should I try and sneak into the ladies? Find a bush? What do I do?!?!

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/8056/hair4.jpg

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/493/hair5.jpg

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/3320/hair6.jpg

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/3583/hair7.jpg


Sorry if the quality's crappy. I took them myself in the bathroom mirror, as you can tell.

Oh, and which look is best, also?

Hello Abraxas,

I belong in the the M2F forum but thought I could throw in my two cent's here as well.

I think the first "look" is the best.

I think that ducking into a stall is a good idea.

Unless your legs are really hairy, or exceptionally muscualr, perhaps you would consider wearing pants when you go "out and about"?

Just my two cents.

Best of luck and Best Wishes!

Charlotte

Hi Abraxas,

As I'm sure you know, I live in the M2F half of the site as well, but I'll give you my thoughts as a guy to try to help you.

I agree with Softand smooth on the photo, you should go for the look in the first photo, maybe a little more scruffy/wind-swept.

As for your urinary device, don't use it unless you are 100% sure of it and yourself - the last thing you want is dribbles down your legs or something like that (sorry if thats a bit graphic). Go for the stalls every time. If you get the chance before your outing get yourself out somewhere quiet and use the mens room when you can be fairly sure there won't be any one else there, so you can get a bit of confidence. I did the same thing the other day because I got myself caught out (read my later postings in my 'out & about' thread, in the M2F section), and it wasn't as scarey as I had expected going in the ladies room, but I did choose one that I was fairly sure would be deserted, and I had a drive round the car park before I stopped to ensure as far as I could that I wouldn't be 'caught'. There is no way I would have gone straight to a ladies room that would be busy.

Just a quick comment on your previous posting re: your name, yes, I do think Abraxas is a bit of an odd name, and would be interested to know its origin. I think I would choose something a bit more ordinary, but that really is your choice, and I know that you guys in the states do have some names that us in the UK think are a bit odd (and no doubt we have some names that you think odd too). I wouldn't use your real name although it is unisex and it would give you the benefit of being able to use your debit/credit/store cards (unless they have Miss :().

Hugs & kisses

Thanks, guys (girls) :)
And, yes, my legs are exceptionally muscular (I work out and naturally have big calves and monsterous quads), and fairly hairy. I think the legs are alright. I might end up wearing long trousers; it really depends on how hot it is that day.
So, the first photo. Alright... Was thinking about that. Although, some sort of combination between the first and third probably wouldn't be too bad :) Since the third one is wet and would look different dry.
Well, I guess I'll try going into the mens somewhere. I got caught once going into one when I was about 8, so it makes me a little apprehensive. Maybe I'll just beg a few of my guy friends to come along. Hehe
Anyway, thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Abraxas

Well, I guess I'll try going into the mens somewhere. I got caught once going into one when I was about 8, so it makes me a little apprehensive. Maybe I'll just beg a few of my guy friends to come along.

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Go in, don't make eye contact or try to start a conversation and use a stall. Lot's of men do, either through need or shyness. I use a stall nearly all the time as my PA makes standing a risky and often messy business.

Be prepared to skip a stall if it's messy and find a clean one. Again perfectly normal behaviour.

One big NO NO. Men never go to the loo together. Even if you're in a group outside you'll go to the loo individually, avoiding and ignoring each other in the loo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Abraxas

Well, I've got a friend coming in from Chicago who knows all about my being TV. I'm open to all my friends and my mum and younger brother (who doesn't really get the whole thing). I was going to take her around town, for fun, and then to an amusement park. I was hoping that this could be my sort of ground- breaking, "trying to pass as a bloke" experience. I've not shaved my legs for awhile now (being careful not to let my family see as that would weird them out) and by the time the 16th of July (our planned date for this adventure) comes around it should look pretty good. I've also just cut my hair and am doing fairly well with binding. And have got a great stuffer. I was even going to put in a little hint of some sideburns.
I'm just not sure that I can pass completely. I mean, my voice is fairly deep but I'm just not sure if I look "blokey" enough. I'm going to post some pictures, can you tell me if you think I'll pass? Please? And if not, what could I do that would help!?!?

Also, I'm very nervous about going into the mens bathroom (we'll be there all day and I drink a lot of liquids so I'm sure I'll have to go). I mean, I can't be passing as a bloke and then go into the ladies'. And if I don't completely pass I don't want to get hassled in the mens. Plus, I'm not 100% confident about my standing urinary device. I wouldn't want to use a urinal so I'd have to use a stall, probably. And I've got no male friends coming with me that would sort of defend me... Or, you know, go in with me so it'd look more like I was just one of the guys. So, does anybody have any advice for me in this case? Should I just duck into a stall and do my business? Or should I try and sneak into the ladies? Find a bush? What do I do?!?!

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I also go with the first pic as well. You have that kinda rocker look that I see lots of guys sportin' now. Even shorter hair might help you a little more, but your hair is your hair. Also if you are going to try out sideburns, you should probably find a mascara that matches your hair. Barely brush it up on your peach fuzz. Try not to get the skin. If you want to try gluin' the stuff on...get spirit gum and take your time getting the short pieces of hair on. Here's another thing I've learned...try not to smile at all. I know I look pretty guyish, but when I smile..my girlfriend says it might give me away. Good thing on not shaving your legs, that should definitely help you if you wear shorts. Plus there are those jock like guys that play ball that shave their legs...so I wouldn't worry too much about it. Consider wearing pants if you feel that uncomfy about it. Binding...I've found a pretty good binder you might want to buy when you have the money....

http://www.morrisdesigns.com/gynecomastia-vest.htm

I go into the men's room all the time. I have never been in a ladies room when I dress like a male. I always hit up the stalls as opposed to urinals. I haven't gotten one of those pissin' peckers so I don't have that option. I always make sure the coast is clear personally and take the largest stall. It's a rare thing that a guy is goin' to look at what you are doin'. Hold your head up high, act like it's a totally natural thing to you. I've even walked around with a total hardass look and it works for me. I wouldn't advise you sneak into the ladies room if you are lookin' to pass yourself off. There's always that off chance someone might see you.

Also..how tall are you? You might want to consider brushin' up on some small things like getting bigger boots for your manly self...preferably with steel toes so it doesn't do that whole crease in the toe. What I do to make my foot feel comfy is put a cheap pump shoe inside and slip my foot inside. It's pretty damn secure.

I have other passin' tips...but I can't think of them all off the top of my head. I'll have to get back to you on that.

Thanks very much :)
(I'll keep this brief as I've got a plane to catch)
I'm 5'9" and wear size 9 or 10 shoes. I wear arch supports in them, which adds about 3/4" to my height, plus the soles of the shoes (I generally wear dress boots with a 1 1/2- 2" sole at the heel). Always wear mens' shoes and it's worked fine for me.
I tried dying my sideburns with my mum's leftover dye but they turned out a bit light and I didn't wanna buy a whole bottle for just that. So when I dye my hair again, I'll do them, too.
Anyway, thanks for the tips and I'll check out the binder when I get back in 2 weeks. TTYL :-D
--Eddie (the name I'm going by now)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xsideburnsx

Here's another thing I've learned...try not to smile at all. I know I look pretty guyish, but when I smile..my girlfriend says it might give me away.

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It's so hard sometimes, since, at least for me, the most natural reaction is to smile when people refer to me as "sir". I wonder if there is a stereotype on how guys smile...

The vest looks cool. Thanks for the tip(s), xsideburnsx. :D

btw, does anyone know the systematic way to lower one's voice? Hilary Swank said in an interview that she went through certain training to lower it by an octave(?); and all the sites I've found on voice training are for making a guy's voice more feminine. Just keep practicing talking as low as possible?

Have fun, Eddie. :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gabriel

It's so hard sometimes, since, at least for me, the most natural reaction is to smile when people refer to me as "sir". I wonder if there is a stereotype on how guys smile...

The vest looks cool. Thanks for the tip(s), xsideburnsx. :D

btw, does anyone know the systematic way to lower one's voice? Hilary Swank said in an interview that she went through certain training to lower it by an octave(?); and all the sites I've found on voice training are for making a guy's voice more feminine. Just keep practicing talking as low as possible?

Have fun, Eddie. :cool:

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I know you are happy when someone calls you sir, but most guys don't smile when they are called that. It's an everyday thing for them. If people look at you, what might be in their heads is "Why is he smilin?"...there's a possibility of doubts that might go in their heads. Plus there are always people that have doubts...no matter what you do. If you are in a fun place havin' fun, maybe a small smirk with no teeth. A total full on smile brings out that girl. I have a baby face and I would say I have a pretty nice smile when I do smile, but it in no way makes me look manly. Girls have soft smooth faces and a smile definitely makes it look softer. My girl always has to nudge me at fun places with "Stop smilin' so much...you look very girly"...It always puts me in a mood afterwards...so I guess that helps me with my little hardass look.

I'm not so sure on how I lowered my voice. I never took any classes for it or anything. I think after years of living my life as a male, being surrounded by men...I guess it came natural? Not sure...cause when I have to talk like a girl (for work only)...I have a completely girl voice. When I meet new people..I use my male voice and no one has ever accused me of trying too hard. Voice classes could definitely help if you have the money for it. If not, just practice I guess.

Fantabbo!
My voice isn't too high, but... Not too low either. I've been practising making my singing voice lower and that's worked for me. If I can sing lower then obviously I can speak a bit lower as well.
The only thing is that if I were to sing it would give me completely away. You can't fake a manly singing voice, and I'm a musician so it's gonna be really tough in that respect.

But to sing lower (which is easier because you can actually tell what the relative pitch is) I just put on CDs with songs that were a bit too low for me (David Bowie, Billy Joel, etc.) and tried my damndest to sing the low notes as loud as I could (your voice goes quieter the lower it gets), and did it every single day. I drive a lot for work so it was easy to just sing away in the car.

I've always been able to sing fairly low, to about a bass E without hardly any trouble at all. But I did have a bit of difficulty hitting a D and C. Now I can hit them pretty regularly without too much strain (be careful not to damage your voice, eh?) I've been able to get down to a Bb (and on days where I went to a concert or sports match the day before and screamed a lot I've actually got down to an F below bass C.)
I find that if I'm having a low voice day and take advantage of it it helps. If I stay up really late at night the voice goes deeper so I sing as much as I can late at night and it helps.
But if you're not a singer, I don't know how to help you :)

And, I did have some fun. Went parasailing and jetskiing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Abraxas

Fantabbo!
My voice isn't too high, but... Not too low either. I've been practising making my singing voice lower and that's worked for me. If I can sing lower then obviously I can speak a bit lower as well.
The only thing is that if I were to sing it would give me completely away. You can't fake a manly singing voice, and I'm a musician so it's gonna be really tough in that respect.

But to sing lower (which is easier because you can actually tell what the relative pitch is) I just put on CDs with songs that were a bit too low for me (David Bowie, Billy Joel, etc.) and tried my damndest to sing the low notes as loud as I could (your voice goes quieter the lower it gets), and did it every single day. I drive a lot for work so it was easy to just sing away in the car.

I've always been able to sing fairly low, to about a bass E without hardly any trouble at all. But I did have a bit of difficulty hitting a D and C. Now I can hit them pretty regularly without too much strain (be careful not to damage your voice, eh?) I've been able to get down to a Bb (and on days where I went to a concert or sports match the day before and screamed a lot I've actually got down to an F below bass C.)
I find that if I'm having a low voice day and take advantage of it it helps. If I stay up really late at night the voice goes deeper so I sing as much as I can late at night and it helps.
But if you're not a singer, I don't know how to help you :)

And, I did have some fun. Went parasailing and jetskiing.

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So the trip was an overall success? Did you end up 'going all out' after all?

And I think I'm going to work harder on getting a deeper voice then I already have. It can't hurt. I sing fairly often to very gruff sounding singers so that helps me. I hope you can get your voice down pretty deep as well. Good luck with that.

Well, on this last trip I was with my grandma, so couldn't really go all- out as every time we left the house I was with her. But I bought a suit, got a haircut... Ya know.
Thanks for the wishes. Best of luck to you as well. :)
I'll be going to EddieFest in Oct. It's a tribute to my favourite comedian, Eddie Izzard, and it's a fan- sponsored event. Eddie ie a TV so all his fans are really open. There's tons of people of alternative sexualities and they all know about me, so I can do what I want.
There's also an Eddie- inspired costume contest, where we'll all dress like him. So I'll be in a miniskirt and corset. Eep. It'll be fun though... If I ever put on a dress I tend to feel like a guy in drag. Fun stuff, ey?
So maybe I'll be able to go all out during that time. I'm thinking of getting my hair even shorter, but I'll live with it for now, just to see how I like it. But ya know, it's only hair and it'll grow back if I don't like it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Abraxas

There's also an Eddie- inspired costume contest, where we'll all dress like him.

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Awesome. Can't wait to see the pictures (if you want to share :D ).

Also, thanks for the "voice training" suggestion. I'm not a singer, but I sing along with songs while driving too. There are a few low-key songs that I can almost completely follow without reaching a period of silence in the middle, but somehow it doesn't translate naturally into normal speech. I'll work on it...

I posted some pictures on the MTF forum, I think... Don't remember where. They were the "dress rehersal" pics for EddieFest. Mini skirt, fishnets, white shirt, and boots.
I looked pretty hot, and it pissed me off. Why can't I look that good as a bloke??? :D
But after the actual event, of course I'll post pics. And some blokey ones as well (I should get them scanned soon).

CLARISSA IS RIGHT - SORRY, WRONG THREAD!

Thanks :)

And... I don't smile in pics, as a general rule, unless someone's making me laugh in the background.

I'd say the first pic looks good!

And..... just an idea, when you go to the mens room, just go right into the stall, close the door and "flush" as you "Go" so anyone else does not realize that you had to squat. The flush will mask the noise. You can also hang around outside the bathroom, at a slight distance, and monitor the traffic so you can enter, perhaps when noboby is in there. Maybe you can find one like at a gas station, where it is a single occupancy and you can lock the door when you are inside.

Please let us know how it goes!

Cindy

Abraxas,

The first photo was really good (even if I am a few months behind schedule!).

And the advice about going into the men's room is also all spot on. Never go in pairs, try not to make eye contact. If someone acknowledges you, a general inclination of the head is enough.

Also, I know a lot of guys prefer the stalls to urinals for any reason anyway. Just if they look gross, then normal rules apply :D.

Think aloof when it comes to acting like a guy. Don't owe anybody anything kind of stance to the world :). I think most people tend to go on the old WYSIWYG approach to people unless you do something that seems strange. For me to go to the shopping mall in ultra high heels and mini skirt will definitely have people wondering. I'll probably pull it off a whole lot better in jeans! So always be appropriately dressed. The advantage with being a guy is that the range is fairly straight forward. Jeans and a shirt will cover almost any occasion! :)

Good luck and post more photos. You look and sound like a great bloke!

Love,
Vicky

If this whole issue is about using the loo, i don't see the big deal. Not once in my life have i had a problem using the ladies' room as a guy or in femme; nor have a had any problems using the mens' room in femme. People just really don't seem to care about it these days, and i live in the 'bible belt' even. It's all just semantics.
The sole key is in two words:
BE COMFORTABLE

prince alberts can occassionally make for a mess at a urinal if you're not careful so if you do leave a mess or spray something else unintentionally you can say you have one and blame it on that if someone asks, (which no one will ever ask).

Thanks a lot, Amy and everybody :)
I know it probably won't be a problem, but it's just the nerves that gets me. I'd like to go in a mens', at least for the first time in daytime, with a guy I know somewhat nearby. If not in the bathroom (not going in together, but him first and then myself following in a few seconds later), then at least waiting outside the door in case something bad happens. And I definitely have to be comfortable with my device first! I've gotten a new one from mangoproducts.net which is quite a bit better than my old one, and I've almost never had a problem.
I figure at least the first few times I go in, I'll use a stall.

The problem I have is that, while I'm sort of "out" to my family, they have no idea of my desires to actually pass as male and also have no idea of my penis. So if I'm out with them, I can't go in. I'd have to visit the womens' if I were to go.
My friends are more or less urging me to just get it over with, but my one friend, who I'm usually out with when I go out, is not exactly subtle. She'll say rather loudly "Just go in, stupid girl". And that would completely blow my cover. She cannot seem to be subtle or consider me as a guy in public.
And my guy friends don't want to get involved at all. It'll happen, but as yet I've only been in the mens' very late at night when I was positive there'd be nobody around, and even then I used a stall.

Abraxas, I am definitely rooting for you! If I was closer, I would say let's go! :)

Good luck!

Vicky

Thanks :)
I'll be in Chicago next month, and then Cleveland, and will have tons of friends there for support. So maybe it'll happen then. :)

[size=3]Eddie...[/size]
I'm backing you up, too! It's great that you are sharing this with us... that takes a lot of courage and yet shows empathy for the whole TG community.

I can relate to your anxiety... since I spent most of my younger life trying to "act" like a regular guy, too... learning the do's and don'ts of manhood. Luckily, I grew up in the sixties when being radical and anti-establishment was cool, and you could step out of bounds occasionally and not get the crap kicked out of you! LOL>>> :rolleyes: And... I still don't use the urinal unless I absolutely have to... mostly because I'm wearing lingerie and don't want anything "pink" showing while I'm standing there. (Hummm... that sounds funny! I meant my panties!!!)

Anyway... I joined the Eddie Izzard fan club. Thanks for the link!

Take care and have fun... and if you need any help with the guy stuff... I'm actually better at that then the femme thing! :o
[size=3]---Jen---------[/size]

Thanks very much!
Very groovy you joined with Eddie Izzard-- he's a fantastic guy and a big inspiration to a lot of people in the TG community.
I've still got loads more questions-- mostly about testosterone stuff. I've made a new thread if you could check it out-- you may well not know anything, but maybe you can help with some stuff. Anything having to do with passing.

It seems that most guys now tend to be more aggressive and willing to fight. I'm not a good fighter and if I got into an altercation I'd get flattened. I've gotten into a few fights when I was younger and also got caught going into a mens' loo, so I'm very nervous about being caught.
I'm wondering if there are any makeup techniques that would make me look more angular, with a bigger jaw, as my face is round, and (as my grandmother says-- and I hate that she says it) delicate- looking. I'd like to look like I'm not wearing any makeup though, as most guys don't.

What I'd really love to look like is one of the 80s metal heads-- boys who look like girls. Angular and kind of pretty in a handsome way. Wiry but muscular. Only with short hair, as long hair makes me definitely look like a girl. Or, actually, I wouldn't mind looking like a male TV maybe. A guy wearing makeup. Or something. How can I get that effect?
Thanks,
--Eddie