Unreasonable intolerance

I was at lunch the other day with a friend. When I first walked into the restraunt, I saw a lady who appeared to be a transsexual or transgender person. My friend is certainly not what you would call tolerant. He frequently uses expressions that could be considered rude and offensive. I got there first so I sat where I was looking towards this TS lady. He sat with his back to her. I was pleased to see that the staff at the restraunt seem to treat her like any other customer. And I didn't notice any negative responses from the other customers. When she got ready to leave she happened to walk right behind me. My friend immediately sat back in his chair and got this "I hate you and I want to kick your ass" look on his face. If looks could kill, she would have been dead. I started to sense that he might actually do something stupid so I tried to draw his attention away by repeatedly calling his name and asking him the same question and he finally turned attention toward me and away from her. She left but he turned one more time to look at her. He shook his head in disgust and continued our previous conversation like nothing happened. He never said anything about her.

This guy is really a pretty nice guy for the most part and he has been a friend of mine for at least 30 years. I just can't understand that level of hatred to someone who has never done anything to hurt you. I wonder how he would react if he found out about me? We probably wouldn't be eating lunch together anymore.

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Originally Posted by Chiana

This guy is really a pretty nice guy for the most part and he has been a friend of mine for at least 30 years. I just can't understand that level of hatred to someone who has never done anything to hurt you. I wonder how he would react if he found out about me? We probably wouldn't be eating lunch together anymore.

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Did you tell him something about your feelings towards his untolerant attitude or not ?

If not, do you think you are really "friends" ? Wouldn't the word "colleague" be more appropriate ?

Hugs

Nadia

Some folks have such a hatred towards the GLBT community that it sickens me. My bosses at work are SO BAD in that aspect,I cringe at remarks they make.

Why on earth would you want to be friends with someone like that?

He needs to hear this: "I just can't understand that level of hatred to someone who has never done anything to hurt you."

He shouldn't have his boorish, ignorant behaviour encouraged or condoned.

Personally I've long since cut people like that out of my life, but seeing as you haven't maybe you should ask him one day why he thinks it's okay to be such a jerk.

People like that are not secure in their own world and think everyone should who they want them to be.

There are many people in the world who are twisted by hate and hurt for others.
Really they should have our pity, they live in the gloom away from the light.

- I felt fear and anger, because I was not understanding.

- but I learnt compassion and love and knew who I was.....

Darlene

I've come across a few people like that but I avoid them like the plague.

Chiana,

While I'd love to just say "kick him to the curb," a 30 year relationship is not an easy thing to toss aside. But, you'll probably find you'll find excuses to not hang out.

Here come all the "How could you be friends with..." posts. Look, I have numerous friends who are intolerant of transgenderism. It's not so much a hatred as it is an ignorance. My own brother is intolerant of the transgendered, and I love him very much. They know no better because it's a path they've never walked. It's a learned intolerance, not an inherent one. They just don't know any better.

It's better to nurture friendships, knowing that your tolerance of their shortcomings is the higher road.

I agree with Sedona and TgMarla - you don't just throw away a good friendship because your friend has shortcomings and flaws. We ALL have our flaws - it just happens that one of this friends flaws is at the intersection of one of your sensitive spots. lol
If you ask me, and I realise you didn't, it is just this sort of situation that has the potential for a good thing to happen. The friend freaked - you didn't. Simply by your example you may have done good.

Well the world and attitudes are changing. Your friend is going to find himself at odds with the rest of the world in the very near future.

Only last week I attended a training course provided by the company I work for, which made it clear that all types of diversity are protected by law and any form of discrimination will not be tollerated.

...and I had a quick check of the list - and Transgender is in there too ! :)

Yes the hatred is still out there. I know people who are exactly that way. Be careful.

Chiana, what I didn't get from your post was any indication that your companion did or said anything unpleasant. And I suppose a certain amount of distaste is OK. We're not obliged to like everybody.
Besides that, the expression on a person's face is not a totally reliable guide to what's going on inside. Are you possibly projecting your own fears of intolerance here?
There is a lot of intolerance and hatred of anyone "different", but if you don't see it, don't imagine it.

Some people are just that way... My grandmother hated catholics. And italians!! As much as your friend hated Ts's.. I still loved her even if she did have flaws. And I have friends the same way.. That's just life.. Doesn't make it right but ya got to learn to live with it imho...

Amy
I think you have hit the nail on the head with that statement They are not secure in there world. I can remember making negative comments once before I was accepting of my cding. It was to let others know that I couldn't possibly be one of those. Now I would be more tempted to tell them that I am oneof those just to see their response,

good thread!We're not acceppted socially,your friend has no understanding of us and who we are.Whose to blame?Haven't a clue.Guess you'll find out if he's a real friend if he finds out and turns against you,or is that fair?its a complicated life sometimes!

What really grinds me about this kind of stuff is that there are TG people out there (Police, Firefighters, EMT's, Military, etc.) who put their lives on the line on a daily basis for the very people who are intolerant against them without a second thought or a moment's hesitation, not just because it's their job either but because they care. I'm wondering just how many intolerant people would refuse help from these folks if they knew up front they were TG. Not too many I would venture to say.:straightface:

So sorry, but this thread is just begging the question, "What is reasonable intolerance?" Is hatred of anyone who lives a different lifestyle ever reasonable?:straightface:

Holly as to intolerance ever being reasonable [SIZE="3"] NO[/SIZE].
Everyone is different should we exclude people who are bald, who are short, or who are fat. NO The fact is that there is no such thing as "being normal" we are all different and should all be treated with respect.

Chiana maybe this is a way to broach the subject with your friend by simply explaining that no-one is "normal" pick a point about your friend and yourself that are different and ask him if the two of you should we treated rudely because of your faults. He may then think about his behavior.

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Originally Posted by Holly

So sorry, but this thread is just begging the question, "What is reasonable intolerance?" Is hatred of anyone who lives a different lifestyle ever reasonable?:straightface:

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I think that some level of intolerance will always be part of our society, and should be "reasonable," to expect, and dealt with reasonably.

I have dark skin, I deal with a large cross section while on my job daily, and it's reasonable to assume that some of them are racists. What is reasonable is that those people act professionally in my presence, and treat me like any member of their "prefered" races. If they threaten me, treat me with discourtesy, or let their biases be known, that is unreasonable.

Many of us have biases, whether we want to admit them or not, the question is can we put those biases aside and deal rationally with people in our day to day lives?


I think that while it was shocking, Chiana's friend behaved in a reasonable manner. He was with a 30 year friend, only shot dirty looks (assuming no outsider was witness), and had the wherewithall to not address the CDer, or bring it up with Chiana's drab self. He could have done a lot of things to escalate things, but chose not to.

Sucks for Chiana, and I stand by what I said before that I would limit my exposure to this friend, but I'm sure he has many redeeming qualities that overshadow this brief gaffe (no pun intended).

Heck, just to play devil's advocate, maybe Chiana's friend was angry that the CDer had a too-long slip that was showing beneath her skirt?

This thread is similar to a conversation I had with my daughter when she was thirteen. During the discussion I asked her if she found out that one of her good friends was a lesbian; would she now, not like her? Her answer was that she couldn't be friends with someone like that.

I was probably asking the questions to get a feel for what would happen if she found out about me. She did find out about me when she was nineteen. I've never had anyone say such horrible things to or about me and/or about my wife. My two older daughters wondered if she was trying to break up our marriage. It took about four years before I felt very comfortable around her, we were very good friend before she found out.

If it would have been anyone else, instead of my daughter, we might not have ever talked again. For me it is difficult to understand why people could hate others so much.

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Originally Posted by Chiana

This guy is really a pretty nice guy for the most part and he has been a friend of mine for at least 30 years. I just can't understand that level of hatred to someone who has never done anything to hurt you. I wonder how he would react if he found out about me? We probably wouldn't be eating lunch together anymore.

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In some cases people ho have those attitudes are themselves struggling with there own identity so they express it as hate when secretly they are jealous that they did not get a chance to express themselves. In this case it could be not knowing or just plain hate! In fact every family has a LGBT person or persons in it.

If this person is truly a friend, then as a friend you should let them know that your were disturbed by the look on his face, and have an open conversation about it. As some else already mentioned, it's not always easy to know what a person is thinking just from their facial expression. For example, has it occurred to you that your friend may have been acting that way to impress you? Or, perhaps he is actually attracted to CD's, but felt embarrassed, and showed opposite behaviour to what he was actually thinking. Or, one of many other reasons, including the one you suspect.

You should discuss it, and let him know that you felt uncomfortable about in that situation, even if it is only to let him know that you don't appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by Salandra

What really grinds me about this kind of stuff is that there are TG people out there (Police, Firefighters, EMT's, Military, etc.) who put their lives on the line on a daily basis for the very people who are intolerant against them without a second thought or a moment's hesitation, not just because it's their job either but because they care.

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Reminds me of the movie "Crash"... people are complex!

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Originally Posted by Chiana

This guy is really a pretty nice guy for the most part

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He doesn't sound in any way like a "nice guy".

Pretty nice guy? Doesn't sound like it. Why are you friends with this person?

The world is not a perfect place by any means and we cannot expect everyone to be a model of tolerance. It's just not going to happen. I'm perfectly happy with who I am, but that doesn't mean that I have the expectation that everyone else will be. I think places like this exist so we can talk about the issues and feelings we have with others who will be accepting of this part of us that, perhaps, even our best friends just would not accept because they do not have to do so and have not, for the most part, been taught to do so. My children are very young and I have no plans to hide myself from them because I would like to encourage them to be who they are and accept everyone for who they are and make decisions about people based on their actions and not their attire. As I see it, as an atheist cross-dressing progressive, I try to be tolerant of the religious mainstream population when I could just as easily be nasty because their existence does not offend mine own. But I also understand that the people I am tolerant of most likely will not, at this moment in time, extend my the same courtesy. I am hoping that the world will evolve to the point that this will change. As my gay friends can get married now (best weddings ever - except for mine own!), I have hope.

I often wonder if they just act like that because they feel like they must in front of other people, a bit like saying i am a mans man .



joanne

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Originally Posted by joanne f

I often wonder if they just act like that because they feel like they must in front of other people, a bit like saying i am a mans man .

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Joanne, I'm sure that's a part of it. I'm sure we've all been in a crowd of guys and heard that group macho thing that happens when guys try to prove how masculine they are. I hear it from my students all the time and whenever that crap language comes into my Drama Room, I do my best to stomp it out. I remind that that my room is safe for people of all stripes and they need to learn to respect that other people are different and, especially in the theatre, embrace the differences that make us all unique and interesting. People who only like to be with people who are just like them are simply boring. They deserve each other.

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Originally Posted by Ruth

Chiana, what I didn't get from your post was any indication that your companion did or said anything unpleasant. And I suppose a certain amount of distaste is OK. We're not obliged to like everybody.
Besides that, the expression on a person's face is not a totally reliable guide to what's going on inside. Are you possibly projecting your own fears of intolerance here?
There is a lot of intolerance and hatred of anyone "different", but if you don't see it, don't imagine it.

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I'll go with Ruth's thoughts. Since he DID NOT openly express intolerance, nor do anything confrontational; I would have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

At that moment he might have bitten down on a bad tooth, might have been thinking about alimony payments, and we could name a million other things. I think until he genuinely proves his distaste, I would leave it alone. I would put my perceptions/personal feelings aside and just wait to see what happens. A friendship takes a long time to build, and it's very wasteful to throw it away.

But if you care to do it, you have a chance for a golden opportunity. Sometimes when people are confronted with reality, they can instantly change their thought processes. Ever been in a conversation with someone and as an example; say something derogatory about alcoholics or the whole process at AA. It's a real shock and usually instantly teaches you something, when that person responds; "Your just wrong about that, I've been in AA for 20 years and they saved my life."

I think you could do the same with a conversation about Transgenderism. It just might open your friend's eyes. I'll bet he likes you as a person, what he might learn about you might change his perceptions.

Peace and Love, Joanie

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Originally Posted by Suzy Harrison

Well the world and attitudes are changing.

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nothing changes in America when it comes to social tolerance.

This topic made me think about my own children. My oldest daughter (35yrs) has made some very intolerant remarks regarding TG persons. When she said them it hurt me. I didn't say anything. I tried to think back if i had ever taught her to think that way and couldnt remember that I did. I taught her to treat people how you would want to be treated. At least thats what I think I did. Society, the media and who knows what else molds us. I can remember putting my children on the school bus and thinking what are they learning on the way to school. As I get older I am becoming more intolerant of intolerant people.

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Originally Posted by TxKimberly

I agree with Sedona and TgMarla - you don't just throw away a good friendship because your friend has shortcomings and flaws.

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Amen!

Intolerance results from insecurity IMO. Would you abandon a friend because they were insecure about something else? Of course not. Obviously if your friend ever exhibits this hatred towards you it would be much different, but in the mean time I think what you did (trying to divert his attention) should be applauded. There are many people out there (not CD'ers of course ;) ) who would have done nothing to even attempt to intervene.

I agree with all that feel you cannot throw out a friendship on a single issue. If we do that we will soon the political polarizations of our society ... and that would be sad.

Try and teach your friend, gently, some tolerance. One of my best friends would freak out if he knew of my dressing. I do not know if he would stop speaking to me, but I think it is possible. So, slowly, I am trying to let him see a better way to view differences in people.

C.

Having spent most of my adult life in the military, I firmly believe that EVERYONE has a right to his or her opinion. I may not agree with , or think it is right, that opinion but it is they'rs. Just as everyone wears different clothing, everyone thinks differently. He may have had a negative experience. If that was my friend, I would ask if there was something wrong with the lunch/drink to engage the conversation. If he mentions the CD/TS state your thoughts and opinions.

We all have flaws, not a single person on this planet is perfect. I respect everyones right to express and have their own thoughts and opinions, no matter how wrong I think they might be.

Just throwing a little gas onto the fire. :cowdance:

The reason I say he is a good guy is that he is probably the hardest working guy I have ever known. He owns his own business and is fairly succesful. He devotes a lot of time to his wife, 2 sons and daughter. If you are his friend, he will do anything he can to help you. He has helped many of his employess when they had problems of all sorts, from personal to financial problems. He is extremely knowledgable on a surprising number subjects from fine art to finances to construction. Unfortunately, he seems to have gone through life with a chip on his shoulder. He was small for his age in school but he refused to back down from anyone which cost him a lot of ass whippings from the school bully until he earned the bully's respect and they became lifelong friends. He can be extremely opionated about numerous subjects which includes anything other than "normal" heterosexual behavior. I did not miss-read his behavior. When he saw this lady he put his utensils down, slid back in his chair and had his arms straight out with his hand sitting on the table. He quit talking in mid sentence, turned his head slightly sideways and stared at her out of the corner of his eyes. His jaw was tightly clenched. I would have intervened if he had tried to stand up or do anything else. But I succesfully got his attention and he let it go.

Maybe he is insecure. I wouldn't rule that out. I just know that I am glad that nothing really happened. I don't see us ever discussing sexual variations, but I know that I have managed to get him to alter some of his viewpoints about other subjects. I have him fooled because he says he respects my intelligence. So he does listen to me on occasion.

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Originally Posted by Chiana

My friend is certainly not what you would call tolerant. He frequently uses expressions that could be considered rude and offensive.

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You know this guy, I don't, but I have had 'friends' like him in the past and my own experience has taught me that I absolutely don't need and can't be, for my own health and safety, around people like this. They are usually so numb and full of seething hatred that you're just putting yourself on the line or else condoning what he does, says, and in the end thinks. But you know him better and could guage whether you think he's redeemable.

Personally with how you described him, if you told me he was letting me use his waterfront estate for a weekend I'd say 'no thanks'. It's behaviour like that, even comments, that cause heartache and danger for others. I have zero tolerance for it. I'm glad some of you do, although I do think not saying anything in the presence of rude and intolerant comments is de facto condoning it.

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This guy is really a pretty nice guy for the most part and he has been a friend of mine for at least 30 years. I just can't understand that level of hatred to someone who has never done anything to hurt you. I wonder how he would react if he found out about me? We probably wouldn't be eating lunch together anymore.

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If he's a nice guy he wouldn't be intolerant and make rude and offensive remarks.


Personally I think we excuse far too much of what we think is minor bad behaviour, which is just part of a continuum of hatred, intolerance, and discrimination, all stuff that we as a misunderstood and marginalized group are likely targets of.

Drop the guy off in the middle of a gay pride parade.

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Originally Posted by Chiana

The reason I say he is a good guy is that he is probably the hardest working guy I have ever known. He owns his own business and is fairly succesful. He devotes a lot of time to his wife, 2 sons and daughter. If you are his friend, he will do anything he can to help you. He has helped many of his employess when they had problems of all sorts, from personal to financial problems. He is extremely knowledgable on a surprising number subjects from fine art to finances to construction. Unfortunately, he seems to have gone through life with a chip on his shoulder. He was small for his age in school but he refused to back down from anyone which cost him a lot of ass whippings from the school bully until he earned the bully's respect and they became lifelong friends. He can be extremely opionated about numerous subjects which includes anything other than "normal" heterosexual behavior. I did not miss-read his behavior. When he saw this lady he put his utensils down, slid back in his chair and had his arms straight out with his hand sitting on the table. He quit talking in mid sentence, turned his head slightly sideways and stared at her out of the corner of his eyes. His jaw was tightly clenched. I would have intervened if he had tried to stand up or do anything else. But I succesfully got his attention and he let it go.

Maybe he is insecure. I wouldn't rule that out. I just know that I am glad that nothing really happened. I don't see us ever discussing sexual variations, but I know that I have managed to get him to alter some of his viewpoints about other subjects. I have him fooled because he says he respects my intelligence. So he does listen to me on occasion.

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So what did he say when you told him about your being TG or CD or however you ID yourself? All my real friends know who I am and embrace me and all my sisters out there or I don't bother with them.

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Originally Posted by ReginaS

So what did he say when you told him about your being TG or CD or however you ID yourself? All my real friends know who I am and embrace me and all my sisters out there or I don't bother with them.

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Like I said, I don't really see us talking about sexual variations. There is only one person IRL who knows about my interests. And he isn't that one person. I am amazed at those of you who have told your friends. I admire your courage. That just isn't me. It is not something I want to share with anyone except for my one very special GG firend.

It isn't really courage, Chiana. It's up to each of us to recognize what's important to us. For some of us we want our friends to know. For others there's no desire nor reason. That's okay too. There's lots of stuff we don't tell friends, and this is pretty private territory for lots of people.

FWI I've probably told about 20 people IRL about me and only 6 were men - two doctors, two brothers, and two friends of family who I never told directly.
My therapist agreed that telling men is much more problematic. None of the males I told (or my mom told :doh:) are what I would call macho. In fact quite the opposite.

Your pal sounds like someone who maybe it would be better to not tell if you want to be friends... unless he totally surprises you with acceptance. Some people are like that. From what you described, I doubt your friend is. But maybe loyalty trumps hatred for him. If it doesn't...eek.

There are some ways to get short sighted individuals to see things differently,when noting these disgusting looks by people in the past ,I've asked them"what happened were you offended,robbed or taken advantage of by someone transgender in the past"?No, they usually say.Then it's only because they are different that you harbor these pent up hateful feelings .... So if we walk them to a point in their own insecurity's they will hopefully see the negativity in their attitude.

I agree with the old saying "in medio stat virtus".
Either unreasonable intolerance or being unreasonably too much tolerant hurt as much, I mean.

To a certain extent it is a wise behaviour to "excuse" other people for their shortcomings. But there are to be limits. Or you will find yourself to excuse every behaviour, and to become very unwise.

Not to forget :
Who can't say nothing is the one who agrees.

Kisses

Nadia

What a great thread! Being a human being means we all have flaws.........being bigger then most means we can over look and forgive the flaws in others.

I loved the way Kimberly addressed it about flaws and sensativities intersecting.

I love this site! Thanks

Jenny

Chiana - your perception of his feelings is probably corret. Like others have pointed out, he didn't actually say or do anything. Lets give him credit for that much.

Gen

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Since he DID NOT openly express intolerance, nor do anything confrontational; I would have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

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