What a jerk

Hi all
What an experience...
On Saturday my wife and I went to a local mall to get some birthday presents for my youngest daughter and some clothes for my eldest. It was a great opportunity for us to have some time together (without kids) and for me to have some ‘Daniella time’ as well. So we sent the kids off to their grandparents for the afternoon and we went shopping. What an eventful trip it turned out to be.

We arrived at the mall just after 12 and decided to have a light lunch first. On the way to the restaurant we noticed a strange smell in the air. we then saw the very upmarket jewelry store was filled with a strange smokey atmosphere and strong very bright lights were flashing in the store. It was filled with serious looking men in dark suits. We were convinced that there had been a robbery. On arriving at the restaurant my wife asked about events at the store. We were told, ‘no, there is nothing wrong, that is all very normal’. Yeah right! Within half an hour the smoke was cleared, the ominous looking men in dark suits had left and the store was open for business.

We had a lovely meal. Just as we were finishing a couple came in and sat at the table next to us. They were fashionably dressed, but something just seemed ‘odd’. I looked a bit closer. The female half of the couple was very ‘girly’ but had quite big features with quite wide shoulders. She seemed to be wearing clip on earrings (I was looking at her from a slight angle and she mostly had he back to me). She was, I thought, slightly over dressed for lunch at the mall (but then who am I to talk): high heels, very smart skirt, and her hair was a little unkempt, almost like she was not very expert at doing pony tails. In fact, it reminded me of the way my daughter’s hair looks when I do her pony tail for her in the mornings. Her hair was also a little high at the top, suggesting a wig, maybe? None of this on its own said anything, but taken together it made me wonder. I tried not to stare or say too much as I didn’t want them to feel uncomfortable.

After lunch we started ambling around on our way to do the shopping. We stopped in at a department store as I wanted to show my wife a handbag I had seen a few weeks before. As we were walking through the store someone stopped me and said: ‘Don’t I know you?’ I panicked! Who was this? Where did I know her from? Who was she? Was she talking about boy me or girl me? Had I just been outed? She then said, ‘from Facebook…’ relief. I looked at her. It was Sharon! Another transgender/crossdresser friend from Facebook. We had chatted on Facebook before, but never met in real life. It was so nice of her to come and say hello. It certainly took some guts, what if she was wrong? Then again the chances of her being right were pretty good. We chatted for a bit. I would have loved to ask her to join us for a drink or something, but as we were on a bit of a deadline and I was still recovering my composure I didn’t. Maybe next time!

We carried on doing our thing and looked for clothes for my eldest daughter. We stopped in at another clothing store and we were walking through the women’s section when I noticed an older man, rather shabbily dressed wondering around rather aimlessly. I thought he must have been waiting for his wife. A really pretty red bra with black lace in the lingerie section caught my eye and I went to look at it. They did not have my size so I left. As I was leaving the lingerie section I noticed the man again and then I saw it! He had a green shopping bag partially covering his groin, it looked a very unnatural position and a rather uncomfortable way of carrying the bag. With his one hand he was stroking the women’s clothes and his other hand was down the front of his shorts and he was furiously tugging away at himself. What a jerk!

My mind started racing. I was deeply offended by this activity. Fortunately my wife didn’t notice because she would have been very upset. It was clearly sexually aggressive and inappropriate. If I child had seen him s/he would certainly have been negatively impacted. I didn’t know what to do. On one hand he wasn’t (yet) being very aggressive and touching anyone else, only the clothes. Should I do anything? I thought of calling security, but then I thought about my attire. I was wearing a floral skirt, false breasts, a wig, make up etc. Would they believe me? Who was more likely to be arrested for being a pervert? Even if I was believed and not myself found to be ‘suspicious’ I would have to explain who I was (providing proof of identity: awkward), why I was there etc and if it ever came to court I would have to give evidence. I could just see a defence lawyer having a lot of fun with me and my character. So I chickened out. We just left with a sense of outrage.

A friend from Facebook later suggested I could have phoned the store and told them (anonymously) what was going on. That would have been a great idea but I just didn’t think of it at the time. I was really upset. Especially in light of my experience at a different mall a few weeks ago where a grandfather clearly felt threatened by me and pulled his grandkids as far away from me as possible. People behaving like this are a serious problem. It makes all of us look suspicious and ‘dirty men’. Like I say, I acknowledge he wasn’t actually harming anyone but I do not think this sort of behaviour should be tolerated. I am all for tolerance provided your behaviour does not negatively impact on others, especially the vulnerable members of society. Next time (let’s hope there isn’t a next time) I will think to use my mobile phone.

Later I wondered if he had clocked me? Maybe I had provoked this action? Was I to blame in someway? I really hope not. Anyway this sadly ruined an otherwise lovely day out and about. Nonetheless, no crowd with pitchforks and torches gathered to chase me down the street. We were just two women out for lunch and a spot of shopping. We happened to run into a friend and sadly experienced some of the sexual aggression (bullying) women all around the world deal with every day. This one (slightly) negative experience will not deter me from expressing myself. A luta continua!

the man was indecent, it's a call to the cops, surely?
i don't know how i'd act meeting another CD in a public place, perhaps it takes time to become natural.

In theory you are right Pamela... In practice it can be kind of different. Let's just say I am getting a very real idea of why so many sexual assaults don't get reported. And yes in the cold light of day I absolutely should have reported it, but I had so many other considerations going through my head. In retrospect I should have just called the store security anonymously on my mobile, but at the time I just didn't think of that... And my main priority was to get my wife and I away from the possible danger. What if someone else saw him and called it in BUT saw me as well, clocked me, and lumped me and him together like we were working together or something? I just wanted to get away... Before the pitchforks and torches arrived :-(

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Originally Posted by Danitgirl1

...an older man, rather shabbily dressed wondering around rather aimlessly. If (a) child had seen him s/he would certainly have been negatively impacted. People behaving like this are a serious problem. It makes all of us look suspicious and ‘dirty men’. Later I wondered if he had clocked me? Maybe I had provoked this action? Was I to blame in someway? ...sadly experienced some of the sexual aggression (bullying) women all around the world deal with every day.

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Interesting story Dani, but I seriously question some of your thinking.

Why would some old guy with his hand down his pants 'negatively impact' a child? A child wouldn't have a clue what he was doing, and if s/he even noticed, they'd just figure he had an itch. It's just life- if we tried to prevent any and every unusual experience happening to our children, how would they ever learn anything? And no, I do not condone his behaviour.

Why does his behaviour 'make all of us look (like) suspicious and 'dirty men'? It's as if you associate yourself with him in some way, presumably because you were crossdressed. Or do you mean he was giving all men a bad rep? either way it's a strange way to view him.

How were his actions 'bullying women all around the world'? I've seen an elderly bag lady expose her breasts in public- was she bullying men the world over?

The world is full of weird people- is it really necessary to overdramatise such a minor incident?

I welcome retorts from the PC crowd...

Hmm thanks for the thoughts Nikki.
I am just telling you all how I felt about it. I was really upset by it.
In South Africa we (TG people) fear using toilets because if in the ladies' room we may get accused of being a pervert (friends of mine have told me that they have been assaulted by men who were called by their wives/girlfriends) and in the men's room, well you stand out and again will probably get assaulted for being a pervert. South Africa has a very progressive constitution that protects us well, but society is a lot less progressive (for example many think homosexuality SHOULD be a crime)... I strongly suspect that A LOT of my fellow citizens would not distinguish between a transgendered person out shopping in a skirt and the guy wanking in the women's section, ESPECIALLY if a child is even tangentially involved. We (the broader tg community) will be tarred with the same brush (I fear). Any non conforming behaviour would be looked at very oddly, ESPECIALLY if one of us happened to be in the same vicinity.

It did not look like he was scratching... It was very clearly more than that and children are NOT stupid. And who knows what he would have done had he seen a child seeing him? He could have stopped, carried on, whipped it out, abducted the child, silenced the child, run away... Who knows. This is clearly not 'normal' behaviour from a well adjusted human being. He is asserting his sexuality in an inappropriate place I have no rational basis for being able to say what he would do.
Note: I have NO PROBLEM with someone masturbating to the feel of women's clothes.It is the WHERE that I object to... In private cool, at a club where such things are expected, cool. Even in an adult store would be more acceptable (although a grey area I think), but in an ordinary clothing store? No. Sorry.

I think women around the world are bullied and sexually harassed and assaulted on a daily basis. His actions were just another example of men doing things that they think are ok to do (why else do them) but are not in fact ok. They are offensive and scary. I was scared.
A women bearing her breasts (even aggressively) is fundamentally different. Firstly it is seldom an overt sex act and even if it is, in the main, men do not walk down a dark street fearing that they may be raped by a women. In South Africa, at least (and I suspect in MANY parts of the world), this women feel that being raped by a man is very real threat. The situation is perpetuated by sexual aggression of this sort.

I found the thought processes and emotions I experienced illuminating. Many years ago, I could not understand why someone I know did not 'throw the book' at a colleague who sexually assaulted her. I did not understand why her colleagues didn't take united action against him when they all realised he had groped them all. I now have an idea of what it is like. Just an idea, not full knowledge. It is REALLY scary. You don't think 'straight' you worry more about what more could happen than what has happened etc.
So no, he is not himself bullying all women (of course not) but his mindset, his actions etc are what perpetuates the bullying of women all around the world...

Thank you for pointing out that I 'overdramatised' this. Of course you were there so you know what it was like...

While we all can agree that masturbating in public is highly inappropriate (and adult stores aren't a 'grey area', I don't know where you got that idea), I do hope you notice the big fat irony of a cross-dresser calling this public 'jerk' a pervert, a potential sex offender, or a bully to all the women in the world. You already alluded to the fact that many other people might think the same things of public cross-dressers, but as you're probably well aware, the chance of us actually kidnapping kids, raping women in toilets, et cetera, actually isn't really high and I expect the same kind of chances for the person in question. It actually is the same kind of 'reasoning' that gets us 'ladies' in trouble when we visit public places and I thought we, of all people, should have known better.

Again, this guy shouldn't be masturbating in public, but it doesn't make him a rapist or child molester. Whether or not it offends you is something only you can assess.

Hi Zylia

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Originally Posted by Zylia

While we all can agree that masturbating in public is highly inappropriate (and adult stores aren't a 'grey area', I don't know where you got that idea)

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I am told that some adult stores have booths (presumably for sexual activity, whether singular or collective), that is what I was referring to. And for me it is a grey area as such a booth is a public space, even if it can be closed off. Kind of like a public toilet is closed off from the rest of the world, but that doesn't make it private property. Perhaps the adult store visitor can expect some sexual activity and should therefore not be surprised by people masturbating in a booth or perhaps not... Hence my point that it is a grey area.

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Originally Posted by Zylia

I do hope you notice the big fat irony of a cross-dresser calling this public 'jerk' a pervert, a potential sex offender, or a bully to all the women in the world. You already alluded to the fact that many other people might think the same things of public cross-dressers

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Exactly that is the essence of my point. The (broad) TG community is a very 'broad church. We have everyone from people transitioning to another sex to fetishistic crossdressers amongst us. I accept and welcome all to our umbrella but I would have a big problem (as I am sure most people would have) with a fetishistic crossdresser walking down around the mall in full sissy regalia AND with their penis out giving it a good stroke. This would be inappropriate. I believe most fetishistic crossdressers would agree with me. I have no problem with what you do with your genitals as long as it is in private, or in an area designated for such activity (a club) and with consenting adults. I had no way of consenting to his masturbating in front of me, it was an act FORCED upon me, simple. If you behave in an inappropriate way you probably deserve the name. My problem is that this kind of behaviour lumps us all in the same boat as far as the public are concerned. I honestly think for most people (especially where I live) would not see much difference between a TG person and this person. His actions do us all a disservice and perpetuates the confusion and prejudice we all experience.

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Originally Posted by Zylia

as you're probably well aware, the chance of us actually kidnapping kids, raping women in toilets, et cetera, actually isn't really high

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Agreed and I actually experienced just this prejudice a few weeks ago. I was walking through a mall and I was clocked by a grandfather out with his grandkids. He said nothing but moved them as far out of my path as possible and moved between them and me. Fair enough he has every right to protect them from any perceived threat, real or not. The irony is that any child abuser will seek to look as unobtrusive as possible (I think) and is unlikely to draw attention to himself by donning a wig. But anyway I take no issue with the grandfather, I do take issue with the masturbator... I would argue that masturbating in public where you COULD be seen by a child id in fact a form of child abuse. How do we know that wasn't his intent? Mothers often shop with children. Again his actions make people suspicious of ALL non conforming people.

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Originally Posted by Zylia

It actually is the same kind of 'reasoning' that gets us 'ladies' in trouble when we visit public places and I thought we, of all people, should have known better.

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Maybe but if there were fewer of his sort around people would be less worried about our sort I suspect... I may be wrong of course.

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Originally Posted by Zylia

Again, this guy shouldn't be masturbating in public, but it doesn't make him a rapist or child molester. Whether or not it offends you is something only you can assess.

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Agreed he shouldn't be masturbating in public, and he is not definitely a rapist or anything else, but I do not know for sure what he is and I would rather err on the side of caution. How do we know what he is? He may simply be an old man suffering from dementia not aware that his acts are in anyway wrong or he could be a predaatory sex offender in the process of escalation.
As it turns out I did nothing. I had my doubts and fears and they overcame my courage to take action. Maybe this was a good thing, allowing a largely innocent to go free unharmed, maybe it is a bad thing as I may have let someone who would later turn out to be a rapist go free. I will (probably) never know.
Nonetheless I did not like what I saw, I doubt anyone here would. How to deal with it? Now that is the challenge.

Hi there Daniella, simply contacting a store sales associate and asking them to call the police or store security would be an appropriate response. Once you call their attention to it, they are a witness, and if you've no desire or compunction to serve as a witness, then start beating feet. Odds are if you were to relate your concern to a female associate, she would be offended by his actions as well, and would certainly want to protect other customers as well as their merchandise and reputation. I mean who wants to purchase clothing which may or may not be semen stained from some dirty old perv.

I'm not sure why there is this apparent hostility or apologist mentality towards your report. You were offended, what he was doing is against the law, and in my experience as a police investigator, his sort of public behavior can and does tend to escalate. He may very well already be a practicing pedo, or rapist, that may merely be one of many ways he gets his jollies. Or he may have recently progressed from simply be a peeping Tom. But it is documented progressive Behaviour, and is usually rooted in other psychosis rooted in aberrant sexual behaviours. The only irony which exists in this case is due to a narrow minded society heaping up into the same category as "the jerk." While he is an actual pervert, we are merely maligned and viewed as perverts. He has certainly earned that title. We should all speak out in such instances in order to create distance between us and those whom most of society wish to lump us in with. But we also have a social responsibility just as citiEns of this world to report things which we as a society have deemed illegal. While society doesn't always get it right, I.e. Laws against homosexuality, gay marriage or Crossdressing for instance; there are times such as this where society nails it. And his sort of Behaviour is disgusting and unwanted in any civilized society.

But depending on the jurisdiction, his actions can be seen as a sex crime which would require him to register as a sex offender, especially if a child were to observe his actions. Had he made any sort of physical contact, based on his actions and intent, many jurisdictions would take a dim view and charge him with sexual assault. Personnally, I'm aghast that any crossdressers would defend that man in any fashion.

Ever & Always,
A very saddened Caden Lane

I agree with you Danitgirl!, this would have bothered me also, a time and place for every thing, this was not the place or time for this action. Marshalynn

I was expecting a confrontation with someone from the title "what a jerk". Doesn't sound like your outing was all that bad to me.

Hi Ressie, I think Dani sort of personalized the experience when she began to wonder if perhaps he had been responding to her and ghe way she was dressed. That may in turn cause her to feel sort of victimized. Often, people who merely witness such Behaviour feel violated and victimized by it. It's not unusual for someone to have a great day, and one negative element to either emphasize or damage their entire day. For instance a verbal encounter with one negative person whe dressed can leave a taint on an entire day of dressing, or even make a dresser return to the safety of their home. That may stem from the way that people build things up in their mind. When it doesn't meet that expectation or need, it's no longer worth all the effort. Sort of a, "I shaved my legs for this ?!?" Kind of moment.

Ever & Always,
A very thoughtful Caden Lane

Hi All
Caden is spot on with a LOT (all?) of what she says... as always.
And Ressie, I wouldn't say my day was ruined, but it certainly took the gloss off of what was an otherwise perfect day.
Thanks for all the comment everyone. It is helping me process this and get some perspective.
Hugs
Daniella

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Originally Posted by Danitgirl1

In South Africa we (TG people) fear using toilets because if in the ladies' room we may get accused of being a pervert...

It did not look like he was scratching...and children are NOT stupid.

His actions were just another example of men doing things that they think are ok to do (why else do them) but are not in fact ok... Of course you were there so you know what it was like...

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I had no idea SA was that bad, thanks for the update Dani.

You said his hand was inside his pants- I never said children are stupid, but a small child would have no idea what was happening, and while a child of masturbating age would deduce it, if no nudity was involved I find it hard to see it resulting in trauma. I do not mean to trivialise his actions, I'm just putting them in perspective. These days many kids would gleefully have taken pictures and posted them on Facebook within seconds, or just said 'Yuk' and walked away. You're an adult, and you did the latter. I think your moral outrage is based on guilt for not having done something at the time- but I do get that your fear of being in some way associated with him contributed heavily to your decision.

Why must his actions be seen as symptomatic of 'men doing things that they think are ok'? The guy's an oddball, by any standards, and 99.99% of men would agree with that. Many would have attacked him on the spot.

And in fact your description, both of the event and your emotions at the time and later, was so clear and graphic that I feel I have a very good idea of what you witnessed.

Dani,
I suppose that the gut reaction of most of us would be to advise you that you should have reported him there and then, after all what had your attire to do with anything? But, I hear what you're saying regarding the difference between what the South African constitution says and people's real attitudes "on the ground" and your suspicion that you might have received a less than sympathetic hearing. You're not the first to have expressed similar concerns and you know your own country better than any of us do, so I think that getting yourself offside ASAP was probably a wise move.
However, as regards your crossdressing having any impact on this malefactor's conduct - any guy who would even consider wanking in public clearly doesn't require to be 'provoked' by spying a crossdresser! Don't beat yourself up, it had nothing to do with you!

P.S. I've just spied your photos in the other thread. You look fantastic, just another girl out shopping. If anyone had any issues with your appearance then they were clearly trying very hard to find something to object to / be offended by!

So the guy was playing a little "pocket pool" whilst shopping. My reaction would have been to ignore, very quickly turn my head, eyes, and try to very quickly erase said image from my mind. I do not really want to remember any description as possible of the guy, let alone his activity ("store security I observed a guy doing certain inappropriate things in his pants, he was a older male, wearing a green shirt, blue pants, brown shoes, around 6', medium build, grey hair, light complexion glasses, mustache, and I observed his right hand in his pocket doing, """ he was in the women's lingerie section, etc. ) to pass on to security, police, store staff etc.

First, let me say that I'm not trying to be critical, Daniella. Because your post contained so much drama it reminded me of certain CD/TS "friends". They tend to LIKE to confront folks and enjoy a bit of drama when they're out dressed.

I shy away from those individuals when I'm out dressed. I like my drama on the TV or big screen. NOT when I'm out dressed. Which is why going out to well lit vanilla venues dressed is something I avoid at all costs! Unless u r likely to pass? I have the greatest for any of u girls that r brave enuff to do this!

And, I'd be so self consious out in a mall the last thing I'd notice is someone doing something seriptitious!

I don't know how i would handle meeting another CD in public, I would talk to them but be nervous until i calmed down. If i saw a guy doing that in public i would of either told the person at the desk about it, or called the store as an anonymous caller and tell them about it. Your not a pervert for being dressed up. that guy is more of a pervert for doing that in a store, where children might come, then if they saw the guy they might ask their parents what he's doing (and the parent would have to tell them not to worry about the man.) that guy needs help in more way then one.