On the "freedom" of GGs to wear whatever they want

One thing I keep constantly seeing around here is these passive-aggressive complaints about how women are "free" to wear men's clothes without fearing retribution from society. I think this type of thinking is ignorant and harmful.

One thing everybody seems to forget is that past generations of women had to fight a long and hard battle against society to win this "freedom". They won it only because some women decided they'd had enough of dangerous, impractical clothing and were willing to fight to get it. They overcame all the narrow-minded men and even other women who wanted them to "stay in their place". Simply put, we're not going to win acceptance any easier, and we need all the friends we can get. What good does it really do when we attack women for enjoying the rights everybody should have had from the beginning?

If you look at how women are treated, you can easily see just how wrong this statement is. For every choice women have, society has a list of bullshit consequences for them. Sure, they can have the freedom to wear skirts, makeup, and long hair; but should they wear them they'll have to deal with every part of society that assumes that women dress the way they do for the sole purpose of giving men a hard-on. Sure, they have the "freedom" to opt for comfortable and durable men's wear, but if they make a habit of it, they'll have to endure the wrath of every part of society that feels threatened by the type of woman who doesn't care at all about how attractive she is to men. We CDs may know the disappointment of not being able to fit into something, but how many of us can say we understand what it's like to attach your very self-worth to whether or not you can fit into your jeans tomorrow morning?

Whenever you find yourself feeling jealous of this freedom women have, just try to understand what they have to go through everyday for it. Women had to fight for every freedom they enjoy today, and they--just like we--still have a long way to go. It can be hard to accept sometimes, but in some ways, we CDs have things a lot better than we think. Most importantly, none of this will improve unless we're willing to stand up and fight for them.

Wow. That got a bit longer than I expected :o

Hmm, I have to say that you have stated your case rather well! I haven't quite looked at the subject from that perspective before and you are quite right in your assessment. Thanks for altering my view on the "It's not fair" rant....

Kerry Lee

Dangerous clothing?

I can't picture any clothing that is dangerous. That's a far cry way to put it.
It's just material.

But you're right, it is because of the feminist foremothers that fought for the right to wear pants and baseball caps.

Now you will NEVER catch me in a baseball cap, that's too masculine for my taste.... But I love my boot cut and flair bluejeans.

Dear Mille,
You are quite right (in my opinion) woman have had to fight for every step of the way, and all power to their elbow. I remember my Mother not being able to obtain credit because she was a woman, my wife when we married wanted to keep her name, I did not blame her, but in those days neither her employer(BBC) or the social insurance would allow her to do so. The list goes on, and thank God times are a little better, I have two daughters, who still to this day have to fight to be treated equal at their work place. But I am not part of 50% of the population, I wish I was, and I do not have various organisations supporting me like trade unions, members of Parliament, national support groups, high profile celebrity journalist/broadcasters. I am as a CD a small percentage of the population, and even if we all on mass, like women did to get the vote or, Gay's (who represent a larger per cent of the population than CD'ers do) to obtain equal rights, we would not amount to any number. So I try to do the best I can, if I hear adverse comments or 'jokes' I say my piece. In the meantime let's organise!!!!!

Writing this manifesto in my nightie, Lesley Ann

i say "why should only women get to wear the fun clothes" :D

I'll accept your premise, women AND men are constantly being bombarded by gender messages that are aimed at creating "appropriate" behavior.

We just had a thread about some inane fashion show on The Tube called "What Not to Wear." So don't forget about "The Fashion Police." Those self-proclaimed experts that have been trying to manipulate women for many years. It's done to make a buck, and unfortunately a lot of women are just insecure enough to go along with it. They pull the same crap with young males, except the game gets more dangerous. In the male case, it's often aimed at convincing them that the only appropriate male behavior is to act like a "Thug."

You make a valid argument, just don't forget the idea that they will manipulate EVERYBODY, if they can. These days, nobody has it too good!

Peace and Love, Joanie

Well I'm not jeleous.... wear what you want, where you want......

You are right. As a society we still have a long way to go. Even as a sub culture, we sometimes tend to carry over the erroneous "standards" of society. Only when we are able to value individuals for who they are as people and what they are capable of accomplishing, what they wear notwithstanding, will we be able to say we have truly made progress.:)

I think it is great that women can wear what they want to wear. I believe we need to get out just like the women did 50 yrs ago. We need to go out enfemme so society will be more accepting.

This is an interesting thread. I read that early in the 20th and the late 19th centuries, it was against the law for women to wear pants. They faced arrest and possible jail time. One can think of Calamity Jane as a groundbreaker for wearing pants. I don't begrudge GG's for wearing jeans and t-shirts, I just wish I could wear what I want in public without facing ostracisim. Society is changing but we won't see change anytime soon. When I see a GG with a nice outfit, I do wish I could wear it and I try to copy as close as I can.

It comes down to people being unhappy with what they have. The grass is always greener on the other side, right? We want the right to be made up and beautiful, spending hours on our appearance, women want to be able to get out of bed, shower and dress and be out the door in 15 minutes like we can. Neither is going to happen any time soon. Sure, we can adopt the dressing habits of the opposite sex, but for the most part the end result won't be seen as appropriate for where we want to go. A woman can go frumpy if she's going to the laundry or working on her car. A guy can dress up if he's going to an appropriate CD place, known CD friendly stores for clothes or whatever. But for work, or socially, we're pretty much stuck with what we have right now, especially if we want to attract the opposite sex. Western society is changing, and I think within a hundred years or so we will be able to wear whatever we want, and it won't raise an eyebrow; but we're not there yet. Of course, if you don't care what anyone else thinks of you, you can do whatever you want to now; doesn't mean there won't be any ramifications, though.

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Originally Posted by Mille-feuille

One thing I keep constantly seeing around here is these passive-aggressive complaints about how women are "free" to wear men's clothes without fearing retribution from society. I think this type of thinking is ignorant and harmful.

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It remains a good argument to use with women who object to men wearing womens clothes because they are men not women. But you are right that often it is taken far too far from that reasonable point.

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One thing everybody seems to forget is that past generations of women had to fight a long and hard battle against society to win this "freedom". They won it only because some women decided they'd had enough of dangerous, impractical clothing and were willing to fight to get it.

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Ah, but there is more too it than that. Yes it is true that women in the workforce suffered accidents because of skirts caught in factory machinery etc. Yes it's true that freedom of movement to ride bicycles or swimming costumes less likely to cause drowning were big issues too.

However other parts of the fight came from Lesbians and Crossdressing Women! Risque fashions coupled with new notions of womens sexual freedom, much coming from France and Germany were a part of the womens movement that many homophobes and transphobes in the womens movement have tried to excise to seem more respectable and acceptable.

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They overcame all the narrow-minded men and even other women who wanted them to "stay in their place".

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Only for many to stab in the back the Lesbians, Crossdressers and Transexuals in their own movement telling them to "stay in their place".

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Simply put, we're not going to win acceptance any easier, and we need all the friends we can get. What good does it really do when we attack women for enjoying the rights everybody should have had from the beginning?

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Your right we should not attack them for enjoying those rights, only for opposing others from also enjoying those rights. Hypocracy is still acceptable to criticise. Attempting to erase the contribution of Lesbians, crossdressers and transexuals from the womens rights movements in the 1800's 1910's, 20's 30's 40's 50's 60's 70's 80's 90's and this century too is acceptible to criticise especially when those people helped get them the freedoms they now enjoy.

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If you look at how women are treated, you can easily see just how wrong this statement is. For every choice women have, society has a list of bullshit consequences for them. Sure, they can have the freedom to wear skirts, makeup, and long hair; but should they wear them they'll have to deal with every part of society that assumes that women dress the way they do for the sole purpose of giving men a hard-on. Sure, they have the "freedom" to opt for comfortable and durable men's wear, but if they make a habit of it, they'll have to endure the wrath of every part of society that feels threatened by the type of woman who doesn't care at all about how attractive she is to men.

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Thats a really important point to make! Women can only get away with so much masculine clothing before they too get condemned and judged.

But it is also often other women as well as men who do that judging! Other women who blame the victim for being raped because of the clothes they wear, who call other women Sk*nks Sl*ts and Dykes behind their backs because of what they wear.

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We CDs may know the disappointment of not being able to fit into something, but how many of us can say we understand what it's like to attach your very self-worth to whether or not you can fit into your jeans tomorrow morning?

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Considering the rise in eating disorders in men I think a lot of people fail to realise that men too suffer from these problems, not to the same frequency but that may just be a matter of time as the rate is climbing dramatically, all while hardly acknowledged by society.

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Whenever you find yourself feeling jealous of this freedom women have, just try to understand what they have to go through everyday for it. Women had to fight for every freedom they enjoy today, and they--just like we--still have a long way to go. It can be hard to accept sometimes, but in some ways, we CDs have things a lot better than we think. Most importantly, none of this will improve unless we're willing to stand up and fight for them.

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Absolutely. No civil rights issue was one by staying at home and hoping it would be fixed. Every single one was won by hard work, sacrifice, bravery and fighting. Women fought for the rights they have, some non-violently and some violently. Gays got theirs the same way and still are fighting for them today.

Transgender people have fought for their rights too, and we need to start celebrating those victories and heroes and heroines. And we need to remember never to do to others what has been done to us. Never to kick part of our community out or dump any of our allies to gain acceptibility. It wasn't right when others did it and it won't be right if we do. It's never acceptible.

We need to join in the fight for womens rights, and gay rights, and ethnic rights, and disabled rights etc cause we are all fighting different versions of the same fight and we are not worthy of having those freedoms unless we are willing to fight for them for everyone not just ourselves.

I'm a feminist. I support equal rights for women and I believe in strong confident women.

I think feminists didn't just do good for GG's, they helped the TG community indirectly in ways alot of people hadn't thought of, though I think most of yall probably had come to that conclusion because we are all smarter more enlightened ppl than conformists.

Very good Mille.:hugs:
Angie

In the 50's and 60's women who wore traditional male clothing were looked at askance, but they were not fired from their jobs for doing so. We have yet to reach the tipping point that women did 50 years ago.

RIGHT ON, Batty. Women & gay people have fought for a long time for their rights- little by little more & more people stood up for themselves- eventually, like rocks rolling down a hillside, it became more of an avalanche, helping to create the modern world.

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Originally Posted by Miss Tessa

I'm a feminist. I support equal rights for women and I believe in strong confident women.

I think feminists didn't just do good for GG's, they helped the TG community indirectly in ways alot of people hadn't thought of, though I think most of yall probably had come to that conclusion because we are all smarter more enlightened ppl than conformists.

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Indeed. And some femenists have and still do support TG issues.

Others have called for the banning of SRS and directly oppose all TG rights issues, even to the point of using threats of violence. Some feminists have expressed the most unbelievably abminable views on the rape and murder of TG people.

Yet there are feminists who directly and openly are on our side and fighting for our rights!

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Originally Posted by Fab Karen

RIGHT ON, Batty. Women & gay people have fought for a long time for their rights- little by little more & more people stood up for themselves- eventually, like rocks rolling down a hillside, it became more of an avalanche, helping to create the modern world.

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If this country keeps shifting to the right then we will never see the day that men can wear what they want in public. The right wing has been busy trying to take away any rights that gays have fought for and then will put women back in their place. When I see a GG wearing jeans and tshirts I applaude them for earning the right to do so. They don't do it because they are gay, but because they want choices(women like their frilly thing just as much). I would just like to do the same. Billie Jean

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Originally Posted by Lesley Ann

Dear Mille,
You are quite right (in my opinion) woman have had to fight for every step of the way, and all power to their elbow.

[ I AGREE 100%! + edited for size & clarity]

I am as a CD a small percentage of the population, and even if we all on mass, like women did to get the vote or, Gay's (who represent a larger per cent of the population than CD'ers do) to obtain equal rights, we would not amount to any number.
[edit for size & clarity]

Writing this manifesto in my nightie, Lesley Ann

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Ahem! Are we CERTAIN that Gays are a larger percentage than CD'ers? I'm Trans-Gendered as well as being technically CD, and I know, for example, that the perceived percentages of young (pre-18 year old) Trans-Kids is going up steadily - NOT (IMHO) because there are truly more, but rather because they are now 'Coming Out' and/or being Identified/Diagnosed more frequently - ie: They're just More Visible!

The Internet and 'Popular Television' (as well as the GLBTQ movement) has made gender diversity more 'Visible'. It took many years for the 'T' (Trans) to be added to the 'GLB' (Gay, Lesbian, Bi) Identity - I'd include CD's in the 'Q' (as in Queer, not in the 'Gay' sense, but in the 'Strange/Odd/Peculiar/Different...Not-Typical' sense of the word).

[I HATE:Angry3: Labels, for just this reason - Definitions Change!]

Perhaps there are more CD's than we/you think!:love:

I'm not really disagreeing or trying to start an argument, just suggesting a different possibility/opinion/idea! :)

Hugz:hugs:, Paula

ps: [SIZE="4"]Visibility leads to Acceptance! [/SIZE]

....she says as she realizes she's still closeted!:eek::o

Explanation, but not an excuse: My counselor STRONGLY recommended that I wait to come out, until I complete my Master's, next June (for financial reasons; :chained:I'd lose my scholarship, and I'm not brave enough to fight it through the courts.:bigsmack: Yes, I know, I'm selfish, and a coward.:spank:)
- but Then, I'll finally be 'Free at Last'!

:daydreaming:...I hadn't planned on a confession tonight, but....

...we have come far, but still have a long way to go.

I believe women and girls have pressures to look beautiful and as thin as possible. Advertising is geared to thin and well proportioned model types. Women don't all fit into this mold and it can be detrimental to some. Many girls feel they have to uphold a certain image and always have to deal with guys attraction and advances. It's not easy being a girl or woman. I certainly don't envy women or girls since they have to put up with so much. That certainly explains why girls and women opt for the casual look sometimes. If you are a girl why would you want to wear a dress all the time? I can see why girls would resist wearing dresses? They want to get away from always being a lady and so feminine. Who can blame them!

Great point raised in your thread!

emmi

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Originally Posted by Billie Jean

If this country keeps shifting to the right then we will never see the day that men can wear what they want in public. The right wing has been busy trying to take away any rights that gays have fought for and then will put women back in their place. When I see a GG wearing jeans and tshirts I applaude them for earning the right to do so. They don't do it because they are gay, but because they want choices(women like their frilly thing just as much). I would just like to do the same. Billie Jean

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I suggest you pay attention to what happens on January 20th. The rightwing fringe having a stranglehold on this country is over with.
You can wear what you want now, just that if you live in an area where diversity is a four-letter-word, it'll be a lot harder to do.

I say it is all your everyones mind, wear what makes you feel comfortable in. I would never in Male mode dress Professional, but in Female mode, I love too. I also wear girl jeans and pants alot everyday, of course I am 24/7 being who I really am, AMY.

You are not living your life if you are not being yourself. You are living a LIE and you will be set free when you finally realize it and can be yourself. I was living a Lie to myself and everyone else for 51 years and now I am free.

I always find these threads so amusing because they always wear the same issue but in men can and do wear women's clothing. I live in a city which has a huge student population and I regularly see guys walking around wearing make up or different items of female clothing. And nobody bats an eyelid.

All I can say is get off your arse and do it! You won't achieve anything by just whining about it.

Keep in mind these are my opinions. I may be right, I may be wrong, I may be a little of both.

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Originally Posted by emmicd

I believe women and girls have pressures to look beautiful and as thin as possible. Advertising is geared to thin and well proportioned model types. Women don't all fit into this mold and it can be detrimental to some.

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Advertising is often geared towards what men find attractive. Most women have learned that fashion, and being sexually attractive, are sometimes mutually exclusive. The key words here are 'well proportioned'. The vast majority of men are attracted to females with a waist to hip ratio of approximately 70%. Most women in their prime child bearing years will, barring illness, approach that percentage, at least close enough to differentiate themselves from male figures. Sometimes problems arise when a girl sees another female of quite different body proportions who is getting things in life that she herself isn't (very often, it's a particular male she wants, that another girl has). She sees it as a 'body type' thing, and becomes obsessed with trying to change herself into something that she can't, because she sees that as the only way to accomplish her goal.

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Many girls feel they have to uphold a certain image and always have to deal with guys attraction and advances. It's not easy being a girl or woman. I certainly don't envy women or girls since they have to put up with so much. That certainly explains why girls and women opt for the casual look sometimes. If you are a girl why would you want to wear a dress all the time? I can see why girls would resist wearing dresses? They want to get away from always being a lady and so feminine. Who can blame them!

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Oh yes, it can be so difficult dealing with the constant attention caused by being attractive to the opposite sex all the time (O.K, I'll sacrifice myself, hit me with the beauty stick, I'll endure all that attraction and those advances). But it's also difficult dealing with the reverse; being invisible to the opposite sex. If you're attractive and want to be left alone, there is always someplace you can go to get 'out of the spotlight'. But if you're not attractive, there is no way to do the opposite, and get all the attention you want.

I think much of it has to do with some girl's expectations of what their appearance will accomplish, and yes, when growing up they are told so often what they should look like to be successful. When they don't get what they want in a situation, they may blame their appearance, and become determined to change their situation by changing how they look. After all, it's worked so well in the past. Men are often attracted to a 'type'. When a woman is able to make herself into that 'type', she becomes attractive to that target male. But it doesn't always work; because sometimes whether he's attracted to her depends on something else entirely apart from her appearance.

But like so many other things, a small percentage of any group of people will take things too far. Various eating disorders have been blamed on society's pressures on young women to do whatever they have to, by changing how they look, to accomplish their desires.

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Originally Posted by Raya

One thing I keep constantly seeing around here is these passive-aggressive complaints about how women are "free" to wear men's clothes without fearing retribution from society. I think this type of thinking is ignorant and harmful.

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I agree with most of your analysis of the female struggle for equality. However, I disagree with your opening paragraph which makes it appear that crossdressers who have an admiration for women and the rights they have achieved are somehow taking a "passive-aggressive" attitude toward women and being ignorant. I like being a man, I love and admire women but I would not like to be one for many reasons including the fact that I think they have a far more difficult life than men, have more responsibilities piled upon them and are under far more pressure from their peers in matters such as appearance. However, being male is not without its own pressures, one of which is strict conformity to an artificial image of masculinity. This requires the wearing of drab, colourless clothing and the internalizing of most feelings and emotions. Over the course of a period of time (say a week), even though women must succumb to peer pressure about their appearance, they will have enjoyed a far greater variety of options regarding clothing, jewelry, makeup and in some cases even hair style, depending on their activities, than their male counterparts. For many, crossdressing is simply a means of escaping from the rigid demands of male existence, and enjoying a bit of what women have achieved for themselves. Call it envy, but it is not malicious, and drawing attention to this basic difference in society's attitudes can only help to increase understanding and acceptance.

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Originally Posted by Ema1234 Gg

I live in a city which has a huge student population and I regularly see guys walking around wearing make up or different items of female clothing. And nobody bats an eyelid

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You are observing a specific segment of the male population, i.e. student, age similarity, living away from home. If I, a 69 year old retiree, wore makeup to my family reunion or female clothing to do my gardening there would be plenty of eyelids batted and embarrassment all around.

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Originally Posted by Katie B

I'm not even sure that it's true that women can wear what they like, because the fashion fascists are lurking everywhere. Take these instances:

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This is true. However, the point is that while there are specific styles that are suitable for each situation, time or place, there can be a significant difference between each. They can be ultra feminine at a wedding, for instance, and super macho at the ball game, or refined but practical at the office. They can often choose between a dress, skirt and top, slacks and top or pant suit. They can wear a blouse, sweater, t-shirt, cami, halter top and so on, depending on occasion and weather. Such options are not as available to men. We are limited to "dress vs casual" in varying degrees depending on the occasion.

Veronica

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Originally Posted by emmicd

Advertising is geared to thin and well proportioned model types.

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Umm... Don't you mean anorexic? :idontknow:

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Originally Posted by Raya

One thing I keep constantly seeing around here is these passive-aggressive complaints about how women are "free" to wear men's clothes without fearing retribution from society. I think this type of thinking is ignorant and harmful.

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So when one section of society cannot exercise the same rights as another section of society they should not point out this inconsistency? Seems to me a healthy thing to do so that equality can be reached for all.

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What good does it really do when we attack women for enjoying the rights everybody should have had from the beginning?

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Why are you reading "attacking" women - why are you not reading people's desire to have the same rights? Are we CDs not bemoaning that fact that some people, both men and women, do not want CDs to have this freedom? Where are these specific attacks on women?

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but should they wear them they'll have to deal with every part of society that assumes that women dress the way they do for the sole purpose of giving men a hard-on.

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Funny, last time I listened, women always say they dress for themselves to please themselves. They did not dress for men. The only people who seem to think they dress for men is well...men.

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Women had to fight for every freedom they enjoy today

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Sure they did and guess what they stood up and pointed out the inequality where they as women did not have the same freedoms as men and complained about it over and over again building up momentum and slowly changed society's point of view until it became acceptable.

I have no idea why you think the CD community is blaming women when all we are doing is pointing out the inequality. That is part and parcel of the fight.

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Originally Posted by Satrana

So when one section of society cannot exercise the same rights as another section of society they should not point out this inconsistency? Seems to me a healthy thing to do so that equality can be reached for all.

I have no idea why you think the CD community is blaming women when all we are doing is pointing out the inequality. That is part and parcel of the fight.

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Firstly you as CDR's have the right in the free world to dress as you choose ....... now if you choose not to then that is YOUR CHOICE

There is no inequality except in your mind

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Originally Posted by Sheila

There is no inequality except in your mind

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Sure but I will lose my job, house, family, friends in the process. No inequality there......

I would like to dress in normal clothes of my choosing without putting everything in my life on the line.

You can say that quote to just about anyone facing inequality. What is stopping you, just do it!...... Except there are real consequences and that is the inequality I face not whether it is technically possible to do something or not.

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Originally Posted by Satrana

Sure but I will lose my job, house, family, friends in the process. No inequality there......

I would like to dress in normal clothes of my choosing without putting everything in my life on the line.

You can say that quote to just about anyone facing inequality. What is stopping you, just do it!...... Except there are real consequences and that is the inequality I face not whether it is technically possible to do something or not.

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You do not know that as a certainty . you make assumptions based on fear . and it's understandable we all do it:hugs::hugs:

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Originally Posted by sometimes_miss

Advertising is often geared towards what men find attractive.

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I've read articles on a jumber of studies that put mens average ideal woman as a size 14-16 (like Marilyn Monroe) curvaceuos figured redhead. Far from the deathly thin size 10 blondes that seem to be so frequently in magazine and telivision advertising.

I don't think advertising is at all keyed to what men find attractive. Otherwise those studies would have imediatetly shifted media advertising to curved redheads.

But being a curved size 16 redhead is easier for more women than being an emaciated blonde meaning that it would be easier for more women to fit that image, to consider themselves attractive when they fit that image and then they will shop less. Resulting in less profit.

Images of unattainable and impossible beauty associated with products, often with dubious claims, is a well-known successful way to sell things. The side effect may be that the majority of women, all of whom are beautiful in their own unique combination of all shapes sizes and colours think they are ugly and are miserable. To make a profit lives are harmed and ruined. And those who try and buck the trend find it hard to compete because the evil method is also efficient because the advertisers don't have to pay for the deadly consequences.

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Originally Posted by Sheila

You do not know that as a certainty . you make assumptions based on fear . and it's understandable we all do it:hugs::hugs:

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I think you need to look at some things. The Transgender Day of Rememberance to start with and the dissproportion of violence against and suicide of TG people, the bullying rates of TG kids, the divorce rates for TG people, the homelessness rates, the fact that in much of the 'free world' you can't discriminate based on sex, race or religion but you can sack someone for CDing in their oen time away from work or refuse to rent to them.

It's important to consider the difference between rights and legally recognised rights. It's important to recognise that peer pressure and oppression are real forces with real effects. Thats why in most of the 'free' world affirmative action was needed for minorities to begin to approach fair representation in the workforce politics and education because their is overt oppression and covert oppression.

These must be fought. But pretending they aren't there wont overcome them. We need to say 'these obstacles are in our path and we will make them visible, oppose them and dissassemble them!'

That is what has worked for every other civil rights movement. We are not any different!

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Originally Posted by Sheila

You do not know that as a certainty . you make assumptions based on fear

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Incorrect. I can guarantee that I would lose my job because I am the public face of my company, and if I don't find another well paying job quickly I can guarantee that I will lose my house. And I can guarantee that I would lose some family and friends because I know their feelings on matters of gender and sexuality.

I am not an irrational person, I don't fear things which are unlikely to ever happen. I do fear things which have a high certainty.

Crossdressers are amongst the most discriminated groups in society. While it is true that CDs usually grossly overestimate the degree of public hostility they are likely to encounter, this is often due to the fact that they are very careful how and where they crossdress and plan everything in advance.

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Satrana said: <snip> While it is true that CDs usually grossly overestimate the degree of public hostility they are likely to encounter, this is often due to the fact that they are very careful how and where they crossdress and plan everything in advance.

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It's not just the openly public hostility. It's the way people see us, and treat us, when we're not even yet aware of it, it's exactly the same as other minorities have been treated over the years. We're assumed to be 'lesser' qualified to do anything than others, and more likely to be somehow involved in illicit or criminal behavior. We're less likely to receive equal care because we're seen as less valuable to society.

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Originally Posted by Sheila

Firstly you as CDR's have the right in the free world to dress as you choose ....... now if you choose not to then that is YOUR CHOICE

There is no inequality except in your mind

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Hi Sheila,
Yes your right you can wear what you like just so long as you dont mind the consequences that may well come with it. Recently a work colleague found out that my fella dresses. Funnily enough she was in charge of diversity and equal opps when she worked for the council. Even more strangely enough she doesn't have much to say to me nowadays. In some places you can actually lose your job for it, although they dress it up as something else. I have been very surprised at just how narrow minded some employers have been about CDs and how ignorant they are of the CD community. There are still people out there that think if a man wants to wear womens clothes then he is a danger to certain groups of society, namely children. As I work in the childcare industry as a Development Officer I wouldn't like to take the chance that my employers wouldn't pass judgement.
I think one thing we are slightly overlooking in this thread though is the fact that when a women dresses in what has been traditionally classed as mens clothes she is often doing so for practical reasons or its a fashion statement, she isn't actually giving out the message to society that she wants to look like a man.
Take care
Bev

Bev,

I believe that it is an employers right to dictate proper attire wheil a person is at work and on the clock. On the other hand, when a person is not at work, the employer has no rights or cotrol over that person's life. As long as that person is not engaging in illegal activities, then their life in not the employer's business. In other words, if you are crossdressed and you run into someone from work while shopping at Walmart, it is not your employers business. The thing that really bothers me is that a lot of crossdressers cower in the closet forever because they are worried about being seen by someone that they work with. In my opinion, that is just wrong and is one of the reasons that crossdressers don't really advance as a group.

As any group. you can never, ever, ever allow anyone to strip you of your right to freedom! When you are not at work, you have the right to dress as you wish. I really wish that crossdressers wouldn't give society the right to usurp their basic freedom. Black people, gays, and other folks would NEVER stand for having their rights compromised.

On another related thought:

We have people at work that are alcoholics and always in trouble with the lae, others are nudists that belong to clube, some are wife-swappers! These folks are still employed. Why does everyone think that crossdressers are so bad? What really is the big-deal? I believe that many times part of the problem is in the crossdresser's mind. Look at Rudy Guilanni. He admitted to being a crossdresser and was a successful politician. If you don't make a big deal of it, then other folks probably won't either. Just don't do the crossdressing at work. It is illegal for an employer to fire a person for their private life's as long as they are not committing illegal acts.

If crossdressers live their life worried about encountering someone that they work with in their provate life then they are giving up their basic freedoms and probably won't advance as a group over the next 100 years. When you are not at work, get out there and be proud of who and what you are. You are not doing anything illegal, so please don't give you employer power over you when you are not on the clock. Please be part of the solution and don't give up our rights. If someone from work sees you, it is not your problem. You are not on the clock and therefore your employer is not paying you for how you are dressed.

It was not an easy road for any minority and there were battles to be fought and won. Also, most minorities stood up for their rights or they would not have the freedoms that they enjoy today.

:2c: Jamie

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Originally Posted by Bev06 GG

Hi Sheila,
Yes your right you can wear what you like just so long as you dont mind the consequences that may well come with it. Recently a work colleague found out that my fella dresses. Funnily enough she was in charge of diversity and equal opps when she worked for the council. Even more strangely enough she doesn't have much to say to me nowadays. In some places you can actually lose your job for it, although they dress it up as something else. I have been very surprised at just how narrow minded some employers have been about CDs and how ignorant they are of the CD community. There are still people out there that think if a man wants to wear womens clothes then he is a danger to certain groups of society, namely children. As I work in the childcare industry as a Development Officer I wouldn't like to take the chance that my employers wouldn't pass judgement.
I think one thing we are slightly overlooking in this thread though is the fact that when a women dresses in what has been traditionally classed as mens clothes she is often doing so for practical reasons or its a fashion statement, she isn't actually giving out the message to society that she wants to look like a man.
Take care
Bev

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Hi Jamie,
Not totally true honey. I work for County Council as a Childcare Development officer and on or off duty I am considered an ambassador for them and a role model for children. It has been made very clear that my conduct out of work definitely reflects on them. Now dont get me wrong they wouldn't sack me for something my partner was up to. I doubt if they would sack me if I were to cross dress. However, I dont think theyde be too keen on me being a drunkard out of work hours and would soon be looking for an excuse to get rid of me before i bought shame on them.
On the CD front and not letting someone have power over me and fighting a cause. I regularly defend CDing as most of my friends and associates know of my involvement through a dressing service I used to provide, eventhough mostly they dont know about my partner. However, I have to say its not my cause to fight Jamie. I think its about time some of the CDs who are always moaning about acceptance stood up and ruddy well fought at my side instead of hiding behind me and showed me the support that I am constantly showing them.
Take care
Bev

Getting back to the topic... ;)

We should surely not be judgemental about what others wear - if we wish the same respect to be applied to ourselves? :strugglin

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Originally Posted by Jamie001

I believe that it is an employers right to dictate proper attire wheil a person is at work and on the clock.

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This has in the past been used to deny employment to a variety of Religious and Cultural groups as well as to Women back before laws on men and womens apparel were relaxed.

As such it is vital that while an employer may be able to dictate standard of dress and have a uniform that this must always and without exception except for OH&S rules where completely unavoidable in any way allow for religious and cultural wear from a Christians crucifix to a Sihks turban to a Goths piercings.

So then it is only ever going to be just if the Employer can set a Uniform but the CD can choose either or even a combination of the two.

Untill this is the case the Employer is engaging in direct clear bigotry and oppression whether for their own bias or a perceived or actual bias in their customers.

A unifrom or clothes standard that does not allow for crossdressing is every bit as wrong as a whites only rule or a no religious-symbols rule.

It matters not an iota if it is legal. It is wrong!

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Originally Posted by Sheila

You do not know that as a certainty . you make assumptions based on fear . and it's understandable we all do it:hugs::hugs:

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Well, as much as I would like to think this is true... I've learned the hard way that its not.

In 97, just before I started dressin up, I met a pre-op TG who became a really good friend. She worked in a high paying job as a collections agent in the buildings where I worked as Director of Security.
Without going into the LONG story and all of its cruelties... she was "discovered" by a coworker while changing in the ladies room. She had been at that company for 10 years and no one batted an eye until that day. Legally, there was nothing anyone could do about her being there as she had a spotless record, BUT... the supervisors started writing her up for mundane things that were overlooked previously and "complaints" were filed anonymously with building management about "That thing on the 6th floor" weekly by the same group from her company. Everyone knew who they were, but no one did anything.
Management even went as far to advise me not to talk to her while on my lunchbreak because it owuld be bad for the company (although they could never explain their reasoning for such assinine statements). I refused to change how I conducted my normal day to day work and was "removed" from my job through a contract rewrite that effectively did away with my position.
My friend was fired from her job a week later.

None of this was RIGHT! Nothing had changed within the work place or performance of such work other than people KNEW there was a TG in their midst and did everything within their power to remove her and anyone associating with her.

I dont regret losing my job over being true to myself and my friends,but I do regret having to work for people who are ignorant.

Anyways... thats my story ;)

*hugs*

Zarabeth

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Originally Posted by Jamie001

As any group. you can never, ever, ever allow anyone to strip you of your right to freedom! When you are not at work, you have the right to dress as you wish. I really wish that crossdressers wouldn't give society the right to usurp their basic freedom. Black people, gays, and other folks would NEVER stand for having their rights compromised.

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They did consent to having their rights compromised until very recently. It takes time for a community to organize and convince itself that it should stand up for its rights. The CD community is very young and very fragmented. We talk to each other anonymously over the internet, most CDs never attend any CD events. As isolated individuals we naturally look after our own interests first.

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Look at Rudy Guilanni. He admitted to being a crossdresser and was a successful politician.

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He never admitted to being a CD, he crossdressed for publicity/charity events.

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If you don't make a big deal of it, then other folks probably won't either.

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Depends on what the behavior is. Would you want to work alongside a convicted child molester or someone who belonged to the local Nazi party? If the behavior is considered a threat or sufficiently immoral then people will act against you.

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so please don't give you employer power over you when you are not on the clock.

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All the employment contracts I have signed have contained clauses which gives them to right to fire you if you give cause for embarrassment to the company. This is lawful and common to anyone who deals with the public on behalf of the company.

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Originally Posted by Jamie001

Bev,

On the other hand, when a person is not at work, the employer has no rights or cotrol over that person's life. As long as that person is not engaging in illegal activities, then their life in not the employer's business. In other words, if you are crossdressed and you run into someone from work while shopping at Walmart, it is not your employers business. The thing that really bothers me is that a lot of crossdressers cower in the closet forever because they are worried about being seen by someone that they work with. In my opinion, that is just wrong and is one of the reasons that crossdressers don't really advance as a group.

........It is illegal for an employer to fire a person for their private life's as long as they are not committing illegal acts.

........If someone from work sees you, it is not your problem. You are not on the clock and therefore your employer is not paying you for how you are dressed........

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Did you not hear about the CD'er truck driver for Winn-Dixie that had nearly 20 years of good work that was fired for exactly that - dressing in his "off time"? Even the ACLU would/could not help him. His company asked him if he was Gay and when he said he wasn't, they fired him. This was all on the national news a few years ago.

Does anyone know any further on that story?

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Originally Posted by LACD

Society is changing but we won't see change anytime soon.

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I know that with the internet we have people viewing from all over the world, and possibly from space, even (Wonder if there are any CrossDressing Martians???). However, I live in the US so can really only speak from that point of view.

Our country was founded in the 1700's, our constitution wasn't amended until 1920 to allow women the right to vote.There were 18 amendments prior to that one, by the way.

Society is slow to change, as you have to change the minds of a lot of people in order to make that change happen, and some of those minds are pretty Neanderthal, which isn't pretty, matter of fact.

Kate

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Originally Posted by Jamie001

As any group. you can never, ever, ever allow anyone to strip you of your right to freedom!

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People not only allow folks to strip them of their freedoms, they hand them over on a silver platter. Usually to the government. Usually out of fear. People in a group can be very cattle-like. One sees something that spooks it and starts running away and the rest run away also.

"Why you running, Bossie?"

"I don't know, that Gurnsey over there started running and I don't wanna get caught by whatever scared her!"

I don't know if a large portion of voters are stupid or simply don't bother to figure out what a proposed law means before they vote on it or allow their "representatives" to vote on it, but a lot of laws are like chocolate covered turds, they look nice or have a nice name, but what's really in there is nothing like the name implies at all.

I don't want to turn this political so I won't mention specifics, but I have great fear for the future of all countries if people don't start worrying about their freedoms and start holding on to them dearly.

Kate