Fundamental Right Wingers

I read a post to a thread a few minutes ago and the post hinted that fundamentalist and right wingers were those that presented a wall for us CDrs to go out dressed. I took a little (very little I might add) offense to the statement because I'm a fundamentalist and steer heavily to the right myself! I know I'm not stopping anyone from going out dressed.

I think, instead of saying one or two groups are stopping us from going out dressed, that society in general looks down their noses at us. They have a dim view of us because most of them are only exposed to the segment of CDing that dresses outrageously flamboyant calling overt attention to themselves and the perverted acts of some that make headline news.

Those of us that are more on the conservative side need to try to make our style known and what we really are and over time change society's opinion of us and CDing in general. Also, I think part of our problem is ourselves and our own fear of going out dressed. A famous quote by Winston Churchill comes to my mind and that is, "All we have to fear is fear itself." I think fear is what stops most of us more than certain groups. What's your thoughts?

When you ally yourself with a group, you are responsible for the actions of that group.

Hey Vivian,

You did not say what type of fundamentalist you are. Jewish or Christian or Muslim or Pagan or ? I agree with you in general, although, the Christian religious right in the USA would likely take a very dim view of CD's and definitely of TS's. In fact, I believe there are some who think that such folks should be hospitalized at a minimum. They also believe that of gays etc... that level of intollerence is a big problem for many of us. It isn't that they look down at us, they are actively trying to ride the world of us. It is hard not to be threatened by that.

I do not think it is the flamboyent dress of some that creates the "wall" that we all experience at some point. Nor do I believe that if we all dressed conservatively but openly, that attitudes would change because of the conservative dress styles. I think they would change because of people contacting CD's in general.

I think it is the lack of tollerence in this society for those of different physical looks that is the basic problem. My father was in a wheel chair and we faced a fair bit of prejudice because people didn't want to see that. Now that was in the 1960-70's and I think attitudes with respect to that have changed a lot now. There are still plenty of things that American's are prejudiced against though. The conservative movement in the US is strong and wants to turn the clock back on a lot of things here. Or at least that is how it appears to me. So they do seem "against us" and appear to be a blockade.

it seems to me the ones who are always quoting the passage in the old testament about men should wear things pertaining to them and women should wear what pertains to them comes from the religious right here in the states....they tend to be the ones who try and tell others how to live ..ie gay folks and gay marriage, so it is not hard to make the statement that most of the flak comes from fundamenatlist....:2c:

I'm a registered Independent... But politacally and fiscally I'm very conservative... I dress in a dark blue business suit and tie every day for work... I'm agnostic.. But I get along with everyone... And I like to dress like a woman...

Personally I don't see the conection between crossdressing and politics and I'm baffled by those that do!

Back in 'the day' when the bible said men should dress like men, most men wore flowing robes. About the closest thing we have to 'traditional male garments' from biblical times is the way the Saudis dress.

Wouldn't it be delicious if all the right wing fundies were expected to wear this every day?

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u...cal-garb-0.jpg

vivian Best I really appreciate your post,and I agree with you, as far as society not accepting us cders, I find that peaple who does not like crossdressers come from all walks of life, I Know some of the peaple that hated the fact that I crossdress are staunch liberals, I know alot of religeous peaple, and some of them do not understand, but most of them seem to accept me as I am, I am not saying all religeous peaple are not prejudice, because some are, just like some non religeous are prejudice. We need to be careful what we say because there are peaple that are religeous here that can be hurt by what is said here. and I also find that most crossdressers are conservative, and believe me I know a lot of crossdressers. Thanks Vivian best for your thoughts. :hugs: Vivianann

The generalizations expressed by some in this thread are stunning. I know biggots of all persuasions (religous, political, race, economic, gender, etc.). Lack of willpower to think are spread across all boundaries. Let's see-who shall we hate today?

Generally I find generalisations intolerable (hahahahahahaha)...however I think Vivian makes two distinct points....

Firstly that some of us and the way they act and present themselves in public (should we overcome our irrational fears and get that far) are why society "looks down" their collective noses at us.....I have to agree there is some validity in this. It does embarrass me to think that people who don't know me, will have judged me to have attained, with honours, the basest standard as displayed by this "overt" group, when nothing would be further from the truth.

Secondly, that the fundamentalist right wing supports transgender issues equally with any other group. I'm sorry, but although I am not from the US, my observations and discussions with US transgendered people, suggest that as a group they don't. Individuals within the group may be as liberal as the next person, but as a combined entity, the fundamentalist right is very conservative. I am not that sure that the US left is that liberal either, so maybe over there, you have to be satisfied with "enlightened enclaves"???? I know some cities are very supportive, but they do appear to be cities where the right wing is a minority!!

[SIZE="3"]I think Austin Powers' dad said it best in the third flick when he said "There are two things I can't stand - people who are intolerant of other people's culture, and the damned Dutch." Loved that line.

As for me, I'm actually a Constitution Party member, left the Repubs because they went waaaay to liberal for me. I'm very active with my church, I'm pro-gun, pro-drill the crap out of everywhere until oil's down to $10 a barrel, and I don't believe in "global warming" or that man can (or is) hurting the overall environment of the planet. Yes, we can pollute a river or a lake, but it's pure vanity to think insignificant beings such as we could make any serious impact on the planet - and history backs this up. I trust history much more than I trust science.

Still, I like to wear skirts, love garter belts, high heels, and just about all that good stuff. Generalizations, as others have said, don't work with this particular "hobby" or whatever we want to call it. I don't judge anybody for being who they want to be, I do get aggitated over dumb political decisions, but I'm not hung up on Old Testament theology and don't see dressing as anything "sinful" or wrong. Adultery - yes, CD'ing, no.

Take care all and God bless! [/SIZE]:D

OK, let's try and respond just a bit and try and keep things civil. First Item, that quote doesn't come from Winston Churchill. "The Only thing we have to fear is.....fear itself!" it's from the first inauguration speech of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and he was addressing the country's justifiable fears about The Great Depression. Since he was a notorious liberal, you might not want to quote him.

Whenever TG-Friendly Legislation is passed, a lot of Right-Wing Religious Groups are always at The Forefront, trying to get that legislation obliterated. They make outrageous claims, that would be libelous if they didn't hide behind The First Amendment.

I think the antipathy has built up over the couple of decades. I don't see any reason for Transpeople not to feel justifiable fear, prejudice, and hatred from CERTAIN members of The Religious Right.

Tell you what....next time a piece of legislation gets passed, let's see what "Focus On The Family," and similar groups have to say about that legislation. I'll bet it won't be anything positive, and may actually encourage others to attack TG Victims. How could you imagine that TG Folk ought to feel positive about The Religious Right? ....An awful lot of people within that group don't act very tolerant or "Christian" toward us.

Peace and Love, Joanie

Our culture does not support, encourage or tolerate gender transgressions of any kind no matter what clothing they may wearing.
To most, on the outside, we are all the same. They can not see the difference we all do.

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Originally Posted by Randi

[SIZE="3"]
As for me, I'm actually a Constitution Party member, left the Repubs because they went waaaay to liberal for me. I'm very active with my church, I'm pro-gun, pro-drill the crap out of everywhere until oil's down to $10 a barrel, and I don't believe in "global warming" or that man can (or is) hurting the overall environment of the planet. Yes, we can pollute a river or a lake, but it's pure vanity to think insignificant beings such as we could make any serious impact on the planet - and history backs this up. I trust history much more than I trust science.

Still, I like to wear skirts, love garter belts, high heels, and just about all that good stuff. Generalizations, as others have said, don't work with this particular "hobby" or whatever we want to call it. I don't judge anybody for being who they want to be, I do get aggitated over dumb political decisions, but I'm not hung up on Old Testament theology and don't see dressing as anything "sinful" or wrong. Adultery - yes, CD'ing, no.

Take care all and God bless! [/SIZE]:D

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Ok, as a scientist (biochemist) I am astounding that with the line " trust history much more than I trust science." Last time I checked the academic fields of history and science pretty much share the same exact qualities of peer reviewed logical recording of past events. A historian records the past events of human actions, while a scientist such as myself records the past events of natural phenomenon. Second, your statement about the human impact on the earth is blatantly false based upon recent empirical evidence.

Back on topic...I was raised in an episcopalian household where we taught to form our own views and beliefs through the use of logic and reason. From my own past experiences and education in science, theology, and human history I have come to a belief that there may or may not be a God. Secondly, I personally that a literal view of the Bible is completely incorrect. Historical research has shown that both the Old and New testament were originally past down from generation to generation verbally. If anyone has ever played telephone as a child, then you would know how easy it is for a particular religious or political leader to put their own spin on the stories. Secondly, the very nature of the translation of the Bible from Aramaic to latin to germanic english to old english begs the question of how accurate and precise each translation was to the original verbal recordings. Thus you can see from skepticism in the literal interpretation of the Bible, why I have a trouble taking a literal view of old testament passages. Personally, I believe the Old Testament should be taken as a guide to an ethical life and of the power of God if he/she/it exists. As you can see i pretty much disregard whenever an evangelical Christian starts proselytizing.

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Originally Posted by sterling12

Whenever TG-Friendly Legislation is passed, a lot of Right-Wing Religious Groups are always at The Forefront, trying to get that legislation obliterated. They make outrageous claims, that would be libelous if they didn't hide behind The First Amendment.

I think the antipathy has built up over the couple of decades. I don't see any reason for Transpeople not to feel justifiable fear, prejudice, and hatred from CERTAIN members of The Religious Right.

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You can say the same for liberal groups. I don't see any reason for Xians not to feel justifiable fear, prejudice, and hatred from CERTAIN members of The Liberal Left.

-signed, Fundamental Right Winger

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I'm not hung up on Old Testament theology and don't see dressing as anything "sinful" or wrong. Adultery - yes, CD'ing, no.

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I totally agree. When I posted the quotes from the Bible, I copied them from my friend's page. I would never have found them myself. I was replying to someone else's post that said the Bible did NOT mention crossdressing.

Certain people don't like crossdressing. Even the text from the Bible was taken out of context. Dressing as the opposite sex to deceive (lie) to someone (for the act of sex, for example) is wrong, according to the Bible. When talking about politics, you CANNOT use the Bible as an excuse to disallow certain rights or privileges. Not all people follow the same religion. You can believe what you want, but you can't use YOUR religion to enforce laws upon others.

I prefer not to comment on politics, though I think it is sad that some people think they can tell others who they can or cannot marry. Years ago, it was shocking to see people of a different skin color or religion to marry, but now that is acceptable. If we can get passed this gender bias, everyone could be happier. These people are living together and having sex anyway. Why can't they marry?

A famous quote by Winston Churchill comes to my mind and that is, "All we have to fear is fear itself." - I think that this was actually said by FDR.

Too often people make generalizations - about CDers, liberals, conservatives, Blacks, Whites, Muslims, etc. - that do not apply or do much to further understanding.
Talon:)

The people who overtook the republican party want to enact laws making us & our gay brothers & sisters criminals, as well as denying us civil rights. That they base their ideas on a book written thousands of years ago translated poorly & then throughout history has been rewritten to suit the whims of church leaders & kings goes against what our country's founding fathers believed in.
BTW, the ethical John McCain who is on his second marriage, after having dumped his first permanently disabled wife for a rich trophy bride 17 years his junior, is against gay as well as TG civil rights.

What I'm about to say may seem all contradictory, but it all makes sense to me.

I am liberal, if not somewhat socialist in my political views. However, in my religious and moral views I am conservative, for example I am pro-life. As a Roman Catholic, I adhere to a code of morality and virtues impressed upon me by the good nuns and priests who educated me. My church and faith are the center of my life. In them I find not only love, but my ability to love.

Hmm -- so, here I am, a deeply religious person, yet I am a crossdresser.

So, the point is, not everyone who has strong religious beliefs is cut from the same cloth as as those who use religious intolerance to put us down.

However, what is it about us that causes them to heap scorn upon us. Well, when the public face of crossdressing is the likes of RuPaul and other drag queens, or the so-called Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence in San Francisco, how can we not expect the uninformed public to a) lump us all together, and b) hold us to ridicule. They don't represent what I'm about!

Just as above -- while the actions of some religious people or political conservative people cannot be the guide by which all are measured, so too it must also be said about all TG people aren't like the aforementioned examples.

Maybe what I'm saying is that education is the key. We need to make the public aware that we are normal people, we are left wing and right wing, we are every belief structure from atheist to fundamentalist, we are all education levels, we are all professions, we are husbands AND wives, and sisters and brothers.

Let me close with my take off on the Molson I AM beer ad from a few years back:

Hey, I'm not a weirdo or a sissy.

I don't prance around or have a limp wrist or talk with a lisp, and I'm not like like RuPaul, or Dustin Hoffman in Tootsie or Flip Wilson as Geraldine, although I'm certain they're really really nice.

I like to wear skirts, not pants.

I wear a bra and panties & not jockey shorts & and I button my shirts right over left, not left over right.

I can proudly pull my long hair into a poni-tail.

I believe that crossdressing does not make me any less of a person, diversity is better than prejudice, that being feminine and soft is a truly proud and noble thing, a girl can do anything a boy can, women are leaders, and that I am Toni with an I, NOT a Y .. an I!

I believe that as crossdressers we hold up the our part of the sky, deserve respect for who we are as people, and that being a crossdresser is what's best for me.

My name is Toni-Lynn, and I AM A CROSSRESSER!

Thank You!

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

I personally think Rush Limbaugh is a closet crossdresser with a posible TS crush on J. Edgar Hoover. Anyway; Relative significance of History and Science. Try 4.5 billion and 2000 years. We, as humans and late coming scientists, are new around here and still not quite in charge. Sigh! Get it biochemist? :love: Annesah

Right wing, Reagan Conservative Libertarian here.... and I still wear a dress. In my experience I have had more negative reactions from the "peace loving" liberal left than I have from conservatives. You can be conservative without being a Bible thumper. I have friends who are both Liberals and Conservatives.... I have acceptance from both.

As for a political discussions on this board... I try to keep politics out of it.

Christian and a Reagan Conservative here. I belive very much what I read in the Bible. But then I know there is much influence from men's laws in there as well. To me, clothing was made by man. It has no influence in how God looks at me, dressed as I choose to be. I know in my heart, he is concerned with my soul, and how I conduct my life.

i cling to religion and guns....reagan type here all the way...yea its the right wingers causing you grief with being a CD...lmao....dude (dudett) youve been to one to many GLBT group meetings and warped your brain....ive been a CD for years and have never seen the good old days like we have now..ive never understood why somebodys happiness is dependent on policies in washington...you have problems..blame yourself..last time i checked your in complete control of your happiness...this whole topic of blaming somebody else for problems you have just rubs me the wrong way...

[SIZE=3]As for me, I'm actually a Constitution Party member, left the Repubs because they went waaaay to liberal for me. I'm very active with my church, I'm pro-gun, pro-drill the crap out of everywhere until oil's down to $10 a barrel, and I don't believe in "global warming" or that man can (or is) hurting the overall environment of the planet. Yes, we can pollute a river or a lake, but it's pure vanity to think insignificant beings such as we could make any serious impact on the planet - and history backs this up. I trust history much more than I trust science. [/SIZE]


Thats a lovely sentiment Randi, but If I may be so bold as to disagree with you ..... Please get your head out of the sand, and do some reading!
It must be awquard to live in a world where you don't understand what is happening!

As Joselyn is trying to explain ... there is a crisis hapening, and it is my belief that it has already gone beyond our ability to stop it. All we will be able to do will be to mitigate the effects a bit, if we are lucky and united.
If we are not united, we are in for a serious catastrophy at the very least! Few people understand what the thawing of the permafrost in the north heralds. The vedgetable matter contained in that frozen matter is now releasing unprecedented amounts of greenhouse gasses, and we will not be able to contain that. That huge problem is only one of the effects. Another is the sessation of the Gulf stream, due to the reduced salinity from the melting glaciers of Greenland, which is now in progress .... That current keeps Europe warm! .... As it stops flowing that part of the globe will get as cold as the corresponding latitude on the other side. Europe will change dramatically! In Australia the oposite is hapening ... We no longer get rain!
I would go so fat as to say that the churches of the world have contributed to our apathy about our effect, by selling us the idea that it is not our fault, and that the " Almighty " will either fix it, or is punishing us for our misdemeanours. If you pay the church some money they will intecede, and all will be well!

What a load of Manure!!
We need to open our minds to other posiilities and use our brains ... It is later than we think!

Have a nice day !!



Regards

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Originally Posted by Annesah

I personally think Rush Limbaugh is a closet crossdresser with a posible TS crush on J. Edgar Hoover. Anyway; Relative significance of History and Science. Try 4.5 billion and 2000 years. We, as humans and late coming scientists, are new around here and still not quite in charge. Sigh! Get it biochemist? :love: Annesah

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I honestly believe the only reason we still cling to archaic notions of religion and mythology due to our species relative ignorance of mechanics of nature. Our understanding of quantum mechanics and general relativity are still at its infancy. It has only been just over 100 years since general relativity was theoretically proposed by Einstein. Quantum mechanics in its current form is approximately 60 years old. Even general physics is in its infancy as the first major research into the mechanics of natural phenomenon started with Copernicus and Newton during the 18th century. Future concepts such as quantum computing, membrane theory, and curled dimensions will elicit the true fabric of nature.

before you say I most be ignorant in theology and eastern religions, my minor was in theology and second major was in eastern religions (bachelors of arts) (primary bachelors in physics). My doctorate is in biochemistry.

Here's A thread I'm inclinded to jump all over,but I won't.

Surffice to say fundamentalists of any stripe have this need to proselytize.Well guess what kids,and i'm preaching to the choir here,we all have our own road to follow and we don't need any traffic cops.

intriguing thread, Ladies,
of course we all want to live and let live which to many sounds rather left wing. but i am gathering by your posts that many of us consider ourselves to be rather conservative.
i remember being in trouble for wearing an American Indian ear cuff while, gasp!, leading hymns in front of the assembly!
it made me ponder, whose conservatism are we talking about?
authentic native jewelry given me by a First American and my pony tail made some think i was being a hippy. i feel that way inside, a flower child, born too young for the "summer of love." but there would be future summers. even so, even like some of you said, i would never force or even urge others to live one way or another, my views on stewardship of resources and the sanctity of life, all life, and the company i keep mark me as rather to the right of center.
we are all children of the universe, striving to find our way in the dark by the light given us by our elders, who often were quite fallible and even misguided. what fires we build, may we see farther and deeper by and share the warmth we create together. to build each other up and to preserve and strengthen seems to me to be a most conservative thing to do.
from behind these eyes,
gratefully,
jessie

I hate to mix politics and, well, this, but to say that someone is incorrect in assuming that those who are right wing conservatives and religious in association with those politics would be more likely to be intolerant of cross dressing or transgenderism is fooling themselves and just needs to look no further than the reaction to gay marriage. I'm sorry, ladies, but tolerance and the religious right do not go hand in hand.

Now some of you might be conservative and religious and take issue with this because, after all, you are a cd and are tolerant of our behavior. I would say that you are not representative of your religio-political group. I'm sorry if you take offense at this. I really mean none and I respect your right to vote and pray as you will. It's just that there are too many of your associates who do not extend me the same courtesy and those who are most likely to pummel me to death for wearing a dress are not secular progressives such as myself but so-called religious conservatives.

I've been trying to stay out of this thread but feel I need to respond. First, I should point out that I'm a fiscal conservative/libertarian(so yes, I was a strong supporter of Ron Paul in the recent republican primaries).

One thing I think people need to remember is that there are several factions right now in the Republican party that I believe really do have competing agendas. There are social conservatives(pro-life, anti-gay, etc), fiscal conservatives, national security conservatives, etc. I think for the most part fiscal conservatives(who tend to be more libertarian in their beliefs) and those like Rudy Guiliani who are more vocal in support of the war on terror could care less what people do as long as they don't bother others. The fiscal conservatives I know would support anybody would simply veto budgets that weren't balanced.

However, there are many democrats who are shall we say squeemish about transgender issues. For example, you can take a look at this news article from October 2007. It talks about an GLBT employment non-descrimination act that was in congress(where both houses are democratically controlled). They had to remove the transgender portions because according to the article "Frank, the only openly gay man serving in Congress, surprised many leading LGBT rights advocates during a September 27 meeting when he announced his whip count showed there were not enough votes to support ENDA if it included gender identity protections". If all the democrats were behind this, then they would have had the votes to pass the law.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...n3385961.shtml

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Originally Posted by cdjenny20

However, there are many democrats who are shall we say squeemish about transgender issues.

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Jenny, you're absolutely right. There are way too many democrats who cannot bring themselves to be as progressive as we would like them to be. But they are closer than those on the right. And, as you said, there are all kinds of people on both sides of the spectrum. For me, it's those who use their religion to condemn others and those who use those who use their religion that I have real issues with. You just don't find those on the left as apt to be violent or encourage intolerance as those on the right.

As I sit here and do my makeup, I started reading through all the posts in the thread and had all these male emotions ready to pounce on certain posters.

But as I become more feminine in appearance and feelings i decided not to even get involved in this discussion. Much too masculine for me. I guess the years of therapy actually were worth it.:)

It doesn't matter if one is a right winger, fundamentalist, conservative, Muslim, Christian, Jewish, or atheist. It is narrow minded people that are the problem, people whose views focus so narrowly that they can't see anything but their ignorant views. They see the Sweetgum tree for the seed pods that drop from it and hurt so much if you step on one while bare footed. They don't see a beautiful hardwood tree that provides lots of shade in the summer, drops it's leaves to let the sunshine in during the winter, grows fast so that one that sprouts when your child is born looks like a mature tree when she graduates high school, and to top it off it is a non-invasive species. They see the cd or tg person as a pervert and have no intention in learning why they feel this way, what it means to be transgendered, or what crossdressing really is all about. We have to put up with them weather we like it or not. They have to put up with us weather they like it or not!

Pamela:)

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Originally Posted by Pamela Julie

It doesn't matter if one is a right winger, fundamentalist, conservative, Muslim, Christian, Jewish, or atheist. It is narrow minded people that are the problem, people whose views focus so narrowly that they can't see anything but their ignorant views. They see the Sweetgum tree for the seed pods that drop from it and hurt so much if you step on one while bare footed. They don't see a beautiful hardwood tree that provides lots of shade in the summer, drops it's leaves to let the sunshine in during the winter, grows fast so that one that sprouts when your child is born looks like a mature tree when she graduates high school, and to top it off it is a non-invasive species. They see the cd or tg person as a pervert and have no intention in learning why they feel this way, what it means to be transgendered, or what crossdressing really is all about. We have to put up with them weather we like it or not. They have to put up with us weather they like it or not!

Pamela:)

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Well said, Pamela. Thank you.

Well, I can only speak for myself but the reason I like to come here and check the forums is because as long as I have been reading them they have stayed out of the political arena. We come from all walks of life far left and far right. Let this be a place where political leaning matters not.

With that I will say good night and have a great tomorrow.

My thought is there are way to many people in this world that think there Way is the only way others should think or believe. In the U.S.A. we have a thing called the by our
Bill of Rights of freedom of life liberty and happiness the things some don't which us to have because it afends the way they which ti think. I cant say one nation under God Because some one don't believe in God and so on. I must stop now before I say something that may hurt some of my sisters here. :hugs:
Angie

Clearly, many on this website are good right-wing fundamentalists. I don't dispute that, not at all. Possibly the nicest, most kind woman I know is a very right-wing fundamentalist. I have no doubt that at this very moment she awaits the rapture to lift her into heaven.

And yes, there are intolerant liberals.

All of which is beside the point. IMHO, the point is that no liberal groups are trying to make cross-dressing illegal. And the Democratic party (which I don't consider especially liberal) has not attempted to make homosexuality into the world's greatest evil. Can anyone say the same for the fundamentalist "Christian" preachers or the right-wingers who fill the AM radio frequencies with their venom?

You think I exagerate? Read the Texas Republican Party platform; you can find it on the web. Face it, the GOP demonizes gays, and they cannot/will not differentiate crossdressers from gays.

Yes, one can be a good person, and a right-winger, and a crossdresser. But don't expect the crossdressing community to praise you for it. As Jaina said so succinctly in her post: "When you ally yourself with a group, you are responsible for the actions of that group."

Cindi Johnson

Tell me again why this thread was opened? There's a lot of right-wing bashing going on here. Personally, I'm a conservative democrat. I believe in unions and guns. This means I vote Republican because of the socialist/communist infiltration of the Democratic Party. I guess it is clear now, that this post is for the LGBT people to bash right-wingers with their vitriolic hate. But, the Republicans on this board become disallusioned with these constant attacks. Why do leftist CDers want to alienate their "sisters" on the right? I think that it does little to help the LGBT cause and probably hurts it. If society, only sees the radical left of the LGBT movement, then the stereotypes continue, and the freedom you seek so badly is further away.

This thread is closed, politics are not a part of this forum and religion has its own section.