I get it we lied to our SOs. . . but please

I apologize in advance as this is another lengthy Isha rant thread :)

Hi all. I know I have not been here a long time but I have made it daily habit to read a majority of the posts. The ones I find interesting are the ones that hit close to home. No more prolific subject appears than "coming out". I myself as some you may know only recently came out to my wife of 24 years. Yup, kept that secret buried and hidden from her for that long . . . :eek:

Does that make me a bad person, facetious, the evil master of the netherworld, or a criminal? No. It makes me human and guess what humans make mistakes, exercise poor judgement or heaven forbid try to insulate themselves from harm, ridicule or just plain nastiness. I did not wake up one day and say . . . "Hey I'm bored what can I do to ruin a life. Ah ha, I think I am going to start wearing dresses and panties, find a woman, marry her, keep it a secret and then drop it on her after 24 years." No. I couldn't change who I was, if it was that easy I wouldn't be here. Instead, I carried this secret locked deep inside because I was embarrassed and confused.

Funny thing about the human psyche and identity, we are composed of several which we carry through life and they make sense . . . There is the me identity (who I am where I fit in), the male identity (boys do boy things), my military identity, my husband identity and a whole list of identities that synch. Then along comes Isha and guess what, she doesn't synch with the rest . . . can you say psyche short circuit . . .oh yeah. We (humans) don't deal well with things that upset our sense of self and our psyche will try to insulate us. Some people repress (did my share of that), hide and hope for the best (been there done that) but eventually we either have to embrace and incorporate or suffer the emotional repercussions. In some instances we come out to our wives or it is discovered. In either case the cat is out the bag, the three hundred pound elephant now has a name and everyone has see the guy in the gorilla suit. Now it has to be dealt with.

For the most part, everyone provides great and appropriate advice/comments. But for some the undertone of the advice is "shame, shame, bad, bad, liar, liar pants on fire". Don't get me wrong, I get it, we lied to our SOs some of us for years but as I said above it was not done with malice it was done to protect. When I met my wife I fell instantly in love with her :love:, we just belonged together. Was I secretly wearing lingerie at nights when we weren't together? Yup. Did I continue to engage in my proclivities after marriage? Yup. Did I think about telling her before marriage? Briefly, but I was afraid I would loose her. Does that make me a bad person? No. I wanted to maintain the companionship and love I found. We are after all is said and done, social creatures.

So next question, why not come clean sooner? Why? Because it was a shameful secret. We would be naïve to think society writ large sees us as normal and not some freakish "Dressed to Kill Tranny". So, I insulated myself, protected myself and in some crazy "seven degrees of something" wanted to protect my wife from knowing this horrible, shameful thing. Now before anyone goes of on the "that's just being selfish" band wagon I dare anyone on this forum to do a bit of introspective soul searching and tell me that they have never hidden something from their family or SO because you didn't think they would understand or you would loose them "Let s/he who has not sinned cast the first stone".

So to bottle the genie. I really find it quite harsh that a lot of replies make those of us who come out feel like deviants and bad people because we chose not to say on our first date with someone "Oh by the way, I really like your skirt, can I borrow it sometime as it goes with my new heels".

We did nothing wrong in protecting ourselves, we are not bad people and we should not be made to feel as though we are. What we are guilty of is being human and making a bad judgement call (God help us if we were all perfect . . . what a boring world this would be). Do we owe our SOs and explanation? You bet. Do we need to make amends? Yes. Do we have to cower in the corner and take every ultimatum our SO throws at us or walk on eggshells in order to be accepted? No. We cannot change who we are anymore then you can stop the world from turning.

If the relationship is going to survive, two parties need to work together to make it survive. One party (GG or CD) cannot have a position of power over the other, that is just wrong. Talking, sharing, truth, caring, loving are all good constructs but it has to be from a level/equal playing field not one-sided. My wife and I talk everyday. She puts her foot down on some things, I put mine down on others (this includes CDing and everyday life). We find common ground and move on. The minute one party has all the power "My way or the highway" well . . . sounds a bit abusive.

Final rant . . . I know, when will this girl shut up :).

Just because someone has chosen not to come out . . . please cut them some slack. Dig deep in to your own past. How long did you carry your secret before you came out? If you are one of these rare birds who came out immediately, then good for you, I applaud your courage and choice. However, everyone has to make the decision for themselves and unless we can walk a mile in her heels, we should not be wagging our fingers and saying "shame, shame".

Once again, I relinquish the soap box.

Hugs

Isha

Isha, I know that I didn't come clean early in my marriage because I was yet to be honest with myself and being a "baby boomer" there wa no internet and very little literature I could find in my college library related to what I was feeling. What I did find pathologized it which made me feel even more ashamed of who I was and wanted to be. The first thing I told her (and I think this might be common, at least in my age group) is that I wanted to wear her panties, which she let me do, and even got some of my own which she has tolerated. As I've understood more that I am trans, I've tried many times to talk with her about this and it hasn't gone well. I imagine that had we both been older when we got married, had I been born into a later generation, and had I been more comfortable with my own gender identity perhaps, as much as I love her we may not have gotten married. So, that's why I didn't tell sooner. The other thing is I think that I thought that once I was married the urges to dress would decrease. Of course the opposite happened as I then began sharing a dresser bureau and closet with an attractive woman and both were filled with things I wanted to wear. Nancy

Thank you! I could not have said it any better!

Very nice post Isha
The reason I never came out to her atfirst was being afraid of the consequences of hiding it from here and losing everything we both had worked so hard to acheive.
I can understand how others feel especially with children involved. We didnt have any so it wasnt too difficult minus the argueing. yelling and crying.
Some of us get realy lucky and they accept us as the same person they fell in love with but with a twist.
All I can say I wish everyone luck on heir choice, it is entirely up to them if they wanna disclose themselves to their S/O.
Theres a time and place for everything.
Renee

Isha;

Nice thread , One point that hardly anyone comments on is in a relationship of many years there are a lot of post marital factors that cause stress on the relationship that build like steam in a pressure cooker. So when "The Big Reveal" happens it gives the spouse a reason or opportunity to end the relationship.

So many marriages and relationships end not because of crossdressing, but because the spouse or SO were already being treated poorly to begin with.

Some of the common complaints in a relationship that lead to divorce and separation.

Grumpy when you come home for work.
Financially insecure (bills not being paid)
Help around the house (cleaning, picking up after yourself and others)
Not date you spouse from time to time.
Ignoring the physical and spiritual needs of your spouse or SO

Work at being happy, at least most of the time.

Count me into the group of shame Isha. Married for 32 years before I came out and we'd been together since ours early teens. Nearly 40 years all in.

Essentially, my predilection for dressing grew over the years and was not something I was partaking in on a regular basis. Also, it was sexually based in the early years, so blurting out that, "Darling I'm a weird type of perv that likes having single-person sex whilst wearing your clothes" is probably not going to go down too well with many GGs,.....I'm guessing. Hence the secrecy here.

Over time, the fetish element has diminished and has led to me becoming "just a CD". Yes honesty is lovely, but the gradual increase in desire to dress over the years, coupled with finding this site, is what eventually led me to come clean to my wife. I had to weigh how she might react and I took the plunge, which I'm glad I did. However, I will not judge others as to whether they tell or not. All moral stances aside, or whatever the personal opinion, it is someone else's life to live, not mine.

Rebecca

Thanks Isha very well written, I was one that did come out to my wife before marriage and did that work out, well not so much. She was ok with it fit a while but I got way to selfish. So is there a good time to do it I would say no. It's a feel thing and it's never easy especially for the wife, cause she feels guilty too, like did I do something wrong give off bad vibes. So it's never easy on either side. Thanks again Isha

Thanks for that Isha. Well said. It's all too true. I, too, did not reveal this to my wife when we married. It took several years, and it's still something we simply don't talk about. Does it make me evil? Nope. I was just afraid to lose her. And while she stayed with me after she found out, had she known much earlier, she'd probably have bolted on me. That was a prospect that I just couldn't bear, and I'm happy that she is still my wife. Sure, I wish she was accepting, but despite the skewed numbers we find on these forums, I think that it's likely that around 80% of wives and girlfriends don't want anything to do with this, and really don't approve of it in the men in their lives.

Isha - a really good post that addresses an issue that a lot of us have. For that alone, your post deserves to be applauded.

To address your post, firstly, I will never, ever, look down on anyone who comes out, irrespective of the time that they come out - be it at the start of a relationship, 20 years plus into a relationship, or before a relationship has had a chance to form. But timing (that is when a cd does come out) plays a huge part in how their revelation will be received. There is no escaping that fact. Also the circumstances surrounding the "revelation" will also play a part. A wife/partner finds out off her own accord (either by stumbling across clothes in the house that are not hers (thus forcing her partner to tell the truth), or seeing a picture, or an internet page), or a wife/partner is told by her husband/partner, many years down the line. Both scenarios require answers from the cd, from her partner, and both of those scenarios will result in a trust being broken, a lie being apparent, about the time that they spent with their partner prior to the revelation being made/discovered.

There is no need for me to dwell on this here. Everyone here knows this all too well.

The biggest problem for the partner however does lie in the fact that their SO has lived a lie for so long. Has held a significant part of their persona back from the person they had supposedly given their all to. That results in a huge bridge to overcome. And it will invariably result in the notion of trust being diminished. It may result in an SO wondering to themselves "what else is there that he hasn't told me". In short, doubt will rise to the fore, and become something in the mind of the SO in regards to how real, how truthful, their relationship is.

In an ideal world, every single CD WOULD come out on their very first date with a partner. In an ideal world, no CD wouldn't need to hold back their identity as a CD to anyone. We don't live in an ideal world however. And yet it is because we don't live in an ideal world that results in so many CD's remaining in the closet, or keeping a part of them hidden from the people who matter to them the most. But irrespective of the state of the world, irrespective of how much CD's are accepted or not, no partner/SO is deserving of being lied to. No partner/SO is deserving of having a partner who keeps a significant part of their live secret.

It's too strong a word to say that a CD who doesn't reveal the truth about themselves is a liar. They're not. Such CD's are simply scared of the consequences. The possibility of losing their partner as a result of being honest. But quite frankly, that is not justification enough when it comes to relationships. For it's not only our own sensitivities that we are dealing with here. It's the feelings of others. I, personally, have much more respect of the CD's who are able to be honest right from the outset, at the risk of losing a potential partner, than those who suppress their true selves, in the hope of keeping a potential partner.

Honesty, being truthful, should never be something that should be frowned upon. Not being honest, being truthful, even if only to avoid the risk of loss, should never be something that is valued.

Honesty right from the outset for me. It worked for me in my current relationship. I told my (now) husband right from the start about my crossdressing. In the past, I revealed this side of me to partners who reacted in a variety of ways (from acceptance to complete disgust). If I had told a previous partner right from the outset, maybe they wouldn't have gotten emotionally involved with me. And you know what - that is their choice - their right - to make that decision. I, and no one else, has any right to get emotionally involved with anyone under false pretenses, that is, by holding back a part of your personality - a significant part - that, if ever revealed, will result in your now emotionally attached partner looking at you in a completely different light, and not only that, but looking back on the relationship you've had so far with a completely different view. No one, I repeat, no one, deserves that.

Thanks, Isha. You have put into words what I have know in my heart for years was right for some, but maybe not others. Everyone must make up there minds as what to do in life. Not just about cding, but everything.

Our present situation, at any given time, determines what we do with the information we have in front of us. I have found there are not many givens in life, but we do live with the choices we make.

For most of us, the fact that we crossdress is a secret. It is usually viewed as a noble thing to be able to keep someone else's secrets that we may become privy to, and not blab them to one and all. Divulging secrets is generally considered to be morally wrong. When the secret is our own, it may be a burden to another person to divulge that secret to him or her if it is supposed to remain a secret. Occasionally there may be individuals who should be party to a personal secret, such as a spouse or parent, but the decision to divulge it is not a clear cut one.

Divulging a secret can be foolhardy or it could be beneficial. Which result will ensue is anybody's guess and depends upon a great many factors. It's significance to everyday life, the personalities and attitudes of the people involved, moral and ethical considerations, as well as the nature of the secret all enter into making the correct decision. As one who has been sworn to secrecy several times in my lifetime, I can attest to the burden that such knowledge can create. Even when the individuals involved have passed on, their legacy lives on for their relatives and their descendants, and is something we should not tarnish. There are secrets I will have to carry to my grave.

I do not view not telling something to be a lie. It is a passive omission and unless we are asked outright we have not lied by our silence. There can be valid reasons for non disclosure. While I think that a spouse should know of our crossdressing, non disclosure is not something that should cause us to feel ashamed or guilty. We should not wag our fingers at anyone for their decisions in this respect.

Nicely written post, Isha.

Veronica

Veronica,

That's certainly one way to justify, sorry, look at it.

Great post Isha! I have often read posts where SOs say they were 'lied to' when their CD didn't disclose....they are upset because their SO didn't trust them. Someone else also said on another thread that (to paraphrase) 'here we are all accepted, loved and supported but the REAL world doesn't work like that"....and speaking for my small corner of the world that is so true. For a man to disclose here that he cross dressed ....well, the poor devil had better have a one way ticket out of town as well because he would be made the butt of jokes, rejected and mocked. It would mean no job, no future. Sad but true.

Here is a true story that has nothing to do with CDing, but shares everything with it. I had a lover once who was part First Nations Cree. His name was Ian and he very visibly was part Cree, however, he told me his grandfather did not look Cree at all. In fact he 'passed' so well he was able to become an Anglican minister (unheard of for his race and for the time) and he married a 'white' woman. As Ian said to me....'now you have to remember this was back in the day when we Indians were killing whites and them us!" So he didn't tell her because he loved her so much he knew if he DID tell she would reject him. Finally after 8 children together and many years he thought "I love her SO much, I have to share this with her". So he did. His wife immediately hired a carpenter, partitioned the house in two. Ian's grandfather lived on one side of the house and she lived with the 8 children on the other. They spent the rest of their lives like that. Almost all of those children became either drug addicted or alcoholic or had other problems coping, one of whom was Ian's dad.

So, he didn't tell her because he loved her so much he was terrified of losing her
but then he did tell her because he loved her so much....and he lost her.

This story is not saying 'don't disclose'. His not disclosing and then disclosing were were not 'a lack of courage' or 'shameful', they were 'acts of love in both cases'. The lesson in this story at least for me is that loving someone seemed to be this man's only 'crime' and how tragic is that? When I stand before St. Peter or Allah or whomever, or I'm just aying there dying waiting to go on to my next big adventure....and I look back, I hope my only crime will that I loved someone.

I came out almost straight away, but it still took a long time to get to where I am today.

Maslow's Mum

That is a fascinating true story that you told about Ian.

However, you told one side of that story. What is the other side? About how his wife felt, her reasons for cordoning off the house, etc etc.

My point is that it's all well and good using a story as an analogy in order to make a point. But the point falls short if the WHOLE story isn't told.

Hi Jenni,

Firstly you will get no argument from me in that there is a breech of trust and this needs to be addressed. If the relationship is strong, it survives. If it is not, it won't.

You say you don't look down on those who come out late in the relationship yet you also state you have more respect of those (like you) who come out at the beginning. I am to assume we are not deserving of respect. You also throw the word lie around like a banner to paint those of us who had our reasons not to tell as bad people . . . my point of the post to begin with.

Why people choose to not disclose everything is for them to deal with. Nobody has the right to take the high ground and tell them they are wrong. I get it you and few like you are rarities and always do the right thing in life. Some of us are flawed but that does not make us bad people. I will ask you the poignant question do you disclose every little thing to your SO on a daily basis, I mean everything. If not then you are as guilty as you have painted us.

You are right, we don't live in a perfect/ideal world. If we did then this would not be an issue. There are aspects of personality and past employment I will never share with my wife as I don't think she would understand the things I had to do and to whom. Things that most could not fathom unless they have seen combat and even then you don't know until you are there.

The point I am making is that we all make decisions right or wrong. I am assuming you have made some poor judgement calls in your life . . . we all do. To tell me and others that we have somehow hurt those we love because we hid a secret that we ourselves could not come to grips with smacks of conceit and non understanding. You don't know me or any of the others any more than I can claim to know what you think and feel when you make bad decisions.

Isha

No of course not telling doesn't make a person bad or evil. I understand how hard it is to tell, I've been there myself although with a different issue.

There is a wonderful little book entitled, "Why Am I Afraid To Tell You Who I Am" by John Powell that, without being overly dramatic, saved my life many years ago.

This book brings home the reality that sharing who we are is much more for the benefit of the person who has a secret, than anyone else. The books description is, "Only when we face our fears can we learn to like ourselves and trust that others will accept us. This extraordinary book has changed countless lives."

Here's a preview:
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/sample/read/9780006281054


These are quotes from the book:

"I can only know that much of myself that I have had the courage to confide to you."

"I am afraid to tell you who I am, because if I tell you who I am, you may not like who I am, and it's all that I have."

"If I expose my nakedness as a person to you - Do not make me feel shame."

Isha, thank you for your thoughtful and sensible post. I often don't respond to posts that offend me because I feel that either I am reading in too much or I myself might be just as offensive. Your ability to stay on point and stay level headed is fantastic. You are a huge asset to this site and thus, a great benefit to many of us who struggle with these themes.

If you were to start out in life with, "boys don't cry", and move forward it is easy to see where it will go if you get anything less than macho when it comes to clothes. I remember once as a teen telling a friend that I liked soft fabrics and cashmere sweaters, BOOM what a mistake, it took a couple of weeks for that one to settle down. What if I had said that I liked to wear cami's and panties, OMG, I would hate to think of that outcome. It's that others will shame the other person, why, and dare I say get one up on that other person! Lets face it and internet has both good and bad, if you look in the wrong area it is easy to see why someone would get the impression that CD'ers are gays, or perverts. So, what can be done, we change the world one person at a time, and hopefully while we are doing it, we get a good responce. Our spouse is the first logical place to start, and only the "other half" will have any idea how that responce will go. So, some don't take the chance, maybe because they know what the outcome will be.

Well said, as usual, Isha. I think you said in one of your earliest posts that your wife wasn't upset about you lying to her, since you were really lying to yourself, as well. That's kind of the way I feel about it, too. Usually, we don't really know the extent of our desires when we're younger, anyway. Or don't want to admit it, even to ourselves.

Hi Isha

You shouldn't assume that we are not deserving of respect. In saying I had more respect for those who come out at the beginning, I didn't mean to imply that I had NO respect for those who don't. I understand completely the reasons why people don't come out, either at first, or not at all. I've been there myself. And genuinely, I regard myself as fortunate in that the time when I did come out right at the very start (or rather before the start) of my current relationship, I was accepted. In all honesty, when I first met my current partner, I was in "a moment" when I felt (or was made to feel) able to be completely truthful and open. For me, in this isolated moment, it was the right thing to do.

In my post to which you replied, I most certainly didn't "throw the word lie around". And I do not regard those who refrain from being open and honest about their cding as bad people. That is a misconception on your part. It's not that I feel people who don't come out in the beginning are being wrong, or being bad, but I do regard them as holding back a truth about themselves - a truth that would/could/does have a bearing upon the person who they want to be with. For with cding, it is a part of our lives that is important, and it is regarded as a significant part of who we actually are. I say that for several reasons - the most obvious one being that, in coming out as a cd, whether we like it or not, it does result in our partners viewing us in a different light. And sometimes that "different light" that our partners see us in is a light that they don't particularly like.

I also do not agree that not disclosing every little thing to an SO on a daily basis means that such a person is as guilty as you have perceived me to regard you as being. CDing isn't, nor has ever been, a little thing. There has been many times when I've not told my husband about something that has happened to me, and I'm sure that my husband could say the very same thing. But such things are usually insignificant, isolated incidents - incidents that in and of themselves merit no further consideration whatsoever. I would regard such things as trivial. Something I would never say in regards to someone who crossdresses. That is not trivial - it is significant. And hand on heart, I have never held anything back from my husband anything that I regard to be significant.

You're right though - we have all made poor judgement calls in our lives. All of us. Me. You. Everyone else. They are, by definition, "poor judgement calls". And by that definition, they are things in which we could have made a better choice. Me pointing that out therefore in my previous post to you - the post to which you replied - shouldn't result in you questioning me, or misinterpreting what it is that I'm actually saying. I will not shy away from the ideal whereby we should be totally honest with the most important person in our lives - our partner. For being totally honest is not a bad thing. You are now in a position whereby you can be totally honest about your cding with your partner. You are also fortunate that your partner is accepting of you. And that is a blessing. I regard it as a blessing that my partner is accepting of me. And I am thankful of that, every single day. And I think I am very fortunate in that respect. I am so glad that I told him the first moment I met him. I am so happy that he accepted me. If he hadn't, then I would never have had a relationship with him. If he hadn't accepted me, then he would have had the chance to walk away before becoming emotionally involved with me. Giving people that opportunity should never be frowned upon in my opinion.

I'm sorry that you think my view (about being honest and open) "smacks of conceit and non understanding". You couldn't be more wrong. My view isn't like that at all. My view is simply one of being open and true to ourselves and the people who matter to us. And I do not, nor ever will, regard that as a bad thing. My view, which I may add took a long time in coming to terms with myself, is that if I am to give my heart to someone, and they are to give their heart to me, then the very least they deserve is for me to become an open book to them. No secrets, no holding back. On either side.

Excellent posts by Isha, by Jenni taking another side and by many others as long as those posts stayed on point. In fact
a good case may be had for supporting either side. It did go astray when trying to define "good" lies from lies that make one "Bad", or that all lies must be "bad" whether any damage was done by the act or not --- actually the "degree" that one lied or didn't disclose has little bearing on Isha's thread. Yes, some members will stand by the position that marriage, or any other relationship, is built on a bedrock of trust so that by not being initially forthcoming that trust was broken and will forever remain so --- I'll accept that as one position but only as a valid one BASED upon a set of circumstances that, unfortunately, varies as greatly as the human mind is different in all 7 billion of us here on earth. In conclusion every position is the "right" one based upon the circumstances that brought one to that conclusion.
Do have to add another consideration that I found when once having a friendly argument with a famous Archbishop
--- he was very persuasive except for his "sins of omission". How seriously do those sins of omission affect ourselves and others? Yep, it depends ---.
Julie

Hiding something from a partner doesn't make you a bad person. But as CDing grows in importance in your life, the likeliness of you being able to keep the secret goes down. At that point, your best bet, from a pragmatic perspective, is to manage the disclosure so that your wife feels that you only discovered this facet of your personality recently, and you've been as honest as you could be with her.

And still, if you're going to want to spend an increasing amount of your time CDing, you have to be prepared for her to find that unappealing. Most women do. That's why it's also important to think about what the two of you have in common, what you still share as common interests, and work on keeping those ties strong. That way she'll have a good answer for herself, if she ever wonders why she is in this relationship. You don't want her to think: "access to health insurance, I guess that's the only reason I'm still in this relationship."

I know it isn't popular to suggest that men and women think differently, but, I think there is a major difference in the way men and women think regarding 'hiding' something. To me, not telling when you are certain that telling would destroy your marriage seems like the perfectly logical, and morally correct, action. To my wife, this kind of action is a violation of trust that would make it incredibly difficult for her to trust in the future - what else is being hidden? I have never hidden my dressing from my wife; we met online in a forum and she knew me as Deedee(tv) before she knew my male name, so this has nothing to do with crossdressing - but instead, this is a basic difference in the way we think.

Deedee(tv)

Each persons situation, and circumstances are a bit different. There is a time for every purpose under heaven. A time to speak, and a time not to speak. In some relationships, it is wisest, to no disclose. In others, disclosing would be wisest.