Printable View
I've been thinking about this alot lately. That maybe one day we as people could walk out our doors wearing what we wanted to wear without the need to try to (pass) as women. That one day if I wake up and decide today i'm gonna put my favorite top and skirt on and just go out the door. It would be nice if one day this would come true.
How about the rest of your thoughts on this.
ttfn
Brenda, I would like to think that day will come but for now having a few that are accepting and one being my late wife's sister is so great. When she comes over there is no panic or changing because she expects me to be dressed and have makeup on. But back to the question; there is a slow movement to accept this life style but again it's slow. Huggs Keli
A lot depends where you live, I spent most of my life in New Orleans and dressed all the time and there it is a life style people don't think twice about. Now that I have retired and moved into the bible belt if people knew I would be tar and feather. Hay it doesn't stop me as I still can go out and blend in with no problem. Maybe one day people will wise up as they have done with gay and lesbian's but I don't believe in our time. :hugs:
Sadly, I don't expect it to happen in my lifetime, Brenda, if at all.
I feel that to many men see it as an affront to their sexuality or as a challenge to the way they see themselves in their own gender rather than a freedom of expression.I had to grow out of my stereotypes and it took a while,of coarse now I see it from the angle of a CD.If people could ask themselves this,"does the fact that I don't understand something make it wrong"?
We all could benefit from being less critical of others decisions,I for one am much happier in the realization that it is not mine to evaluate others or their decisions regarding anything.
It seems to me that the younger generation is more accepting of how we dress. But then I thought the same thing in 1974 and now all those Hippies/Yuppies are grass roots conservatives who have no qualms about driving our economy and country into the ground and have forgotten how they wanted to make the world better for everyone and now only worry what color their parachute is.
Maybe things will change :daydreaming:
i agree. maybe in 25 yrs from now.Quote:
Originally Posted by KarenSusan
sue ellan
life is like a roll of tp the closer to the end the faster goes.
I have to agree with Carol A, alot has to do with the area larger cities seem to be more tolerable /acceptable than smaller towns.
I think people are a lot more accepting than you would think. At least tolerant, which is a start. Don't expect anyone to roll out a red carpet for you, but I think most people plain don't care what you wear.
Yvonne
It starts with becomming more accepting of ourselves.
It depends on how you define "accepting". In some form, society already does accept cd's. The same way society accepts those with tattoos, body piercings, Goth look and more.
In others words, NO society is completely accepting of ANYTHING! You always have some that don't care, while others are horrified. Also it depends on WHERE you are. Heck the middle east does not accept Americans as a whole, say nothing about crossdressing!
So you have to think of the big picture. Are gays accepted now? Some would say yes, while others would say not even close. Say your gay in Iran and you'll be dead before the next day.
To me cd's are already accepted in the states and UK. But will you ever not see anyone throw you a hurtful look? No, not ever. Just like gays, people in wheelchairs and girls who dye their hair pink.
Yes... It just needs to become cool to cd and that'll happen when we as a group stress less about doing it.
I think that the more we accept and stand up for ourselves the more society will accept us. There will always be someone who will ridicule and make fun of the man in a dress, but that number will dwindle as we gain strength in our resolve to be who we are.
Doubt it will ever happen by "asking permission" or wishful thinking my friend. It depends on how much we care about what others think and how much that affects being who we are.:)
Let's hope not! Half the fun of CDing is poking my finger in the eye of the bourgeoisie.:eek: The other half can't be discussed on this forum.:devil:
I think we're being a little too liberal in our fondest desires, here. We will never be accepted by everyone, and it is usually those last stragglers who harbor the most hatred for things they don't understand.
Will we be safe walking down the street on a given day? Probably, and soon. Would we still have to worry about those dark corners? Definitely.
For a more historical comparison, society as a whole has no issue with African Americans, but you'd better believe that there are still plenty of people out there who would harm any of them if given the chance. It's truly a sad commentary on humanity that differences are less often celebrated than feared.
Not as long as rubbish like Jerry Springer, Doctor Phil, etc continue to exploit and objectify us. Not as long they continue to believe that the drag queen culture and its more outrageous participants are what we are.
Huggles
Toni-Lynn
I'm sorry that Jerry's show did damage to so many groups of people, but that was really because so many people were willing participants to it. Their own fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni_Lynn
Jerry is actually very intelligent, he's a former mayor, and very liberal. I can't honestly blame the man for just trying to make money. Listen to his NPR show sometime.
Accepted or not, I don't care. I want to pass as a woman. Otherwise, there is no point for me. But I'm more TS who can't transition than a crossdresser.
Warm regards,
Christina Nicole
Before I started going en femme I didn't think that many people wou7ld be accepting, but it seems exactly the opposite is true. THere are a lot of places where I can go and noone would say anything and just treat you like they would anyone else. Most people just don't take any notice of you even if they do clock you. I was out last night and I was clocked on the way to the bar where I was going, probably more than once and noone said anything to me. I even got a lot of praise from a girl who was about 20 and she even kissed me on the cheek before she left. I think the younger generation are accepting of us and most of the others just don't really care what we wear.:)
You all have alot of different and interesting thoughts. Lets hear more of them from those of you who read this but didn't care enough to comment. I still look forward to the day I can walk out the door wearing femme clothes with no make up,wig or different walk to pass.
To be honest with you I just enjoy wearing the femme clothes without all the other stuff. It takes alot of effort and time to make ourselves look female to blend in. Time and effort i'm growing tired of but still I do it just to be able to walk outside wearing my girlie clothes.
ttfn
accepted? - maybe in urban areas
tolerated? - more likely for the most part
approved of? - nope, not in my lifetime
do i care? - not in the least
would it matter? - not much, it's an inside job
You make a fair point, Carole. The younger generation does tend to be more accepting, women in particular.Quote:
Originally Posted by CDCarole
I agre with the posts stating that we will never be accepted by everyone, but I do believe that we will be accepted by the majority of our culture eventually. Look at how many things have changed and become socially accepted in the last 50 years. And, mostly these changes come through education. When society becomes informed enough to realize that we are not a threat to them and that we are just expressing ourselves, they become more tolerant. And as we gain acceptance when we interact with mainstream people they will realize that we are just like they are. We are people who have our individual desires and interests just like everyone else. Even in manly mode and associating with male friends, I do not have the EXACT same interests or hobbies as they do. Yet, we are friends because of SOME of our interests. So, as we present ourselves in public with the same behavior we normally have, society will become more tolerant and eventually more accepting to the point of not really caring what we as individuals do or how we dress.
In that ye harm none, do what ye will
I think it's inevitable that society will become more accepting as time goes on. Just look at the strides made by the gay and lesbian community over the past forty or fifty years. With CDs, it's already starting to happen, at least in more urban areas and among the younger generation.
Crystal
Yes, but for society to be more accepting it has to see more of us. The more CDers that come out of the closet and live their lives as ordinary people, the more accepting society will become. Most people think of us as Drag Queens or some other sort of weirdo. Once people see that, in most respects, we're ordinary people who just want to go about our lives, acceptance will come.
Not everyone, no matter what their "bent" is is accepted everywhere. We are no exception. Also, one can't legislate the way people feel. People are entitled to their opinions. I mean people don't HAVE to like us or what we do or are. What we should be shooting for is (at least) knowledge that we are not all weirdos (thank you Jerry Springer, and movies that portray so many Cd, and Tg people as serial killers and perverts), that what we are doing is not illegal, and that social politeness applies to us, just like the other lifestyles that fit the first 2 points of this sentence. It would also be nice if people would call out those people that speak unkind, untrue, etc. remarks about us. That will take some time I am afraid, and more than 25 yrs. However, unless we ourselves continue to go out and meet people, and educate them, all they will have to believe in will be what's on tv and the movies. Sooooooo...... get out there ladies, have fun, and engage freely with people that are curious. That is an opportunity we should embrace!!!:gh:
It would be nice to think so but I don't think it will happen in my life.
time
Sadly I don't think it CDing will ever be accepted in mainstream society. If a person who crossdresses doesn't accept themselves then how is society expect to do so. Then there are the CD's who just dress for the sexual thrill so can you imagine a 50 something year old man who looks like a lumberjack showing up at a local Walmart dressed in a mini skirt and heels?
Another example of why we will never be accepted is because so many of us won't even share something as important as our feminine side with our wife or SO before we get into a relationship with them, instead we hide it for years then spring it on them later and expect them to be supportive.
I'm sure I will offend someone with these remarks but please understand I don't mean to offend anyone here, everyone has been so nice in welcoming me to this forum and for that I am thankful to all of you.
Just my thoughts
Linda
If society would change to accept the feminine more... if the dominant paradigm was not patriarchal and masculine, and instead would honor the feminine (and Divine Feminine)... the world would be better for women, girls, the transgendered, GLB, etc... Let us work to make it so...
Don't make me start the ::coughLiberalHandWringingcough::, please, cause I'll totally do it. I'm a liberal, and yes, there are places in the world where women do not get treated equally, but by the same token, I get the same crap because I'm a tall white male in reverse discrimination.Quote:
Originally Posted by Debutante
Women, and conversely, we, need to go out and make our own way in the world, and one-up the people who try to stand in our way. You need to let their crap just make you stronger. Sorry if this opinion makes anyone here get ancy, but I've seen too many people complain that they're being held back for one reason or another, when it's more that they allow themselves to be held back so they can be a victim.
As was already said here, I think that the more we accept ourselves, and work with our loved ones to accept us, the faster everyone can accept us. We just need to destroy the stereotypes that surround what we do and live how we want.
Sorry but that is such a generalized statement that it's just incorrect. And the economy is off topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
I predict that crossdressing will be acceptable in the year 2080. To bad I won't be around to say I told you so...
Yes! of course we have to do the work... do our part... struggle for personal change...I know that. I was making a macro observation. But a fundamental change to a feminine paradigm certainly is a goal we might strive for...Quote:
Originally Posted by kathrynjanos
In the late 80's when I finally got my hands on some goth clothing goths were feared, hated and not acepted. Today there is one that goes against stereotype on NCIS, there are Goth kids shows. It's been about 10 years since i got a shouted insult or bad reaction for being goth.
General acceptance for extremely different and hated people is possible within 10 years at least and my daily life as a Goth proves that!
And Goths didn't conform, didn't tone-down, didn't try to fit in but did the opposite. Were outrageous and weird. We sat in parks and discussed poetry, we moved through shopping malls alone and in groups. And we bought goth things from stores and made and sold goth things at markets and eventually the internet.
The end result? Even in rural towns there are out goths, there is globally goth media of every imaginable sort, goth video games, goth industry, goth business, goth market.
And people realised we were mostly friendly, polite, intelligent and harmless.
In the western world goths are widely accepted.
Us crossdressers can do exactly the same. Carefully to be safe (most goths stuck to specific accepting clubs and to public places at first where violence is uncommon) but we can.
Progress isn't inevitable. Change happens when people change things and encourage others to do the same. Peiople have been making the change thus far. So long as more join them more will change but if they are not helped then when the generations change and older changers burn out from exhaustion it can collapse.
So then, we are all benefiting now from the work of CDs and TSs and DQs and DKs of the last several decades.
The question you must ask is, do you want things to keep changing? Then join in bringing about the change! Do you want things to change faster? Then do more to change things!
But if you don't help you are not just riding the coat-tails of the hard work of others but also risking all that has been gained thus far!
CDing has been accepted in many societies throughout history. Cding can be accepted generally within our lifetimes!
So then, what will you do about getting that acceptance?
It depends (to a degree) where you live, some places seem to be more backward than others - but I'd say in many places it's already happened?Quote:
Originally Posted by KarenSusan
I've just got home after attending a 40th birthday party in the Midlands (in a football club bar) - Kieron & I were the only trans people there and we were welcomed and completely accepted by people of all ages (8-70)?
It's my experience that we often meet with approval and encouragement, for being brave enough to show the world who we really are... Don't underestimate ordinary, decent people?Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily01
Society's not just gonna change by itself though, is it? It will only change by the actions of us as individuals showing others we exist and that we're nothing to fear or despise? :strugglinQuote:
Originally Posted by Debutante
Yes goth people are more accepted now. The one BIG difference is goth people aren't trying to live as a different gender. They are just changing thier appearance to the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
It's quite a bit different for CD's we've got to change our appearance to that of the other gender in order to be who we are.
It is a good example of how society changes and accepts different types of people but getting society to accept a gender bender or CD will be quite alot more difficult.
Hope i didn't offend you.
ttfn
I'm not offended.Quote:
Originally Posted by bredalee25
But it's true that for many people mixing gender is seen as worse than crossing over from one gender to the other. Yet Goth is filled with Gender Mixing.
Just look at Marilyn Manson for starters. Guys in makeup with painted nails and man-skirts are common amongst goths.
Thats all gender-bending, and of a more confronting form than a conservatively dressed CD who fits peoples expectations. And yet it is getting regular acceptance!
But, the thing is, Drag Queens are ordinary people, too! They might be more flamboyant and out there than the average CDer, but they are no more weird than you are. The average person who doesn't struggle with gender identity just has no reason to learn what all the different types and levels of gender are. Since I found out about my SO's crossdressing, I have made a point to learn about these things, but before that, I didn't realize there was a difference between being transsexual and transgendered, I had NO clue what cisgendered was, I thought transsexual, transgendered and drag queen were interchangable... It's just a question of education, really, and public perception. But, yeah. Drag queens? No weirder than a cross dresser. Just different.Quote:
Originally Posted by PamelaTX
Well, but not all CDers are trying to live as a different gender. I've read a huge amount of posts here from CDers who don't give a hoot if they're read. My SO has no desire to present as a woman-- he likes to wear a bra and forms with his regular clothes (though he does wear significantly tighter tops when he's in the forms. :heehee:).Quote:
Originally Posted by bredalee25
And, really, there are people out there who would argue that CDers are "just trying to change their appearance to the world." You would probably argue that, and say, "How do YOU know? You don't CD, you don't know what it's like." You would be correct-- but it's just as impertinent for you to assume you know what goth kids have gone through, and what they are trying to portray to the outside world.
There is no hierarchy of suffering, here. Goth kids don't have it any better or worse-- they just have different struggles.
ETA: So, yeah! I never answered the OP. I think CDers will eventually be more accepted, yes. It's already happening. Anyone here into anime and manga? They are chock full of gender bending! I think things will continue to become more open. I also think there will always be close-minded people who won't accept anyone who is different from the 'norm.' Fifty years ago, do you think ANYONE would have thought that gay couples would be able to legally get married ANYWHERE? It's still a struggle. It's still not legal everywhere. Gays are still persecuted. But do you see the progress that has been made? It's not enough, I don't think, and I am still horrified about the whole Prop 8 thing, but if you compare it to where this country was fifty years ago, it's like night and day. I think that same thing can happen with CDing.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
Margaret Mead
Yes, Vicki... as I said just at the end of my quote:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicki B
"let us work to make it so".
Changing the paradigm isn't done by a simple wish... It takes work. But educating ourselving as to the greater problem is a start -- and we start by taking small individual steps, changing (by accepting ) ourselves, working as groups, doing coalition work, getting ourselves out there in public, speaking with friends, doing education, etc. etc.
I did political work in the Boston area in the 1990s: co-founded a TG support group: AXA; founded the Trans Gendered Alliance -- which did political work for the political and civil rights of the transgendered.
we have seven chidren, ranging in age from 22 down to 14. All of them accept thier father as a transgendered person. And all their close friends and partners do too.
As their mother I am very proud of each of them. This is how we raised them, to be accepting (not just tolerant) of all people, regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, religion.
Carin and I are going through a divorce. It is incredibly hard for both of us. We have tired to honor respect and integrity throughout this process. For ourselves and most importanly our children.
On Tuesday we will welcome in a new president. I did not believe we would see a person of color as president in my own lifetime. And I will see it and celebrate.
I do believe that in our lifetimes we will see full acceptance of the transgended community.
Louise.
I doubt it will happen in my lifetime...
Not anytime soon, I'm afraid
JoAnne Wheeler
In time, people will be able to dress however they want. Society's big problem with anything sexual, whether overly sexual in appearance or nature, or non-conforming to one sex or the other, will subside. Look how different things are now from the 50's.
As the generations of small-minded, different-hating, intolerant people die off, the rules will change because each new generation is more accepting of social differences than the last. The problem is I, and many of us, will die off with them. :( Our time is unfortunately not infinite.
To echo many of the other posts, I believe it will happen. I just won't be around or young enough to enjoy the benefits.
For the record, I'm one of those who wants to pass, period. I don't have any problem with anyone who doesn't mind looking like a man in women's clothes - to each his/her own. I prefer to look like a woman when I'm wearing women's clothes. I love women so much, I really want to look as feminine as possible when I dress. I wouldn't want to be seen en femme unless I was completely made up and could achieve a minimum level of passibility, even if society accepted crossdressing as a normal form of self-expression rather than some horrible deviant behavior.
If history does in fact repeat itself then yes men will get to wear intimate apparal. In the past men wore corsets, wigs and long flowing gowns. I want to know which of our stupid forefathers gave up our right.
(a simple one word answer)
[SIZE="4"]
NO[/SIZE]
I work and socialise as Mirani.
I know having my own business helps, as I make my own rules!
Before Christmas, I met with my account manager at the bank. I told her that I wanted to sign papers and cheques as Mirani. She said "easy" all I did was give a specimen signature and she added Mirani to the account.
I live in Brighton. I am treated as an "ordinary" person whatever I do, wherever I go. Sometimes I am as invisible as anyone else, just going about my business. Sometimes I am seen as a guy dressing as a woman.
I am accepted here.
Society is accepting TG's more than used to. Now if we can just get more employers to hire us for our capabilities instead of what they see. Some do hire TG's I would just like to see all do this. Be nice to see a TG in the White House.
Hugs,
Tamera
Pre-emptive apologies to anyone this may insult
Father Pat and father Mike were walking and Pat says, "Mike do you ever think priests will be allowed to marry?" and Mike answers "Not in our lifetime but maybe in our children's lifetime." I think that may apply to us...maybe in our children's
I suspect Lori is headed for time out on that
I'm guessing you mean me.. :heehee:Quote:
Originally Posted by Debutante
I was trying to use your words as a more general prompt for people - I didn't intend to question your individual commitment, sorry.