Normality!

This post is directed at MtF CDs specifically, but all are welcome to reply and comment.

Wake up and smell the coffee, people, we are normal. Yes, a bold statement, but a true one nonetheless. Our goal as a group shouldn't be to demand rights and such for our group. For those of you familiar with my posts, and my blog, such a statement will no doubt not be expected from me. What we need to do is change our own self-image, and then begin to live that image without fear.

What is it I'm proposing? Realize how normal we are. Next time you go outside, count the number of people you see wearing clothes. Quite a few, right? Probably all of them. Then remind yourself next time you're dressing, that all you're really doing, at its core, is changing from one set of clothes to another. I know it doesn't feel like this a lot of the time. Many of us build up these fantasies and sexual urges related to crossdressing. Many of us identify strongly as crossdressers, sometimes to the point of viewing it as a fundamental part of who we are.

It isn't. Call it what you will: impulse, urge, desire. The clothes we choose to wear are no more a part of us than the food we choose to eat, the soda we choose to drink, the house we choose to inhabit, or the cars we choose to drive. Granted, we may choose some of these things because of who we are, but at the very core, do we identify ourselves by our tastes in food, soda, houses, or cars? No!

I am a person above all else. I have that in common with every other person on this planet. My being a person is what's fundamental. It is more fundamental to me than being a man. Clothes are just clothes, they have no necessary gender. Hair is just hair, the meanings associated with length and style are completely arbitrary. Makeup is just coloured substances painted on the face. There is no inherent determination of whose face it is to be painted on.

The point I'm trying to make? Like it or not, we are normal. We're just people who like to wear clothes. I've tried to stop seeing myself as a man in a skirt, and I've come to see a person wearing clothes. The fact that certain clothes or styles tend to belong to one gender over another is an arbitrary, culturally determined relic. I feel it is one that should be buried. The only way that goal can be accomplished is if we make ourselves normal.

Let's not fight the way other groups have fought for rights and freedom. Let's not draw dividing lines, make people defend their beliefs. The best thing we can possibly do is start to see ourselves the right way, live our lives that way, and let everyone else see us that way. We are lucky to live in as free a society as many of us do. Let's not let that go to waste. When the time is right for me, I will be out. I will go public, and I will let the world see just how normal I am. The more normal people they see, the more normal they'll see us.

Yeah!!! Well said... I'm the most normal person I know.... :) And when out I portray myself as normal as normal can be and basically push my new reality upon others.....

Fantastic post!! We are all just normal people with different likes and desires.

So be comfortable with who you are, a Normal human being!!!!

Erica

Yes I was out last night going thru a Barnes & Nobles and I had this very thought. Almost. I thought about what if I were in here in women's clothes? No other man in here is. I thought about what a ruckus would occur. How I might even be escorted out of there but at the very least would be the center of attention. It would have been ridiculous.
Normal in my own mind.........maybe.

'Normal' :Angry3: I soooo LOATHE that word, just reeks of conformity and mediocrity. Refers to a vast, homogenized 'standard' everyone is expected to just 'know'. I acknowledge noones standards except my own anymore. And by my standards, theres nothing wrong with any of us.:hugs:

I like your post, Valarie, because it touches big issues. Allow me a couple of comments.

You state that "Our goal as a group shouldn't be to demand rights and such for our group". Maybe so, but I strongly believe it is my duty, as a human being, to demand rights for all the disenfranchised and all the persecuted. I will always support all who are mistreated or denied their basic rights at the hands of those in power. Does that include crossdressers? Yes, to an extent it does, particularly outside of the big cities (plus, there are always people in positions of power who would take from us the legal right to dress which, in the USA at least, we did not have back when I was a teenager). It also clearly includes gays and illegal immigrants and the million-plus imprisoned for non-violent drug offenses. Plus those young men and women we've sent to fight in needless wars.
* * * * * *
My last comment addresses your statement that "Many of us identify strongly as crossdressers, sometimes to the point of viewing it as a fundamental part of who we are. It isn't."

I'm in my 50's and have struggled with this for as long as I can remember. My very earliest memories are of my envy of girls and the way they looked, dressed, and acted. There is little in my life which is more fundamental to my existence than is my transgendered nature. Have I ever went a day without thinking of it? Maybe, but I wouldn't want to bet money on that. I might (god forbid) lose my arms and legs, yet in my mind I'd still remain TG.

Put another way: I cannot imagine myself not transgendered.

Perhaps a casual crossdresser (if such exists; why would anyone CD if it were not for that urge from within) sees it all differently than I do. Anyway, thanks for the great post.

Cindi Johnson

I agree with the "we're normal" part of this. I could look at greater than 50% of the men I see in any situation, and think to myself, "Even if you have never worn women's clothing before, don't tell me you've never been at least curious about it. Maybe the only reason you don't actively crossdress is because you never had the guts to slip on that first pair of pantyhose. Maybe you're just scared that you'll actually enjoy lace next to your skin. Maybe you don't realize that it's possible to, and even okay to, be both masculine and feminine at the same time."

I don't necessarily agree with the "it's just clothes" part of this, though. If it were just clothes, we wouldn't worry about beard cover, breasts, and tucking. We wouldn't wear makeup and wigs. It's way more than just clothes.

But yeah. It's normal.

I think, therefore I am [normal]!

Is that how it goes?

Ok...

What about social norms... isn't that really what the issue is?

"You are not normal" = "You are not following accepted social norms"

and if you want to fight to get those changed, then so be it.

I think a lot of us may be disappointed if crossdressing were part of the social norm...

Could someone maybe quote the most important parts of that post so it is not so long a read?

Thank you to all those who replied, and who support my point of view. I will take this chance to respond to those who disagreed, just because I love a good debate. :tongueout

To Patrice: My point was that everyone is normal at their core. We all share the common bond of humanity. This post isn't about judging, but suspending judgment, at least when it comes to the harmless activity of crossdressing.

To Cindi Johnson: In response to your first comment, it depends on the methods you use. I used the word "fight" intentionally, because when there's a fight over something, there's at least two sides. I think that drawing the line between sides would do more harm than good. Those who oppose people like us would feel the need to defend their views, creating a counter-productive situation in which every small success on our side is hard earned and strongly opposed. Why not simply exercise the rights we already have, and let the world get used to that, so that there's no need for a fight at all?

As for your second comment...I think about lots of things on a daily basis: the weather, my favourite foods, video games, school, books, my computer, etc. That doesn't make any of these things a fundamental part of who I am. Sure, they may all be a part of me, or at least an expression of who I am, but they're not fundamental in the sense that I would be irrevocably altered without them. Just as I would still be the same basic person even if I lived the rest of my life without the desire to wear skirts and dresses.

TGMarla: My point regarding the clothes was that there is nothing in the clothes which makes them necessarily linked to one gender. Tell me what it is about skirts that makes it so that only a woman can wear them. Or what is it about a woman that makes it so only they can wear skirts? I could ask the same questions about makeup and hairstyles as well, and you would be hard pressed to find an answer other than "nothing."

As for the beard cover/tucking/breast form issue. I debated whether or not to address that in my first post, and since you brought it up, I will address it now. Not to condescend to you or anyone else on this board, but it any basic psychology or sociology class, you learn that there's a difference between sex and gender. Sex is a biological thing, and gender is a social/cultural development. Genders are ascribed to sexes. There is no necessary link between any gendered behaviour and a corresponding sex.

Without that link, any argument against a man behaving in a feminine manner falls apart. There is no necessary connection between being a man and being masculine, nor is there one between being a woman and being feminine. So yes, when it comes to breast forms and beard covers and tucking, it is a little more than just clothes. Still, all it is is a person expressing a gender role. Once again, this happens all the time. Everybody you see expresses a gender role. And since a gender has only as much necessary connection to a sex as does an article of clothing, there's really nothing abnormal about a man expressing a feminine gender role.

To Shannen: We may not be accepted by social norms. Unfortunately, many of us internalize this and believe that there is something inherently abnormal in what we do. So we run off and join the CD subculture by becoming members of a forum like this one. The problem is that even when we're here, many of us buy into the illusion that there's something wrong with or abnormal about the way we live. We help perpetuate the social norms despite the fact that there is nothing inherently abnormal about us. Our goal should be to change these social norms, not through conflict, but through gradually exposing the world to us in all our normal glory.

"NORMAL"- A cycle on a washing machine. That's the only normal I'm aware of. I know quite a few conformists. Conforming to what their idea of what their sub culture expects.The list of those sub cultures is almost infinite. Country, punk, teeny bobber, urban, urbane, ect., ect., ect., each has their own distinctive look.
As for me, what am conforming to by wearing clothing that is designed for woman to wear, or by keeping my nails long and polished, wearing earring and jewelery, and having an effeminate look even in drab?
Thanks, but you can keep the "normal". Everyone on this planet is unique in their own way. I like being different than the accepted standards, always have.

A couple people seem to be hung up on my use of the word "normal." So allow me to explain the precise meaning I'm shooting for here. First of all, I'm not saying anything about us needs to change, other than how we see ourselves. I'm not encouraging conforming to any specific standard of normality. What I'm saying is that we are already normal, and we just have to realize it. Once we realize that we are already normal, we can reveal ourselves to the rest of the world, without so much fear. Then, when we do so, we can show the rest of the world that we are already normal and don't need to change in order to be normal.

The point, in a nutshell, is that there is nothing inherently abnormal in what we do, and so we shouldn't see it as abnormal, or feel the pull to conform to societal norms. We're just fine the way we are.

Yes, we are fine just the way we are. I agree whole heartedly! I just don't believe there is such a thing as a normal human being. Never met one in 57 years, and don't expect to.

I think of normal as being a default. Anyone who is not abnormal is normal. And because I've used this thread to demonstrate that crossdressing is not abnormal, it--for me anyway--falls into the category of what is normal.

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Originally Posted by Valerie Nicole

To Shannen: We may not be accepted by social norms. Unfortunately, many of us internalize this and believe that there is something inherently abnormal in what we do. So we run off and join the CD subculture by becoming members of a forum like this one. The problem is that even when we're here, many of us buy into the illusion that there's something wrong with or abnormal about the way we live. We help perpetuate the social norms despite the fact that there is nothing inherently abnormal about us. Our goal should be to change these social norms, not through conflict, but through gradually exposing the world to us in all our normal glory.

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Thanks, I enjoy discussion also! :tongueout

To put it bluntly, if I didn't get an adrenaline rush from breaking the social norms by dressing as the opposite gender, would I find it as necessary?

What happens when only crossdressers wear skirts?

Are you saying that gender separation is totally societal/learned behavior?

:hugs:Shannen

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Originally Posted by Shannen

Thanks, I enjoy discussion also! :tongueout

To put it bluntly, if I didn't get an adrenaline rush from breaking the social norms by dressing as the opposite gender, would I find it as necessary?

What happens when only crossdressers wear skirts?

Are you saying that gender separation is totally societal/learned behavior?

:hugs:Shannen

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That's exactly what I'm saying, actually. This is a well documented psychological/sociological fact. Gender roles are learned, not inherent.

You do raise some other interesting questions, though. Your first "what if" question is interesting, even though I'm not quite sure where you're going with it. Maybe trying to show that crossdressing isn't completely normal? At any ate, no, I don't think you'd find it necessary. At the same time, were there no societal norms preventing you from wearing a skirt, you probably wouldn't find it unnecessary, either.

Let me use an example. I don't particularly like to wear Hawaiian shirts. They're just not my style. So I don't wear them, even though I have limitless freedom to do so. It wouldn't be abnormal for me to wear one. Were I to live in a society where Hawaiian shirts were forbidden, or only for a specific group of people to which I didn't belong, and I had the desire to wear Hawaiian shirts, my wearing them would be considered strange, even my desire to wear them would be out of the ordinary. Yet, as this example clearly demonstrates, there is nothing inherently abnormal about wearing any particular article of clothing. Whether or not you have the urge to wear the clothes is not the issue.

Your second question is much more interesting. Speaking with little knowledge of sociology/cultural anthropology, I suspect what might develop is a third gender. The feminine gender role would change so that women would be expected to be a certain way, different from they are now. Already, this trend is developing, in fact. The masculine gender role might do the same thing. Then there would be us crossdressers, TGs, and TSs who liked the old feminine gender role and wanted to continue to express that. There might even be women who feel the same way. And so what might eventually occur is a split of the feminine gender category into two categories. Though I doubt it would be recognized as such, I imagine something along these lines would occur in the scenario you described.

However, I think what we're more likely to see is a general blurring of gender lines. Women wearing pants, men wearing women's pants, certain groups, such as punks and goths, wearing makeup. As these trends continue, I think we'll be more likely to see gender lines begin to dissolve. My ideal world is one in which crossdressing is impossible, because the outdated idea of gendered clothing will finally have been laid to rest.

A very articulate post, Valerie. However, I'd like to suggest an opposing view.

It seems you are observing that we are all normal in some basic way. Perhaps that is true. But, I would observe that we are all abnormal in many more ways. And it is our intrinsic striving to be different, to stand out from the crowd, to excell in some endeavor, that should be celibrated. Young teens are obsessed with "fitting in" with their peers. Hopefully they outgrow that before adulthood. Even though our society encourages a certain amount of compliance with a societal norm, it celibrates exceptions to that norm.

I have no interest in being "normal". I relish my differences. There is no one else quite like me. [Probably a good thing ;-)] I am not necessarily better or worse than my peers, just different.

In fact, I think, it is the very quest for the elusive "normal" that causes so much anxiety in our population. We need a label so that we are "normal" in at least one group. Even if that group is abnormal in another context. This very forum allows us to feel normal in our abnormalness.

"Normal", "norm", "average", "mean". These are statistical terms useful in the context of examining a group of individuals. They suck when used to describe a particular individual.

The coffee I smell tells me that, while I certainly have some normal traits, I am not normal. Unless you will allow that it is normal to be different.

Perhaps it is abnormal to not yearn to be normal.

Following up on the "smell the coffee" phrase: I love the smell of coffee brewing. I even love the smell of the coffee aisle in the grocery store. But, I do not like the taste. I would suggest that, while being normal '"smells" good from a distance, the "taste" of being normal is quite different.

But, I could be wrong.

The theory is nice, but reality is different. Normality is defined by popular consensus, and popular consensus dictates that men do not wear female clothing, and that is is where the theory breaks down.

Until such time as it is acceptable for men to appear as women, there will always be a struggle... It's happening slowly but surely, but there's a long way to go yet.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Don't worry, Emily, my bubble remains intact. I'm not saying that it would be instantaneous, or easy. I just believe that, for the most part, people couldn't care less. At first, there'd be shock, laughter, all the stuff we fear most. But, as more of us start to do it, seemingly individually, we wouldn't appear quite so strange anymore. People would just get used to seeing is. My theory was never go out once and people will just see you as normal. It was that the more we go out, and the more of us that go out, the more people will realize that there's quite a few of us out there, and we're really not all that different.

I think that's what is happening, gradually.

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Originally Posted by Valerie Nicole

The clothes we choose to wear are no more a part of us than the food we choose to eat, the soda we choose to drink, the house we choose to inhabit, or the cars we choose to drive. Granted, we may choose some of these things because of who we are, but at the very core, do we identify ourselves by our tastes in food, soda, houses, or cars? No!

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Food: Ask most any long-time vegetarian. (If you ask why they are vegetarian, you might not be given an answer, but if you ask whether being vegetarian is important to the person, you probably will.)

Houses: One of my uncles, upon retirement, now spends at least 5 months a year traveling in his RV. An RV is a kind of house, but for those who take more than the occasional trip, the lifestyle is also part of their personality. Wonder the world, meet people, see new things, enjoy nature: it isn't the life for everyone, but for some it is part of their personality.

Cars: Ah? Then why did anyone think it was worth making a documentary about the GM EV1 (Sony Pictures, "Who Killed The Electric Car?") And from what I hear, some of the clubs for owners of high-end cars are more than a little snobbish. Never met someone who swore up and down that there was no way they were ever going to buy no G*d d*mmed foreign car?

I'm just a little put off by the existentialism that I feel in you initial statement. It is fine to live in our own realities, but we ignore the world around us at our own peril sometimes.

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who liked the old feminine gender role and wanted to continue to express that.

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Exactly! without the gender role being defined, we can not identify (with) it!

One last question....

Have you ever been around children????? They do come into the world different. (the diff genders) We may have refined how we play into those differences in each culture, but we sure don't start out as neutral lumps.


:hugs:Shannen

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Originally Posted by tess-leigh

Food: Ask most any long-time vegetarian. (If you ask why they are vegetarian, you might not be given an answer, but if you ask whether being vegetarian is important to the person, you probably will.)

Houses: One of my uncles, upon retirement, now spends at least 5 months a year traveling in his RV. An RV is a kind of house, but for those who take more than the occasional trip, the lifestyle is also part of their personality. Wonder the world, meet people, see new things, enjoy nature: it isn't the life for everyone, but for some it is part of their personality.

Cars: Ah? Then why did anyone think it was worth making a documentary about the GM EV1 (Sony Pictures, "Who Killed The Electric Car?") And from what I hear, some of the clubs for owners of high-end cars are more than a little snobbish. Never met someone who swore up and down that there was no way they were ever going to buy no G*d d*mmed foreign car?

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So you're saying that a vegetarian who lives in an RV and refuses to drive a foreign car is nothing more than a vegetarian who lives in an RV and refuses to drive a foreign car? That's their whole identity? Those are the most important aspects of their personality?

Actually, you bring out a good point. Crossdressing is no more fundamental than any other part of a personality. I like chicken wings, root beer, videogames, dogs, computers, horror novels, some fantasy books, Star Trek, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, rock music, and anything that makes me laugh. Each of these is a part of who I am, and like these, crossdressing is a part of me. But it is not all of me, or the most important part of me.

So even if you feel strongly about the food you eat, house you live in, or car you drive, it does not (or maybe I should say should not) comprise your entire identity, and neither does (or should) crossdressing.

To Shannen: Yes, I've been around children. And I'm not sure what age you're talking about here, but children are sponges when they come into the world, and from the moment the doctor says "It's a boy" or "It's a girl" the parents start treating that child as a boy or a girl. As it grows up, it will learn its gender norms and will come to believe that they are natural, even though they have really just been taught from an early age, just as their parents will believe they are natural even though they are learned, just as their parents will believe they are natural even though they are learned. And so on, and so on.

I saw this thread and it reminded me of a song called I'm Normal by The Skyhooks that I listened to an awful lot as a teen, maybe because I felt so abnormal....anyway I hope its OK to reproduce the lyrics here

I'm normal yes I'm normal
Normal as anybody can be
I'm normal yes I'm normal
There's no one as normal as me

Well I've had my share of orgys
Young marrieds and gay swingers
Had too many weirdos
Wet nurses and girl singers
Seen me enough blue movies
To last me a lifetime through
And I'm getting pretty desperate
For something new to do

So I'm throwing out my rubber sheets and kinky knee high boots
Going back to holding hands
That's where I got my roots
Throwin' out my dildos and porno magazines
Goin' back to wholesome sex just like it's in my teens

I'm normal yes I'm normal
Normal as anybody can be
I'm normal yes I'm normal
There's no one as normal as me

No one ever just says 'hi'
Or talk about the weather
They all ask me if I'm bi
And into whips 'n leather
There's just too many massage girls
Doin' it for free
And I get that funny feeling
Someone's usin' me

So I'm throwin' out my Spanish Fly
All that Vitamin E
Swallowed enough stupid pills to start a factory
Yes I'm givin' it all up I'm going back to zero
Getting just too tired of being a pornographic hero

I'm normal yes I'm normal
Normal as anybody can be
I'm normal yes I'm normal
There's no one as normal as me

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Originally Posted by Lilygirl

Yes, we are fine just the way we are. I agree whole heartedly! I just don't believe there is such a thing as a normal human being. Never met one in 57 years, and don't expect to.

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:iagree:
I don't support use of the N word, it's a rev. Hagee type word.

Yes we are normal but we are also different from a lot as it is normal to be different as everyone is different in some way,
yes we are in a group but there are big differences in what we want from one end of the group to the other so it would be difficult to know what rights to demand for, but saying that i do not think that it would do any harm if we could get some simple wording changed in place`s like schools and place`s of work where it states " Boys uniform so and so, girls uniform so and so, men's code of dress women's code of dress, then at least every one would understand that anyone can wear anything they like.
It does seam odd that we were born naked then had to have clothes to keep us warm then some one decided to make it some sort of statement , fashion or gender i do not know and that seams to have stuck but now we would like to change that .
Not sure that i agree with you on the house and car thing as most seam to think that they are different if they have a fast car and a posh house i see that all the time, and there is definitely snobbery in what clothes you wear .

I can agree with you saying that clothes are just clothes yet many use them to make a statement on what they are or trying to be and many will assume what you are from the clothes that you are wearing so can we really say clothes are just clothes.

OK so i believe you have wrote all this because you believe in what you have said so it leaves me with one question , why do you not believe the time is right now for you to be out wearing the clothes of your chose,
why are you waiting to show people that you are normal , what is it you are waiting for , i am only asking you this to see what you think needs to be changed for you to go out .

joanne

Good questions, Joanne. The time is not right for me yet because I'm still very young, without much of a public face or voice. I am unemployed, and still receiving my education. Because I'm a realist as well as an idealist, I have to recognize that to live my normal life right now would jeopardize a lot of what I seek to gain in terms of my personal life, which, for the moment, I must put ahead of any real activism or crossdressing "movement." When I have my full education, and at least some job security with the respect of my colleagues, the time will be right for me.

Arguing about whether something or someone is "normal", is mostly a lot of hot air. Or on this site, a lot of wasted print.

The point is; do u FEEL normal CDing? I don't. And I'll take it a step further.
I think if u feel CDing is normal, than u r delusional!

I WISH CDing was NORMAL and accepted by the public, but it isn't. I WISH I could go out dressed HOWEVER I wished to. But know that I can't, without ramifications.

I WISH I felt CDing was a normal activity, but I don't. I am powerless to change the way I FEEL, altho I keep trying. And I certainly can't change society's view that CDing is, at least, abnormal. If not something even worse!

There is something in human nature that makes us reject those that look different. Maybe it dates back to our tribal days. But, in any case, it is what it is. For whatever reason.

There may come a time in human history, when CD's will be accepted out in public. But I don't believe that will happen in my lifetime. Sadly enough.

NORMAL: My definition of normal; well that's a loaded word when used by anyone anywhere.. the truth to me is I feel normal, when dressed and when not dressed up as Carly.. to the people who don't crossdress and don't have any kind of other type of mental anguish(es) I think they might be the most un normal, because they are too pure, (more than likely they are the most perverted of anyone there is) and usually that is the case.. being a crossdresser probably isn't normal behavior but then being a child molester is way way not normal and I feel like , in my eyes that crossdressing isn't hurting anyone and that it is a form of self expression..

Yes Valerie Nicole, i can see your point in that and it is a pity that we feel that we are made to make choices like that .
Hey i thought it was you young ones that are meant to be changing the world for us oldies or at least showing us how it is done :D just kidding .



joanne

The reason why I'm not normal has nothing to do with being trans. Pulls out computer geek weekly.

"Most people seem normal until you get to know them."
But the word is a highly charged and difficult one. We each have our own idea of normal which has been programmed by family and society. The hurdle that we and society in general have to get over is that of thinking that non-normal equals harmful or bad.
I don't think that my CDing behavior is normal in the context of my social situation, but on the other hand I don't see it as bad or destructive. My wife is a little bemused by it but not alarmed. Her objection to it, if any, is just that it's not socially acceptable.
It's a kind of circular argument isn't it.

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Originally Posted by Shannen

I think a lot of us may be disappointed if crossdressing were part of the social norm...

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That's an interesting point, Shannen, and one I give a lot of thought to. If men and women all wore the same clothes and enjoyed the opportunity to style in similar manners (hair, make-up, etc.) even to the point that average men wore breast forms to accentuate their style, how would that affect me/us? Personally, I think I would be happy in only that I could be and dress as I like all the time with no worries about how I would be perceived at work or family affairs. I think the world would be a better place if we all wore skirts.

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Originally Posted by Valerie Nicole

So even if you feel strongly about the food you eat, house you live in, or car you drive, it does not (or maybe I should say should not) comprise your entire identity, and neither does (or should) crossdressing.

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You are changing your words as you go. What you wrote, that I replied to, was,

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but at the very core, do we identify ourselves by our tastes in food, soda, houses, or cars? No!

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There is a difference between "entire identity" and "identify ourselves by".

Most people aren't too concerned about what they eat, and if they go somewhere that doesn't happen to have their first choice in food or soda, they will just shrug and have something else. A long-term vegetarian, given the choice of eating something not in accordance with their kind of vegetarianism or else going without a meal, will likely skip the meal, even if they are "hungry". I've "gone hungry" rather than break my ethics -- and going hungry can be dangerous for me for medical reasons. Where does food sit in Maslow's Hierarchy Of Needs? Numero Uno -- so someone fully prepared to go without food because of something they believe in, is not just expressing a "taste", they are expressing something that they consider to be of great importance to their identity. Are they reducing their identity to just that one point? Of course not! But that doesn't mean that particular part of their identity is considered to be on-par with other parts of their identity.

Bleach my hair blond because this one has gone ten thousand and climbing right over my head. This thread has totally lost me.

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Originally Posted by tess-leigh

You are changing your words as you go. What you wrote, that I replied to, was,



There is a difference between "entire identity" and "identify ourselves by".

Most people aren't too concerned about what they eat, and if they go somewhere that doesn't happen to have their first choice in food or soda, they will just shrug and have something else. A long-term vegetarian, given the choice of eating something not in accordance with their kind of vegetarianism or else going without a meal, will likely skip the meal, even if they are "hungry". I've "gone hungry" rather than break my ethics -- and going hungry can be dangerous for me for medical reasons. Where does food sit in Maslow's Hierarchy Of Needs? Numero Uno -- so someone fully prepared to go without food because of something they believe in, is not just expressing a "taste", they are expressing something that they consider to be of great importance to their identity. Are they reducing their identity to just that one point? Of course not! But that doesn't mean that particular part of their identity is considered to be on-par with other parts of their identity.

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You're right in that vegetarianism is different from tastes in food. But ethics are a deeper part of a person's identity. Not eating meat, as a vegetarian, isn't a matter of taste, which was your point. My response is that in case such as this, it isn't the food which is important, but the sentiment and ethics expressed by the food that is or isn't eaten. The food is still just food. The food itself isn't how the person identifies themselves. They identify themselves based on the ethics that guide their diet.

Normal? Just look at my avatar. Does that look normal to you? I'm not normal, I'm a freak, a goofball, nutcase, weirdo, kook, wacko, whack job, screwy, screwball, lunatic, crazy, eccentric, dingbat, crackpot, bozo, nut, flake, fruitcake, oddball, crank, batty, misfit, odd, peculiar, strange, and etc. This should explain where I'm coming from.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valerie Nicole

Wake up and smell the coffee, people, we are normal. Yes, a bold statement, but a true one nonetheless.

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I agree, if you mean that gender variance is a ubiquitous strand of human experience across history and culture. Yes, we've always been here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valerie Nicole

Our goal as a group shouldn't be to demand rights and such for our group. What we need to do is change our own self-image, and then begin to live that image without fear.

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I dunno about that. No one ever got any rights without fighting for them. But certainly having confidence in who you are is a necessary part. "We're here, we're (whatever), get used to it" has no impact if "we" haven't gotten used to "it" first.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valerie Nicole

Clothes are just clothes, they have no necessary gender. Hair is just hair, the meanings associated with length and style are completely arbitrary. Makeup is just coloured substances painted on the face. There is no inherent determination of whose face it is to be painted on.

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I dunno about that either. Clothes are a form of self-expression. They may have no gender as such, but they have gender meaning specific to their time and place. When I wear women's clothes (which is all the time) I'm expressing something (which I currently think of as "femme" rather than "female") about myself, and if the gender meaning of these clothes was different, I'd wear different clothes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valerie Nicole

Let's not fight the way other groups have fought for rights and freedom. Let's not draw dividing lines, make people defend their beliefs. The best thing we can possibly do is start to see ourselves the right way, live our lives that way, and let everyone else see us that way. We are lucky to live in as free a society as many of us do. Let's not let that go to waste. When the time is right for me, I will be out. I will go public, and I will let the world see just how normal I am. The more normal people they see, the more normal they'll see us.

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The best thing is to see ourselves in the right way, sure. But when you're open about who you are, how you fight for rights and freedom is not really up to you. It depends how other people see you. They already have their dividing lines and beliefs, and they'll defend them simply because you challenge them by existing. You're only on the way to rights and freedom when they've stopped bothering so much.

:happy:

This is one of my favorite subjects, Valerie I have posted in a couple of my threads about this very subject, the latest thread, "compliments from GG's". Like you I do not believe in protesting for socalled special rights to wear dresses, because like you said, society will only push back. Yes most of society does not accept crossdressing because they associate it with the gay or outrageous drag queen lifestyle, we already have the right to dress how we please, we are too afraid exercise our rights to dress as a woman, I know I use to be afraid also, I have overcome that fear, and now I go out dressed almost daily. We need to quit hiding behind our fears. I get alot of compliments from alot of women, and a few men when I am out in public crossdressed, I have been told I dress classy. I dont care if peaple dont like how I am dressed. I remember the day when women were scorned by society for wearing pants in the 1960's I was a boy then, some women rebelled against society and wore pants until it was accepted for women to dress how they want to. We need to follow their example by dressing how we want to. protesting is not the answer, we need to get dressed get out and be safe as Gina Lance from girl talk magazine says. Like I have said in the past we need to dress in a appropriate manner so society does not see us as a freak show, if we dress ****ty when we go to the mall or any other store or community events then society will be less accepting, you dont see women going out dressed like that to the store, or the bank, or the mall. I like to dress in what is called feminine style, because I identify as a woman, and want to appear as a woman in public. What I want is for society to accept us as feminine males who prefer to dress as a woman, that is where I differ in my thoughts from some of the post's in here.

I am normal, and this is how i justify it:- i grew up being a normal boy in a normal home, its normal for humans to be curious,otherwise we'd never have gone to the moon, its normal to experiment, otherwise we'd never have been able to even make clothes.I stumbled into crossdressing because i was curious to see what i'd look like, i wanted to experiment to see what it felt like. I liked what i saw, I liked how it felt. I thought i looked pretty, that made me feel good, lets do it again see if i can improve on it, thats normal, thats how evolution sort of works,thats how scientists,artists,composers work when working on projects. The guilt afterwards is normal. In my opinion i believe that theres not a man alive today thats never tried crossdressing at what ever level,i think that it would be pretty abnormal if they say they hadn't or never ever thought of it. Its normal natural human behaviour to want to explore .

Interesting post, some of it naive, for example,

"but at the very core, do we identify ourselves by our tastes in food, soda, houses, or cars? No!"

Yes people do. It called status. Status, things people use to identify themselves with to show they are 'better' then other people.

Prime example of this is cars and houses. Big house, big car equals in our materialist society, lots of status/power. These are our society's values as twisted as they maybe. Going to good restaurant with egoistical cook. Why? Status. Lets face it food goes in one way and out the other, fulfilling our basic to run our bodies. Jobs; an overpaid actor/sportman are there to entertain us, yet a low paid health carer does more for society.

Status; rank, soical position, relative importance. These are some things that the majority of people in society define themselves by; the soda they drink, the food they eat, the house they live in and the car they drive.

Define normal?

Normal; conforming to standard; regular, usual, typical. Is the dictionary defination

Confoming to standard - nope, regular - yep usually once a day, usual - nope, typical - nope atypical.

Therefore I am not 'normal' or sane, which I quiet happy about.

Revolutions are good for society, only if the break the old habits of tradition
not replacing the old with the same.

As we old socialist say, "You never stop being a socialist, you just become more cynical with age"


Ok I know I've only take a small point from your post and expanded on it but it is, i believe, a fundmental point in your argument about being normal. To disreguard them out of hand saying they they are not important is wrong. So much of our Western Society is base on these 'status' symbols, it is what people define and aspire to is, the big house, the big car, drinking the right kind of soda. It how Western Society difines what normal is.

Normal equals sheep, comforming following the rules, being what you should be.

Abnormal equals an individual human, to look upon the stars and ask why are they there.

No offence meant just my :2c: :)

Hmmm why would I ever want to be considered "normal" . I am far from normal. I dress in sexy clothes both "male" and "female", become a superhero when I want to, I am gay (always have been since birth), I have fun at 50, I dance in the street, I sing out loud, I enjoy life no matter what it brings, I live my life as I see fit. "Normal" has never been me, not would I want that attached to me.

Once again, on the car/house issue. Perhaps I should phrase my argument this way. When someone asks you who you are, you don't respond with "I drive such-and-such a car" or "I live in a three story house." It's not central to your identity. Likewise, most people wouldn't say "I wear jeans and a t-shirt" or "I like brown shoes" in response to being asked who we are as a person. That is my argument regarding why the clothes we wear, the cars we drive, and the houses we live in.

and so on..and on.. so open ?

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dorisnycd

Hmmm why would I ever want to be considered "normal" . I am far from normal. I dress in sexy clothes both "male" and "female", become a superhero when I want to, I am gay (always have been since birth), I have fun at 50, I dance in the street, I sing out loud, I enjoy life no matter what it brings, I live my life as I see fit. "Normal" has never been me, not would I want that attached to me.

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:thumbsup::love:

I am lost on this one. When the gay community formed groups to fight for their rights they eventually dropped the tgirls and butch woman for fear that they would not be percieved as "normal". I am still fighting against that!

"normal" is something society tries to put on us. When asked "who r u?" ....I don't know anyone that respends with..."I am normal!". I would think that if I heard that come from someone I would instantly think they are not!.

The key is simple....be who u are in ur heart. Own that. Be that. Be happy.

The world and life is never "easy". But if you go through it honest to yourself, however u see that, then you can always look back and say...I was me!

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Originally Posted by Valerie Nicole

Once again, on the car/house issue. Perhaps I should phrase my argument this way. When someone asks you who you are, you don't respond with "I drive such-and-such a car" or "I live in a three story house." It's not central to your identity. Likewise, most people wouldn't say "I wear jeans and a t-shirt" or "I like brown shoes" in response to being asked who we are as a person. That is my argument regarding why the clothes we wear, the cars we drive, and the houses we live in.

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But there are people who do use these things to identify themselves with. To some people the car they drive, the label on their clothes and the houses they live in ARE central to their on personal indentity.

'When someone asks you who you are, you don't respond with "I drive such-and-such a car"'

But you do, you say "I drive a Ford, BMW, VW, Merc, Nissan etc"

I hate brown shoes.........

To some people the label on their jeans IS important, the size of their house and area they live in, IS important and central to their identity.

It is just navie to dismiss it out of hand

You may think they are shallow & vain, I do, but I also understand why they use these items to identify with.

To some their religion is important, others its their sports team, or their sexuality, the town/city they come from, their family and even a person's nationality can important and central to their identity.

A persons core values, the way they identify themselves can include materialist items and it is blinkered and navie to say they don't.

You can't place your on personal values/experiences onto other people.

We are all individuals and have our own unique life experience which set our own core values which we use to identify ourselves. To some their core values may include having a big house, a flash car and designer clothes, sad but true.

To dismiss it negates your argument.

Remember, to the majority of us on this forum not being 'normal' IS central to our own personal identity.