The elephant in MY room is starting to make some noise

Hi Sara Jessica,

Thank you for your reply. As I spend more time on this site, I learn more about the CDers and the different mindsets that exist regarding gender. One mindset that I have the most difficulty understanding is the CDer that when in male mode is "all male" presenting a masculine persona, and when dressed they convert to fem mode. It is like flipping a light switch. In my case, I'm a male that is always in fem mode and cannot really switch to another mode. For the majority of my life, I have tried to force myself into playing the Masculine role and the result was always the same - depression and more depression that didn't respond to anti-depressant medication. It was a path for me that would not have a good ending. I am clearly in the minority on crossdressers.com because I really don't want to pass or don't care about presenting as a woman. My ultimate goal is for society to accept feminine males in the same manner that it accepts Tomboys. Hopefully, one day this will happen, but it will not happen if the vast majority of us are closeted. I apologize to you and other members here because many times I attempt to push folks here to wear fem items in male mode in order to push the envelope so that society can see that we are normal people and not freaks. I thank you for enlightening me to the fact that you and the majority of the CDers on this site are quite different from me and my mindset. I cannot expect you and other folks here to push the envelope in male-mode because that is not what you are about. There are other folks here like Butterfly Bill and Sissy Stephanie that are very much like me and they are already out there pushing the envelope in male mode. The problem is that the "fem male" (like me) is in the minority of a minority. In other words, crossdressers are a minority in society, and the fem male is a very small minority of the crossdresser subset.

:hugs: Jamie

Jamie, I'm afraid I was rather harsh in my prior post. I apologize.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Jamie, I'm afraid I was rather harsh in my prior post. I apologize.

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Hi Reine,

Thank you, however there really is no need to apologize. I understand that folks on these forums will not always my desires and goals because they are very different from the goals and desires of the majority of Crossdressers. There are not a lot of folks on this site that have the same goals, however I'm very encouraged that I have found several members that share my ambitions and goals. I'm always very pleased when a straight-male celebrity is photographed wearing nail polish, a skirt, or carrying a purse, however, what is discouraging is that you don't see the average everyday male emulating the celebrities. Just think about how long it took earrings for men to become mainstream after celebrities and athletes started wearing them. The average male has an ego that is to frail and therefore they won't emulate the celebrity for fear of being ostracized from the herd. It is the herd mindset that dominates the male mind because as a society, we create this mindset in little boys immediately after they start walking and talking. Anyway, enough of my rambling.

I'm really glad to have you here on these forums because I respect your perspective and always look forward to your insightful posts and responses.

:hugs: Jamie

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

Are you wearing nail polish???

Holy s#*^, I thought. There's no way he can perceive anything, is there???

When I asked why he would say that, he replied that my nails have a pumpkin-y color to them.

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I think he has some sense of the elephant I think.

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Sigh. That's all I can do these days. I would come clean to him in a heartbeat if I had my wife's blessing to do so. At this point though, he just keeps missing that bullseye by smaller increments at every shot. It's only a matter of time before he nails it.

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He's "YOUR" friend, right? Shouldn't it be your choice to tell. I'm not saying that you shouldn't talk with your wife first, but I think the final decision on telling him should be yours.

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Originally Posted by Pexetta

Your friend has suspiciously fine discrimination in colour words for a man... :heehee:

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Originally Posted by kimdl93

I has the same thought....I mean, how often do you look at another mans feet anyway?

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Heh heh. You're thinking what I'm thinking.

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Originally Posted by Abbygirl

I think your post made me realize something about my "mods" as you put it.

None of those things by themselves are going to create an elephant. However, when I begin to look at the combined effect of long hair, pierced ears, necklace, polka dot cell phone cover, pink cigarette lighter, faint hint of girly shampoo/deodorant etc , I think for the first time it dawns on me that when the "mods" start adding up, the story begins to tell itself.

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That sounds familiar. I said something similar myself over at mHB a few years back, in fact I called the things like this "lite body mods"

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Originally Posted by Jamie001

Why not just admit that you like wearing nail polish like a lot of athletes, MMA Fighters, Race Car Drivers and other men have done lately? It is no different than when men first started wearing earrings. Google "men wearing nail polish" and you will see how many celebs and athletes are doing it.

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But we are not Fighters or Drivers, and a few celebrities does not a change in cultural behavior make.

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

Jamie, I cannot believe you aren't sick of me refuting this post of yours that you probably have posted about 1,145 times

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You're not the first, in fact I know Jamie and his "Fashion Freedom for Men" perspective from USENET

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What I'm talking about is the piling on of these changes and how others perceive them. You know, "walks like a duck...", or in this case, an elephant.

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Yep.

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Originally Posted by Jamie001

I am beginning to understand that there is a very significant difference between folks like myself including Butterfly Bill, and Sissy Stephanie that are just feminine guys that present as a guy but wear women's clothing and makeup and the Crossdresser that attempts to present as a woman.

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Yep, and in fact you're one of the few people here I don't consider "traditionally transgendered". Haven't seen BB post here in a while either.

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I am still not sure if I'm really a crossdresser because I just incorporate feminine items into my male presentation just as some women incorporate men's clothing into their normal female presentation.

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Technically you're a crossdresser, but your basic motivation isn't the same.

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I feel that there there may be a lot less stigma associated with male that incorporates feminine items into a male presentation than a Crossdresser that attempts to appear and pass as woman.

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I totally disagree with you there, and in fact I've seen the opposite to be true. That the "gender bender crowd" bothers people more than traditional crossdresers do. They understand crossdressers as wanting to be like women at least part of the time, so dressing like women makes sense for someone who wants to be like them some of the time.

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In fact, straight males that wear nail polish, skirts, and other feminine attire have been in the new quite a lot lately.

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Still doesn't mean it's common, or that "ordinary" men are doing it.

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As for "blazing my trail" I believe that my trail can be summed-up as "Fashion Freedom for Men"

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Been a while since I saw that phrase. :-)

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The road is paved by men that are willing to incorporate feminine items into their otherwise male appearance and to wear those items openly.

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But most men have no interest in doing so.

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I believe that is the only way the crossdressing with ever be accepted by the general public.

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I disagree with that sentiment.

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

The easiest way for me to describe my POV is that I'm all good with the gender binary society we live in, I was simply drafted to the wrong team.

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That phrasing describes me as well.

And You admit that you got drafted in the wrong team! No more middle path terminology for you, Missy, you're a non-transitioning transsexual...at the moment. And I'm only partly kidding on that you know.

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Your angle is different from that of a CD'er who's might be different from a "middle-pather" (whether that MP self-identifies as CD or TS) which of course is much different from that of the transitioning TS, and so on.

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Indeed.

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I'm not looking for a blurring of the gender lines. I don't look at other men and think they have too few fashion choices or that they need to wear makeup or nail polish. They are just fine the way they are, both aesthetically and the fact they are perfectly content being...men. The gender binary makes sense for most. We will always be outliers to some extent.

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Jamie001

I am clearly in the minority on crossdressers.com because I really don't want to pass or don't care about presenting as a woman. My ultimate goal is for society to accept feminine males in the same manner that it accepts Tomboys. Hopefully, one day this will happen, but it will not happen if the vast majority of us are closeted.

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Let me put it this way. Quite a few people here, deep down...don't identify as male, they identify as women. And I'm not just referring to the acknowledged TS's. I'm referring to those I call the "proto-TS" that just haven't figure it out yet, and to some that KNOW They're TS's but call themselves CD's and believe they will never transition because of their sense of family responsibility. These people aren't feminine males, they're women or identify as such in their hearts.

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I cannot expect you and other folks here to push the envelope in male-mode because that is not what you are about.

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Right.

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The problem is that the "fem male" (like me) is in the minority of a minority. In other words, crossdressers are a minority in society, and the fem male is a very small minority of the crossdresser subset.

:hugs: Jamie

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Indeed. Though it's good to see your perspective here, Jamie.

Veronica

Hi Veronica, nice to see your comment. Somehow I missed it the other day but I'm glad to come across it now.

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Originally Posted by VeronicaMoonlit

And You admit that you got drafted in the wrong team! No more middle path terminology for you, Missy, you're a non-transitioning transsexual...at the moment. And I'm only partly kidding on that you know.

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I'll wear that label but keep in mind that my personal expansion of the "middle path" has more to do with how I live my life rather than "what" I am. I have a foot on both sides of the gender fence and keeping things separated is made more difficult by my ever-present elephant.

Now on to rats....

Every so often I'm blessed with some quiet time at home where the family is gone for long enough to dabble in makeup and/or hair styling to my heart's content. Yesterday evening was one of those times and I took advantage.

I took care in removing my makeup, or so I thought. My wife commented earlier that my eyes looked a bit dark. Then my youngest daughter chimes in...

"Yeah, it looks like he's wearing rock star makeup."

Awww heck. Now my daughter is seeing the elephant.

For the record, I grabbed some eye makeup remover and a cotton pad and went over both eyes. The right side left a smidgen of black on the pad while the left pretty much left nothing. It had to be mascara but either way, one of these days I might learn and use a gallon of the stuff to ensure all traces are gone.

In hindsight, I know what might have held me back a bit last night. I got my eyebrows waxed on the way home from work so there was a little residual tenderness that made me less inclined to really scrub with the cotton pad.

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Originally Posted by VeronicaMoonlit

I think he has some sense of the elephant I think.

But we are not Fighters or Drivers, and a few celebrities does not a change in cultural behavior make.

Yep, and in fact you're one of the few people here I don't consider "traditionally transgendered". Haven't seen BB post here in a while either.

Technically you're a crossdresser, but your basic motivation isn't the same.

I totally disagree with you there, and in fact I've seen the opposite to be true. That the "gender bender crowd" bothers people more than traditional crossdresers do. They understand crossdressers as wanting to be like women at least part of the time, so dressing like women makes sense for someone who wants to be like them some of the time.


Still doesn't mean it's common, or that "ordinary" men are doing it.


But most men have no interest in doing so.


Indeed. Though it's good to see your perspective here, Jamie.

Veronica

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Hi Veronica,

Thank you for you perspective which IMHO was about 90 percent correct. You seems to understand what I'm all about and how I'm different.

In the case of fighters, drivers, and athletes wearing feminine items, I disagree with you. For example, many years ago men did not wear earrings and if they did it was only one earring. They certainly didn't wear 2 caret diamond stud earrings in both ears! Now it is commonplace - just look at how many NFL Players are doing this. More and more men - especially the younger generation are wearing earrings. Men operate from a "herd mentality" and are terrified of doing anything that differentiates them from the herd. Sports stars, drivers, fighters, musicians, and other famous men make it seem ok for the everyday man to deviate from the herd.

My Therapist that specializes in gender issues considers me transgendered and a crossdresser. Previously I disagreed with this assessment, but psychology has no other way to classify me even though I only desire the equivalent of a Tomboy (Jane-girl) to be accepted for Men. The only way to make this happen is to get out there and do it like myself, Butterfly Bill, and Sissy Stephanie do every day.

I still disagree regarding full crossdressing being more accepted than gender bending by incorporating some feminine items into an otherwise male presentation for the following reason:

A gender bender is not attempting to deceive folks into thinking that he is a woman. I am a mix of genders that is both male and female but folks can see that I'm clearly of the male sex. All that I'm doing is adding nail polish, capri pants, women's shoes and a purse. Just like when a woman (Tomboy) wears no makeup, a man's shirt, possibly a necktie, and men's shoes (or at least men's style shoes that are made in women's sizes and are called "boyfriend's shoes")

On the other hand, a crossdresser attempts to appear as a woman and to disguise that they are really of the male sex by tucking, wearing thick makeup to eliminate any signs of beard stubble, and wearing entirely feminine clothing. When a the average person clocks a crossdresser, they feel deceived, whereas in my case as a gender bending male, what you see is what you get - just like a Tomboy Woman that incorporates male clothing into her normal presentation while not disguising the fact that she is a woman by wearing a fake mustache or fake beard.

Ordinary men are not like me and are not doing it because they don't have the strong feminine personality within them. It is wonderful when famous straight men gender-bend because it makes it more ok for the male has feminine traits but is entrenched in the male herd mentality. To me, these famous people are heroes because the deviate from the herd mindset and show men that it is ok to do so. Some of these men even write blogs about it. :cheer::jumping: These men will eventually affect change in society for normal men.

I appreciate the folks here taking the time to hear my perspective. In the past my perspective of most crossdressers here has been incorrect. For a long time I was under the impression that most of the crossdressers attempt to pass simply so that they can wear women's clothing and makeup without suffering the ridicule that they would suffer if they wore these items when presenting as a man. I now realize that I was wrong and that the full female presentation is very important to them because it makes them a "complete women" as that is their real desire.

In my case, I have a very strong feminine side that is much stronger than my male side. I would say that I'm 70 percent female and 30 percent male and therefore I really prefer to be referred to as "maam" "rather than "sir" but I get referred to as both.

I hope that one day society will evolve to understand that gender is a continuum and that male and female identify sex, not gender. Society has a long way to go to get to this point because of generations of male conditioning that condemn expression of even the smallest feminine trait. If we stay in the closet and don't get out there and push the envelope, transgendered folks will not make progress. On the other hand, progress for some transgendered folks is to continue dressing and staying deeply closeted. Personally, I can't relate to this but at least I'm learning to respect their perspective.

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Originally Posted by Jamie001

I still disagree regarding full crossdressing being more accepted than gender bending by incorporating some feminine items into an otherwise male presentation for the following reason:

A gender bender is not attempting to deceive folks into thinking that he is a woman. I am a mix of genders that is both male and female but folks can see that I'm clearly of the male sex. All that I'm doing is adding nail polish, capri pants, women's shoes and a purse. Just like when a woman (Tomboy) wears no makeup, a man's shirt, possibly a necktie, and men's shoes (or at least men's style shoes that are made in women's sizes and are called "boyfriend's shoes")

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Just to clarify, I'm sure you're referring to people who experience both feminine and masculine affinities, and not TSs who do know that they reside in the wrong bodies. It's a good idea to specify such things around here since we do have a wide variety of people who read all the threads. I'm sure you are not intending on starting a debate about whether TSs are deceiving people when they live according to the gender they feel internally.

That said, I have run into the mindset you describe, but more so among genetic women than genetic men. I do know several FtMs who initially believed they were transmen but who eventually settled into an acceptance of "all" of who they are, for the precise reason you describe. They were tired of feeling as if a part of themselves was "wrong" somehow, so they instead chose to live life as masculine women. (And for the CDers reading this, I'm not referring to the garden-variety women who wear jeans, but to the genetic females who feel dualgender or masculine in every sense of the word, and who have questioned their genders at length). One particular FtM told me that she now prefers the pronoun "she" (for a while she did refer to herself as a "he"). She has no wish for bottom surgery, she no longer wants a mastectomy. She does get a man's haircut at a barber shop though, she purchases all her clothes in men's stores, and she has a male name. She is ensconced in her lesbian community and she does not want to leave it, hence the re-adoption of the pronoun "she". Her genetic female partner, on the other hand, has a gender neutral name and prefers the gender neutral pronouns. I'm not saying that all transmen feel this way, obviously there are F2Ms who feel just as uncomfortable being in a female body as there are M2Fs who feel uncomfortable being in male bodies and both will make changes to their bodies through hormones and surgery, but there is a growing number of people who are not pure TS and who are finding ways to honor their gender duality overtly, in all aspects of their lives.

However, I do not think that feminine males are accepted as readily as the masculine females I describe above. Honestly, I think that most people in our society still look at a feminine male and label him "gay". And straight men will despise him, depending on the milieu in which he lives of course. Still, I do believe that gay men are more accepted than are CDers (since the misinformation in our society is such that many people still believe CDers to be perverts) , so in this sense you may have a point. Some people may look more kindly upon a man whom they perceive to be gay, than a man who presents in a gender opposite than birth ... IF he is read. But, other people may not approve of either of them. And still others will approve of (or tolerate) both of them.

One last point ... if a GenderBender/Dualgender/CD/TG (or however you want to describe someone who is not cisgender nor transsexual) should find him/herself in a milieu where there are many traditional, conservative, homophobic people, the male who presents believably as a female has a greater chance of passing under the radar than a male presenting as a male but wearing items of women's clothing. And this is why so many people prefer to present as female. It's less noticeable that way, at least at first glance. Also, some TGs really do enjoy their appearance more as women than as feminine males and we cannot discount personal aesthetics.

My elephant, that is.

Dateline, Sunday afternoon, barely a half-hour ago. I am innocently going about my business at the grocery store. We're pushing 100 degrees here so I'm wearing a concert T-shirt, sweat shorts, no-show socks and non-descript Skechers shoes.

I'm pushing my cart towards a woman and her son who can't be older than 4. His eyes are fixated on me. I don't compute in his world. If he were an adult, I'd be getting the stink-eye but it's easy to excuse such behavior out of a child. As I walk by, I hear him ask his mom...

"Why is his hair so long?"

Too funny, I thought. It's not even down, I have it back in a pony. But as I got about 15 feet beyond them, I heard him say...

"So he's a girl???"

Really makes me wonder what mom said to him in response to the first question.

Sigh.

Really makes me think that taming this beast might be best.

I hope you don't Sara, I think you will trade one form of pain for another that is much worse.

Contrariwise, I think you started 'taming this beast' when you first had electrolysis. Only a really committed CDer would go so far and I suspect you knew that perfectly well when you made post #1. The elephant in your room has long since demolished the walls and rampaged off into the jungle.

I may of course be projecting from my own situation but the point is, the mahout hasn't been born that can keep this particular elephant under control.

Young kids don't compute the hair so well. I think we all hear it. The one I remember was walking to my car in a parking lot and as I passed a car where a young boy was in the cart and Mom was putting things in the car I heard "Mommy, why does he have girl hair?". Maybe mine and yours learned something those days.

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Originally Posted by Pexetta

Contrariwise, I think you started 'taming this beast' when you first had electrolysis. Only a really committed CDer would go so far and I suspect you knew that perfectly well when you made post #1. The elephant in your room has long since demolished the walls and rampaged off into the jungle.

I may of course be projecting from my own situation but the point is, the mahout hasn't been born that can keep this particular elephant under control.

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Actually, something I think I've learned from this long-ish running thread is that my elephant is actually quite well-behaved but it seems she gets into a bit of trouble when I'm careless and leave the keys to her paddock within reach. When she rampages, she tends to come back but by that time, even more people have already seen her.

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Originally Posted by Sue

Young kids don't compute the hair so well. I think we all hear it. The one I remember was walking to my car in a parking lot and as I passed a car where a young boy was in the cart and Mom was putting things in the car I heard "Mommy, why does he have girl hair?". Maybe mine and yours learned something those days.

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It's really hard to say if mine learned anything. I will never know what mom said to him to bring on that second comment. I'm thinking she saw my elephant as well.

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Originally Posted by KellyJameson

I hope you don't Sara, I think you will trade one form of pain for another that is much worse.

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Good point Kelly but when it comes to hair, it's actually about trading a source of absolute joy for something very painful.

And I think I've mentioned elsewhere, I often feel that the attachment I've developed to my hair borderlines on irrational. But it's real, my feelings are real, 100% real to me. There is a magic to having hair attached to one's head cascading on your shoulders. There is magic in having my self-image absolutely redefined, where femininity...even beauty, takes on an entirely new meaning no matter how I might be presenting.

I was out last week with my friend Diana. We hung out at Starbucks for a few hours, chatting and catching up. One of the first things we talked about is how things are going at home and I brought up that my wife has gone from vinegar "when are you going to cut your hair?" to sweet "when are you going to cut your hair?" I then told Diana that although I wasn't looking to spend $$$ on a hairstyle, I did so that morning because who knows how long I'll be able to keep this up. I remember sitting in the chair as my stylist performed her craft, how she piled and clipped my hair on top of my head so she could get at the layers underneath. How absolutely beautiful I felt in that chair when she was done.

As I finished the tale, Diana said to me something along the lines of "your eyes are twinkling, I can tell how much this means to you." She then went on to say how even though she might take her hair for granted, there are things about a woman that make her feel special, even feel sensual (by this time she brought breasts into the mix), all of this went far to lessen my impression that my feelings were somehow irrational.

But at the end of the day I just feel worse about it. Something this innocent shouldn't cause pain to those I love. But it does. Step outside of the gender binary and all bets are off. As individuals we are free to do what we choose with our bodies. Gosh knows I have tested that statement over and over again. But as individuals in relationships, we have to consider how our decisions are impacting those we love. Yes, I have considered. No, I have not acquiesced. It often makes me feel selfish but as I do all I can to keep that proverbial bell from ringing (not the dinner bell, the "time to transition" bell), I can somewhat justify carrying on as I have.

But what's next? Only time will tell.

We'll leave the lights on for you in safe haven :heehee:

as a person who has been "on the other side" when I came back to the dark side I re-grew my hair. While I was living as a girl I kept it at to just below the shoulders since so much more styling could be done with it at that length. About 10 years ago my hair was long enough that in a braid it touched my belt and I "had" to wear the biggest scrunchies I could find to tie it off. Age has it now crawling up my back and is a wimpy thing just touching my bra. My hair is my last visage to my "former" life and no Sara you are not strange for loving it

Jenn

This is going to be a difficult post. I'm not entirely sure where it'll go so please bear with me.

I have talked repeatedly about my efforts to find peace and love on a middle path. My middle path is defined as finding fulfillment on both sides of the gender fence in an attempt to stave off transition. Everyone who knows me understands that I do so out of love and respect for the life that I have built, namely family and career.

Many others have chimed in, talking about how they are in almost identical situations. There are a fair number of us out there for whom all things being equal would transition. We choose to remain true to our families. We attempt balance. I do believe we are capable of finding the fulfillment we are looking for. Many have described finding just that. Many are truly happy in this dual pursuit.

Still, there are others, mostly within the TS part of the gender spectrum, who legitimately question whether those of us on such a path are just kidding ourselves. Whether it's a "failure to launch" or that true happiness will certainly evade anyone who attempts to deny their true calling, they question the sustainability of this whole thing. I totally get where they are coming from as I am questioning that at this very time.

My elephant is a metaphor for the changes I have made in my appearance. When you think about it, each of these changes is in favor of my female presentation and at the expense of my "male" side. Yes, expense. Like it or not, more guys out there may be doing some or all of the things I have done but it doesn't mean any of it is perceived as normal. "Normal" males are furry. Normal males, especially my age, don't have over a foot of hair cascading off of the back of their head. I can rationalize it all I want but this whole effort flies in the face of what society thinks of as normal. I have transformed from utterly normal to an outlier. But I truly don't give a hoot what anyone else thinks.

Except for one person, my wife.

And despite the absolute joy that I have cultivated on both sides of the gender fence, it feels as if things are coming to a crossroads. You see, aside from the comments about my hair over the last couple of years, the rest of my elephant has remained just that when it comes to my wife, an elephant. That which is not brought up but we both know she's there. So in talking yesterday about some important logistical issues which have to do with my being able to manage this whole thing in a stealthy way within my own home (as in keeping my growing children in the dark), it finally came out...her utter disdain for each and every change that my elephant represents. The removal of my body hair, she hates it. My long hair of course she despises. Even my facial electrolysis that I have been slowly chipping away at (which I began with her tacit approval). All of these things represent the erasure of the man she married and are a constant reminder of who & what I am.

There are so many fallacies in these things many of us do, here are just a couple of them...

• I'm still the same person as I always have been. (Yes, perhaps you are the same person but now you have different packaging that really, we cannot expect our SO's to be able to accept no matter how much we might plead otherwise).
• It's my body, no one has the right to tell me what I can do with it. (Guess what? Many of our SO's exercise such a right as part of the marriage partnership.)

I mentioned tacit approval. Most, if not all of the changes I have made...heck, this probably holds true with my outing schedule, all seems to be based on some sort of tacit approval when in reality, it appears that it's simple exasperation on her part. Why say no when I will probably do what I want anyway. Has her giving that inch lead to my taking of the mile? Perhaps. Would she be happier if she had kept me in check early on? Definitely. Would I have been happier? Hard to say. I probably wouldn't know any better if my modus operandi in staving off a lifetime of TS feelings was to be closeted away.

So here we are at those crossroads. I have some choices to make but in all fairness, I need to share the nature of the seed of this discontent. Long story short, the place where I keep all of my stuff in our home must revert to it's original purpose. In other words, time to finish a remodel and this area which I have co-opted as my own cannot be this way any longer. I have a solution to build a small walk-in closet as a place to keep my stuff secure (as in away from the prying eyes of children...she is adamant that we won't be telling the kids). We're talking small, 15 square feet that can be tastefully done within the existing architecture of our home. 15 square feet that allows me to actually have a little place for my stuff without having to rely upon totes, file cabinet drawers, garment bags, etc. 15 square feet that I am able to accept NOT growing beyond. While one can do a lot with 15 square feet, by definition it would be pretty much impossible to turn into a hoarding situation.

So what does she think of this idea? It ain't gonna happen. We have gone around and around on this many times over the last year and yesterday I pinned her down on the root of her disapproval. It all comes down to what it represents, a closet for MY women's stuff. When all is said and done, it seems to be yet another reminder that she isn't going to have.

The solution for her is easy. Put all my stuff in totes. Or even spend the $$$ to rent a storage locker (I can just see Storage Wars right now if they were to ever get ahold of my stuff!!!). But to build this closet? Nope. To rebuild a sliding-door closet with my stuff in there unsecured? Nope.

This is the point where I dig my heels in. I refuse to live my life out of totes. I am already disorganized to the point where I have a tote full of amazing outfits that have been worn once, only to be tossed into this tote for eventual laundry or dry cleaning. I'd probably be able to go a couple years without shopping with all of these outfits that are kind of forgotten to the point where they still seem brand new to me. Getting away for an outing is hard enough the way it is now, I cannot imagine having to fish through a multitude of totes and garment bags to fish out the stuff I need to get ready on the fly as I often do.

At this point my options are few. I could give in and live out of totes, not that I have a really good place to keep any and besides, the security issue would remain with the kids. I can also play the martyr (which I acknowledge is quite the game but honestly, I feel as if I'm backed into a corner). I can eschew all things feminine and put it all away. I can go so far as to wipe away my elephant, either some or all of what has cultivated her existence. And not to create some sort of self-fulfilling prophecy or something like that but I know exactly what this will do to me emotionally.

The thing is, in this mode we're in that is essentially a step above DADT, all she is seeing is the very low percentage of my time that is devoted to my life on the feminine side of things. A couple outings a month? I'm going out all the time. Happiness on that side of my life? Why can't I derive the same happiness from my family? This is her perception, her reality. That if I derive any happiness away from the family that perhaps I need to go and live that life. I am getting zero credit for managing the torment in my soul in an effort to keep everything together.

It might seem as if this is all about "stuff". About the material things that go into helping my outside match what is in my heart. It could be such the social experiment to redefine what it means to me to be a woman by burying the "stuff". My elephant has already helped me to redefine femininity in my heart when it comes to expression. Part of me says with resolve, "not on my watch". My outings are essential to preserve my sanity. My friendships are very important as well. There is much risk if I play the martyr card. Am I prepared for the fallout? Is she? Or is fallout inevitable no matter what choice is made? This situation might be untenable. What makes me feel otherwise is that underneath all of this BS, love is absolutely present. After 20 years, I love her more than I did the day we got married.

Sara your situation sounds like a game of chess. Who makes the next move? I dare not attempt to give you any advice on it but I really do feel your pain. What I do know is that elephants cannot be confined to a small space for long. I hope you find compromise with your wife somehow.

Checkmate.

Sara, I feel a lot of pain here. The situation seems to be unmanageable at many levels. I can't recall, but have your wife and you gone to couples counseling before? I am believer in that there are resolutions to everything, it is just finding the correct middle ground.

I do agree that trying to play the martyr card wouldn't work. She probably feels that you are being selfish in all that you do and while it is true that we probably are all selfish at some level, it has been obvious that you are trying to find ways to balance things out.

Ultimately, probably all I can do is wish you the best, lend an ear, and give you a hug. When a relationship problem gets this deep, you really need to know the two people involved. All we know on your wife is that she is saying no and is uncomfortable with what sounds like everything. That is why I lean towards the counseling if it hasn't failed in the past.

I hope that you are able to find a resolution even if it means calming things down in the short term so that you two can work together for the long term. When there is love in the heart, there is always a way.

I wish I had an answer for you. I can only echo Marleena and wish you a peaceful compromise. Please keep us posted on how things go.

Wow! We need to talk. I may not have answers, but I'm a good listener and of course always a friend.

Ow. Ow ow ow ow ow.

I'm so sorry. I'm not on this site as much, and hadn't read any of this till this morning. I can feel the pain. I'm so sorry for both of you.

Therapy for you. Couples counseling (If she'll go) for both of you. She might need her own therapist as well, but that's up to her.

Again, I'm sorry you have to go through this, but go through it you must. At least, that's my opinion.

*hugs*

For many months I have read the words and felt the pain of men in marriages who are struggling between two loves and trying to protect them both, those they love and the love they are trying to find, restore or keep of self.

It is only in hindsight why I have always had a pathological fear of intimacy with a woman but this is not a fear of sex except in the symbolic, dysphoric sense
as it was in being someone elses other half and that binding together with a woman to become one while remaining separate.

I see now from deep inside me in a place I could not articulate was the utter conviction and "knowing" that this would mean death for me not in the physical sense but for soul, my will to live, my spirit. That force we need inside us to push on everyday and make life worth living.

People find love in marriage to help give meaning to life but I avoided it to prevent meaning from being taken from it.

Binding myself to a woman meant the cessation of my own existence and for me this is one expression of intense gender dysphoria that was made worse by being in a relationship because it increases the chasm between me and the physical reality that I needed to have.

This is a never ending form of fluctuating anxiety that never goes to sleep but only changes in intensity.

This is not a self esteem issue, it does not come from past abuse or from any type of experience that could account for it in environment. It is one and only one thing and that is the fight to keep the identity alive that you know to be true.

It is the experience of being pulled under water by others and constantly fighting to swim back to the surface where there is life giving oxygen.

If my words feel in anyway similar to your own truth Sara than it will come down to sacrificing one love for another and if it is you it will mean that you stop searching for yourself and suspend your life for others which is extremely dangerous because you risk losing your will to live and the capacity to experience pleasure.

Because this is really a question about pain the pain will decide so any choice will be made between the pain, between two forms of suffering that happen inside you.

If you are a woman can you live separated from yourself without destroying yourself? Can you give up the journey back to self? Can you answer the question of who you are without experiencing being that person?

Most men that crossdress are men and they soften that part of themselves that is still a man but were taught to reject so in some ways crossdressing takes a man back to his heart (love) and this can be really healthy but there is no danger to them because their identity and body are one and the same thing.

Other men use it for sexual release, still no danger beyond the typical complications that come with sex which are universal regardless of expression. And often there is a mixture of both the search for heart and experience of ones sexuality.

But when body and identity are not aligned this is endless chaos and like torture everyone has a limit to what they can take and something will eventually break.

The question to answer is how wide is the chasm between self and body and your whole life will have been an expression of this by what you searched for and what you tried to protect inside of you.

I can really see both sides of this. My understanding of gender is different than your wife's (I believe there exists non-binary gender), but I can understand a wife who believes there are men, women, and nothing in between. To such a wife any cross-gender expression is incomprehensible and further, it is distasteful. Or, if you are in the binary (if you are TS and will never truly be happy unless you eradicate your male self), then I can see the push-pull between the two of you and I can certainly understand your wife's denial as she attempts to preserve the status quo with a husband that she loves.

She has seen Sara emerge bit by bit, first with a few items of clothing, then outings combined with body shaving, eyebrow plucking, nail growing and polishing, long hair, (and also from your past posts increasing hip and butt size), plus an ever increasing accumulation of clothing and accessories. She might have reluctantly been OK with all of this as long as your things were "impermanently" scattered around the house in tote bags, as if this was a phase that might eventually subside. But, a clothes closet that is dedicated to Sara lends an air of permanence and it is as serious to your wife, I'm guessing, as if you were deciding to begin taking hormones.

Still. She should allow for adequate storage of clothing. It really is just clothing storage in a house that you both share, and it will not change anything. But, you need to be crystal clear with her right now about your ultimate goals. This business of bit-by-bit growth, and your wife also noticing your ever increasing need (and sheer joy) in expressing Sara, is torture to her, as I'm sure it is for you as long as there is an elephant in the room. Hiding an elephant is stressful both for the person hiding it, and the person who tries hard not to see it.

In other words, it is not about the new closet for your stuff, it is about where this is all heading.

If you can honestly say that you also have a male identity that YOU do not wish to eradicate (as opposed to saying you are attempting to maintain a balance out of your love for her), then TELL HER this in order to ease her fears. She's not interested in hearing that you are holding yourself back for her. She wants to know that you are not moving forward for YOU. If you cannot do this, then it might be best for the two of you to part company sooner than later. It's damn hard starting a life over, the closer one gets to retirement.

I'm intrigued. Sorry for showing up late.

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

... I would be absolutely floored if he were any sort of TG himself, let alone an admirer. He is a guy's guy who can be so very happy laying on a raft in my pool with a beer in hand patting his moderately rotund (and extraordinarily hairy) belly, just as proud as he can be. And I can pretty much guarantee that the only TG he knows is me, even if he is not quite certain yet.

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This is your best friend? The guy who keeps noticing more and more things and making little comments?

You've gotta watch out. You've gotta really think about what your boundaries are. I know it sounds silly, but this could turn into a situation that totally blindsides you.

Guys get a little weird when their friends turn out to be gay or trans. If you're not in the let's-drink-a-beer-and-whistle-at-chicks zone, you're in a place that has some sexual tension. Some guys can deal with that and even make jokes about it. Some guys can't.

If you're not their 100% hetero dude buddy, you become a sex object to some degree. It doesn't mean they're going to be offensive or try to rape you. But one day they might have too many drinks and tell you you're un-f*ckable. Or maybe they'll tell you that you are. Either way, it's a weird situation.

Maybe you've thought of this and you're prepared to stand up for yourself. But is being out new to you? Are you prepared for your own feelings?

And in a way, it can be flattering just to be seen in any kind of feminine terms. A part of you will say, "This person sees the woman in me, and that's all I want," and no matter how gross a guy is, it's good to feel beautiful and desired. You've gotta plan ahead and make up your mind that if you hear that voice in your head you're going to tell the b*tch to shut up.

Sorry for the tangent, but I just thought if you hadn't really experienced what it's like to come out to your guy friends that it might be helpful.

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

Might some on the TS end of things think I'm less authentic by choosing to stay on this particular path? You bet.

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Less authentic? You're not posting about frilly panties. You're posting about changes you're making to your everyday life to make you more feminine. You say you identify as female. Sounds pretty authentically TS to me.

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

I have my family for whom my personal sacrifice is made. I place my sanity at risk every day of my life, not to mention the vice that squeezes my heart more often than not, all to be surrounded by a love that I am simply unwilling to risk.

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Not that I'm necessarily right, I really think most people who try to stay in the middle are torturing themselves and they would be better off (as far as their sanity) to go a little further to the one side of the path that they know they want to be on. Let's be honest, you're pushing pretty hard towards one side, aren't ya?

But, if you love the woman, if you love the relationship as it is, your sacrifice may be improving your sanity, not just appeasing her.

OK, here's another tangent of mine. Because I never hear anybody else talk seriously about the sexual-orientation-transition you force on yourself as a married M2F.

You kinda blame things on your wife not being comfortable with your inner female. But look at the big picture. Even if your wife is totally supportive and accepting, it's pretty weird to transition from living as a straight guy to living as a lesbian.

Seriously. I transitioned, and within a couple months I was totally comfortable being full-time and felt that I passed just fine. Not that I'm particularly attractive, but nobody looked at me funny. But when you throw a wife/girlfriend into the mix, that's when things get hard. Because gay people making public displays of affection attract attention.

And I'm not talking about inappropriate displays. I'm talking about subtle things. It attracts attention. It makes you self-conscious. You act more awkward. People look at you. In the end it adds up to you outing yourself as trans as soon as you out yourself as a lesbian. And you don't want to attract attention. So you show less affection towards your wife. And that puts a big strain on your relationship.

For me, it came out of nowhere. I realized, "Wow. I guess I really don't know the appropriate way for a lesbian couple to act in public."

And it made me realize that I had put all my energy into coming to terms with being trans but neglected to really think about what it was to be a lesbian. You're married to a straight woman. Unless she's capable of being publicly gay, and privately getting what she wants from a relationship with another woman, it's just not gonna work out.

And even if you take her out of the equation, you need to take a long look on whether or not you can handle being a lesbian with a lesbian. Because if you don't really cope with what it is to be a woman who loves women, you're going to end up being with unstable women. I went through that for awhile. Women were intrigued by me! I'm the weird guy who's going to get a sex change! But the women I dated weren't lesbians. They were unstable women who saw me as a novelty.

I'm just saying, being a lesbian is a huge part of the "big picture" that people tend to ignore completely when they wish they could transition. It might be a good reason to stop pushing towards the female side of the "middle path" and be happy with the relationship you have.

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Originally Posted by VeronicaMoonlit

I'm a little more careful with the term woman.... I personally feel I haven't earned my womanhood yet.

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Ugh! That's how I felt for so long! I didn't accept myself. I basically idealized womanhood and thought I wasn't good enough to see myself as a "real woman." It really screwed up my perspective more than I realized. It was a depressing place to be at.

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

At the end of the day, this woman comes into my office and takes a seat. We were talking for all of 30 seconds when she says...

You're wearing mascara, aren't you???

To which I calmly replied, "no, I'm not".

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Some people are more observant than others. But the people-watchers are usually the quiet ones. So by the time someone actually says something, you can bet they weren't the first to notice.

Not that I'm a huge Monty Python fan, but this immediately made me think of the Black Knight.

"You're wearing mascara!"

"No I'm not!"

"Well what's that, then?"

"I'm tired."

"No you're not! That's makeup on your face!"

"It's just guyliner."

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

it finally came out...her utter disdain for each and every change that my elephant represents. The removal of my body hair, she hates it. My long hair of course she despises. Even my facial electrolysis that I have been slowly chipping away at (which I began with her tacit approval). All of these things represent the erasure of the man she married and are a constant reminder of who & what I am.

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Ouch.

She might not actually hate every one of those things. She just hates that you're trying to kill off the man she married, and she hates that you're trying to invade her space in the role as the woman.

My ex was awesome at first. She accepted me as a woman more than I accepted myself. She'd even dated a few girls. She knew how to treat a woman. She loved to go shopping with me. She gave me my estrogen injections.

But in the end she wanted a more normal life for her and her daughters, and it was just too much for her feeling like she was losing her place as the woman.

The bottom line is that if you're a lesbian you have to be with a woman who's OK with being a lesbian. Otherwise it's going to all hit the fan sooner or later.

Thanks to everyone for the kind words, I really appreciate the thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Sue

...She probably feels that you are being selfish in all that you do and while it is true that we probably are all selfish at some level, it has been obvious that you are trying to find ways to balance things out.

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I'd be lying if I didn't think OFTEN about how selfish this whole thing seems. Whether being perfectly content if the entire family took off for several hours which gives me some quiet time at home to the changes made to my appearance, a lot of this seems selfish on the surface. But then shouldn't we look at the alternative? What becomes of our psyche if we bury this aspect of our being? What happens if we have no mode of expression? Will that affect our relations with others? In my case, unfortunately it can do just that. I get cranky if I cannot get out & about at least every two weeks or so. One thing that has changed though is my home crankiness has been diminished by my appearance changes. It's like the clothes, and certainly the makeup, becomes less necessary because I feel closer to my true self in my daily expression, if that makes any sense.

Counseling is such an obvious option, one that I didn't even remotely consider in the heat of the moment. We haven't gone there before, thank you for bringing it up. Sometimes stating the obvious can be such a good thing when one is blinded to most of what is around them.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I can really see both sides of this. My understanding of gender is different than your wife's (I believe there exists non-binary gender), but I can understand a wife who believes there are men, women, and nothing in between. To such a wife any cross-gender expression is incomprehensible and further, it is distasteful. Or, if you are in the binary (if you are TS and will never truly be happy unless you eradicate your male self), then I can see the push-pull between the two of you and I can certainly understand your wife's denial as she attempts to preserve the status quo with a husband that she loves.

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I believe in gender fluidity, that the proof lies in something as simple as the membership of these pages.

It's society that has constructed the binary, for better or for worse. And I think that most people can get their heads around some variation of black & white (as in, some men are more manly than others, some women come across as being more feminine than others) but to travel too far from the binary leads to the outlier territory which is apparently where I reside. Regardless, I too accept the general premise of a gender binary and have often said that I was simply drafted to the wrong team. And don't get me wrong, I harbor absolutely no resentment towards my wife because she struggles with this. It stinks for her, it stinks for many SO's out there. I cannot blame her in the least bit for trying to preserve the status quo.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

She has seen Sara emerge bit by bit, first with a few items of clothing, then outings combined with body shaving, eyebrow plucking, nail growing and polishing, long hair, (and also from your past posts increasing hip and butt size), plus an ever increasing accumulation of clothing and accessories. She might have reluctantly been OK with all of this as long as your things were "impermanently" scattered around the house in tote bags, as if this was a phase that might eventually subside. But, a clothes closet that is dedicated to Sara lends an air of permanence and it is as serious to your wife, I'm guessing, as if you were deciding to begin taking hormones.

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Very insightful, and yes, I think you are right.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Still. She should allow for adequate storage of clothing. It really is just clothing storage in a house that you both share, and it will not change anything. But, you need to be crystal clear with her right now about your ultimate goals. This business of bit-by-bit growth, and your wife also noticing your ever increasing need (and sheer joy) in expressing Sara, is torture to her, as I'm sure it is for you as long as there is an elephant in the room. Hiding an elephant is stressful both for the person hiding it, and the person who tries hard not to see it.

In other words, it is not about the new closet for your stuff, it is about where this is all heading.

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This is exactly where I'm going the next time we talk.

I have shared with many others, both IRL and in these pages, my commitment to stay on this middle path. Sometimes it's those conversations with friends, many of whom are like-minded people (others of the TG persuasion who are also balancing family & career in the face of whatever TG issues that are present) go far to give me strength.

Yes, from her POV I am on that proverbial slippery slope. She has no idea what next week, next month, or next year might bring. Heck, neither do I. But the fact remains that I am committed to staying on this path. The reason this is lost upon her? It's really quite simple, a lack of communication when it comes to this huge elephant in our relationship.

I need to express to her where I see this whole thing going. I need to reassure her.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

If you can honestly say that you also have a male identity that YOU do not wish to eradicate (as opposed to saying you are attempting to maintain a balance out of your love for her), then TELL HER this in order to ease her fears. She's not interested in hearing that you are holding yourself back for her. She wants to know that you are not moving forward for YOU. If you cannot do this, then it might be best for the two of you to part company sooner than later. It's damn hard starting a life over, the closer one gets to retirement.

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Wow, that's a tough one to answer.

I think she knows too well that I would eradicate the male in a heartbeat. I don't think she's too concerned about my reasons not to do so, whether it be for her, my children, whatever it might be. Just like when she says "please cut your hair, even if only for me". She'd be all good with me NOT doing these things, regardless of the motivation.

At the end of the day, I cannot say anything but the fact that I am trying to maintain balance for her, for my family. What I can say is that I have known joy in doing so despite where things are right now. But it's not like there is a right or wrong answer here. Choosing to transition could lead to fulfillment beyond my wildest dreams, but it very well could be the equivalent of trading one set of issues for another. My choice at this moment is predicated upon not risking my family.


By the way...Raquel, your post is wonderful and unique in it's perspective. I will try to address it within the next day or two.

I've been thinking of responding for a while, and figured I had better do it before the thread gets closed. There are things I will say that I believe need to be said, but I really do hate saying them.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

But, a clothes closet that is dedicated to Sara lends an air of permanence and it is as serious to your wife, I'm guessing, as if you were deciding to begin taking hormones.

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Yes, as do the mini-body-mods, especially the electrolysis.

Quote:

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Still. She should allow for adequate storage of clothing.

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Quote:

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But, you need to be crystal clear with her right now about your ultimate goals. This business of bit-by-bit growth, and your wife also noticing your ever increasing need (and sheer joy) in expressing Sara, is torture to her, as I'm sure it is for you as long as there is an elephant in the room. Hiding an elephant is stressful both for the person hiding it, and the person who tries hard not to see it.

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Yes. I think it's time for Sara and her wife to have the Big talk, the Long open and honest talk about The Elephant. It's not good to leave things unsaid, or to beat around the bush, it's time to "use the words"

Quote:

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If you can honestly say that you also have a male identity that YOU do not wish to eradicate (as opposed to saying you are attempting to maintain a balance out of your love for her), then TELL HER this in order to ease her fears.

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We both know that Sara can't tell her that, which to be honest, isn't really fair to Sara's wife.

Quote:

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She's not interested in hearing that you are holding yourself back for her. She wants to know that you are not moving forward for YOU. If you cannot do this, then it might be best for the two of you to part company sooner than later. It's damn hard starting a life over, the closer one gets to retirement.

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I agree.

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

Counseling is such an obvious option, one that I didn't even remotely consider in the heat of the moment. We haven't gone there before, thank you for bringing it up. Sometimes stating the obvious can be such a good thing when one is blinded to most of what is around them.

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And not just couples counseling...counseling for you to, you know why.

Quote:

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Yes, from her POV I am on that proverbial slippery slope. She has no idea what next week, next month, or next year might bring. Heck, neither do I. But the fact remains that I am committed to staying on this path. The reason this is lost upon her? It's really quite simple, a lack of communication when it comes to this huge elephant in our relationship.

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You told a little fib there....you know where it's heading, you just can't bring yourself to say it yet. What you're doing is honorable yes, it's self-sacrifice, yes. But is it a "good" thing for you both. it denies the nonesty and reality of the thing. Because, as we both know:

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I think she knows too well that I would eradicate the male in a heartbeat.

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There, you said it. And you DO need to say it directly to her as well. Yes, I know what that will mean, but honesty is the most important thing.

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At the end of the day, I cannot say anything but the fact that I am trying to maintain balance for her,

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But from her perspective, she might not see balance, just ever increasing Sara. To her, Balance might be in what a TS acquaintance of mine once called the "pona time" aka "the before time" Before the Electro, before the brows, before the hair, before all the stuff that needs proper storage.

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But it's not like there is a right or wrong answer here.

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The right answer is putting all the cards on the table. Has your wife seen your writings here? Is she a member here? Has she been on one of your outings where you interact with people like your favorite counter-girls and Diana?

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By the way...Raquel, your post is wonderful and unique in it's perspective. I will try to address it within the next day or two.

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Nods... that you'll have to address too. Would your wife accept being part of a Lesbian relationship.

I also think it's time the kids were told, that would help with the logistics of it wouldn't it, changing at home would reduce some of the time requirements wouldn't it? Reduce some friction at least.

But as was said, there's a light on the Safe Haven for you. And I'm not being prescriptive or cheerleadery on this. You "know", deep in your heart what you truly want. It's why you did the electro, you might have said to her "it's for logistics so I can use less makeup and take less time with makeup and look nicer", but you really wanted a part of your maleness gone besides those reasons.

Veronica