Make up counter ladies, Cross your legs!

So I have a friend that is a make up artist at some of the larger apartment stores, she has been doing this for years. she has NO IDEA that I am transgendered, so we where chatting via facebook and I teased her that I was going to come visit her at her work some day. This started her joking around about the guys that come in and get makeovers.

I asked her pretty straight forward questions and what i learned is that the women she works with DO NOT LIKE working on crossdressers, Her opinion was that they are gross and ugly and will never be good looking women.

THIS HURT INSIDE, and really discourages me but it wont make me quit. I wanted to tell her that I too would totally do this but that would not really turn out to well for me so I didnt.

So I guess the secret to getting a makeover from the makeup lady means you have to find a GG who is totally real. Otherwise its an illusion we say to ourselves to keep our confidence up. She did day that most of the crossdressers that do come in are very proud of who they are, but she still thinks we are gross and wierd but will always take our money.

Sorry to be such a downer. I never really thought she would be one to share this side of me. And now atleast I know.

She said the worst thing about a crossdresser is they usually sit like a man in the chair with their legs apart whie wearing a dress, her quote was " if you want to look like a lady, you need to act like a lady too" otherwise it is just gross"
So ladies, cross your legs when you get a makeover. The women will be more accepting, they may not like us personally but they will be more comfortable when they take our money.

Interesting, You kind of popped my bubble. Although I have never had a make over at a dept store counter I always thought it would be fun. I do understand that our money spends well. I think the Mac stores maybe better at least at humoring us and that counts for something. Most of us can't fool to many people if they really look at us and a make up artist will certainly look close. I guess we just have to grin and bear it

Kerigirl,
I am feeling very low after reading what your friend told you. Knowing that your makeup artist is laughing and ridiculing behind one's back is depressing.

Sorry to be the downer on this. I know that I dont pass, but I think I can blend well. I am not under the illusion that we are well liked, but that is only becausse they dont know us, simply because we always hide to save our own embarrassment. For me, I will still one day go out and have a makeover, but first I will be picky about who does it.
Sorry ladies. Keep your chin up, chests out and cross your legs. we will go on.

Reality bites, but the more feed back we get maybe we can do a better job at presenting ourselves to gain public acceptance. I too am discouraged by the looks I get sometimes, like if I was some kind of circus freak, but then find when I'm on, people, ( mostly women) treat me well. It's the guys that really give me the freak show looks! A bit of a ramble, but I think as a group we should take criticism constructively.

The people that give me a hard time are teenagers, not so much over the last 2-3 years, and males of any age but usually between the ages of 20 to 40's.

Thanks for sharing Sheri. I don't believe all feel that way, and actually it may be more her issue than the others nbased on reading your post "but she still thinks we are gross and weird but will always take our money." At the same time, I think we sometimes get carried away thinking that tolerance is the same as acceptance. Those two concepts may merge at the edges, but acceptance is the more important goal out there. I always try to bring myself back to earth after a fabulous evening out meeting new people who make me feel that I am no different than anybody else. However, I do know that I am something new and fun to them, so they tolerate and enjoy my company and do not necessarily accept who and what I am. I like you idea of keeping your makeover goal on your bucket list. Don't let her spoil your joy. Just take it as another learning and eye opening experience.

I am pleased that some people are straight and honest.
I totally agree with her and when I do not get some criticism of my looks I am on my guard.
I am always careful to not weird the SA's out by stating my case early in the piece and I finish up with a great interaction with them.
They do not mind helping a man trying to be a woman.
We generally do appear weird and although accepted, weird is still there.
I do prefer to be told my shortcomings so as I can work on them than be given false confidence and go out just "too weird."
If I am asked on this forum how someone looks I will try "tactfully" to say it is not all that good, because the person has probably worked on that guy in a dress and made many improvements. Me, I am on a downhill slope now and do not look nearly as good as when I was twenty.

At that time I had five girls to show me how to groom myself and present myself correctly.
Comments like downright ugly and very bad deportment helped me to the stage of "OK and you walk better now".
This increased to "God I wish I could look like you do now and I like the sexy walk much better now".
This inspired confidence because it came from my chief critics.
To finish it off, "don't wear that wear this instead" meant I could carry of the "delusion" of looking like a girl as long as I did'nt open my mouth too much.
Over time that improved too.

Nice insight in to the way they look at us.

I've had 2 makeover in past years, both at nationally known Ulta. They were horrible, one was overdone like a hooker the other made me look like the circus was in town and I was the featured clown with goofy over done purple eye shadow. I can do a much better job myself, as well as saving money and being wrapped in afalse pink fog ego trip.To get my wigs styled. I've learned to do that too very well too and save $35 or have my wife do it. Both make overs were done by beauticians ( one the studio manager) who had never worked on a crossnesses before. They won't on me again, thats for sure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kerigirl2009

Her opinion was that they.....will never be good looking women.

---

Reality sucks especially when it blind-sides you. If I am being honest and using GGs as a reference point, she is right more times than wrong. I am being literal and factoring in the "good looking" part of the statement. I am a member of an active and large sized TG group. As much as it pains me to admit, the majority of the members would not be considered to be good looking women with many being easily read. Sorry if this seems harsh, but it is reality (at least, my version of it) and it sucks. The bothersome part for me is them finding cross dressers gross.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kerigirl2009

.....really discourages me but it wont make me quit.
So I guess the secret to getting a makeover from the makeup lady means you have to find a GG who is totally real. Otherwise its an illusion we say to ourselves to keep our confidence up.

---

I am unclear about what "have to find a GG who is totally real" means in this context. IMHO, there is no secret. It is about not getting discouraged and not caring too much whether the makeup person thinks you are a good looking woman. Confidence comes from within. If you feel good and think you look good, own it and let that be the source of your confidence. Find a makeup sales associate who treats you well and takes care of you. What they think inside is not as important unless it affects their behavior towards you. If it does, go to someone else. Find one who makes you feel comfortable. I doubt her and her colleague's comments are representative of everyone. If a sales associate is truly driven by making a sale, they are going to do a good job regardless of the customer since making the customer look good makes the sale. The sales associates have plenty of GG customers who would not be considered to be good looking. I bet occasional comments are made behind their backs also.

Acceptance and tolerance are two different things. We cannot control what others think and feel. I can judge tolerance by someone's behavior, but I cannot measure their level of acceptance unless it is blatantly obvious. I cannot make someone accept me, but I can demand and expect a reasonable level of tolerance and respect.

one person does not represent a group. Your sample size is just too small to make the conclusion you have drawn. This ONE person has these feelings but that is no reason to give up the ghost.

Take in to consideration that the girl might have been telling you what she thinks a guy would want to hear... it might change her attitude if someone she knows did it. Consider asking her to do you over just for curiosity sake to see how well you could look... probably wouldn't do it in the context of being tg though. I would take the crossing the legs thing with a grain of salt...it just means sit lady like, it doesn't mean try to act all girly...which probably wouldn't go well... I think the key is to be respectful and if they can see you are decent person they should respect you too.

I have known plenty of MUAs/cosmetologists/etc. and it is true - some of them do indeed feel that way. You know what? You can tell. Does it matter? Nope. Are they going to do the service you've asked them to? They'd better. You are the customer, after all. Now if they're so "grossed out" that they're just slapping the makeup on you, then by all means - get up, thank them for their time, and leave. If, however, you cultivate a friendship with them, and be "real" in turn, you will have a much better outcome.

You say that your friend doesn't know you're transgendered, so I have to ask; are you being "totally real?" It's a two-way street.

Kathi

Your friend was generalizing the situation to someone whom she thinks is a typical unapproving member of society. She has painted a stereotypical image (ugly CDer sitting like a man in a dress) because she thinks that it will entertain you. If she knew about you her story would be considerably different.

The fact of life is that makeup artists in department stores seldom get to work on Halle Berry, Anne Hathaway, or Nicole Kidman. Their typical customers are pimply teenagers, weathered forty- and fifty-somethings and, yes, CDers. Their favorite customers are the ones who buy a lot of product. Make no mistake. These are professional salespeople. The best ones make their customers feel welcome regardless of their personal feelings.

You shouldn't feel bad because one person says something negative. Let it roll off and move on to something more positive.

Kerrigirl, while your post is certainly a reality check in that it warns us that we can't become delusional about just how widespread acceptance sometimes appears to be, it is not all "doom and gloom" either. I've never had a makeover done at a department store make up counter myself, but to hear some of the ladies here tell it, they have had wonderful and self-affirming experiences at MAC, Ulta, Sephora, and at times Merle Norman locations.

I think the key here is to find a make up artist who by her very nature is TG-friendly to begin with, and the rest all falls into place after that. I found one lovely lady (Kelly) whom I have gone to for the past 3 years and who operates her own studio out of her home. She treats me just like one of her regular GG customers (better, in fact, I sometimes suspect), knows my likes and dislikes, and has helped me develop a look that generally enables me to blend in seamlessly when out in public, if not downright "pass" at times.

My sessions with Kelly are not only make up applications, we chat, laugh, and gossip about this, that, and the other just like two GG's. I swear that she sometimes almost seems to forget that I am a male underneath it all, so caught up in the moment do we sometimes become. It is a total "girly" experience for me each time I go there, and I would venture to guess that I have the same rapport with her that my wife has with her hairdresser of many years' standing.

That said, I first found Kelly via an Internet search, and in an introductory e-mail identified myself as to what I was, what I was looking for, and asked if she would be willing to take me on as a client. Her initial response was not only positive, it was downright enthusiastic, and the rest is history.

True, some GG's who are the SA's, make up artists, and nail techs etc. whom we come into contact with might find us "weird" or "gross" initially, and may even be reluctant to deal with us because they have had no previous experience with crossdressers and have had their perception of our community shaped by the likes of Jerry Springer and the train wreck of a show that he presides over as ringmaster. I suspect that in these instances, if we unexpectedly plop ourselves down in front of them at a department store make up counter, it might make for an unexpected and therefore awkward encounter for them. But in my experience, for each GG of this type who shies away from us, there are a dozen others who are intrigued by us and our lifestyle, and jump at the chance to get to know us better and work with us.

The fundamental trick to pulling this off is - no surprises! And as we all know, to know us is to love us...;)

.......................

Tonight my car started messing up. I will have to crawl under it to find what I believe is the problem. However - when it happened, I didn't feel anywhere near as bad as when I read the OP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eryn

If she knew about you her story would be considerably different.

---

Eryn is right. it works the same way as when a bigot tries to claim they have a lot of (pick a race) friends the minute they are exposed as the prejudice ass they are.

Now if the friend was just saying this "gross" story to entertain Keri, that shows another problem - this friend, like many people, is wishy washy, probably like her co-workers. If Keri were to mention being CD, all the sudden this girl would claim to have a gay brother, crossdressing uncle, or lesbian sister. Haven't we all heard that before?

Look folks, I used to go to beauty school. The WOMEN there had no problem with me. Thing is, the GIRLS there did have problems. I call some of them girls cause they are not mature enough to be called women. You would think the beauty field would be near devoid of bigots and small minds but there still are plenty.

This thing with people calling CDs "gross" isn't just for the CDs. People tend to feel that way about TS as well. It is a problem for all TG folks. All we can do is wait for the media to promote more TG so the rest of the mindless bigots out there can be programmed.

Oh and you think it bites to hear we are "gross", just wait til someone says "I used to know a CD/TS but with her, you could never tell she used to be a guy". THAT remark hurts much worse. I guess it is just a one-up'sman thing. You study kung-fu but an acquaintance feels the need to tell you about a guy he knew who was 10 times tougher than Chuck Norris...

My thing is - I know I don't pass that well, yet I live full time. I know some people are weirded out or probably talk shit when I leave. I don't care much these days, mostly I just turn a cold shoulder to strangers. I mean we cannot change who we are, but it doesn't mean we have to "love thy neighbor".

EDIT - about the "wonderful experiences" at the makeup places - do not forget these girls are trying to make a buck. Young women are masters of putting on a fake act of friendliness when they want something.
Think of this - when you were younger and trying to flirt with the pretty girls in public, they would often act "too good for you" but when they wanted something, they would pour on the charm. Like if they were selling something and here would be their squeaky high voice and a smile. yet any other time they act like bitches. Never take a young pretty woman's friendliness as genuine.

What I've read in this thread is so true. It's sad that we can't just look at each other as people with feelings. It seems like there are many that need someone to bully or pick on. Even if someone is putting on a fake face, if they do it well, it feels better than if you feel that they are laughing at you or think that you are gross. Most of the GG's that I've dealt with, if you ask them some questions on how you might be a better girl or something similar, they seem to be very helpful. I've also had some that are more interested in getting your money and you out of their store though; which are the ones that I don't go back to.

This is a very interesting thread ! It would be nice to find a CD friendly makeover artist in Colorado... I should see if there are any CD groups in Meetup... might also be a good source of like minded peeps... Locally ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DanaR

Most of the GG's that I've dealt with, if you ask them some questions on how you might be a better girl or something similar, they seem to be very helpful. I've also had some that are more interested in getting your money and you out of their store though; which are the ones that I don't go back to.

---

With places that just want customers to pay and be gone, they are just trying to get volume. Think of doctors for example - They spend all of 5 minutes with a patient and onto the next one. I don't think being TG has much to do with that.

With GG's trying to help one look better - it is true, they do enjoy helping. Not because they want to help, but because they like to flaunt their knowledge. many people do that. That is what they mean by "charity begins at home".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DanielleO

This is a very interesting thread ! It would be nice to find a CD friendly makeover artist in Colorado... I should see if there are any CD groups in Meetup... might also be a good source of like minded peeps... Locally ?

---

I'm told there are active CD Meetup groups in both Denver and the Springs, though I've not investigated them personally. Don't know about up north where you are. And yes, there are a few of us "like minded people" locally. Quite a few, in fact...:)

I'm also viewing this thread with interest, because I'm currently setting aside money so that I'll be able to get my own MAC makeover come summer.

- Amy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nicole Erin

With places that just want customers to pay and be gone, they are just trying to get volume. Think of doctors for example - They spend all of 5 minutes with a patient and onto the next one. I don't think being TG has much to do with that.

---

You are probably right, I didn't think of it that way. When someone is trying to rush me out the door, then I'll probably look for somewhere else to spend my money.

Hi.

I would have to say this is not the case here i have over 7 who do makeup & the like ,& i aoganised a group to come & see my friends who were & are very good in one of our biggest makeup store's some 6 men dressed in feme, how they sat was not an issue i had discused the detail that they were men now thier makeup was done for free , if they wonted to buy any products was up to them .

Now im a woman & i dont cross my legs very much because of injurys to my hip. i just sit like a normal woman with my knees close together, is there a issue with that , no of cause not because many women dont cross thier legs ,

The point of gross ugly, & never look like women is correct many men i have seen & know are like that , they cant help how they are as to how they look even with makeup . as to ugly many men look quite lovely .whats ugly in context to age, both men & women.

Now as to looking like womem . as a female im very aware of this, not all of those of us who are female have ...those female looks...so you can only do the best with what you are born with . surgery is not going to happen,

any way my friends have accepted who i am as a person its not based on looks theres a lot more to us as people than just how you look,

I wonder what she would think & or say had i been there, oh heres another dresser even a trans, sorry mam im a female think again. ....but but but ....& i dont wear makeup dont need it,

& as to a good looking woman , im not & never will be, yet im still female who is a woman. love to see her face when she stands in front of myself, now how about a photo or two. im up for it email me & ill try & send some over .

...noeleena...

your post makes me feel very fortunate to have my girl friend. she was helping me with makeup (i just started dressing about 3 months ago) and she told me she hasn't ever made anyone up before, and we talked about getting a makeover somewhere that would be accepting.
she already knew what the attitude would be in a lot of places, and was concerned that what happened to you would happen to me. we went to a wig store where the sales person was just obtuse. (i ordered two on the net, should be here friday)
so the next day, my gf tells me she got ahold of a "pink cadillac" (don't know the rules about brand names) distributor who manages in our area of New York, and that she had scheduled a home makeover with her for me. this is great for me, as this consultant has done this many times for crossdressers and is comfortable with us. she'll be here saturday morning!