Wow! Cue music to Twilight Zone.
3000 huh? 'Well gee golly'.
Wow! Cue music to Twilight Zone.
3000 huh? 'Well gee golly'.
I call this discussion all bunk, you're comment about as far as you are aware LGBT people have Human Rights. I wish that were the case, you need to do a little research before you start telling LGBT folks that they have all rights equal to heterosexual folks.
There is also a conservative party of people railing against us every single day now and introducing bills trying to take away our rights.........
I don't see any bill being introduced to take away rights of hetrosexual folks though, that would be fun to see for a change though......
I am done, I don't see this thread ending on a good note.
People who roughly share your opinion may be the majority here, but if you look outside your window Paula you'll see where you're the minority. The Twilight Zone is right here, you're in it.
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Human rights and equal rights in general are two different things Laurie. When you make the sacrifice for your own good to determine your own gender you have to accept what you're getting yourself into, did you not know how you would be treated? Were you not aware of something?
Taking away rights of transgender people (I thought they didn't have rights) is bad. But taking away the rights of heterosexual people for no reason, that would be fun.
This is actually true if any of you actually cared to do some research, it took me all of what.... 10 seconds...Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexa CD
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11639240
So, just read it and then form your opinions instead of posting the usual crap slamming a member when you've done nothing to find out if this is true... so annoying!!
Quote:
A recent youth survey revealed 1.2 per cent of New Zealand school-aged children identified as transgender - more than 3000 in Auckland and more than 9000 nationwide.
So Alexa .... not debating your numbers. However your original post implied that these children are being coerced into being trans. Is that your contention? If so, l can't find anything regarding forced transition factual or anecdotal.
My concern is that anecdotal stories which paint this like a Trans conspiracy ... let's indoctrinate your children ... helps nobody. It doesn't help those children who are truly trans, it doesn't help the Trans community nor does it help society writ large
Society tends to be a pendulum going way far one, way, then way far another way. We all have a right to differing opinions, and understandings , and things are changing so fast now, in society, that it will take some time to see, if all trends were really healthy and good or not. History or herstory books in the future, will tell the truth.
Well, unfortunately, the statistics in that brief article (and would it have killed Alexa to say "Auckland"?) don't really tell the whole story. Here's the report they were derived from - found with 10 seconds of googling:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamara Croft
http://www.jahonline.org/article/S10...ltext#sec1.1.2
So according to those statistics, sure, 3000 kids in Auckland answered on the survey that they were transgender. However, only 32% reported having disclosed this information to anyone other than the survey. So the number of kids who are out as trans in some way is much, much smaller than was reported. Further, as you continue to read the survey, the trans kids report experiencing elevated levels of depression, suicidal ideation, bullying, violence, and alcohol use - in other words, the same things the kids here in the states report. This is a HUGE difference in reality from what Alexa presented - that is that thousands of kids in (apparently) Auckland NZ were being encouraged to transition? Encouraged by who? The bullies that beat them up?
So I apologize if I came off as harsh, but the abuse of statistics that I saw, and that are borne out by reading the actual source material, is *exactly* the type of thing that anti-trans concern (edit:people) do here in the states. So I came down on it pretty hard. Given the damage those people do over here, I feel this was justified - believe me, I spend *a lot* of time fighting such people as they try to get laws passed here to make transition effectively impossible, especially for young people.
Probably the most interesting thing to my mind that I read in that paper, btw, was that 2.5% of the respondents didn't understand the term transgender - and yet in many ways mirrored some of the same negative results as the transgender kids. Which makes one go hmmm.... (Or at least me.)
TLDR: There aren't 3000 out trans kids in Auckland - those numbers really are absurd. Use the source, Luke!
I feel that the decision to transition should be deferred until adulthood, primarily because it is a life-changing event, and it requires a certain amount of maturity. You need to think about things like marriage, having children, career, and young people just don't think about those things.
On the other hand, if I'd been given the choice when I was young (grade school or even younger) I'm sure I'd have jumped at the chance to transition. I'm not sure though, because it was so out-of-the-question back then that it wasn't even worth thinking about.
I'm handicapped. I was born with a congenital birth defect in my legs. They never thought I would walk - but after many surgeries, I did. I can walk, but my feet are pigeon toed in the extreme - I can turn them inwards in ways that are basically physically impossible for most other people to do. This has a very pronounced affect on my gait. So when I was 10, the doctors who worked on me presented my mom with a choice - really a potentially life altering choice. They wanted to saw through the bones in my legs above the knee, rotate them, reset them, and in so doing, straighten them. So they'd still turn in at my hips - that is my problem, my hips allow too much rotation of my legs, but they'd LOOK normal when I walked or stood upright.
My mother left this decision to me. I was 10. Keep in mind, this affected me EVERY DAY of my life, and still does today.
Should she have left the decision to me? Because I opted not to have the surgery. It was purely cosmetic. And I worried it could've gone horribly wrong. I have not regretted my decision a single day in my life since making it. Not once. And sure, it's had profound social consequences for me - largely negative. I'm viewed as a cripple, people stare at me. I'm stared at every time I'm out. It's so frequent that I really no longer notice it unless I let myself. I don't care about that anymore. Being perceived as handicapped in school meant I was bullied.
So did she make the wrong choice letting me make the decision?
BTW, if you want to claim this isn't the same - it's not as life changing, potentially, as gender transition, then try going for a week without using your legs, and get back to me how much that affected your life - because losing the use of them was absolutely a possibility. Not a large possibility, but we all knew I was a guinea pig, and I'd had plenty of that.
I mention this because I feel it directly relates to the notion of giving children no autonomy over their bodies. The surgery would've made me conform to society's expectations better. Should my parent have given me such a decision as a child, yes or no? And if you answer "yes", then why shouldn't a trans kid have a say in what happens to them. And if you answer "no", I'd like you to answer why MY feelings about the matter, which are EXACTLY what they were 43 years ago don't matter.
Now-a-days, it is not uncommon for some young ones who think they are the wrong sex to have medications, with parents consent, to delay the on-set of puberty (if they are of that fortunate age). This gives them time to better come to terms with their challenges and to then ultimately make a decision.
Would it have killed you to ask her where she was from, or just you generally assume everyone is from the USA? Contrary to belief, there are actually other countries you know... and omg... they have.... drumroll please.... transgender people... (hows that for condescending... good no?)Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
Got facts to prove that have you?Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
It's all very well people posting stuff they think is true, but what pisses me off is people respond with their version of facts with no evidence to back it up!
The point is this, you all jumped on her regarding her statistics and then off on a tangent regarding other stuff I have yet to see any of you back up.
Bottom line is, unless you can prove something yourself, don't jump on others, it pisses me off and you really don't want to piss me off... not a good idea generally...
I did ask her. I PM'd her, in fact, and believe I asked in thread. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamara Croft
I linked the study that was the source of the news article, Tamara - the things I said are very clearly stated there. Would you like me to quote them back for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamara Croft
http://www.jahonline.org/article/S10...ltext#sec1.1.2
From the study:
Have you disclosed being transgender?
Yes 32 (34.8)
No 60 (65.2)
So only 34.8% of the respondents had disclosed being transgender. That's 1000 trans kids who are out, not 3000 - a pretty big difference.
Another snippet:
These things back my assertions, not Alexa's. I am sorry for my tone - but not for what I said.Quote:
Students who were transgender, not sure, or did not understand the question were at increased risk of violence and had compromised personal safety. In particular, transgender students appeared especially vulnerable to mistreatment. For example, more than half were afraid someone at school would hurt or bother them, and nearly one in five transgender students reported experiencing bullying at school on a weekly (or more frequent) basis
I agree with Cynthia. We are making experiments and guinea pigs out of little children. Let kids wait until they are 18 and more capable of making huge decisions. Sorry. Just my opinion.
I was on a a local NPR program 2 weeks ago with the doctor who heads the children's trans program at UCSF. She spent a large amount of time explaining the safeguards against parents or children making mistakes in these matters. They are doing great work there and I am confident they are helping children make good decisions every step of the way!
Suzanne
FWIW
I found it very interesting that this same exact thread is up and running over on another web forum that is very popular for trans folks...........but I did not find any mention of NZ cities being hailed as the basis for the thread nor any numbers / statistics.........
To be honest . . . not super concerned about the statistics stated as statistics are just that, a number . . . heck you can statistically prove a high probability of a elephant hanging suspended over cliff with only it's tail tied to a daisy :).
My biggest concern was Alexa's statement about children being coerced into transitioning. There have been plenty of alarmist articles written by people who are ringing the bell of "danger, danger" where there is none. I believe a doctoral candidate on sexual neuroscience wrote an article published in the Wall Street Journal (now there is a top tier psych journal) about kids being encouraged by parents to socially transition. I believe the author's last name was Soo or Soh (can't remember . . . getting old). Any way her contention was transgender children are being coerced. However, the one issue with her research was she did not differentiate between "gender non-conforming" and true transsexual children. Specifically, much the behavior being supported by parents was "gender non-conforming" . . . it is okay to play with dolls if you are a boy and paint your nails or it is okay to cut your hair short and play soldier if you are a girl. Yes, some used the other gender pronoun and different names but in most case they identified as their birth gender. Specifically very few of these children were transsexual. I suspect a lot of alarmist thought comes from similar observations by other people . . . Goodness do you know the Smiths let their 10 year old son wear nail polish like a girl . . . what's next hormones and GRS? In contrast the Trans Youth Project followed a few hundred families and found that very few gender non-conforming children ever transition later in life. However, those children who are transsexual who don't have support are more likely to suffer bullying, intolerance and depression (high rate of suicide). Contrarily, the ability of these children to begin social transitioning early in life and eventually transitioning as an adult ensures a healthy emotional state.
Now does this equate to some conspiracy theory? No. Goodness if your child was ill would you deny them help to get better? Alexa's contention seems to be confusing gender non-conforming with true transsexual children. If you can't see a need to ensure that transsexual children grow up with healthy emotional state then I have to ask where is your empathy? Look at all the transsexual folk on this forum who suffer years of a closeted existence, self-loathing and depression because there was no help for them when they were young.
Now if there are parents out there allowing "whomever . . . perhaps the smoking man" talk them in to transitioning their child who is not truly transsexual, then I have to ask the question . . . What kind of parent does that? Are they that naïve (read stupid) that anyone with a good story will convince them to put their children in harms way? Seriously . . . if parents are not sure and are feeling pressure, I'm sorry time to grow a backbone and say no or seek a second opinion because that is what parents do. However, don't drum up a boogey man or conspiracy theory where none exists because that IMHO only panders to the fear mongering and intolerance surrounding those of us who live this every day.
"Blockers buy time"..In this time a young person has the tine to feel out their path. Serious stuff for serious kids given with lots of counseling and medical help and parental discussion...Everyone involved..The person becomes educated to make their own choice well before 18.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice Torn
Given comments like "Let children be children", lets do some defining. First I will leave Non-Binary/Non-conforming out of this and just talk transsexuals as the main part of the discussion I am addressing is about transitioning and NB/NC don't transition the same way if at all.
Transsexual individuals are those that transition. The definition in the TS Forum (sticky with definitions):
Transsexual (TS) - An individual who is changing their assigned birth gender permanently to that of the opposite.
So a child or teen goes to their parents and tells them that they got their gender wrong. For those that say that you should let kids be kids and not transition them, you child is now either homeless or dead. That is what happens. They don't go and push their trucks and play with their dolls because they are dysphoric, scared, and sinking fast. You either react or you lose them. So what does transition mean to a child? It mostly means being called by the right name and addressed with the appropriate gender, and then changes to outward appearance. At the age of puberty setting in, it means going on hormone blockers. It doesn't mean HRT and it doesn't mean surgery. Everything is fully reversible. It basically stops the clock so that they can mature to an age that we can say we gate kept them enough that we trust their decision (whether this is right or not, I won't argue in this message).
So it is not an experiment. These are tried and true methods that have been fully studied by experts. Hormone blockers are actually considered extremely safe.
Most of what I just said can also be found here:
http://www.livescience.com/50755-tra...r-puberty.html
I think hormone blockers are a good idea for transsexual children. As far as HRT or sexual reassignment surgery, I think the minimum age should be 21. This is a very important decision and I think the 3 additional years will allow them to gain more maturity, and will enable them to make a better informed decision.
My opinion is that this does not happen, and is not a real concern. Just because more parents are accepting and supportive does not mean all are. I run a support group, and am part of a support organization. I will be meeting with a trans kid this week whose parents are NOT supportive. There is substantially greater support for trans kids here in the DFW area than I experienced growing up here- until you get out into the less populous parts of the state. But "substantially more" is still not great. The trans kids I know of tend to have a lot of problems with other kids. So there is plenty of social pressure to not transition, in addition to pressure from family members. For example, an oft stated objection to transition is "who will love you if you do this." I've heard this a number of times in my group.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paula_56
The process here locally goes something like this:
1. Find a gender therapist - talk about gender stuff with the child and their parents. A LOT.
2. Recommend them to the Genecis program at children's medical.
3. Go through a bunch more evaluations
4. If the kid makes it through all that - they get blockers
The administrations in individual schools are also sometimes problems. Both Dallas and Fort Worth have trans supportive school boards. Many of the outlying and rural cities DO NOT, and so for kids in those schools, it is not uncommon for trans kids to discover they can't use the bathroom at school all day. This is because:
1. They are sometimes forced to use the unisex faculty bathroom, but they lack sufficient time between classes to get to it
2. They are forced to use the bathroom that matches their birth certificate. Many would rather avoid this, even if that means not eating or drinking all day to avoid using the restroom. (BTW, I did this too - I wasn't out, but using the boys restroom was always really uncomfortable for me as a kid.)
Aside from all of that, EVERY family of a trans kid I've spoken with has talked to me about problems with bullying their child has encountered in public schools.
It really isn't the case, at least not here in Texas, that a kid can simply declare "I feel like a girl today" and get hormones or surgery.
BTW, getting GCS is quite a process anyway. The top end surgeons, like Marci Bowers (I met with her last week), have multi-year waiting lists at this point. You could approve a trans kid for genital surgery, and there's a decent chance it won't happen until they are over 18 anyway, just because of this. There *are* some surgeons with shorter waiting lists. They tend to not have near the reputations of the surgeons with long waiting lists.
When I was a kid, heck, even when I was 18 and thinking about transition, it seemed like suicide. Now? It's possible for kids to transition. It isn't easy, and in my experience it isn't something anyone pushes, but it's possible. By the way, the kids that do this tend to have, again, in my experience, much better lives than I did. I wasn't able to transition back then. So I was suicidal, and quickly succumbed to alcoholism and drug abuse. I am VERY surprised I didn't die in my late 20's - I certainly wanted to.
If I might ask - how do you know that you won't, one day, transition? I mean, do any of us know our future? At what point do you know for sure someone isn't "just a crossdresser?" Especially if you've decided "their judgement can't be trusted?"
By the way, wouldn't it be a kind of social transition to live openly as a crossdresser? I assume you are talking about "medical transition", but psssh - that's the easy part of this! Why wouldn't you want a young crossdresser to be encouraged to come out, express their gender as they felt appropriate, even if they never wanted to transition medically or legally? Why wouldn't that be a valid outcome? I can assure you that dealing with the comments and pressure from showing up to class looking like a boy one day, and a girl the next, would require really serious effort on the part of the CD kid. Transition is really not, at it's heart, a medical process. Oh, HRT and surgery help a lot of us, but the defining thing about transition - ask any of us who've done it - is the social side of it. I think an open CD kid in many schools would have a very difficult time of it. Would they really allow them to use whichever restroom they felt matched their gender identity that day? Indeed, many of the arguments against trans kids in schools make about ZERO sense when applied to transsexuals, but exactly match the behavior or CDs.
So if you really think about it, if CD kids are being encouraged incorrectly to transition, it's not the affirming people who are primarily responsible, but the ones who are not affirming, because they try to block behavior that's typical for CDs.
Food for thought, anyway.
So, you get 1000 kids from that percentage? That doesn't even make sense. The total kids surveyed was 8500, 34.8% of that is exactly 2958. Lookup Duncan Matthews LGBT Activist, he goes in depth how the figure was calculated. And I'm not arguing the facts with you anymore!Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
Tamara - the survey only claims 1.2% of the kids are transgender. 34.8% of the kids surveyed being transgender would make no sense whatsoever... I mean, I'll go back and re-read the paper - but it would be pretty incredible if 34.8% of the kids surveyed identified as transgender and were out. I believe the entire survey sample was 8500. The numbers (32 and 60) in front of the percentages (34.8 and 65.2) were the numbers of kids who identified as transgender, and who answered either "yes, I have disclosed being transgender" or "no, I have not disclosed being transgender". I mean no disrespect, but 2958 transgender kids out of a survey of 8500 would mean that 34.8% of the kids in Auckland were transgender. That would simply be an incredible thing if true! I mean no disrespect, but I simply don't understand how you reach your conclusions... Are we looking at the same paper?
There are roughly 260,000 school age kids in Auckland, if I remember correctly. 1.2% of that - what the survey claimed, would be roughly 3000 kids - what was claimed in the article and by others in this thread. If 34.8% of the 1.2% of kids are out - as listed in the survey data I quoted - that would be roughly 1000 kids who are out as transgender in Auckland. I hope this clarifies what I assume the survey is saying. These numbers make significantly more sense to me than the notion that 34.8% of the children in Auckland are transgender - which is what the numbers you posted seem to suggest to me. Please pardon me if I am misunderstanding you.
edit 2 - I looked for Duncan Matthews, LGBT activist, and really could only find two references, both essentially to the same brief article you linked. My search engine fu is not the best, but I feel pretty sure the survey data they reference is the one I linked from the Journal of Adolescent Health from July 2014 - The Health and Well-Being of Transgender High School Students: Results From the New Zealand Adolescent Health Survey (Youth'12).
Re-read the survey data - the tables make this very clear.
The survey questions regarding disclosure were only counted for students who responded that they identify as transgender, which represented 1.2% of the total kids surveyed. Of that 1.2%, 34.8% had disclosed. So approximately 0.4% of the total survey group are out as trans, aka 32 students out of 8166 surveyed.
That's certainly my reading of it Zooey, and 0.4% being out as trans is in the ballpark of estimates here in the states. This is why I asserted that 3000 out trans students seemed specious. I mean, the ones who aren't out can't exactly be seeking attention, since they haven't told anyone yet, other than an anonymous survey, right?
I am posting a link where you can download a pdf which gives information on the survey.
https://www.fmhs.auckland.ac.nz/asse...2-overview.pdf