Some of you think I was asking "why" and this was not the focus of this thread.
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Originally Posted by
Asche
Can anyone tell me why "I think that women's clothes are nicer" isn't a perfectly reasonable explanation? If someone tells you they like collecting stamps, or skiing, or playing guitar, do you normally demand some explanation in terms of psychological complexes or something? Or do you simply accept that people have different tastes and different interests, and that some people may find certain things deeply fullfilling that you cannot appreciate in the slightest? Why is what people like to wear somehow not subject to the same laws of diversity?
A generation ago, "reasonable" people were asking the same sort of pathologizing questions about gay people. No one (except other gay people) could understand why anyone would be sexually attracted to members of their own sex other than as a consequence of some deep psychological disturbance or miswiring or something. And gay people who grew up in that environment, in which "I like it" was not an acceptable answer, often came up with all kinds of convoluted theories to justify what they liked. Now that being gay is not seen as quite so sick and perverted as it was when I was young, I see more gay people simply saying, "this is what I like, this is how I am." Which I think is a lot healthier.
Sorry it took so long to get back to you.
First, I'm not pathologizing anyone.
Second, you compare a preference for crossdressing to a number of other activities: collecting stamps, skiing, playing guitar, painting, cataloging earthworms, and climbing a mountain. I dare say that all genders do these things including transpersons, except the crossdressing. Only crossdressers crossdress. :) None of the other activities are hidden from employers, wives, children, neighbors, friends, and community members.
Third, you mention gay men. I agree, there's nothing wrong with being a gay man. A generation ago and still today, a reasonable answer to "Why do you like men" would be, "Because I'm homosexual. Homosexual men are same-sex attracted. I was born this way and it is part of who I am".
If the crossdressers who explain the CDing with "They don't make men's clothes in the colors and fabrics that I like to wear" were to answer the question, "Why do you like to wear women's clothes" just as honestly, then they might see what I'm trying to get at.
Maybe you, Asche, do fall between the genders and since you've never lived inside anyone else's skin, I'm sure that wearing women's clothes is a natural thing to do. This is understandable. Maybe you think that a man who prefers to cross the gender barriers by wearing the feminine clothing that he was socialized to believe is taboo (I bet you didn't wear girl's clothes in high school), that in many marriages causes it's downfall, that causes people to lose jobs (would you ever go to a job interview dressed?), that many members in this community keep either deeply closeted or hidden from a select group of people such as their bosses, kids, friends, extended family members, if not their wives, is no more indicative of his inner gender identity than preferring all of the other activities that you mention in your post. But I honestly think there is something deeper than just a preference for fabrics and colors.
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Originally Posted by
Asche
Since I cannot for the life of me understand what it means to have a "masculine side" or a "feminine side," there must be some deeper reason why people talk about their "feminine side." It must be a rationalization. My theory is that, since we live in a society in which it is unthinkable for a man to do certain things that society says are for women only, such as wearing pantyhose or skirts, the only way a man who has internalized this attitude can deal with a strong desire to do some "for women only" thing is to imagine that he is two persons: a "male" one that does all the proper male things, and a "female" one that, being female, is allowed to do those "for women only" things. (Saying he has a "male side" and a "female side" is another way of expressing the same process.)
I can speak with reasonable authority of my SO's crossdressing. He did start out many years ago constructing a separate female identity. I'm guessing it was the only way that he could reasonably give himself permission, as a man, to do what she wanted to do. But over time and with lots of self-examination, my SO integrated him/herself and how s/he is always the same person internally no matter how he's dressed. It's just a question of feeling more feminine sometimes, and more masculine at other times. This is why my SO identifies as dualgender, and not a male who dresses because he can't find his favorite colors and fabrics among male clothing.
I support my SO 110%. But, s/he doesn't tell me that she has a closet full of women's clothes because she prefers the colors and the fabrics they come in. Dressing makes her feel good. She likes to present as a woman, she likes to feel feminine, dressing allows her to express a part of herself that she didn't feel she was allowed to express while she was growing up, and she is well aware that she does NOT have the same gender identity as the men that he works with, his male friends, or the 97%-99% of the male population that have absolutely no interest, and who in fact have an aversion to wearing feminine clothing. The need to dress is part of my SO, just as much as same-sex attraction is part of a homosexual man's identity. And further, my SO is not transsexual and she does not identify as a woman.
That said, there are a significant number of crossdressers who dress for fetish reasons rather than identity reasons. So if it's fetish for you and others, that's OK too! But if it is, then saying "I do it because I like the colors and the fabrics" is misleading,
Another good topic some day, but not for this thread, would be to examine what exactly is at the root of fetish crossdressing. What, exactly, causes a man to become sexually aroused at the thought of being a woman. Many fetish crosdressers will say that their male identity is intact, but sometimes I wonder. :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asche
I see more gay people simply saying, "this is what I like, this is how I am." Which I think is a lot healthier.
No. They say, "This is WHO I am". Why can't the crossdressers who say they dress because men's clothes don't come in the colors and fabrics they like, say the same? There's nothing pathological about saying "This is who I am". It's just being honest. In fact, let's reverse this with a question. If you don't like to say that it is a part of you, then maybe you are ashamed of being cross-gender, and maybe deep down you feel that it is somehow wrong to identify this way?
Please don't get irritated with me for asking this. Please remember that we are having a discussion, it doesn't change who you are, and I am merely discussing and asking questions. :hugs: