I'm not androgynous enough?

I was chatting with this one lesbian girl that I met the other day and she was talking about how she was non-gender binary and hated it when people were like 'You're not non-binary enough'.

I was like 'Yeah, I can understand that. That's why I don't tell many people that I'm androgynous.'

When given a skeptical look (I was wearing a tank top and capris) and asked for a definition of androgynous as well as the age I started feeling that way, I told her that I didn't believe I was male or female, that I thought of myself as just being human and able to dress, act, and 'be' however I wanted and that I'd felt that way my whole life.

She then proceeded to tell me exactly what her and her friends thought androgyny was and that I didn't fit it, arguing that in order to be androgynous I had to be super-skinny, bind all the time, have 'edgier' hair, wear certain types of clothes, act a certain way...the list went on!

When she finished, I smiled and said, 'So, basically, I'm not androgynous enough?' Then, she got really mad and left...

Why is it that people get so upset when you don't fit into their labels? I mean, does it really matter to her if I say I'm androgynous while dressing like a woman? Does that make it any less true than when I dress like a man?

Do not allow anyone to tell you who you are, how you should act or how you should dress. Be yourself! If people do not like it, they can go on their way. I assure you, there is someone out there that will love you just as you are. Besides, I love you for just being you. ;)

Thanks Jorja, I love you too, sweetie! :) I'm not really mad about it or anything, just amazed that someone would be that judgmental about something that isn't even about them. It also made me realize that labels can lock you into a stereotype, which seems a tad bit redundant in the LGBT community.

Welcome to the world of being TG. You are not this or that enough.
You see Len, FTM and MTF pretty much go through most of the same crap. Granted our ultimate goals are opposite but along the way there is the coming out, the occasional ridicule, other TG saying you are not trans enough, etc.

Of course other things to look forward to -

"What the hell is that?"

"Oh so you are transgender? I used to work with this one TG but in his case, you could never tell he used to be a woman (kind of like when you do anything and the one-up club likes to discredit your progress. )" Of course us MTF get the "I knew this one TS but with her you could never tell it was a man".

Not sure if this is common for the FTM but sometimes we get MTF who think they are more passable than what they are and want to discredit the rest of us lowly trannies cause we are not serious/passable/etc enough. Seeking validation within the GLBT community is the worst.

Labels - yeah those are good for canned goods. Like ravioli!

The point you need to get is where you just mingle in everyday society. People might know you are trans but are not going to sit there and discredit (well, some). No, instead you are just another human being trying to make your way in the world. You will actually get a lot more respect in the vanilla world. No one is going to hold you to a label, what surgeries you had, your DNA, etc. I know this cause I live this full time yet I am not totally passable. Yet no one treats me any different. You too will get there.

The only thing I might say is that when you go full time in your chosen gender, the world tends to hold you mostly to the standards of that gender.

FERGOT - Isn't it funny how that at SOME point in all our lives, people want to tell us we are not (whatever gender) enough? Young men are taught how to be "real" men, trans go thru this from their peers, and I assume women went through it at some point.

Nicole and Jorja - you two hit it on spot. Len, and everyone else, just be yourself, and dress how you wish, and screw what the fashion police say. Your real friends will like you just as you are :)

hey Len,

Like everyone else said just be yourself. Don't worry about labels.

People like to put things, including people, in a neat little package Len. Too bad folks like us shatter that image. Oh well, you win some you lose some. ;):battingeyelashes:

Pffft. Dont worry about that silly girl, Len. Be yourself. :cool:

...BTW, Len, Im glad you still choose to come hang out with us, whether youre a transguy in the States, or a lesbian in Narnia, or whoever / wherever you are. :hugs:

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Originally Posted by LenGray

She then proceeded to tell me exactly what her and her friends thought androgyny was and that I didn't fit it, arguing that in order to be androgynous I had to be super-skinny, bind all the time, have 'edgier' hair, wear certain types of clothes, act a certain way...the list went on!

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I take it that Androgynous means not dressing like the stereotypical male or female. I suppose you could say that unisex clothes sold in stores like Hot Topic (well, a lot of their clothes but not all of them), are androgynous since they can be worn by both men and women. Even blue jeans are androgynous as long as they don't have decorative details on them. So are white Tshirts. lol

We can't help the way we look, so this shouldn't affect other people's determination as to whether or not we are androgynous. I have an acquaintance who like you, started out believing that ze was FtM but after several years decided ze didn't want to leave the lesbian community. My acquaintance uses gender neutral pronouns (hir, ze) and uses the initials of hir first and middle names as a regular first name. Hir partner however, also previously in the FtM camp, doesn't mind using the feminine pronouns since she finds the gender neutral pronouns hard to get around although she does use a shortened version of her name that is also a guy's name. Needless to say that both these individuals have opted to not modify their bodies. It's hard to get people to remember to use the gender neutral pronouns though, and these individuals believe that what matters most is how they see themselves - which is a person born in a female body who is decidedly not feminine in any way, shape or form. I think that the second partner (the one who uses "she" and a male name) buys all her clothes in the men's department and she definitely wears a male haircut. While her partner, the gender-neutral pronoun person, does not have a male haircut and just gets really plain clothes (jeans, Tshirts) from both women's and men's departments.

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Originally Posted by LenGray

Why is it that people get so upset when you don't fit into their labels? I mean, does it really matter to her if I say I'm androgynous while dressing like a woman? Does that make it any less true than when I dress like a man?

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Maybe your friend is a little on the naive side and she really hasn't had a lot of exposure to the tons of different ways there are to think of the self and to present, that are outside of the gender binary?

Gosh. Not only do we have male/female gender stereotypes in terms of clothing, now according to this girl we also have a stereotypical way that androgynous people should look and dress? lol

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Originally Posted by Nicole Erin

sometimes we get MTF who think they are more passable than what they are and want to discredit the rest of us lowly trannies cause we are not serious/passable/etc enough.

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I encountered one MTF who told me those who ask if they're passable are the ones who aren't. They then proceeded to ask me if I knew they were trans before they made themselves known to me, which is no different than asking if they passed surely?!? They were rather put out when I said yes and didn't believe me, despite my pointing them out to my partner minutes beforehand.

So on the basis of my own experience, I'd say yes, there very much are some who seek to discredit others for no other reason than to elevate themselves in some way. Rather sad really...

Thanks for the replies everyone!

Nicole: Yes, it seems like it's an ongoing thing *rolls eyes* Haha, and yes, women go through the same thing, particularly tomboys. 'You don't walk/talk like a woman.' It's kinda sad though, regardless of what identity you come from.

Michelle and Dana: Thanks :)

Kate: Haha, I guess so ^_^ She seemed very involved in labels lol

Andy: Of course I'm still here! You guys and gals are awesome, so I won't be going anywhere if I can help it :) Besides, even though I've discovered I'm not a transguy, it doesn't mean I'm not still a bit swishy when it comes to gender ;)

ReineD: I think that androgyny has come to be equated in the LGBT community with fashion stereotypes of the term. Or at least, that's all I can figure from doing a Google search lol For me, its having the ability to dress, act, and behave however I feel like without acknowledging a particular gender role, whether it's wearing a dress and heels, a suit, or a combination of men and women's clothing. I do think she was naïve but I suspect her opinion came from excessive exposure to those labels :) Ironically, by the end of the conversation, she tried to claim I was the judgmental one because I didn't believe people fit into labels lol

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Originally Posted by LenGray

Besides, even though I've discovered I'm not a transguy, it doesn't mean I'm not still a bit swishy when it comes to gender ;)

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I understand. I consider myself kind of both and no gender... but leaning toward the masculine, of course.

"androgynous"

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an·drog·y·nous adjective \an-ˈdrä-jə-nəs\
: having both male and female characteristics or qualities

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That is you and us, hon. Don't let someone else define that for you.

- MM