this is an idea right out of the "I'm strait" crossdresser handbook and not the bi or gay ranks
its virtual porn for them, if they cant find a submissive woman they create a fantasy one and can see and alter the fantasy from both sides.
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Um, only the submissive ones and they don't feel or pretend to feel like women. Gay men really enjoy being men, with their penises and whatnot.
I have long thought that there were some serious patriarchal undertones on this site, but what else would you expect from an overwhelming majority of straight men. I am only surprised that nobody has complained about it in at least 6 months.
Was it offensive? Hell yeah, but no more so than the insistent desire to put women on a pedestal that pervades this forum. Just sayin'
i've been with both and i find things interesting with both, that i don't call myself anything other dressed or not, i find interesting, i still like doing the dishes in a dress better
What i said was that "in my head" a man that is dominating over me, makes me feel weaker and more feminine. If i didnt feel that way i would not be allowing him to "dominate me", in my submission I show myself to be weaker and "not as manly as him" and "in my head" consequently more feminine than him ! I am not a "crossdresser" i have been diagnosed with klinefelters syndrom and ahve been TS all of my life.
I'm glad you appreciated it, and I also thank Reine for her honorary woman card :), however...
Let's not meet disparaging thoughts about groups with more disparaging thoughts about groups. The point is that being submissive or dominant has nothing to do with one's gender or sexuality. There are gay and bi men who are very dominant, and there are cisgendered men who are submissive. I have a friend here in LA who works as a dominatrix, and out of curiosity I recently asked her how many of her clients were into the "sissy" or "forced feminization" stuff, and she said only one. And, based on that example, there are women who are very dominant, just as there are women who are very submissive.Quote:
Maybe bi or gay men feel this way but I don't know any healthy minded women that do.
And what I said was "in your head" are some pretty negative views on what it mean to be feminine. I've never seen femininity to be about weakness or being submissive and dominated. But you do. You're not the first person on this forum to share that sentiment and you won't be the last, and you will likely make a group of friends on here who totally get it and bond with you. But it comes up enough and it makes me wince every time it does that this time I decided I should just say something about it. Now I have and we can move on.
Dont listen to them. We live in a PC era where anything male is wrong and acknowledging differences between genders is wrong.
Like it or not most women like a strong dominant man to make them feel safe, protected, secure and feminine. On average women are smaller and weaker than men. Its in their instincts to prefer alpha males as they insure her survival. All studies show the taller muscular man gets more sexual partners. Women love the contrast between themselves and their muscular hunk.
Yes all studies. And you have evidence in that males are on average taller than females because of female sexual selection. Women prefer smaller, weaker, submissive men? If so they would not survive. Girl only following her instincts as a female. They will always remain. A man is a man and woman is a woman. We are very different in our needs and what turns us on in the oppossite gender.
That's a stereotypical view and not the reality.
Here's a definition of stereotype: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype
Excerpt:
You and Sissy Michelle are stuck in a limited view that women are or "should be" weak and submissive, while men are strong and dominant. It's fine for you if you prefer to engage in this sort of mental fetish, but to suggest that this is the case for most everyone is totally inaccurate. A desire to be "dominated" sexually has absolutely NOTHING to do with gender.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereotype
I, for one, am in an equal relationship with my partner, and I can say that the majority of the women that I know are as well. In every relationship, partners each have their strengths and weaknesses.
Please stop ascribing your own fetish views on everyone else. :rolleyes:
I appreciate your opinions *seanmuscle.
To me its quite obvious too, and there are many medical & scientific reports that quite simply confirm that a male is naturally Masculine and dominant in nature ( The hunter ) and that the female is weaker and feminine in nature ( The nurturers ). I have NEVER said that this was a negative thing, infact i think it is a wonderful thing.
Negitivity is quite often put on it by "banner wavers" and people who need to get out more and have a hobby.
Apart from that, everybody has their own experiences and thoughts which of course is fine. We live in an ever expanding world of acceptance and openess regarding sexuality and lifestyle and we should accept and acknowledge that people have different emotions and experiences. I verbalized how i felt at certain times and i stand by that, and see no wrong in explaining how i felt.
Ok, I am from Scandinavia and English is not my first language so possibly I could have written things in a better way, but the result would be the same.
It was quite funny that someone mentioned a "DOMINATRIX" as i am VERY good friends with one of the most famous ones in Europe, a lady who has modelled also for some of the worlds top fetish artists and i know for a fact that the larger part of her mails from people are on the subject of forced feminization together with humiliation and submission :)
ReineD
"You and Sissy Michelle are stuck in a limited view that women are or "should be" weak and submissive, while men are strong and dominant. It's fine for you if you prefer to engage in this sort of mental fetish, but to suggest that this is the case for most everyone is totally inaccurate. A desire to be "dominated" sexually has absolutely NOTHING to do with gender."
I think you need to read my post again and tell me where it says that women "should be submissive" ? and "Jive turkeys" needs to re read my post where it supposedly says that i say that being feminine "is being weak".
What i said was that it made me feel weak.........AND feminine ! .....really "ladies"....isnt there anything on TV this evening! ???
A famous European Domme who models for top fetish artists and whose prospects are men who seek forced feminization? LOL. Do you really think this reflects how women like myself (and most women I know) view ourselves sexually?
And no, you didn't say that women "should" be submissive. This is what you actually said (bold type is my emphasis):
If this is not your definition of feminity, then please enlighten us as to what you really meant. :)
Don't get me wrong, you have every right to seek any sexual relationship you want. No one objects to this. But Ryan, Momarie, myself and I'm sure others do become weary when we read the popular sentiment in this forum (it's not just you) that feelings of submission (characterized by wanting to feel helpless, used, and dominated as you said) should be associated with femininity. This is not true in the real world, just in yours, because your needs are fetish/fantasy based.
A sexual desire for submission has nothing to do with gender. You are a CDer and you associate it with gender, maybe dressing is a way you can give yourself permission to do this, but there are men in the BDSM community who seek sexual submission without needing or wanting to become feminized. And there are CDers who do not seek sexual submission or forced feminization.
I know I'm repeating myself, but submission has nothing to do with gender or femininity!
Things I've learned from this thread:
1. Being bi cannot be context sensitive. If you are bi, you must be attracted to each sex always and everywhere the same. If you are only attracted to men when en femme, you are really gay and in denial. The times you are attracted to women don't count.
2. You can be a sexually submissive male OR you can be transgendered, but you can't be submissive AND transgendered because that would mean you hate women.
3. Femininity and masculinity are NOT socially constructed sexual stereotypes (!!!) but merely the equivalent of sexual identity. If I identify as a woman then any quality I have is femimine by definition as long as it is a "positive" quality. If I identify as a man then any quality is masculine. Otherwise there is no difference. Of course, this only applies to attributes we consider to be positive; "negative" attributes like submissiveness have no gender.
LOL!
I happen to be one of those men that serves a Dominant woman. I have been a CD long before I even knew about BDSM or gave it a thought. The Dominant woman that I serve is not the stereo-typical dominatrix most think of when they think of a dominant woman.
I discovered that I wanted a woman that was my equal in everyday life but leads our relationship and commands my total respect and submission to her. Her wants and needs come before my own. I am far from submissive in my everyday life and business world. But to the one woman I love, I am all hers. I look up to her, admire herstrengtht on so many levels. It has nothing at all to do with what I'm wearing.
I too am angered at the stereo-typical view so many arrogant males have about women somehow being weaker and something less then equal to man. I'll gladly turn in my man card before I would ever think of women as weak, needy, submissive play toys that some of these Neanderthals think women are to them. Yes, my SO makes me feel submissive. But it has nothing to do with the way I'm dressed. I goes far beyond the bedroom. I submit to her out of love and respect, not for the games many think of when thinking about a man submitting to woman.
LilSissyStevie - All I can possibly say is "you have got to be kidding".
You may want to go back and read all of Sean's posts before you decide you want him to be a champion for your cause.
There's medical and scientific reports on how human beings behave in nature? I'd love to see some of these reports as I'm fairly certain humans have been living in society for ten thousand years or more. Where are these humans living free of captivity that these medical and scientific students were able to get these definitive reports? Unless you mean non-human animals in nature, of which the roles of the sexes vary from species to species, lionesses for example do the hunting, and dogs tend to be as aggressive regardless of the sex.Quote:
To me its quite obvious too, and there are many medical & scientific reports that quite simply confirm that a male is naturally Masculine and dominant in nature ( The hunter ) and that the female is weaker and feminine in nature ( The nurturers ). I have NEVER said that this was a negative thing, infact i think it is a wonderful thing.
Furthermore, would love to see some of these reports from the animal kingdom where females who are nurturers also fulfill a submissive, toy-like sexual role for their mates, as opposed to having sexual intercourse for the purposes of reproduction, as scientists often say the only animals that have sex for pleasure are humans, dolphins, and bonobo apes.
Now, I won't disagree that men do tend to be physically stronger than women. What I do disagree with is that this has any correlation to the argument that femininity is then by definition a submissive/weak counterpoint to that. First off, men tend to be larger because historically men have been more likely to be laborers and soliders. This *societal* classification has led to centuries of breeding stock that have left men the way they are today. How much of this has to do with human nature as an animal and how much of it has to do with socialization is tough to determine, however considering the success of the women's lib movement, and the writings of women in the centuries leading up to it in addition to the powerful female historical figures who managed to break through the prevailing patriarchy, suggest that the submissive role thrust upon women through history doesn't mesh with the actual nature of the human female.
You really can't understand why we might have an issue with the idea that it is humiliating to be forced into a feminine role? Ok, so a lot of guys are "into" that. Well, since there's no rule that says a large group of people can't all collectively have a viewpoint that is illogical or misguided, I fail to see the point you're making here, especially when combined with:Quote:
It was quite funny that someone mentioned a "DOMINATRIX" as i am VERY good friends with one of the most famous ones in Europe, a lady who has modelled also for some of the worlds top fetish artists and i know for a fact that the larger part of her mails from people are on the subject of forced feminization together with humiliation and submission :)
So which is it? Is it that feeling weak and feminine to you are two separate feelings that happen simultaneously with no direct connection, or is it that feminization is combined with feeling humiliated and submissive? You can't have it both ways, you can't say that being humiliated, or being seen as weak or overpowered by a man and submitting makes you feel feminine and then say that to you being feminine doesn't mean weak/submissive and worthy of humiliation.Quote:
What i said was that it made me feel weak.........AND feminine !
Early on in this thread I thought of contributing, but geez! This has turned into a very bizarre back and forth. For those that believe women are naturally submissive, I give the examples of: my mother, my wife, my daughter and the vast majority of those women I've met through the years. My observations are merely anecdotal, but I have been around many years and have known a great many women (not like that!).
It has been my life observations that there are dominant and submissive tendencies in both sexes, neither gender has a corner of the market for either tendency. My observations on the board indicate the cd population is a mix of hetero, bi and homosexuals - don't forget those that aren't sure what they are, sexually. I have never felt the need to generalize gender, sexuality and dominance; the population like any true population mixes and matches and jumbles the variations. I see no difference in the forum population.
I'm not really sure if I said what I wanted to or even remember what points I wanted to make, I just know I had to say something reading the posts was extremely frustrating!
Julie
I think there's a lot of "Well, this is what I've experienced, so this is how it must be for everyone else." There are a few people here, and we all know who they are, that have a very aged view of masculinity, femininity, gender roles, etc.
One of these people has also stated that if you have a penis you are a man and if you have a vagina, you are a woman. It's hard for me to put any weight in anything this person says because their views are so harshly stereotypical and about 30 years too old.
Male might correlate with masculinity and female may correlate with femininity. But in today's world, where we all live now, it doesn't really matter. Women no longer have to rely on strong men to hunt and kill. Men no longer have to rely on women to raise a family. As these old ways have gone, we have seen feminine men and masculine women. We also have men and women who are feminine and dominant or masculine and submissive. You can no longer say that "this is the way it is, if you have a penis you are a man, and you are masculine and you are dominant" because the survival of our species has evolved beyond it. And none of this has anything to do with sexuality. Who you are attracted to does not make you feminine, masculine, dominant or submissive (or male or female for that matter).
But no amount of arguing is going to convince them otherwise because they are locked into their old-timey views.
Anyway...
I consider myself straight, but I'm not hard set on these labels. I would probably have sex with a woman I was attracted enough to, and I wouldn't rule out a relationship with a woman... but men are my first choice and the only choice I really seek out. But I've been with my man for a while now, so for me, this is all moot anyway.
I may have had to live with testosterone for 25 years, but with all that poison out of my system I'm still pretty gosh darned dominant. Sexually, I'm probably pretty well balanced, but if I had to choose, I would lean more towards the submissive side. After SRS I'll really be able to figure this out.
This really isn't what the original poster is asking because they are asking about crossdressing and bisexuality, where I identify as a woman. But this thread is sooooo of track, I think pretty much anyone can throw in their two cents and it wouldn't really matter anyway.
It's an interesting thread though and it's caused me to ask a lot more questions of myself.
Not that I've been able to answer them, but still... :P
THAT'S what you learned from the thread?
1. Context sensitive? I tend to be more "affectionate" when I drink, so am I ****ty or is that context sensitive as well?
2. Well, if you're saying that being submissive makes you FEEL like a woman than you may not hate them but you sure as hell don't understand them. Sex, clothes and perfume don't make anybody feel like a woman except a woman.
3. Who said being submissive is negative? I think the only quality deemed negative in this thread is delusion, and that applies to men AND women Trans or otherwise.
I think a lot of you are taking what other people say way too personal. This thread is so far off track. Really, there must be better things to do than argue back and forth over this. I can't even bear to read past one or two points/counter point posts after a while, because it is all just too silly and a waste of time.
I rather enjoy being bi.
The topic of femininity as it relates to bisexuality is not off topic. There are different reasons for bisexuality among CDers.
As to taking things personally, I see nothing but an exchange of opinions here. This is a discussion forum after all. It is not a stretch for some of our members including myself to point out that femininity is not characterized by "submission, weakness, helplessness, and feeling used and dominated", contrary to an oft-expressed sentiment in this forum. Such views are pure fetish/fantasy and it is not my impression the OP started this thread as an encouragement for fantasy responses.