Lesbians/ TG people...

Right...
It seems to me that most TG people (male and female) fancy women. I fancy men. But... That's not it. Actually I was puzzling over the reason for this, if anyone cares to offer their explanation.

My real puzzling thing I've been thinking about is that lesbians, who fancy women, and female TGs who fancy men seem to dress the same. It's odd, because well... I don't know really what I'm trying to say. Em... There's a big blur there. It just seems that there is a big blur between all female alternative type people. The dress, the look, generally the way they act, etc.
Trying to pass as a bloke, I really want to look like a feminine looking man. Which is weird, because most FTM want to look more like just guys.
I want to look like David Bowie, or some of the glam rock/ hair metal bands. Which is tough for me, because while I am now able to pass, if I have any single bit of 'feminine' anything (long hair, shiny earrings, eyeliner, any of that heavy metal stuff) I'm automatically GIRL. And it pisses me off. Like, I want to be a boy transvestite. I think I would be.

Here's my theory: If I had been born a male, I would still be a transvestite. I don't necessarily know whether I would fancy men or women, but I definitely think I'd be TV. Anybody have an opinions or anything to add to this incredibly confusing spiel I've just spat all over the computer screen? Or am I just a mad fool with no idea of what I'm talking about?

--Eddie

That's quite something to be faced with. I think the only way you'll ever really pass as a guy tryin' to be feminine is to go on T and then dress feminine or david bowie like. That's really the best idea I can come up with. It sounds like you know exactly what you want, all you have to do is work towards gettin' there. You know what you have to do.

If you want to remain a girl dressed as a male tryin' to pass off as a feminine lookin' guy...best of luck to you. It's definitely goin' to be one hard task. I don't have much to offer when it comes to that bein' I want to look like a manly man with a gal on his arm.

:)
Thanks... I would take T, but as I've said before, my concerns are toward my voice. Plus I don't want to be ridiculously hairy. Maybe just some facial hair. But you can't pick and choose.
I'll probably have a reduction (complete elimination) but I do want to have kids so I'll have to wait until I've had them, otherwise it would be worthless.
But then I could run around without a shirt and nobody would be the wiser. No shirt and eyeliner= boy transvestite, which is the area I'm going for.

Ahh yes, the singing. I forgot about that. But can't you take like voice lessons if it comes down to that? I guess it's goin' to come down to compromising on what you want more. Ridding yourself of boobs will help indeed. You still have awhile to make up your mind on that stuff. I mean you don't want to rush anything.

Sideburns,

I for one would love to be the gal on your arm ;)

HAH well hot damn. My arm is pretty damn comfy. So yeah..go ahead and make your way on it, darlin.

Yes...
I do think it is interesting that many male CD/ TVs who do fancy women dress so beautifully. Like femme lesbians, I suppose. But it also seems that they want to date beautiful women. So maybe they should dress more butch? It kind of seems to be opposite than what you would think it would be.
Now, Eddie Izzard, on the other hand, dresses kind of in- between. As there's no way he could actually pass for a woman without major surgery (and even then, because of his build, it would be iffy), he no longer tries to. He's more into the PVC trousers and t- shirts, or leather skirt and corset. Something a bit more rough. But his blokey side is very classy: nice suits, shirts with French cuffs, crisp jeans, nicely- shined dress shoes. This is how I would think most straight TVs would dress, but that isn't the case. He's taking on a more practical view, I guess.
If you can pass as a woman, and a beautiful one at that, and that's the look you want to go for, then I suppose go for it. It all depends on what works for each person.
I think if you can't pass, you shouldn't probably try to. Eddie makes no effort to look like a woman, because he really can't. He still expresses his feminine side through clothes bought at womens' shops (he doesn't call them womens clothes, he calls them his clothes, because he bought them) and makeup. But he is still expressing it. He has breasts (not implants, he says they're 'im's but they're not planted') and does wear them occasionally. He's much more a butch than he is femme.
And he doesn't change when he's 'dressed'. He remains Eddie. Still the channel- hopping, gadget- loving, football- playing, tree- climbing bloke in a dress he has always been.
I would like to study this more. It's quite an interesting phenomena.


Now as for how I dress... I dress for success. I'm only 18, but I dress well. The same crisp black jeans, nice suits, shirts with cufflinks, shined shoes, etc. (and I did already own mostly this type of thing before I'd ever heard of Eddie, so I'm not emulating. It's just a coincidence we like the same garb).
Or sometimes I'll wear a pair of jeans that are torn completely to shreds, ratty sneakers, and a ripped t- shirt.
all depends on my mood. It's almost like there are two sides to my wardrobe. One, the classy, refined look. The other, the more punky (though I hate punk), rough look. And, of course there is some in- between stuff.
But I'm a rocker. I suppose my dress is somewhere in between Bowie/ Queen (spandex and leather), Malmsteen (Victorian/ Rennaisance), the Sex Pistols (second- hand) and Elton Jphn, perhaps (nice suits, but no weird glasses).
I'm a unique person, and perhaps that gets me into trouble when really wanting to go blokey. But I won't change my style. I'm not into being something I'm not. That sounds contradictory as I'm not a boy, technically. But in my mind, I feel I am. This is me.




My God, that turned out beastly long. Well... Hope it made sense or had something to do with the original topic at any rate.

Abraxas,

I am no expert, so the following are just my humble thoughts, but if they help, then all well and good.

In crossdressing (or transvestism, transgenderism, or whatever term one is comfortable with), you have people adopting the external appearances of the opposite sex. They therefore look the same (men dressed as women; women dressed as men), but this just happens to be the common ground on a number of very different intersecting paths (mind-sets). Confusion arises because we are subconsciously categorising people by what they look like, not by who they actually are.

I am a male-to-female crossdresser who adores the feminine world. I love women, and I want to intimately share in femininity with women, more so than I could in a vanilla relationship. I am also a heterosexual male: I have no interest in men. When crossdressed, I am still attracted to women, not men. In this sense, I could perhaps be thought of as a heterosexual-male to female-lesbian :)

The above description, of course, is for me. Many will identify themselves with that description; many will not. Some male-to-female crossdressers (whether just dressing, undergoing SRS, or whatever) consider themsleves to really be of the female gender, and to have sex with a male is not seen by them as being a homosexual act, rather a way of exploring and expressing their femininity. Others, equally considering themselves to be of the female gender, could never have sex with a man, and see themselves as lesbians. Some male-to-female crossdressers crossdress, not because they particularly have affinity for women or femininty, but because they are homosexual, and dressing as a woman is their way of accepting their homesexual interest in men. Women, of course, can more-or-less dress as either gender in today's western societies and, in most cases, this is not seen as having any bearing on that woman's sexual orientation. With men, the situation is totally reversed: so much for 'equality'.

I could give more examples, but I could never cover -- or even think -- of all the reasons why men dress as a women and women dress as men, but I hope the above gives you some ideas as to why some crossdressers prefer to be with men and others prefer to be with women, irrespective of their own sex and their dressed appearance. By the way, I apologise for apparently ignoring the female-to-male crossdresser in my examples, but I can assure you that they are very much in my mind: I tried making my above examples apply to either sex, but the phraseology became so convoluted and confusing, I decided to stick with male-to-female crossdressers, as I am one.

Ultimately, what you are expressing, as they say in Yorkshire, England, is that, "There's nowt so queer as folk".

Suzy

Thanks, gals. It's a lot to think about.
I suppose it's just a confusing area, it always will be, and there's nothing any of us can do to try to explain it.
I do still want to look like a boy transvestite, though. That's the one thing that's harder than passing; wearing makeup and silk shirts and still looking like a bloke! I just wanna be Bowie!

Hi All,

I've lost the plot after reading all this. I thought I was a pre-op (M2F) lesbian transexual, but I don't know if I'm knew where I was (in sexual orientation), but I haven't got a clue now.

I'm (by birth) male and I am going down the road of SRS, but my sexual interests lie 110% in women. There is no way I am remotely attracted to any man.

Can anyone clarify my sexuality please?

Rachel

I agree with Julie.
Although if you require a label, I'd say lesbian. *shrugs*

While I am a female trapped in a male body, I also feel like a male trapped in a female's soul.

I stared having these feelings when I was 5. I thought that they would be things that passed. I joined the Marines since they built men. Didn't work....still felt female...but then again, the Marines have women Marines. The only issue was they wouldn't let me in. I got married and had 3 lovely children. I thought that family responsibility would cure me. Didn't work. Instead, I trapped myself in the cape of a father image.

I am very slowly starting to transition. My wife doesn't know nor does she like the fact that I love to dress who I am. Fortunately, I travel extensively on business and Rachel always comes along. I will make the transition either after my wife passes or I pass, which ever comes first.

I know that my true being is feminine. Yes, I have nice clothes but I also have casual clothes. Why do so many male to female dressers wear more feminine clothes - because we wear what women wear casually every day. I dress according to my activity.

My preference would clearly be lesbian. I did, however, discover that I can mentally disassociate myself and become female in an intimate setting with another male to female dresser.

So....the eloquence of the other notes apply to me but I have my own nuiance.

I find associating with lesbians to be much more fun and they [despite the stereo typing] don't all "spit" on us non-female females. I just wish I could find more with whom to establish a closer relationship. I am pliable...if they want me to look ultra
chic, I would dress that way. If they wanted me to be more "rough", I would dress that way. I guess I should have chosen the name "chamelion" instead of Rachel.

Thanks for the opportunity to enter the dialogue.

Hugs :)

This debate will probably never end. But it seems that sex, not gender, defines one's sexuality. For example, most lesbians take offense at the notion that anyone but a GG or a post-op TS can be lesbian. Worse, the term "male lesbian" has been co-opted by faux "feminist" guys (yes, you, Alda!) who are using it as a novel way to get laid.

So, as a vanilla MtF TG CD, I prefer women but that makes me straight, not lesbian. Just to confuse matters further, some CDs are TG and some aren't.

There's an unfortunate pecking order in the GLBT world - some gays and lesbians look down on bis who look down on TSs who look down on other flavors of TG. Fortunately, only some of them. I think it's mostly political. Gay men fought on the front lines to gain legal recognition and social standing, and some think that the rest of us are trying to ride in on their coattails. And so on.

Eddie...

Not sure this theory works for CD men but.....,

A butch lesbian would want to show she is butch by adopting male attributes, but NOT want to be mistaken for a man. She is sexually attracted to women, and is looking for someone else who is sexually attracted to women. So if she pushes the gender boundary too far, she just becomes a 'guy' and that's not the intention.

Similarly, a very fem gay guy might signal that he is on the fem side by adopting SOME female attributes , mannerisms, camp gestures etc, but wouldn't want to be mistaken for a woman, as that is not the intention. He's after a guy that LIKES GUYS!

(A straight crossdresser, on the other hand, is emulating all the sex signals of a pretty woman, for FUN! Not to attract a woman.)

[This is hellishly complicated isn't it?!)

Amelie you are unique so I don't expect you to fit in here, but maybe the dressing down element does apply a little as you are looking for a guy that likes guys rather than someone who wants a pretend female.


Did that make sense...I don't know...My head hurts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Abraxas

:)
Thanks... I would take T, but as I've said before, my concerns are toward my voice. Plus I don't want to be ridiculously hairy. Maybe just some facial hair. But you can't pick and choose.
I'll probably have a reduction (complete elimination) but I do want to have kids so I'll have to wait until I've had them, otherwise it would be worthless.
But then I could run around without a shirt and nobody would be the wiser. No shirt and eyeliner= boy transvestite, which is the area I'm going for.

---

Sheesh! I know what you mean!!! I want to pass as a pretty gay guy, kinda like gackt (i love him to death!! Japanese singer, but he's not gay. I think he's bi.) But it's REALLY hard, considering I have a girly voice. *cries* Actually, im going to get breast reduction (full one) once I move out so that way I don't have to face getting kicked out when im not even ready to leave! (I want to go swimming w/o a shirt on!) I've also heard about voice box surgery for men. I wonder if they can do it for women too (to get a deeper voice.)?

Having kids? Nah, not interested. Im not really good w/ little children, so i'd probably make a bad parent. Maybe i'll change my tune once I get into my late twenties or something.