i just unkowningly fail being a male test!!

At work... I was taking my 4 hour drivers training refresher class this morning.. Ya got to be safe ya know!! And half way through the class.. We were talking about safety zones... And the instructor.. A cute blonde girl says to me... Sir, can you step up here to the front of the class... Sure.... About 50 of my coworkers in the class..

So I walk up and we meet by the podium... "What's your name". Zarren. (Close enough! Lol). "Ok Zarren.. Shake my hand...". So I walk up close to her... And put my left arm around her and onto her sholder... (Were both facing the class) And with my right hand shake her hand..... And she looked at me and said "hmmmmmm... Ok that didn't work". What didn't work??

And she points to another coworker and saiys "what's your name". Jim... Ok shake my hand and Jim jumps up and grabs her hand and shakes it... Then the instructor says "anyone notice the differnece here?". Ahhhh. I'm cuter than Jim? Just kidding. I didn't really say that.. Lol.

Noooo..... Then she goes on to explain that men typically shake someones hand and then take a step back... Keeping a zone of safety around them.. Where as women get close and hug and touch each other.... So then she looks at me and says.... "I don't know about you, Zarren" and the class bursts out laughing...

Obviously my Dad never taught me about this one step back rule!!! I can't even pass as a guy any more... So now everyone at work knows I'm not a guy??? Ohh well... I'm still cuter than Jim!! Hahahaha

It is not about anything other than "comfort" zones and I like your comfortable one too. Us Europeans you know..

Karen: My dad taught me(?) to to look them in the eye, snear, then see who could break bones first:straightface:

I don't think that rule is accurate. It is more of a personality or familiarity thing. My wife is more sociable and I am more shy. In fact, she first spoke to me and I had been watching her when we first met. She wasn't interested in me, but she was being friendly to everyone. (We met at a car show.)

Shaking hands is often done for business, meeting new people or seeing people you haven't seen in a while. Men normally are more likely to shake hands with other men, but women are more likely to hug other women. As for people of the opposite sex, if either one is interested, perhaps a hug can occur. I certainly prefer to hug pretty ladies!

I do hug family at weddings, funerals and other special occasions. That includes men, but normally they initiate it. I like to hug my wife, but I don't normally hug everyone I meet or know. The "personal space" issue can be complicated and different for each person as they have different comfort levels.

My wife is more likely to initiate a handshake but not a hug. She is very business-oriented and friendly, but she was not raised in a high-hug environment. She will initiate hugs with me since we are married. And our son who would initiate hugs. Our son is quite friendly and will introduce himself, shake hands with people he meets and hugs relatives without anyone requesting him to do so. He was raised to be friendly and not shy like me and has more confidence than I have.

I thought you were going to discuss the grip of the handshake, how many shakes, if you place the other hand over the handshake or any other variations. I have had people shake my hand, pull me towards them and then hug me. That normally happens at weddings as I try to simply shake hands with other men. My father was not a good father, so maybe I don't find it appealing to hug men.

Don't think your handshake makes you any more or less a man, unless you flip your wrist and do something "over the top". Ha ha. You probably tipped off the person with tweezed eyebrows, soft skin, nice perfume or something else. Now I will let you worry about THAT! Ha ha.

Lol... I'm not worried... Most of the 550 people in this building probably suspect I'm a bit different from your atypical male... And I do a lot of hugging.. with friends and coworkers alike...

And I did just put on some flowery face lotion... And I plucked my eye brows last night... Pink tie.... Dark knee high nylons... Light coat of mascara... :).

Thank God you didn't curtsy !!!


Emily Ann

What you didn't do the cheek kissy thing, muah, muah!

The comfort zone is a very real thing and aggressive men exploit it to their advantage.

A few years ago I watched an engineering manager from another group bully one of the guys in my group in a hallway discussion. The manager was smaller than the guy, but kept asseting himself by leaning forward a few inches closer than would be normal. My guy kept taking a half step backward each time, and was yielding any sort of technical foothold each time.

In that my guy was right and that I don't like bullies, I inserted myself into the conversation and started arguing my engineer's point for him. Now it is important to remember that I played outside line in small college football, and still carry most of the bulk (It makes it soo hard to find airy and frothy summer things :heehee:) in guy mode. I waited for him to lean into me to make his point and as he started I stepped 3 inches closer to him. He jumped back a foot, started mumbling, conceded my guy's point, and scurried away.

Being a good manager, I explained to the young guy what just happened and he spread it around the group. The team was much more effective after that.

BTW a few weeks later one of the guys tried tried the step-closer gambit against me. I saw it coming and hugged him, saying "aww I'm so proud of you!". They never tried that with me again.:devil:

-jj

Emily.....knowing Karen like we do, I bet she drop her hanky but the other guys just walked all over it.

Are those sexist demonstrations not a thing of the past? Gawd! These people who do training seem to be the last ones to clue in to the sexual discrimination training. She should have made her point without using gender references. Anyway... glad you felt good about it.

The only effective way to deal with a workplace bully is to have someone else support you and confront the bully and make it public each time it happens. Bullys have no place at work, the sad part is their abuse can go wrong in so many ways and make the workplace a living hell for many people.

Karren, you are probably cuter then your instructor! If you failed the "male" test because of the way you shake hands, then I suspect a lot of us would also fail. I shake hands with a man or woman the same way you did. I am a "hugger" or a "toucher," and always have been. My late wife loved it, and so do all the other ladies in my life. If that makes me less of a man, well why do you think I wear panties?

Sissy/Stephanie

Lady on the outside, but man underneath!

It's an American Thing! people in The U.S. are very uncomfortable with people encroaching beyond their safe zone. In Nursing School they described that zone as somewhere between 24 and 36 inches. The only time we feel comfortable with the rule being broken is during times of intimacy, and so we subconsciously think that anyone violating "The Zone," is trying to be intimate.

In Europe, and other places; there is no such rule. You see people holding hands, arms wrapped around one another, and no one thinks anything about it. And, nobody is threatened!

In The U.S. we live in a very uptight society! Even when males shake hands, (and some females) we have to immediately reestablish the rules of conduct. Gosh, wouldn't it be scary if we should ever show any feelings? Obviously, we are very uptight and anal-retentive. Maybe we need to work on that problem?

Peace and Love, Joanie

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jenniferj

The comfort zone is a very real thing and aggressive men exploit it to their advantage.

A few years ago I watched an engineering manager from another group bully one of the guys in my group in a hallway discussion. The manager was smaller than the guy, but kept asseting himself by leaning forward a few inches closer than would be normal. My guy kept taking a half step backward each time, and was yielding any sort of technical foothold each time.

In that my guy was right and that I don't like bullies, I inserted myself into the conversation and started arguing my engineer's point for him. Now it is important to remember that I played outside line in small college football, and still carry most of the bulk (It makes it soo hard to find airy and frothy summer things :heehee:) in guy mode. I waited for him to lean into me to make his point and as he started I stepped 3 inches closer to him. He jumped back a foot, started mumbling, conceded my guy's point, and scurried away.

Being a good manager, I explained to the young guy what just happened and he spread it around the group. The team was much more effective after that.

BTW a few weeks later one of the guys tried tried the step-closer gambit against me. I saw it coming and hugged him, saying "aww I'm so proud of you!". They never tried that with me again.:devil:

-jj

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I am exactly the same way you are... Played some football (many years ago) and still carry the size (6 ft tall 225 lbs, size 44 chest, etc..) I can often be "intimidating" without having to do the encroaching thing though. Sometimes it works in my favor, sometimes it doesn't.

The point is, here in the states, most people have what is classified as our "Personal Space", that is the area around our bodies we ONLY allow those we feel comfortable with to enter. When someone enters that area without our "permission", it triggers the standard "fight or flight" aspect of human nature. Obviously, we cannot get into the FIGHT aspect in the work place, so we can either back off or push back ourselves. Sometimes people with low self esteem cannot push back as they have never done so.

In Karren's post, she talks about how a man or woman shakes hands. Usually a man is raised to have a firm handshake, while women are raised to offer just the fingertips in a frail, diminutive manner. I say try to brake the bones.

Kandis:love:rose2:

WE never get the pretty little girlie, girl to envy and be a respectful atudent here at my office...

just a bunch of hard tails...


can I come up there to you for a class...:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karren Hutton

Most of the 550 people in this building probably suspect I'm a bit different from your atypical male...

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You might want to read that again, Karren :heehee:

My wife has a firmer handshake than many guys I know. It is not a bone-breaker, but it is very confident. There are actually classes for business people to learn the proper handshake. When she was in college, they analyzed handshakes. She could distinguish leaders from followers! Scary.

She could do a different handshake for nonbusiness situations. A gentleman may take her hand as if to offer a kiss or ask her to dance. She is good at reading people. She could reach out and let a guy take her hand in this case. She doesn't lead here.

Being a southern gentleman, I was taught two ways of shaking hands. One way for a man and the other for a woman.
For a man. Tight grip, look themin the eye, pump 2-3 times, stand back, and let go.
For a woman. Walk up, hug, kiss on cheek, stand back, while gently holding hand, release.

I failed the male test (and continue to fail it) in several ways without even noticing until somebody points it out. None of the 'failures' are anything I've done on purpose, they are just mannerisms that I have that are usually 'questionable'.

The one I got the most grief over was in highschool when it was pointed out to me that I carried my books like a girl. Instead of hanging my arm down at my side with the books against my hip, I wouldhold the pile of books in front of me, against my chest. I never even realized the boy/girl difference with this until it was pointed out to me.

Next, my hair. I don't really know if there is any truth to it, but I was told at one point that when girls part their hair, it is done on one side of the head. Boys on the other. Sure enough, after it was pointed out to me, every single boy I noticed from then on had his hair parted on the opposite side as mine, with the girls on the same side.

Thirdly, when I cross my legs I was often accused in school of doing it 'like a girl' (and still do).

Finally, something completely beyond my control. People over a certain age will remember having to get a polio vaccine when a child. It leaves a small scar on your shoulder if it doesn't heal properly. For some strange reason I don't understand, at least in this area, girls were given the vaccine on their RIGHT shoulder, boys the left. Guess which shoulder MY vaccine scar is on?

We won't get into the hole 'Pee standing up or sitting down' thing.

There are a few EPIC failures of the test that I catch myself doing once in a while, but haven't been caught at yet. For instance, reaching to 'smooth' my skirt under my as I sit by habit, even though I am wearing pants (and in public!), getting into the car like a woman if I'm not paying attention (sit first, then swing the feet in) if I've been dressed very recently, or feeling a wrinkle or something in the shoulder area of my shirt, so reaching up to adjust my bra strap before remembering that I don't have one on!

I flunk the male test again with every do-over. I like to think that it is because I think for myself and do what I want to do the way I want to do it, not based on some arbitrary set of boy/girl rules.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karren Hutton

Lol... I'm not worried... Most of the 550 people in this building probably suspect I'm a bit different from your atypical male... And I do a lot of hugging.. with friends and coworkers alike...

And I did just put on some flowery face lotion... And I plucked my eye brows last night... Pink tie.... Dark knee high nylons... Light coat of mascara... :).

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Karren: I don't belive you can be a atypical male any more with all the lady like pictures you have thumbnailed in your posts, If I worked in your building I'd have you pegged as a woman for sure. But I don't advertise things like that either. your underside is save with me.

Ive taken classes on human behavior, and how it's alledged to be ingrained in certain genders, race, regions as well as ethnicity. But in the end, there is always someone who's differant from the norm...............................Karren. :heehee: Aw you know I love ya Kiddo!

I suspect that many of us would "fail" these tests because of who we are. Being a man or woman isn't the issue as I see it, being your own person is.:)

I've never stepped back after shaking hands. OF course I avoid shaking hands with men because of the nails. The earrings don't help.

I've traveled all over the world. That safety zone is different wherever u go. In Japan, there is none!

Hah! So in the end it's the little things that catch you up!

Please turn in your man card and pick up your purse and heels :)

I too am a large man and can be intimidating even though I make no attempt to be unless my size would help defuse a tense situation. When shaking hands, I give a firm but not competively painful handshake and then stand my ground at arms length. The reason has noting to do with "personal space" for me, it's just easier to focus on someone who isn't 5 inches from my nose.

I do find however that when I am in en femme mode I do tend to have a much gentler handshake but still not a "finger-tipper" That bugs me in either mode.

I would say it's an American man-man thing. With a man and a woman, the space closes considerably for the man but I bet it widens with a woman, therefore maintaining the status quo! LOL.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sterling12

It's an American Thing! people in The U.S. are very uncomfortable with people encroaching beyond their safe zone. In Nursing School they described that zone as somewhere between 24 and 36 inches. The only time we feel comfortable with the rule being broken is during times of intimacy, and so we subconsciously think that anyone violating "The Zone," is trying to be intimate.

In Europe, and other places; there is no such rule. You see people holding hands, arms wrapped around one another, and no one thinks anything about it. And, nobody is threatened!

In The U.S. we live in a very uptight society! Even when males shake hands, (and some females) we have to immediately reestablish the rules of conduct. Gosh, wouldn't it be scary if we should ever show any feelings? Obviously, we are very uptight and anal-retentive. Maybe we need to work on that problem?

Peace and Love, Joanie

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Oh these fictional rules are just too silly & complicated. How about we just be human.:)
( & for the record, that was a very odd way for her to make a point about driving )

This thread reminds me of the question "What does a gentleman do standing up, a lady does sitting down and a dog does on three legs?" Shakes hands! What were you thinking? LOL
Enjoy life, Chari

KARREN that just go's to show you are MASTERING the best of both worlds

:hugs: susie

I guess I missed that one in male training 101! I was to busy in Female Training 100 on that day of class.

Karen, You only failed the test, that's all. Lady, you're good to go.:thumbsup:

THis is the first time I have ever heard of the one step back scenario. When I shake someones hand I prefer a nice firm grip but not overdone. I do not like the 'limp wet rag' type nor the 'bone crusher' handshake. For the most part I think women are better at it than men.

My Dad taught me that a firm handshake and a sharp look in the eye were what's best. But he also told me that a simple "Hi how ya doin'" was OK sometimes and that it wasn't always nescesary to shake hands. My Mom and Dad both told me that it's better manners to shake hands with females than to hug and so forth,especially if you don't know them very well. But I can't help it. My nature is very girlish and much of the time I hug my female freinds and my CD freinds. But I am talking now about GG's and CD's who I've known for awhile. Where I give myself away and sometimes fail the male test is that when being introduced to someone I give with kind of a semi-circle wave to the side and I say "How ya Doin'" or "How Are Ya". A freind of mine tells me that comes across as kind of sissified.

That's it. No more male clothing at work. The truth is finally out, so you might as well dress properly. OBTW, just be sure you stay out of the mines.

I was always taught to shake someone's hand with quite a firm grip.. Shows you care about what you're doing.

The amount of new people we get in at work at the moment i'm getting all sorts of different handshakes, limp, soft, wet, then sometimes even not at all.
You can sort of pick someone by the way he shakes your hand. And i never knew about the shake and step back thing..

I was out with about 10 friends (men & women) and two of them would easily qualify as macho homophobes. Now hadn't seen this groups of friends for sometime and now realize why I hadn't missed those two. when the coffee was served (small china cups) i apparently could find room around the cup for my pinky so I pointed it out in a dainty fashion (I didn't realize this until it was noted by thingone and thingtwo). They had a good laugh at my expense and i did the only thing that came to mind, i kept drinking my coffee with my pinky sticking out.
Sarasometimes

Aw....Karen your just being European :)

Come to think of it, we dont step back in here Blighty just smile lean in, shake, lean out, the distance doesnt change......mind up there the old shouting the insult across the pub greeting.......:)

Karren -- Hug, hug, kiss, kiss.

Seriously, I live in a community with a lot of ethnic people (I don't want to mention the nationally for fear of offending someone who either lives there or whose ancestors came from this country unified by Garibaldi). Anyway, they are a bunch of hugging, kiss, kiss people whenever you greet them (the women). That's one reason I have to be careful where and when I wear a bra en drab.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fab Karen

( & for the record, that was a very odd way for her to make a point about driving )

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I was wondering how the workplace enforcing gender stereotypes was part of a driving safety course too.

HR would be having to explain that one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karren Hutton

Lol... I'm not worried... Most of the 550 people in this building probably suspect I'm a bit different from your atypical male... And I do a lot of hugging.. with friends and coworkers alike...

And I did just put on some flowery face lotion... And I plucked my eye brows last night... Pink tie.... Dark knee high nylons... Light coat of mascara....

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"Zee deprogramming ist VERKING!!!!" said Dr. Strangelove...