Whose decision is it?

My wife once asked me, " Would you really be ready to lose your wife, family, and friends because of your crossdressing...?" We went into a vast discussion about whether cding was an addiction, etc, I told her I didn't want to lose anything, but...it sorta wasn't up to me about the losing part. That was up to her, and the kids and friends (if they found out) individually. I have been thinking about this and similar ideas.

My question is : Are we actually choosing cding over wife and family if we leave, or is it that the wife or family or friends are making choices themselves that require us to leave? For instance, if your wife says, " I can't handle this...don't want the kids involved with your cding... you need to move out..." , is leaving/divorcing really our decision? Wouldn't we be willing to stay if the wife and family were ok with it? Or not? Do some of us need to split (even with family acceptance) from the wife/family?

Clearly, if someones decides to leave without pressure from wife and family it is their own decision, and I would say, yes they are choosing this over wife/family. I am not debating the merits of that (maybe they were Ts, or almost TS), just saying they made their decision based on what they thought was best, but it was their choice.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

I can't say much about loosing a wife since I am single happy at the moment, but I can say somethings about loosing friends.

When I came out about being bisexual several years ago I lost most of my friends but I did not see that as something negative. If they can not accept something that is so much part of myself why should I care and are they even really my friends?
Since then I have found many more much better and more accepting friends.

You can always find more friends. A new wife is not so easy.
Personally I do not think I would ever have started to crossdressed if I was happily married, there would be no need for me. But I do understand that the situation are so much different for most others.
Since the choice for many are not between CDing and the wife but between CDing and being unhappy and possible suicidal for the rest of their lives I think the question in itself are wrong.

Lisa, I suppose in this case, I am pre-supposing that there IS a wife or SO involved. So let's make that an assumption. I am not saying don't post if your situation is different, because many people may have valid ideas whether that's the case or not.

I don't think the questions I am asking are "wrong". Let me try another way to explain what I mean. The reason you may chose (or have chosen for you) to leave may very well be because you will be very unhappy if you don't cd. Why would you be unhappy? If your wife (assuming you have one) was supporting your decision , you wouldn't be unhappy would you? The only way that I see that you would be unhappy, is if she didn't support you and/or asked you to leave. In that case, assuming your mental make-up and/or need to crossdress or transition was very strong, you would have to leave imo. At that point, whose decision is it---yours because you have to leave, or hers, because she wouldn't allow you to stay? I am not trying to play the blame game here. I just don't feel it's a simple as saying "You are choosing Cding over your wife and family." There would be multiple people, making multiple decisions.

Choosing to Cd or transition, may be choosing between cding and unhappiness, suicidal thoughts, and other things. But, it may ALSO be choosing that over wife and family.

Let me ask you this,

Was your wife aware of CD condition before you were married???

In other words, were you cross-dressing while you were dating her and she saw you like this and liked it?

Karen

I think the big problem is that most people think CD'ing is a hobby or something, like we just picked it up for fun. When viewed in that perspective, I can see how some people think it's a choice we make just to tick them off. Basically, they just don't understand. No one in their right mind would choose something like this. It's not a choice, any more than 'choosing' to grow old is.

Lisa,

My "dressing " preceded any chosen relationship. It was there from my earliest memories and continues today. I have not always been truthful about myself and didn't reveal that part of me. That is where the choice is. Being real - The choice is ours.

If you lose everything and everyone it is because they never really knew you. Breach Trust, sneak, decieve and lie well then the choice become theirs. Of course everyone owns their own right to make any decision or judgement relating to their own beliefs.

Ultimately I believe the decision is whether to be honest or not and let the chips fall where the may. (the words are sometimes easier than the practice)
IMO Kelsy

PS they don't call it disphoria for nothing!! sorry for rambling

Since my wife supports and encourages me, doubt if I will be asked to leave or give it up.

My SO is my best girl friend also.
I was never "ready" to lose her because of my need to express my femininity, but there came a point when it became clear to me that this is so much a part of me that no matter what I had to be able to explore and express it.
I'm thankful that it never came to losing her and that she was so loving and wonderful that she gave me an opportunity to show her this part of me and has come to accept it and be at my side with love and caring.
She's also my foil for my style, makeup and carriage. She helps me in every way...I'm blessed, what can I say.:love:

Maybe you should look a little deeper and ask yourself if there is something else that would cause her to leave. I believe it's not the cross dressing that causes a wife to run the other way but the systems of cross dressing such as lies, sneaking, being selfish, cheating or what ever. Maybe she's using cross dressing as an excuse and denying the real reasons.

I think you're asking a retorical question, if u want us to ask ourselves that question?

In the same vein, it's IMPOSSIBLE for us to answer it for u! Because we CAN'T know all the details involved in your relationship! If u NEED to blame your spouse for a breakup, u will no matter what we say! Or, u may blame yourself, no matter what!:doh:

My marriage broke up, and it had NOTHING to do with my CDing. I suspect that in most cases of CDing, when the TG individual doesn't go overboard with his dressing, the marriage was failing anyway! It's handy for a spouse to blame the breakup on CDing. But, I suspect that it's VERY RARELY the only, or main, reason!:brolleyes:

Cding is not an addiction, although like anything, it can turn in to one in some people. I think that is heavily personality-based, rather than addition by default. Some people get addicted to video games, whereas most people do not, but couldn't give them up (forever) if they tried. Get my point?

Replace cding as the boiling point in a marriage with any other potential marriage rocker. Any area in which a wife and husband cannot come to terms on is a potential nuptial-breaker:

* A man who spends too much time out with friends who is not willing to give up his active social life for his wife/family. This social life may or may not cause neglect of his family, but his wife may not be able to handle it.

* A man who is a workoholic and takes work home with him and ever free moment of his day he spends calculating work strategies or whatever other work related thing. He may be a good provider and there for his kids, but his wife may feel that she needs to be more important (or have more time devoted to her) than his work.

* A man who is an avid motorcycle enthusiast and spends a great deal of his time working on his bike, polishing it, taking it to shows, riding with friends, etc. Perhaps his wife may feel that he puts himself in danger riding it so often and spends more time with his bike than with her (or at least in her mind). If he's got cycling in his blood, as many bikers do, it isn't going away because he got married.

Crossdressing is a little different because to many people, it is still considered an illness, deviant behavior, something to shelter kids from, and something that can be cured with therapy. I think that's where the thick of the problem lays with this as a marital issue. But aside from that, cding is just like any other personal trait a man might have that his wife may not be accepting of, or so it is in my opinion. And just like any other personal trait, a man might spend too much time focused on his cding and not enough time with his family - but in that respect, every family has a different balance. Some marriages work well with a husband and wife that are not together much of the time, and some marriages only work well when they spend a lot of time together.

If you are like me, I started cd'ing long before I met my wife. I truly love my wife but cd'ing is a permanent part of who I am. I know that if I give up crossdressing, it will come back, it just can't be turned on and off like a light switch. Someone posted that they had not dressed for a substantial period of time and do not miss dressing. I gave it up for about 5 years but my urge to dress has been back for about the last 15 years and I have been doing it for about 50 years. I don't want to lose my wife and family and I'm fairly certain that you feel the same way. What you have to convince your wife about is that your cd'ing is a permanent part of you and you may be able to suppress it sometimes but that the urge to dress will return.

I think the problem a lot of people have with crossdressing is they believe it's a hobby or an addiction. Honestly it's just a personal taste in clothes. For me I prefer wearing khaki pants to jeans. Nobody has a problem with that. But I also have a preference for wearing skirts. So just because I want to wear something made for a female all of a sudden it turns into something more than the simple act of getting dressed in the morning? Everybody has the right to decide what kind of clothes they want to wear. Or at least they should.

If more people would accept crossdressing it would not be a big deal at all. It's just clothes. That's it. I guess I still don't get what the big deal is with crossdressing.

Good question! I will try to deal with it on a number of levels.

The urge to CD never goes away ... so in that sense, I do not think any decision is involved. You and you wife can choose, however, how accepting of it you ought to be.

Read the threads here, and you will notice that for a great many of us, personal acceptance is/was a long journey, involving much guilt ansd many instances where we purged (threw out all our feminine stuff). Also, some speak of the level of their desire to CD waxing and waning, that it only comes out when they are stressed, or triggered by something else. For the majority of us, the problem boils down to learning to control our need to CD, to finding out how often, and to what extent we need to CD in order to satisfy the urge. If we live alone, I would suggest, we have more freedom and so will tend to spend more time en-femme and dress more fully, than if we know we might have to change hurriedly back into drab. The same is true, if we are fortunate to have family or friends who accept and support us. Again, then, I think any "decision" to CD, or to choose a level of CDing is limited by factors outside of us.

So ,in your instance, I would guess that you have to assess the degree to which your present marital situation meets the level of CDing you feel is needed to satify your urge to CD. The possibilities are:
1. Your wife and you can agree to set boundaries which enable you to dress frequently and fully enough to make you happy for awhile, and keep her happy the rest of the time. You stay together.
2. The two of you cannot agree. Then you and she might have to choose between
a) you go into the closet and dress only when she is not around. You and she are comfortable with this and decide that your marriage is worth it. You stay together. If this doesn't work, your marriage is doomed.
b) you decide never again to crossdress. You and she are comfortable with this and decide that your marriage is worth it. You stay together. Later, when the kids are grown and both of you are older, wiser and more mellow, you discuss the issue and you start CDing again.
c) You or she decides that you cannot reach a mutually-acceptable compromise over the issue, and you split.

Let me digress at this point, to say that, in my experience, the husband's CDing is never the sole issue in any such marital failure. Always, there are other issues, and in many instances, the other issues are bigger factors than the CDing in causing the marriage to break up. But CDing tends to be used as the excuse! CDing can, however, be the major issue.

On another level, still within marriage, your work situation may limit your ability to CD. Some here speak of their job being too high-profile to come out of the closet. Other occupations, especially if you work with children, are not very tolerant of CDers (although, curiously enough, they do seem to be more tolerant of openly gay people, but not if they CD!).

Underdressing, it seems to me, is one way in which you might be able to reach a high enough level of CDing to match your needs, while at the same time meeting the needs of your wife.

Ok - back to the main issue ...

Suppose you decide to split. There is life afterwards!
You will be free to choose a new living environment where you can CD to your heart's content; to choose friends who either do not know that you CD or are comfortable with it, or even support it; to find a new partner who loves you enough to accept you just the way you are, and you, them.

A word of caution, though ... in my experience, too many women start out by saying they accept your CDing, and then, when they feel the relationship is firmly established, slowly begin to "change their minds" ... and the whole cycle will begin again.

Or perhaps, it is your own individual karma that leads you into the same type of situation again, with the same type of woman as before, and the whole cycle will begin again.

If you are fortunate enough to find that rare being, a truly supportive SO, cherish her forever. Realise that she is a precious gift, a result of pure chance or destiny, certainly not a conscious decision on your part.

Or you could decide to remain single.

I had to think about this for a second, being a divorcee myself, remarried, etc. and having to make a lot of choices myself. I think the choices made are not so clear cut of us or theirs.

Initially I think the choice begins before the relationship, or as the relationship even begins. In the beginning the choice is made to tell your perspective partner before or as the relationship commences or wait until after the relationship has commenced or really gone beyond a so called “initial courtship or introduction”. If the choice is to wait, then what follows can only be determined to be a result of that initial choice as the other person was already deprived of the chance to make a choice for themselves as to continue in this relationship with someone I know has an alternate gender tendency or to terminate the relationship there. In this situation if the information is divulged both people equally have the choice to determine where this goes or continues and although one persons choice may halt the relationship both parties were privy to making an adequate choice or decision for themselves directly impacting the progression of the relationship with perspective wife or SO. I believe this also applies to friends and/or other important people in your life with the exception of parents, or people who may already be involved in your life prior to you discovering your own gender issues (again parents, they brought you in this world with no way of knowing that you may be predisposed to an alternate gender or gender identity issue).

Now assuming a wife and friends and family are already in the picture, the choice again can not be solely one persons or the others. Again it is more in my opinion the denial of the chance for one or both people to make a fair choice. And as with most relationships, failure or success depends on the both parties involved in the relationship not necessarily one person. Even in the event of an affair or extramarital relationship this will reign to be true. Many folks will not agree with me here, but often a person seeks a relationship outside of the marriage for the lack of something they are not getting in their current relationship whatever that may be, emotional, physical, mental, etc. Where the tables turns and becomes more one persons fault is in the choice the person seeking the extra marital relationship made to actually pursue and act upon their thoughts, whims desires, etc. In that situation one person actively has the choice to NOT act upon those desires and communicate with their SO that something is lacking, giving their SO the fair opportunity or choice at that time to work with the partner or to ignore what the partner is saying. In which case brings me back to my original point, by not doing so denies both parties from making a fair and equal choice.

So therefore, if one has not conveyed their true selves initially upon discovery of their need to CD, or to be honest upfront about their past CDing or Transgender needs even if on hiatus, or even if they think it may not comeback, the person not divulging the information has already made the choice themselves that they are willing to sacrifice their friends, family, etc by denying them the opportunity to examine, explore and manage their issues or perspectives of the issue at hand.

If I may add one more, in my last relationship with my exwife, I dealt with a partner who had an STD (Herpes to be specific). Thankfully I did not contract this during the early part of the relationship, however she neglected to tell me from the start. Therefore I was denied the chance of even determining if I wanted to pursue a relationship with someone who was not willing to address this issue for themselves nor notify me of any outbreaks, etc. That person made the choice that it was ok to endanger my health, my feelings, my trust, from the start and hence denied me the free choice to say even ok I will accept you as are, but we must have protected sex or see a doctor. Instead I had to deal with ultimately finding out in an awkward way when she was pregnant and therefore also risking the health of our unborn child. Thank goodness those tests are done during pregnancy. All I can say is I may have been able to accept such a situation with some joint determined guidelines as opposed to years later, I feel by denying me that choice up front and information, she already made the choice that she was willing to sacrifice our relation by sacrificing the trust, the emotional layers and even physical endangerment of her partner (me) from day one. She also chooses to do that to friends who during an outbreak she may share clothing with, drink after her, etc.

I hope that made sense.

-JDP

Ok, let's sort this. Of course my questions have to do with me. But, my questions are not meant to be primarily about me. Rather, I know these questions come up for a lot of people, so I am interested primarily in their thoughts and experiences. I was using my situation to sorta get the ball rolling, so to speak. BTW I was crossdressing long before I met my wife. You can view my other threads for the full story. The situation about not telling my wife doesn't really apply to me either.

As an aside, the choices (in a nutshell) that clayfish lays out look pretty correct to me,
1. Your wife and you can agree to set boundaries which enable you to dress frequently and fully enough to make you happy for awhile, and keep her happy the rest of the time. You stay together.
2. The two of you cannot agree. Then you and she might have to choose between
a) you go into the closet and dress only when she is not around. You and she are comfortable with this and decide that your marriage is worth it. You stay together. If this doesn't work, your marriage is doomed.
b) you decide never again to crossdress. You and she are comfortable with this and decide that your marriage is worth it. You stay together. Later, when the kids are grown and both of you are older, wiser and more mellow, you discuss the issue and you start CDing again.
c) You or she decides that you cannot reach a mutually-acceptable compromise over the issue, and you split."

To put it in perspective, let's use an example. Assume I am somewhere between CD and TS. This is who I am, no going away, and I may want more cding than I am getting now, or even perhaps to transition. Wife says "no...move out..." The questions are, again, "Are we actually choosing cding over wife and family if we leave, or is it that the wife or family or friends are making choices, as well, that require us to leave? Is leaving/divorcing really ALL our decision? Wouldn't we be willing to stay if the wife and family were ok with it? Or not? Do some of us need to split (even with family acceptance) from the wife/family?

The title of the thread says it all: Whose decision is it? My reason for asking these rhetorical (sort of) questions is that I have heard others say that these decisions are only our decisions, with little comment on the other factors and decisions by others that cause us to leave.

As usual thank you for your thoughts, insights, and input.

OK Kelli - again, my two cents' worth ...

In this case, you will have made a decision to take up an uncompromising stance on the issue, and as a result your wife will have made a decision to ask you to leave.

The rest is silence ...

Who's decision is it, to leave?

Surely the person who leaves (unless they get thrown out).. :strugglin


But the basis for that decision has to be where is the suffering worst? And that varies as much as the people do, who are in each relationship - no situation is ever the same.

Tha answer to you're wife's question, Kelli, is that some people certainly are - but only you can answer if it's true in your case?

But there is a counter question for her - is she prepared to see you trapped in astate of misery, getting more and more difficult to live with? You can't just turn the feelings off..


You both need to find a compromise - but either of you moving out should, in any marriage, be a last resort?

Quote:

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My question is : Are we actually choosing cding over wife and family if we leave, or is it that the wife or family or friends are making choices themselves that require us to leave? For instance, if your wife says, " I can't handle this...don't want the kids involved with your cding... you need to move out..." , is leaving/divorcing really our decision? Wouldn't we be willing to stay if the wife and family were ok with it? Or not? Do some of us need to split (even with family acceptance) from the wife/family?

---

That is a good question, without understand that could turn in to the circumstance... Some of us left our CDing in the closet and allowed others to only know our male side. Only to release the feminine side of our selves at a later point of our life.

Now it depends your answer that is on what lead up to who is making the decission... Have you always be open and up front with your desires? Long before you have made any comittment to a relationship?.. If so then yes it's their decission because they should know that CDing is a part of you.

If you never where up front hid your CDing and was caught or felt over whelming to revel your secret , maybe from quilt ..Then it's you unconcious decission that created the circumstance that you have found yourself in..

Ok Kelli here's my stab at it.
Your last post section 1) In my case boundaries were agreed, i dressed often enough, stayed indoors and kept out of her way - everybody happy. Then, as women often do, she did a U turn and it was "carry on cding and i leave."
2a) was not an option she never goes out without me
2b) was equally not an option because I made the decision that i was not going to stop (there have been other issues in the past where i have abided by her wishes and stopped things but not this time)
2c) splitting could still happen but that will be her decision.
All I ask of her is that we turn back the clock to the previously agreed boundaries which again will be her decision but the overriding decision to carry on dressing has been made by me. It is a big gamble but i still hope she will come round and she hasn't left - yet.

Clearly, if we left totally because we wanted out to live the life we wanted, then, as I said previously, that WOULD be us making a choice---cding over wife/family. That's obvious. I am speaking about other circumstances, where we are asked to leave, or thrown out, whatever. I usually hear, that in either case, it was ALL our decision. Not that simple, in that case, IMHO.

Clayfish, the comment you made, "In this case, you will have made a decision to take up an uncompromising stance on the issue, and as a result your wife will have made a decision to ask you to leave", is true to a degree. Yes the cder's decision is uncompromising , further the wife's "decision" is an uncompromising stance as well, no? It wouldn't be your decision to leave them over this. It would be (being fair) at least yours and hers.

While it's true the CDing is the catalyst for this, I would venture to say, especially if you are "further along the path" it's not all your choice. I suppose , in the long run, it doesn't really matter, though. I just get annoyed, again, when people claim that it's all about us, and not about anyone, or anything else.


BTW, my brain is getting tired, lol. This is serious, complicated stuff, isn't it?


Thanks, all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kelli Michelle

Ok, let's sort this. Of course my questions have to do with me. But, my questions are not meant to be primarily about me. Rather, I know these questions come up for a lot of people, so I am interested primarily in their thoughts and experiences. I was using my situation to sorta get the ball rolling, so to speak. BTW I was crossdressing long before I met my wife. You can view my other threads for the full story. The situation about not telling my wife doesn't really apply to me either.

As an aside, the choices (in a nutshell) that clayfish lays out look pretty correct to me,
1. Your wife and you can agree to set boundaries which enable you to dress frequently and fully enough to make you happy for awhile, and keep her happy the rest of the time. You stay together.
2. The two of you cannot agree. Then you and she might have to choose between
a) you go into the closet and dress only when she is not around. You and she are comfortable with this and decide that your marriage is worth it. You stay together. If this doesn't work, your marriage is doomed.
b) you decide never again to crossdress. You and she are comfortable with this and decide that your marriage is worth it. You stay together. Later, when the kids are grown and both of you are older, wiser and more mellow, you discuss the issue and you start CDing again.
c) You or she decides that you cannot reach a mutually-acceptable compromise over the issue, and you split."

To put it in perspective, let's use an example. Assume I am somewhere between CD and TS. This is who I am, no going away, and I may want more cding than I am getting now, or even perhaps to transition. Wife says "no...move out..." The questions are, again, "Are we actually choosing cding over wife and family if we leave, or is it that the wife or family or friends are making choices, as well, that require us to leave? Is leaving/divorcing really ALL our decision? Wouldn't we be willing to stay if the wife and family were ok with it? Or not? Do some of us need to split (even with family acceptance) from the wife/family?

The title of the thread says it all: Whose decision is it? My reason for asking these rhetorical (sort of) questions is that I have heard others say that these decisions are only our decisions, with little comment on the other factors and decisions by others that cause us to leave.

As usual thank you for your thoughts, insights, and input.

---

As I read this, I feel very sad for all involved with this relationship, I really do.

And what I'm about to say can go for Any relationship.

If I'm reading this right, which can get pretty confusing the way your asking it and your making it out to be more complicated than it really is, IMO.

In a nutshell, since you were not honest with your wife from the beginning before you took a vow of marriage, and she accepted this vow of marriage based on Love, honesty & trust from you, thinking that what she knew & saw in you was what she wanted based on how you presented yourself to her.

SOOO,,,, based on that, The decision IS and always was Your Choice to Stay OR leave.

In other words, if you say NO, I will not stop, and the whole CD thing is very upsetting to her because had she of known from the beginning, from the sounds of it, She would have never married you, because she doesn't like guy's that dress up as girl....and that is her right to feel that way... period.
and by you saying NO, Then that leaves her NO CHOICE but to say LEAVE then, because this is not what she wanted to be married to & never did, and that is her right.
If you say YES, I will stop, then, you have made the choice to Stay.

So either way, the Choice is ONLY yours on weather you want to stay or leave, you can't put the blame on them for making you leave because you gave them no choice to do otherwise if they strongly disapprove of CDing.

It's called Freewill, you can't make someone approve of something if they don't want to, just because you want it that way.

There will be no one to blame either way but Yourself for not being Honest & Truthful with Yourself #1, And #2 Most importantly, Your Wife.

It would be great if everyone in this world could be so understanding about the problems we all face, but I also believe that everyone has the same right as we do to express there beliefs, even if it's based on ignorance, but when one enters an relationship based on Love & Trust, and a person breaks that Trust, who's to blame here.... the answer is the obvious.....yes or no..

Sorry, Just my :2c:

Karen

Kellie,

Lets pretend that you're not a crossdresser for a second and just your average strapping man's man, that takes care of his family, does his job to the best of his ability, and tries to be the best father he can be.....
Your wife comes up to you one day and says... hey hun... i really want to be a man... will you stay with me? Weird huh... You didn't marry a man... and she didn't marry a woman... the fine line is compromise.. if she has altered her compromise stance, it is her right to do so, but that would make it her decision. You know how some cd's say... well I didn't know WHO I WAS till i was 50!! So THATS WHY I am doing this now... well.... does it not seem fit that a spouse didn't know what she wanted out of her life till 50? and possibly change her mind on the whole ' i can deal with it' thing?
Just because she was young and possibly naive when she found out about your dressing, and though it was something she could deal with, does NOT mean that it is set in stone.... it just DOESN'T... Just like cd'ers that are always pushing the boundaries that were set to see if they can stretch them a little with their spouse... it's the same thing.. just for a second, think about what SHE is feeling and thinking about, then ask yourself if you would react the same way.

You are transgendered. You cannot change this. It is not a option.

Either you both decide you can live with the CDing (hopefully with healthy compromises), or you both decide you cannot. When a marriage breaks up, it is never just one person's responsibility.

IMO the issue is not whether Kelli knew or didn't know before she married, or chose to tell her wife or not, especially if earlier in their relationship Kelli wanted to and thought she could live without it. Desires and levels of CDing change as individuals age and reach more profound degrees of self-acceptance, or as other barriers to the CDing are removed. Also, even if an SO knew from the onset, her own definitions might have been superficial. She might have decided she could live with her husband wearing lingerie in the bedroom for example, and it might have taken years for her or even for both of them to discover the CDing was more deeply rooted than anyone thought. Then who's fault is it if they cannot agree on the degree of expression, if the CDer's needs increase to the point of full body shaving and wishing an active social life en femme?

Everything always changes and it is up to both the partners in a relationship to decide whether or not they can weather these changes. So the solution is for both of you to communicate and compromise. Or divorce, in which case you will both lose something you each consider to be essential to your existence. As will your children.

I wish your wife could come to understand this.

And Kelli, if you do not think you are TS at the current time, I would consider stopping to mention this to your wife. No one knows what the future holds, and it is true that everything is possible, but to present a picture that may not be accurate IMO is not the best thing to do in your situation right now. A personal example: there is always the possibility I will lapse back into old addictions, but I do not remind my family of this on a regular basis.

Might also your outlook on the possibility of being TS change for you if you and your wife decide you can get past this and you stay together? Meaning, don't TSs know from very early on they are women born in the wrong body? Please forgive me if my question is naive or if it offends.
:hugs:

KELLI - I have been confronted with this decision for the last 6 months - I still do not know what to do - my Spouse is accepting uo to a point (she wants boundaries - I do not)

The PINK FOG wants me to leave so I can CD all I want and to the EXTENT I want.

I have to weigh this against the loss of a wife of 38 years - my family, my friends, my job, my church

It makes sense to try to keep my CDing under control so I don't lose everything

But that dammed PINK FOG is so powerful - it causes me to take chances, disregard risks, and otherwise not think straight

Does this sound like you ?

JoAnne Wheeler

Wow, great comments, and ideas.

I keep hearing people say, "you didn't tell your wife...before you were married..." She did know I crossdressed. She even bought me a nightgown. Let's close the case on that, ok?
Even if I hadn't told her, I don't see what that would have to do with my questions, but let's get past that too. What she knew, is what I knew.

I didn't know if I was further along the path ( I always thought I was simply a cder) until later, when I I discovered things about myself, in going out dressed. At the time we were separated while I was trying to secure a job while she was with the kids in another country. I told her as soon as I saw her (you don't discuss things like this over the phone).

Even though I didn't want this thread to be about me, it looks like it IS gonna be about me, so I will just go with it.

As far as what constitutes a TS or not, contradict me if you will, but I have done not considerable research on lots of aspects of CDing and TS, etc. While, I suppose, the primary model for a TS is one where they felt like a woman in a man's body from early years, it's not the only model. I remember when I was around 2-3 yrs. Old (I know what age I was now), I tried on some little girl pantaloons (my sister's) and confidently waked out into the front yard. My mom was screaming at me, as was my dad. That part of me went into the closet until about 12 when I discovered my mom's lingerie. It has gone on since then. Having been heavily immersed in all things male (heavy sports, 3 brothers, etc) and not having the time or opportunity it has taken some time to discover what I am. My thought is that I am not a "true" TS, but somewhere in between. I don't want ALL of what goes with being as TS, but would like breast implants and would like to live as a woman 24/7.

Reine, as far as whether my thoughts on this might change at some point in the future, I suppose that is possible, since I am not a true TS.

I am not blaming my wife for whatever her stance is. I suppose it's natural to assume that I am simply pushing boundaries, or that I am failing to take her feelings into account. I am actually very sympathetic and empathetic. IT would be difficult for anyone. That doesn't preclude me from being what I believe I am, or her from trying to understand my situation, even if she doesn't like it. Should we say, " well, this isn't fair to my wife (or she doesn't like it), so I will just let it go and go back to my old self, even though it would be a lie, and cause us both incredible stress and depression ..." ?

Look, if she doesn't want what I want, it's no sin on her to say, "honey, I just can't live that way..." That is a fair statement, and I would understand.

Joanne, your situation sounds a bit like me. How far does yours go? Would like any type of body modification?

Here is what i would submit: if you love your wife but, she wants you to leave (should you continue to cd more) and you decide I will stay, than I would submit that you do indeed have the pink fog. However, if you decide to leave, than you don't have the pink fog---it's something more.

If, in the above case, you weren't deeply in love with your wife and the same exact situation occurred, and you left, it could be EITHER the pink fog or something more. If you stayed, then it definitely is the pink fog.

Hope I am being sufficiently confusing, lol.

Thanks for the input.

I did not mean my reply to suggest that you didn't tell before hand. As I read your post I actually thought about you stating that she knew up front and was thinking how fustrating this must be for you especially having been up front.

I guess in answer to the original question "who's decision is it?" I could've been much more brief in my answer...but you know as a girl at heary I have a tendency to go on and on...oops i did it again...

anyway my thoughts...and just my thoughts is i do think it is the decision or choice of both people in the relationship and the choices are but not limited to...choosing to accept each others feelings coupled with choosing to find a comprimise and a peaceful life together where both can feel free and fulfilled in life or choosing to not accept something of the other person leaving that person possibly unhappy and resentful, thus possibly leading to a wedge or gap in the relationship ultimately.

again just my thoughts...

Well Jamie, you had lots to say, so say it girl. I agreed with a lot what you had to say btw. All this discussion is good, even the parts that didn't sound right to me. It all helps one look at all the angles. If I just wanted one side versus all, I never would have posted.

Let she who has never lied cast the first stone.

Cause studies have shown that even in anonymous surveys many poeple lie. For example men exaggerate upwards their number of sexual partners in their sexual history and women exaggerate the same thing downwards. Both lying. Plenty of people, almost a third, both men and women equally, cheat on their partners. Liars.

And in day to day life most people lie plenty every single day.

Also and even more importantly people retain a right to privacy even in marriage from their spouse!

Now that makes a lot of people uncomfortable but it is so. It was something womens-rights campainers fought for!

Almost everyone has secrets they wish to keep. Secret attractions, secret fantasies.

People often dont tell their partner that they find other people attractive, or that they fantasise about other people.

About 1/3rd of the audience of pornography is female and that proportion is swiftly growing. I'm sure plenty are not being open about that.

Heck the amount of American women who have had voluntary sex with a dog is said to be more than 1% which if so would make them more common than some estimates of TSs!

Do you think the bestialist GGs have confessed their past unethical and illegal abusive sex with an unable-to-give-informed-consent animal to their husbands?

When many have not disclosed their true number of past sexual partners to their husbands I'm certain many GGs have skeletons in their closet too.

And such secrets are often not of being guilty of crimes or of having fetishes or fantasies. Most victims of abuse, physical and/or sexual, as adults or children do not tell their partners. Men and women both. For fear of what people will think of them, of their judgement or because they just dont want to or dont feel able to talk about it! 1 in 3 women and 1 in 7 men are the current estimate figures for being victims of sexual abuse.

The kind of honesty people are expecting of others is in fact extraordinarily rare. That all CDs spouses, every single one, are so completely 100% honest beggars belief. It's likely less probable than the loch ness monster falling through my ceiling while singing yankee doodle dandee in the next 5 minutes.

People also have a right to change their mind. They have a right to change as a person. They have a right to total and final say over their own bodies even in relationships no matter the circumstances. They have a right to their own private property.

Even were CDing to be a hobby it is unethical and emotional blackmail for one partner to make such a conditional demand on their spouse. To bargain is one thing, request too is fine. To decide that one cannot handle something and leave is all fine. But to demand a person become responsible for your own decision to leave or not, to use the threat of leaving in order to obtain a desired result is unethical pure and simple.

But the choice to leave (or end the relationship), if it is a choice, belongs to the person who chooses to leave (or end the relationship).

If we extend the responsibility for the decision from the chooser to the person whose circumstances/actions/words prompted that choice then logically the choice to hide being a CD for example is no longer the CDs responsibility but that of all those whose statements and actions led them to believe that was a good course of action or something they should hide.

And with the existence of GID a currently recognised condition and with CDing thouroughly under-studied the presumption that CDing is a choice that can easilly be discarded is an unfair one.

Logically both the CD and GG should be more worried about the nearly 1 in 3 chance their partner is cheating, risking bringing STDs into their marital bed.

But if the CD needs to be a CD and/or the GG needs them not to be a CD regardless of whether there was honesty or acceptance about it from the start and/or a need or circumstance or feelling about it that changes or is discovered to be different and they cannot change that need then that is their need and the other cannot and should not be made responsible for what decisions they make if they cannot have that need met. If both have that need then neither is responsible for the failure of the realtionship!

And thus far, in most cases and maybe all CDs cannot quit being a CD and cannot try without risk to long-term mental health. I'm certain that some GGs cannot remain in a relationship with a CD.

Now consider that the people who create a climate of fear and shame and hiding around CDing might be able to be considered culpable in the CDs who hide that fact from their SOs,...

In which case if we look at the big picture then creating a situation of such increased acceptance of CDs that most feel able to be open and honest about being Cd without fear of reprisal or negative consequence for it so that CDs can be open from the start and find accepting SOs from the outset and all GGs can know full well that CDs exist and their partner may be one is a serious necessity and obligation for everyone.

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

Also and even more importantly people retain a right to privacy even in marriage from their spouse!

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Batty, are you now or have you ever been married? That statement of yours that I quoted sounds as though it comes from a person who has never experienced "true" married love. If two people really truly love each other and are completely honest with each other, privacy is not an issue! If you have read my other posts, you know that I was married over 49 years to the same wonderful lady. She supported my CD activities for the entire time, always knowing that I was still her Man underneath the dress, skirt, etc! We never had a problem with "privacy!"

Kelli, your wife married a man!! Now you want to live as a woman! Not what she expected you to do. Sure, she knew you were a CD before you were married! But it is fairly obvious you never told her about your very strong feminine desires. IMHO, you are the only one who has any blame! If you had told her the whole truth back when your marriage started, you probably would not be in the position you are in right now. Yes, you might not even be married. But that might be the best route for you, given what you want to do with your life.

I have been a CD, off and on, for over 60 years. I had been a CD for about 16years when I got married. Never once did I think about becoming a woman, only about dressing like one!, My dear late wife asked me, more then once, if I felt like actually becoming a woman! I told he, "No, I want to be your husband but I do like to dress like a woman!" She told me that she was fine with that as long as I did remember that I was a man. See my tag line!! BTW, I said I had been a CD, off and on! That is because I did stop completely for a 5 year period, and only started dressing again because my dear wife begged me to! She liked having Stephanie as a girl friend!!

If you haven't already discussed this with your wife, I suggest you two see a Therapist who specializes in Gender problems as soon as possible. Crossdressing itself is not necessarily being Transgendered, but wanting to have breast implants and live 24/7 as a woman certainly qualifies one as being Transgendered, or maybe even Transsexual.

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Originally Posted by sissystephanie

Batty, are you now or have you ever been married?

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No, my longest relationship was cohabiting for almost 6 years though. But I have seen enough abusive marriages around me to know just how vital for womens (and mens) rights it was to ensure that the right to privacy legally counted even in marriage.

The right to privacy exists at all levels, between parents and children, husband and wife, and of course citizens have a right to privacy from the state but not so much vice versa on the last in a democracy.

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That statement of yours that I quoted sounds as though it comes from a person who has never experienced "true" married love. If two people really truly love each other and are completely honest with each other, privacy is not an issue!

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Two people being so completely honest with each other is rare indeed. And not so much as common as you seem to think. Despite the depth of love, and often very much because of it people on a daily basis deceive in small and large ways those around them. As the statistics on cheating and deception on a host of issues shows. Few are so principled as to be able to bear the consequences of extreme honesty or are fortunate enough to not have such consequences to suffer.

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If you have read my other posts, you know that I was married over 49 years to the same wonderful lady. She supported my CD activities for the entire time, always knowing that I was still her Man underneath the dress, skirt, etc! We never had a problem with "privacy!"

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And your good fortune is no yardstick to measure by when many will not be so fortunate (please see Rawls Veil Of Ignorance test of justice). Rights exist to protect those whose fortunes are not so great or who may be abused by power.

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Kelli, your wife married a man!! Now you want to live as a woman! Not what she expected you to do. Sure, she knew you were a CD before you were married! But it is fairly obvious you never told her about your very strong feminine desires. IMHO, you are the only one who has any blame! If you had told her the whole truth back when your marriage started, you probably would not be in the position you are in right now. Yes, you might not even be married. But that might be the best route for you, given what you want to do with your life.

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See now this is where ignorance, just lack of knowledge or worse willfull ignorance, of the psychological reality of repression and the results of fear gets you. Should we condemn the victims of child abuse for not informing their spouses prior to marriage? After all most do not! And most tend to suffer ongoing mental health issues from that trauma that manifests years into the marriage affecting the entire family!

Because us CDs are traumatised into repression. Just like the closeted homosexuals of past decades were. Thats why there are those comorbidities of depression, anxiety etc and that horribly high suicide rate.

Even when a CD, or a victim of rape as while far from the same the process is similar, informs their partner well before such a commitment as marriage the healling process takes time and its path cannot easilly be predicted. So if someone thinks they are merely a CD but their growing self acceptance in the safe space of a seemingly secure relationship leads them to discover they are TS there is no betrayel by the CD there, merely a best guess from a position of ordinary ignorance. That is blameless no matter how in error it can be!

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Crossdressing itself is not necessarily being Transgendered, but wanting to have breast implants and live 24/7 as a woman certainly qualifies one as being Transgendered, or maybe even Transsexual.

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A tomboy is transgender. By definition every crossdresser is transgender.

Certainly informing a prospective spouse beforehand of being a CD, of the small but real possibility one could turn out to be a TS is the ethical, the clearly right thing to do. But the assumption that everyone is just plain capable of easilly doing so is unfair in just the same way as assuming everyone is capable of confessing to their suffering sexual assault. In reality only a minority have the strength and courage to do so!

Its oh so easy for those of us like you and me who were so capable of such a confession to sit in judgement on others, to blame the victims of a pattern of psychological repression seen in every major stygmatised minority group in history for their own suffering. But the trouble is that such a pattern of repression does exist. It's darn obvious once you look at other similar populations of oppressed and stygmatised people who go through the exact same pattern!

Batty,
I have to side with Stephanie here..... I can see your point and I agree that there are many marriages that last a long time without the partners knowing all of each other's secrets.
However.. (You just KNEW there was a however, didn't you?) My lovely wife and I have been married for 33 years. She knew about my dressing before we married. It took a lot of years and a lot of 'self-discovery' for both of us before she became comfortable going out with me for a 'girl's night out'.
Basically society had to change!! From the look of your pic, if that is current, we are in two different generations, having grown up under different sets of social rules as it were.
I grew up pretty much under the same rules as Stephanie. And believe me, if you were a CD, and left your house, you were most likely going to get your buttocks kicked before you returned home. It was an era of 'McCarthy-ism' and the Cold war. If you weren't as GOD made you, then you were a Communist, or worse... A homo!!!!
That made you a fifth class person, were the dog had more rights than you did.
At that time 'gay' meant you were happy. Sex was something nice girls didn't talk about or do until they were married. And being a CD was a mental disorder that got you committed to an asylum for Electro-shock therapy.
This attitude contiued through much of the 1970's. By that time, stephanie and I were both already married!!! I think it is actually miraculous that we both found spouses open minded enough in that time period to have loved us anyway.
Today? Life is dramatically different. Living with someone for 6 years? My god, you would have been stoned to death!! Today both of my kids have lived with prospective mates. One is getting married this June!!
The other left broken hearted after 4 years.
Is it better than what Stephanie and I grew up with? I do not know, it's just different.
It also now allows us to go out and have a night out en femme and not worry as much for our safety. As long as you take all the precautions any woman would take, you are relatively safe. THAT is a totally different scenario.
Just my take on things.
ALL comments are welcome.
Lisa E

It's amazing how these threads have a life of their own. What started out as X, often ends with a discussion of Y. Even though this thread isn't about lying to spouses and assessing "blame" per se, that is apparently where it's at now. Incredible!!!

I have made it clear that I, pretty quickly, told my wife, WHEN I knew things, and was upfront when we got married. I have also made it clear, that I don't blame her for not wanting to be in a relationship with a woman. I can repeat this as many times as you want, and you can keep posting that I didn't do all this as many times as you want. Enjoy!

I don't think Batty is saying that one SHOULD keep secrets , but that people do keep secrets from each other, even loving, secure spouses. If you feel that you can and want to tell your spouse or SO everything, by all means do. I do try to do that as well. But my experiences aren't the same as someone else's. I am not going to try to assess blame, or criticize what a person has done, without having walked in their exact shoes.

Thanks again for the input. It is much appreciated

Kelli,

Is it really all that amazing it turned out this way??

On my 1st post to you I had asked a direct question to you if your wife knew if you were a CDer before you got married, because I believe it matters.
But you never answered it.

I had also mentioned to you on my 2nd post here that your thread was rather confusing in the way you worded it.

So for anyone to give you an answer your question here correctly, it seems it takes some kind of super interpretation skills at the very least to figure out what your really asking.

And far as I was aware of, you never stated anything about what you told your wife and made nothing clear here, not on this thread anyways, so what is everyone supposed to do, go back and read all your past threads so we know what was said or not said??

Maybe it's just me, but I find you very confusing..but I was never to good at mind reading, so that's my fault.

And what batty is saying, sounds like a recipe for a disastrous relationship, and a highly dysfunctional one at best, all I can say is, good luck to her with that.

I personally find it much easier to give a direct answer to a direct question, that's all I'm saying..I'm just a dumb twit simpleton I guess.IDK, lol

Good luck to you,
I do wish you well,
Karen

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Originally Posted by Karen564

Kel
And what batty is saying, sounds like a recipe for a disastrous relationship, and a highly dysfunctional one at best, all I can say is, good luck to her with that.

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When about 1 in 3 people cheat and more than 1 in 3 marriages does not end in divorce (it's about 60% divorce rate in most western countries iirc) then there are seemingly successful marriages where nonetheless that cheating is occurring.

The average person lies several times a day. Those who dont are mostly mentally ill, brain-damaged or otherwise congnitively challenged or are differently cognitively wired like Aspergers. Then there are a microscopic minority of idealists. But even those idealists often regularly manipulate the truth in order to be more polite, like quietly suggesting a different brand of deoderant rather than telling someone outright that they stink.

Once you consider omission a lie then it is an essential part of human interaction, from neccessary politeness to Ethical requirements for patient confidentiality!

Now while I personally disagree with deception the need to respect confidance is clear. And when someone needs to escape an abusive spouse then the need of having the legal right to privacy is absolutely clear.

Someone can love their wife or husband dearly yet know their spouse is a gossip unable to keep juicy rumours to themselves in which case keeping things told to them by others in confidance from the gossipy spouse is absolute. Right there is another perfect example of the right to privacy in a relationship.

And once again I point out that 1/3rd of women have been raped as adults or children and at least and likely more than 1/7th of men have been raped as adults or boys. There are plenty of things people do not share. Often for good reasons. Often because they cannot bring themselves to talk about it!

So sometimes, such as with confidance or if the spouse is abusive, then omission or even deception can be the right thing to do. And othertimes such as with trauma like sexual abuse it is too difficult for people to bring up till often after years of marriage if ever!

If say for example the spouse is suffering from a severe psychological illness where some things could easilly trigger a crisis, self-harm or violence towards others then to an extent keeping them from such triggers may be vital.

How often do people, especially women, leave telling their loved ones about health problems untill after they have had a confirming or clearing diagnosis so as to save loved ones from unneccessary stress and worry?

Many many many women upon finding a lump in their breast for example will wait till after the mammogram or ultrasound etc before telling their family that they have cancer or dont once they know either way or only when they have to go into surgery for a biopsy to be sure.

Now me personally, I'm honest to the extreme. I'm polite about it (such as the deoderant Vs stink point above) and I will respect things said in confidance by omitting information unless there is an ethical obligation to tell (so I'm a bad person to confess a murder to). But I realise I'm an exception and not the norm.

But when considering right and wrong in relationships, when considering rights, you have to look at all permutations of relationships, all possible occurances and influencing factors not just ideal situations and relationships!

I don't feel that dressing is a condition. I can also say that my wife was not fully aware about my feelings about dressing. Nothing was ever hidden from her. I just think that it took some time for me to actually be able to afford this side of my person. And knowing just who I decided to spend the rest of my life with, I know that she would never have me choose one or the other.

I do know that she is upset that I took her skirt for my profile photo.

I'm sorry to say I didn't read through every post in this thread...yet...

But it occurred to me that every single choice we make in life causes others to evaluate how they fit into that choice.... you know what I mean?

If you have a wife, at some point you chose her, and therefore excluded others from having that relationship with you.

If you consume adult beverages, you probably include/exclude others from your social life based on that. (same for smoking)

The style of dress you chose will cause people to form a first impression of you that usually lasts a lifetime... for good or bad.

No matter how idealistic we are in our view of the world, every move we make is evaluated by those that observe our actions.

So the bottom line? What is accomplished by denying yourself and living a lie? Is that the proper way to live in a relationship? I don't consider crossdressing to be morally corrupt. Cheating on a spouse is in my book though...

:hugs:

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Originally Posted by Kelli Michelle

She did know I crossdressed. ... What she knew, is what I knew.

I didn't know if I was further along the path ( I always thought I was simply a cder) until later, when I discovered things about myself, in going out dressed.

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This is not uncommon at all. You found something that satisfied your need at first, but the farther it went the more you needed.

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Originally Posted by Kelli Michelle

As far as what constitutes a TS or not, contradict me if you will, ... My thought is that I am not a "true" TS, but somewhere in between. I don't want ALL of what goes with being as TS, but would like breast implants and would like to live as a woman 24/7.

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There is no such thing as a "true" TS. Yes, I've heard the argument many times, but it really is a crock of shit. If you have the need to live the rest of your life as a woman you're most likely a transexual. Breast implants or not.

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Originally Posted by Kelli Michelle

Look, if she doesn't want what I want, it's no sin on her to say, "honey, I just can't live that way..." That is a fair statement, and I would understand.

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I wish I could say it was that easy for her. It's just not and a lot of factors play into that. The way she was raised, her views on marriage and commitment, her love for you, and her relationship history as a woman. And that's just a few. There are A LOT more.

As a wife of a TS, I can only tell you what helped me. Tell her how you feel. Not what you want to do or plan to do, but how you feel. Then give her time and listen to her. She will, and most likely already is, going through the stages of grief. If she isn't already seeing a counselor, suggest that she get one. Later, if she's interested, there are a few books that might help her. PM me and I'll give you a short list. Be kind to yourself and her right now. She's probably not talking from a rational place right now, but one born from fear and pain.

Cheryl T, you so took the words out of my mouth, hit it on the head, My girl kathie is my best girl friend, and me hers, like you and yours we do and compliment each other, I love her for letting me be me!! if it would have come down to it , rather than lose her I would have put Jennifer away, but it turned out there was no need she loves both of us, I'm so lucky!!!! Jennifer

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

Also and even more importantly people retain a right to privacy even in marriage from their spouse!

Now that makes a lot of people uncomfortable but it is so. It was something womens-rights campainers fought for!

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Really, this is a right the feminists fought for? When? Honestly, in ALL of my gender and womens studies classes, this is the first I've heard of it. Oh, and as a stickler for the details, I would appreciate citation/documentation.

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

The right to privacy exists at all levels, between parents and children, husband and wife, and of course citizens have a right to privacy from the state but not so much vice versa on the last in a democracy.

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Are you really sure about this? I noticed your location was Australia, so are you speaking as an Aussie? Just so you know, this is not true in The States. Children, under the age of 18 living with their parents do not have a right to privacy under the law. Spouses also do not have a right to privacy under the law. The state thing used to be true, but then we had this lovely little thing called the Patriot Act happen and that blew that right to hell and back.

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Heck the amount of American women who have had voluntary sex with a dog is said to be more than 1% which if so would make them more common than some estimates of TSs!

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Again, citation/documentation.

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The kind of honesty people are expecting of others is in fact extraordinarily rare. That all CDs spouses, every single one, are so completely 100% honest beggars belief. It's likely less probable than the loch ness monster falling through my ceiling while singing yankee doodle dandee in the next 5 minutes.

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Did anyone here, CD, TS, or partner say that they were *ALWAYS* honest to everyone about everything? Here's the rub. Communication and honesty are IMHO two of the most important aspects needed in a trans relationship. A CD or TS has issues with their gender and, believe it or not, that has effects on their partner's gender as well. If we're not willing to talk about how we feel to each other, then how are we to be able to empathize with someone we profess to love?

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

People also have a right to change their mind. They have a right to change as a person. They have a right to total and final say over their own bodies even in relationships no matter the circumstances. They have a right to their own private property.

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You're absolutely right. I would add, if we're talking about someone doing body modifications or something that would effect their spouse or relationship, they also have the right to expect a very abrupt ending to their relationship.

No matter how you rationalize it, people don't exist in vacuums. When we get into relationships we open our lives up to someone else, and they to us. When that relationship becomes long-term, such as in the case of marriage, major changes have a powerful rippling effect.

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A tomboy is transgender. By definition every crossdresser is transgender.

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No. A tomboy is not necessarily transgender. A tomboy is most often a girl or woman who exhibits qualities that are associated with boys. She is, in most cases, not trying to "be" a boy. Just herself.

From Susan Stryker, "In any case, it is the movement across a socially-imposed boundary away from an unchosen starting place - rather than any particular destination or mode of transition."

It is my understanding that being trans is an identity. So just because someone transgresses gender norms doesn't mean they're transgender. Unless they see themselves as being so. YMMV.

As to your original question.

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Originally Posted by Kelli Michelle

My question is : Are we actually choosing cding over wife and family if we leave, or is it that the wife or family or friends are making choices themselves that require us to leave?

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I don't see either as a choice. It just sounds like both of your needs have changed and so the choices you made in the past are no longer applicable.

Does blame really need to be assigned? Is that going to help either of you?

Is absolving either of you of any wrongdoing going to make the decisions you are facing as a couple any easier?

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Originally Posted by Kelli Michelle

Look, if she doesn't want what I want, it's no sin on her to say, "honey, I just can't live that way..." That is a fair statement, and I would understand.

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Kelli, I congratulate you on seeing through the blame game that your wife is playing. Everyone likes to think that they are a good person so when there is a point of dispute the natural reaction is to organize the argument to place the blame and responsibility onto the shoulders of the other party. We all do this, so this is not a criticism of your wife per se, rather it is a recognition of human psychology. Her positioning is designed to relieve her of the stress that she is the one who has the problem over accepting your needs and she is thinking about breaking up the relationship.

As you point out she has a right to think this way but she is not able to state the truth and chooses to dodge the bullet. Avoiding the shame of being the initiator/oppressor is a favorite game and you can see examples of the silly excuses conjured up in this very thread.

Also congratulations for not buying into the guilt trap that many members here exhibit. This notion that a wife has a right to a manly man, the notion that who you are is frozen in time from the day of your marriage....it is all hogwash. There is absolutely nothing wrong or harmful about dressing in clothes to reflect your feelings. Some people cannot accept this simple fact and so insist on punishing themselves and others in the same situation by saying it is the CD's duty to sacrifice their own happiness for that of their partners. That is not marriage, that is servitude.

People change constantly and it is up to others to decide if they want to stay on the same train as you or jump off. They have the right to that choice even if it is based on ignorance and prejudice. Unfortunately there is no way to force enlightenment onto others so they right thing to do is accept your partner's decision if that is what makes them happy. Ideally they should be truthful enough to state their issues and give you the freedom to decide whether you want to change course. It is hard but it is fair.

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Originally Posted by Madame George

No. A tomboy is not necessarily transgender. A tomboy is most often a girl or woman who exhibits qualities that are associated with boys. She is, in most cases, not trying to "be" a boy. Just herself.

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If you stick with your description then most CDs are not transgendered either. Indeed only a small percentage of the members here could call themselves transgendered. Yet clearly their feelings would be labeled as transgenderness.

The word transgendered means to exhibit characteristics associated with the opposite sex. Hence tomboys most certainly do fall under that description except they generally behave differently from MTF CDS by not engaging in closet induced fantasies and emulations. But then many CDs dont do that either.

It is more accurate to say that tomboys are the female equivalent to MTF CDs except that in their case tomboy behavior is widely tolerated by society and carries no terrible stigma hence tomboys do not enter into a closeted mode with all its side effects. The result is that most people never consider tomboys to be transgendered because it is known that it is not an indicator of transsexuality or homosexuality precisely because it is not closeted. It is also a consideration of the fact that women gain status by developing their masculine side unlike MTF CDS who lose status.

These days most women openly admit to being a "bit of a tomboy" because they acknowledge they expend little effort to live up to traditional definitions of femininity and instead choose androgyny. This means at the most basic level women wearing pants are reacting to the same idea that CDs do, namely escaping the confines of their assigned gender roles and absorbing the good parts of the other sex.

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Originally Posted by Satrana

Avoiding the shame of being the initiator/oppressor is a favorite game and you can see examples of the silly excuses conjured up in this very thread.

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Transition is a fundamental change in identity. Grieving the loss of the husband you fell in love with is not a game or a silly excuse. And denial is a stage of grief.

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People change constantly and it is up to others to decide if they want to stay on the same train as you or jump off. They have the right to that choice even if it is based on ignorance and prejudice. Unfortunately there is no way to force enlightenment onto others so they right thing to do is accept your partner's decision if that is what makes them happy. Ideally they should be truthful enough to state their issues and give you the freedom to decide whether you want to change course. It is hard but it is fair.

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I agree that a partner has a choice as to whether she wants to stay in the relationship after her husband informs her he intends to transition, and if not immediately, eventually she will come to realize it is also her choice to leave the marriage, but to accuse her of being ignorant, prejudiced and not enlightened discounts her heterosexuality. Not every woman is able to alter her sexuality or live in a platonic marriage to accommodate a transsexual partner.

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Originally Posted by Satrana

These days most women openly admit to being a "bit of a tomboy" because they acknowledge they expend little effort to live up to traditional definitions of femininity and instead choose androgyny. This means at the most basic level women wearing pants are reacting to the same idea that CDs do, namely escaping the confines of their assigned gender roles and absorbing the good parts of the other sex.

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There are many women who wear pants for convenience. They do not think of themselves as being androgynous or a tomboy. Also, there are many fathers today who also go outside their assigned gender roles by sharing in the household chores and who care for and nurture their children as actively as their wives. Some couples even decide he should stay home while she develops her career. Would you also compare these men to CDs and consider them to be transgendered?

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Originally Posted by Satrana

If you stick with your description then most CDs are not transgendered either. Indeed only a small percentage of the members here could call themselves transgendered. Yet clearly their feelings would be labeled as transgenderness.

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No, a CD who is dressing as the opposite sex in an attempt to be perceived/treated/experienced as that sex is the very essence of the definition. Women who are labeled or identify as a tomboy are most often not trying to be perceived/treated/experienced as a male. Instead, it is an expression of their own unique femininity. Again, being trans is an identity.

Also, transgenderness is not a word.

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The word transgendered means to exhibit characteristics associated with the opposite sex.

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Um... no. See above.

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It is more accurate to say that tomboys are the female equivalent to MTF CDs except that in their case tomboy behavior is widely tolerated by society and carries no terrible stigma hence tomboys do not enter into a closeted mode with all its side effects. The result is that most people never consider tomboys to be transgendered because it is known that it is not an indicator of transsexuality or homosexuality precisely because it is not closeted. It is also a consideration of the fact that women gain status by developing their masculine side unlike MTF CDS who lose status.

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As a former long-term tomboy I can attest that there are certainly social repercussions for tomboys. Also, it is not known that being a tomboy is not an indicator of being transgendered. They are separate identities, but AFAIK any correlations between them have never been tested.

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These days most women openly admit to being a "bit of a tomboy" because they acknowledge they expend little effort to live up to traditional definitions of femininity and instead choose androgyny. This means at the most basic level women wearing pants are reacting to the same idea that CDs do, namely escaping the confines of their assigned gender roles and absorbing the good parts of the other sex.

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The scary thing is you are completely serious about this. Women being able to wear pants had nothing to do with wanting to be men. Wearing pants wasn't the good part of being a man. It was, rather, symbolic of the "good parts". You know, like voting, owning property, and you know having rights beyond what hat to wear.

Karen, as I had said, this thread was never meant to be about me per se. I was just starting the ball rolling, so to speak, by relating how my thought process got started, in a conversation with my wife. I thought I was pretty clear from the get-go on that and repeated it. Once it transformed into a lot about me, I went ahead and gave out my situation.

I am sorry you are upset that I didn't respond directly to your post. By the time I was next online, there were several posts. To respond to every point, in every single post would have taken me forever.

And, yes, I was amazed at the direction the thread had gone. Of course, this happens all the time, in almost every thread---still it was interesting. I don't think it takes a super intelligence to figure out what my questions were asking, really. Sorry to disagree. It sorta seemed that a lot of people got it, at least mostly. Frankly, it didn't even matter if they did. There were valid discussions about lots of things that matter to TGs.

Anyway, sorry not to respond to all those that posted her. I have read every post and appreciate the comments.

Peace!!!!! :beatup:

Kelli,
No problem, I have no hard feelings towards you or anyone else, were all sisters here one way or the other, and you don't need to be sorry either, because I wasn't really wasn't all that upset.
And I Did understand that this wasn't just about You per say, as you clearly stated in post #16, but that's about the only part I did get..LOL..

The way I saw your thread was, you are in a situation with your spouse about TG issues, and were looking for other members take on how they felt or would handle if they were put into that situation with their spouse or family members.

I said the questions you asked were confusing to me because of the way you worded it, and the reason I say that, is because it's rather too vague for me, in other words, to answer those questions would depend on many, many different circumstances, so know one can really give a cut & dry answer to it, and can only answer it based on their own particular circumstances,
which most likely will differ from yours or another persons.

This why I was asking you in particular about Your circumstances, because without that, I otherwise viewed you questions pointless and too vague.

So I gave an somewhat generic view in my post, and based it on what I was interpreting(obviously wrong) from what you did write, so used that as an example only. but could apply to anyone that's younger knowing they have TG issues now and contemplating going into a marriage for their 1st time, and thought this may help someone avoid a situation later on down the road.

But Overall, I think it turned out as a wonderful thread though, because it shows how we view what a relationship is all about, and how relationships can evolve in time, some grow into stronger & better ones, and some not so good, and that goes for any relationship, and to introduce an issue such as CD'g or anything not considered the norm into it, is certainly a true test for any relationship.

As far as my own relationship with the same woman for 25 years, 20 of those married and with 2 children, I wish I could turn the clock Way back, because I know I would of handled my own life completely differently based on what I have learned and finally come to terms with today. So it is very true that with age comes wisdom but only because we have lots of experience and have mad lots of mistakes in our past. I sure know I have.

Bats, when you grow up and actually have some more time under your belt, you will see your very wrong about relationships and marriage, because you sound like some college bookworm that just reads stats all day, but has no true experience what a real relationship is all about.

And where did you read that 1 in 3 women get raped?? some 3rd world nation maybe, but not here in USA.

I'm just a dumb blond, LOL..
Karen

Kelli,

I think the problem here is that is is not a choice, at least not one which one could take easily. For most CD's, at least those who started at an early age, it is an integral part of their personality, and therefore to stop CD'ing would be severely limiting their personal development.

One could of course stop CD'ing for the sake of keeping the peace, or making an altruistic sacrifice for the benefit of others, but "at the end of the day" it's your life too, and you need to decide want you want most.

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Originally Posted by Madame George

Really, this is a right the feminists fought for? When? Honestly, in ALL of my gender and womens studies classes, this is the first I've heard of it. Oh, and as a stickler for the details, I would appreciate citation/documentation.

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It was involved in the broad reforms of marriage, amongst the right to own seperate property the right to control over reproduction and consent to sex, the right to a doctors confidentiallity so that a husband was not informed of their every medical decision nor could contravene their medical choices especially regarding contraception and other reproduction issues.

Sorry I cant give you sources but I no longer own the books on the subject. Nevertheless it was very much involved in self-determination, in legal confidentiality from that of lawyers including divorce lawyers, doctors etc.

As when a husband was legally able to access all information about their wives then all manner of inequities occured and women were unable often to protect their own personal assets etc. So defending a right to personal privacy was vital for property and reproductive and health issues of womens rights.

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Are you really sure about this? I noticed your location was Australia, so are you speaking as an Aussie? Just so you know, this is not true in The States. Children, under the age of 18 living with their parents do not have a right to privacy under the law. Spouses also do not have a right to privacy under the law. The state thing used to be true, but then we had this lovely little thing called the Patriot Act happen and that blew that right to hell and back.

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The right exists as a matter of philosophical principle as well as codified in many professional ethics obligations irrespective of legal recognition of said. For example a child of an abusive parent will usually get confidentiality from a doctor or lawyer so that the parent is not informed that the child has sought help untill they have been able to get out of the parents control. You may like to read up on things like the United Nations Convention of the Rights of Children etc.

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Again, citation/documentation.

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Iirc I put the link on the forum once before, from a comment by a sexologist. But I didn't keep the link beyond that. As for numbers of TSs which is neccessary for said comparison I was going by Lynn Conway's figures on TS prevalance.

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Did anyone here, CD, TS, or partner say that they were *ALWAYS* honest to everyone about everything? Here's the rub. Communication and honesty are IMHO two of the most important aspects needed in a trans relationship. A CD or TS has issues with their gender and, believe it or not, that has effects on their partner's gender as well. If we're not willing to talk about how we feel to each other, then how are we to be able to empathize with someone we profess to love?

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Oh I agree that in general that is the best course of action and in all things communication is vital to a fiar and healthy relationship. However, the expectation that everyone is capable emotionally, psychologically to be so brave, so vulnerable, so trusting is just not valid! As the many examples of the victims of rape shows! People who go through life being forced by public scorn and condemnation or the fear of same to hide part of themselves are just not always so capable!

A rape-survivor may have sexual and intimacy and mental-health issues of a profound nature that very often does have serious impacts on the marriage and on the family! Butit is just not fair to expect them to be capable of overcoming the fear and shame and guilt and pain they feel to confess that from the outset! Sure some can. But many cannot! For many it takes years of growing trust and feellings of safety within a relationship for them to feel capable of disclosing such information!

And the same phenomenon can be found in other oppressed/traumatised groups and other relationships. Whether it's someone confessing they are gay/lesbian/bi to parents, people confessing they have become athiest to wives/parents/children etc there are many many issues where such things are not easy to reveal. The more stigmatised the thing and the closer the relationship, the more traumatised and scared the person and the more expectations they feel to others the harder it is to confess such a thing!

Being a CD does not suddenly become an exception to this.

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You're absolutely right. I would add, if we're talking about someone doing body modifications or something that would effect their spouse or relationship, they also have the right to expect a very abrupt ending to their relationship.

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Absolutely not! One never has a right to expect any fair and free choice of another, merely respect it! Gaining weight is body modification that can effect a relationship. Getting plastic surgery, tattoos, piercings, haircuts, gastric bypasses, hair transplants etc etc... all body-modifictions that can effect a relationship. And just as no-one has the right to demand a spouse get a boob-job, an abortion, have a child, lose weight etc then the opposite is also true and they have no right to demand they do not!

Yes a person may state what they would rather their spouse do. But the final say is the person whose body it is from a haircut to childbirth! And sure the spouse may decide that they do not love their partner enough to respect their choice/need and is free to leave as any spouse should always be free to leave for any reason at any time to make staying conditional on getting their own way over their partner is emotional blackmail and direct clear abuse!

So sure, if someones partner decides to leave because they have not obeyed their wishes of course that choice must be respected. But it needs to always be respected as an option for both partners in the first place. Someone may choose to fit in with a partners wishes and its often good for both to do that to a point. But the final say over the individuals body is that of the individual. And using threats of leaving is controlling, it is coercive, it is abuse.

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No matter how you rationalize it, people don't exist in vacuums. When we get into relationships we open our lives up to someone else, and they to us. When that relationship becomes long-term, such as in the case of marriage, major changes have a powerful rippling effect.

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Of course. But that does not give others a right of veto or control over others.

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No. A tomboy is not necessarily transgender. A tomboy is most often a girl or woman who exhibits qualities that are associated with boys. She is, in most cases, not trying to "be" a boy. Just herself.

From Susan Stryker, "In any case, it is the movement across a socially-imposed boundary away from an unchosen starting place - rather than any particular destination or mode of transition."

It is my understanding that being trans is an identity. So just because someone transgresses gender norms doesn't mean they're transgender. Unless they see themselves as being so. YMMV.

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A Genderqueer person is just being themselves too. One could use that statement for all of TG. A transsexual is beung themselves, it is just that to do so they must modify their anatomy to be in accordance with their self-identity.

There is indeed Transgender Identity but that is not all there is to the term transgender. Plenty of words have an academic meaning seperate from their social one! People could be catagorised as Transgender before the term came into usage. So it is more than an identity but also a descriptive catagory. It easilly can be both and used as either or both. Transgender can mean beyond gender as well as changing that which pertains to, and is catagorised by relation to, the sexes.

And a thing can be defined by what it is opposite to too, so that all people who face discrimination because of gender expectation non-conformity very much are alike and as tomboys often face this as they enter their teens so too do they face gender-expression-bias. Which then makes them catagorisable as Trans-Gender regardless of self-identity.

Regarding women and pants:

C'mon folks, this is history we are talking about here! Both are right and plenty of examples can be found! Yes there was the practicality arguments! Women demanded the right to wear pants to be more able to flee attackers and rapists. They demanded them so they could ride bicycles and thus have independant mobility and not be dependant on men for their transportation too. But there were also many who wore mens clothes as fashion! There were famous women who dressed in mens clothes as political statements or because they liked to do so. The French Lesbian scene which had a profound part to play on the emerging womens rights movement involved a lot of crossdressing!

So many of the pioneers of womens pants wearing were crossdresing women and many were not! And one can see fashions being advertised even today as 'menswear for women' so it is clearly the case that plenty of women like wearing masculine clothes partly because they are masculine. And I have butch lesbian friends who love wearing pinstripe suits and having male haircuts who very much fit that bill as well as a Straight Cis GG friend who loves wearing mens clothes and even playing a male sexual role with her partner!

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Originally Posted by Karen564

Bats, when you grow up and actually have some more time under your belt, you will see your very wrong about relationships and marriage, because you sound like some college bookworm that just reads stats all day, but has no true experience what a real relationship is all about.

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I'm almost 33, my last relationship lasted almost 6 years and involved mental health issues (hers, much of which involved only-partially-disclosed childhood trauma) was abusive (on her part, mostly as a consequence of her mental health issues). Just because I have gained objective knowledge does not mean I have no subjective experiential knowledge. And most importantly the latter is always less valid than the former because it is filled with subjective bias!

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And where did you read that 1 in 3 women get raped?? some 3rd world nation maybe, but not here in USA.

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Its the current (last I heard) often-reported-in-the-media stat for Australia! And I'd be surprised if America is really that beter. Got the stats for the USA?

There is plenty of evidence that the number of males is actually much higher because while both rarely report their abuse males are much less likely to do so especially if the perpetrator was female! I know several men who'd been raped or suffered attempted rape by women.

Much more than the men i know had been raped by men, which numbers just one and the perpetrator was a priest. I also know a woman in her late 50's who was raped by a nun at a catholic boarding school. Another female friend has been raped three times in her life and isn't quite 30. And i learned this week that one friend had been raped by 7 people at different occassions, one repeatedly over several years.. and she's not even 20!

The point is most of these people do not tell others about this! So even those I've been told about are likely the tip of the iceberg!