GG:s dress in mans clothing all the time and know one say a thing.We dress in woman clothing and we get hell and are call all kind of names . WHY
SALLY:2c:
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GG:s dress in mans clothing all the time and know one say a thing.We dress in woman clothing and we get hell and are call all kind of names . WHY
SALLY:2c:
Hmmmm, I go out dressed all the time and never get hell. I talk with complete strangers and have wonderful conversations, I have had only one catcall, mild too, in over 4 years of going out wherever I want. It is not just because I live in a tolerant area. Read some of the posts here and us "girls" go out all across the US and UK with minimal or no problems. The women can do it and men cannot argument is a very old one here. Why complain about others? Just live your life as best you can and enjoy it. Men have issues because we are not out on the public enough to help others get used to a man in femme clothing. When that happens a lot more, people will be more tolerant.
I can remember when comedians used to make jokes about women wearing pants. It was not commonly done in those days. If you go further back to the 19th century when George Sand used to appear in male garb it was thought shocking. Over time, women in men's clothing has become accepted. Perhaps someday men in women's clothing will be more accepted by the general public.
Hi Fungril, I dress and go out quite regularly and have never had a bad experience....BUT, I am presenting en femme with hair and make up etc (not passable in our speak, but I do OK).
GG's dont generally dress in mens clothing, they wear pants that are designed for them......and whether we like it or not, the general population are perfectly comfortable with seeing GG's in jeans, or a pant suit. That same general public, although aware or our existance are generally not used to seeing males in skirts. We are considered crossdressers, GG's in pants are not. Just my :2c:
I am surprised at how few people notice or react how I dress. I am always respectful of others and think I am treated the same way.
Because those women aren't trying to present as men. A user on another forum I frequent got caught dressing up as a man and actually did get shit from her/his family.
Sally, maybe because presenting as a woman is heaven.
Dear fun,Quote:
Originally Posted by fungril
This question is so old it has cobwebs on it.
The answer is:
Women don't try to look like men when they wear pants. They are just women in pants.
Crossdressing men USUALLY try to look like women when they wear women's cothes. THAT'S why society gives them grief.
But really, dear, VERY few people give much of a rat's behind WHAT you wear. Dress nice (not ****ty), be polite, SMILE, and few others will care.
S
Next time you see a woman doing that... Call her a pervert!! And chase her down the street..
Even if they were..... which they aren't... Two wrongs don't make a right! Didn't you mom tell you that? If your like me you were not paying attention... Too busy going through her lingerie drawers! Lol.
Is this question conjecture or peronal experience? I will hazard a guess, conjecture!
start going out dressed and THEN come back and ask the question if it is true for you, I doubt it will be unless you live somewhere REAL backwoods then we may never hear from you again : P
Women have spent decades winning the right to wear trousers as they think they are comfortable and practical... and women's trousers and jeans probably are...
For many things I do in life trousers/jeans work best... but skirts are so much more comfortable.
As to public opinion... we haven't won that right yet... and I doubt we will. My wife loves skirts in the summer, but wears jeans/trouser mostly year round... she doesn't see any gender issues in what she wears... but if I wear a skirt... different story!
Best not to go "there" my friend. In any case anyone who calls me a name will obviously get a fat lip.:)
Simple. Because they aren't trying to appear masculine or emulate a male; when women dress in male clothing, it's most often to do some kind of work, not for appearances sake. We, on the other hand, usually go out of our way to appear feminine as possible when we dress up. You'll note that women who wear men's clothing still wear female underwear. We go to great lengths to wear female underwear as well as jewelry, make up, and do our hair like a girl as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by fungril
What if there was no difference and men felt comfortable in dresses and heels and hose just as women with pants?
It would take all the fun out it, IMHO. Where would the thrills be then? There would be no point to CDing any more. As a fetish/hobbyist fairweather CD, I'd hate for all the fun to be drained out by some unisex clothing future....
Best,
SS
Second thought - Try this thought experiement - Bring a brightly colored flower print fabric to a mens suit maker and get a nicely fitted suit made. In which mode will you get more wierd looks, in guy mode in your new suit or en femme in a nice tasteful sheath or skirt suit made from the same fabric?
I agree with everything except for the last part. If crossdressing men didn't try to look like women, and just wore women's clothes, they'd likely get just as much, or even more grief than they do going the whole hog. I've never had any comments from anyone when out fully girled up, but I can almost guarantee you if I just went out in guy mode wearing a skirt, I'd get all sorts of stares and comments. Hell, I get comments when in full guy mode if I wear something slightly out of the norm. Maybe I just live in an area where people are more likely to comment. Btw, I'm mostly talking about guys aged 14-20 here when I talk about the people who comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephenie S
Anyway, that's almost irrelevant to the topic. Guys will be able to wear girls clothes in a similar fashion to girls wearing guys ones, when enough guys start doing it in numbers so as to make it mainstream and normal. I can't see it happening though, because we'd need the help of non-crossdressing men, as we simply don't have the numbers. If it became a normal thing, it might be harder for us to actually crossdress in future. I sometimes think that we MtF, have it a lot better then FtM, because we have such a wide range of female-only items to choose from.
Dear me, I babbled on a bit. :)
Edit: and skirtsuit already said what I said at the end. D'oh. Mental note: read every reply.
Come now. Skirts and dresses are the "domain" or "Women". Dress slacks and skinny jeans are items that they have chosen to take into that domain.
For those who are old enough, the sight of a woman in a mans dress shirt (and 'nothing else') was considered erotic. Never has a man in a 'woman's attire' been presented as erotic.
So, getting back to male clothing on females, it was a sexual "revolution" that brought it about.
As I grew up, we were bussed to school. The girls were permitted to wear jeans to and from school, but were required to change into a skirt or dress once there. This was a safety precaution in the winter in the event that the bus "broke down" on the rural roads. This was in the days before phones were portable in any way. If it didn't have a cord, it wouldn't work.
Because women (GG) have anti discrimination laws and we (CD/TV/TG/TS/MtF/FtM) don't...... yet.
I'm fairly new to going out dressed but I haven't had an experience that could be described as "catching Hell." I've experienced a few teen giggles but I don't really know if they were because they thought I was male or because I was 6'2" tall.
This question might be old and have cobwebs on it BUT!!!! It still angers me. I'd like to just wear my female clothes outside the house and not present myself as being female. For me it is truely the clothes that I love not being female or presting myself as female. Unfortunatly in order for me to go out dressed I must present myself as being female in order to avoid any fallout.
So thinking with that in mind GG's do get away with wearing clothes marketed for men in public without any flack. If I was to put a top and leggings on and run to the mini mart you can bet i'd get all kinds of flack. The many names i'd be called are countless and very hurtful.
Just to add my wife shops in the mens section for her clothes according to her the mens section has a better selection. I disagree with her and tell her that the womens section is the better selection BTW she knows I dress and fully supports me I dress at home all the time.
Many GG's are not wearing women's clothes that are "styled like men's clothes". I see numerous GG's shopping in the men's section, both in regular clothing stores and in the SallyAnn. And they are not buying for someone else, otherwise they would not be trying the clothes on. Also, many obviously are wearing men's clothes while shopping.
Wow! I'm surprized this thread has lasted this long. Well, if you have to know, there are two "gendered" styles of clothing. Female and unisex. Women can wear both styles without raising an eyebrow but men can only wear the unisex style or they are "crossdressers." That's just the way it is.
VERY RARLY do I see woman wearing "clothes marketed for men"! when are you guys going to wake up and realize the days of woman wearing skirts and dresses exclusively are LONG GONE. Woman wear pants marketed to woman they are cut to a woman's figure the zipper is shorter and usually the pockets are useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by bredalee25
until you go out and TRY wearing your femme clothing in public then you have no reason to whine! there is a member here who says he goes out in skirts and dresses all the time without makeup or wig or any attempt to pass as a woman without problems!
Yes, it's an age-old question, but then again, who ever said that life was fair? On the other hand, we get to pee standing up, are not afflicted with periods, don't get cellulite or bunions, and are still often paid better for equivalent work. It all works out in the long run...;)
But more to the point, whatever advantages women appear to have - no one ever handed those out to them on a silver platter; they had to fight tooth and nail for every advancement. Whether it was the right to vote, not be considered their husband's property, getting equal pay for equal work, or yes - even the "right" to wear pants and other typical male attire - they had to convince a predominantly male establishment that they should be entitled to these things as well. Of course, the pendulum now has swung in the direction of women asking for even more as their confidence and sense of entitlement starts to go beyond mere equality, and it's now the men who are playing "catch up".
So here's the deal - rather that whine about the unfairness of it all, we need to take a page from the women's' playbook and do exactly what they have done to assert our "right" to wear women's clothing or masculinized (read:unisex) versions of the same thing without guilt or shame.
When I go out as "Leslie", I make a point of dressing better and more put together than 90% of the GG's that I run into in the malls, on the streets, and in the restaurants etc. Do I get read? - sure I do, from time to time. But I also like to think that I am read less as simply a "man in a dress" and more as a "Wow! Is that really a man in a dress? He looks great and has an amazing fashion sense. I wish I had legs like that, or could walk in heels as well as he does! I clearly need to step up my game..." That's empowerment, and that's acceptance, and it's a mindset that women have had for some time now, but we were always too privileged or too spoiled in our "man's world" to ever notice that.
But when it comes to wearing women's clothing, the shoe (or rather, the pump :heehee:) is on the other foot, and we need to grow a pair and assert ourselves just as women have had to do in the past to to get their due.
So suck it up, ladies, "own" your crossdressing, and resolve to never again allow anyone to try to embarrass you or guilt you out for simply expressing this important part of yourselves - just as the guy (or gal) with the multiple tattoos or piercings does, and who also doesn't give a rat's @ss what others may think of their particular fashion statement.
Good points, skirtsuit, but clearly you've never heard of iconic NHL hockey sports commentator Don Cherry ;) :Quote:
Originally Posted by skirtsuit
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mul...content.5.html
Wearing these outlandish sports jackets has become his "schtick" over the years for whatever reason, and his fans just lap it up. And Don is as "macho" - to the point of almost being homophobic - as it gets. Go figure...
I think this topic has been done to death before...but hey...
perhaps this may solve something for you Fungril
Women who wear pants & polo shirts have no thought of gender when they choose their clothing. Men who wear dresses, and women's pants & polo shirts do. It's as simple as that.:D:battingeyelashes:
answer the question... I note that some of the posters here have it right.
This thread should be a sticky, so we don't have to keep having this conversation every two weeks. :straightface:
You're new, but you need to know this is a tired, and wholly inaccurate argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by fungril
We are now in 2011, not 1911. Times have changed and sorry, but you need to catch up. Women who wear pants purchased in women's stores do not dress in men's clothing. They are wearing clothes designed for them and that fit their curves. Transmen who buy their clothes in men's stores do wear men's clothing, and if you ask them, they'll tell you that society doesn't look all too kindly at them either.
lmao sophie.... exactly ya cracked me up...... just wish some would get on the same page and stop floggin a dead horse :lol: :lol2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophie86
and yes Reine its 2011 not 1911.....
I was at the stable where we keep my daughter's horse this past Thursday. There was a woman vet there who was working with one of the other horses. She was wearing saggy blue jeans, a sloppy button up shirt, and had her hair cut rather short. Her shape was not curvy. She was definitely not a transman, even though her mannerisms are somewhat masculine. I didn't ask her whether she was a lesbian. Both her assistant and the owner of the stable (a woman who also tends to wear masculine clothing, even though she's married) behaved very naturally around her. They had no problem with how she presents herself.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
Sitting here thinking about it, I believe the reason why women can dress that way without comment--especially an older woman like her-- is because they are seen as being asexual, whereas a man who dresses as a woman is seen as hyper-sexual.
^^ I want that theory in the sticky. :cool:
So while I hate to rehash a topic that's been discussed a thousand times here with seemingly no one listening, I still see a lot more women who wear pants that were probably intended for men than men who wear skirts.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
Which brings me to my real answer to the question. Women who wear pants, even men's pants, aren't seen as pretending to be someone they're not. Why would they be? Crossdressers are seen that way, and not without reason.
Like some other members here, I've gone out in a skirt presenting as male (and not only to stereotypically queer-friendly places, either) without ever having a real problem. (Actually, if by crossdressing you mean attempting to pass as female, I've never crossdressed in my life.) So I think (and not just from my own experiences) that it's better than many people believe, if they do what is actually equivalent to what many women do.
Women don't crossdress, but some go drab.
There's no way to argue intelligently about this, since it is a matter of perception ... unless we each pledge to spend an afternoon at our respective malls and ask every woman who walks by where she bought her jeans. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by SabrinaEmily
Honestly, I live in a college town and I can tell you that the women I see on campus most definitely aren't wearing men's Levis. :)
Men we just need to get over the way the rest of the world looks at us when we dress in a dress. When your out at first it is annoying but as you feel more compertable the less i care until the next time
For men, women's department is good for tops and dresses, but the juniors section has less curvature built in to the clothes so that skirts and pants in junior sizes fit better. If you dress smartly, you should be seen as just a tall women. My SO is 5'11" and when she is with me wearing pants and ballcap, people call us gentlemen. She doesn't react and nothing more is said or noticed.:2c:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aprilrain
Who decided what clothes are "women's clothes" and what clothes are "men's clothes"? Was there a committee appointed? Who appointed them and who was on the committee? When did this happen? Why wasn't I told about it? :heehee:
Since women often wear pants, we can consider pants to be "women's clothes" if it makes us feel better. I've been wearing jeans from the women's department in women's sizes for dress jeans for several months. They look better on me but I mis the larger pockets.
Women wear T shirts so we can consider T shirts to be women's clothes. Same thing with sandals.
In the end though, people think what they want and some say what they want even when they shouldn't. I got a lot of grief when I startd wearing my hair long (like the Beatles) in the mid 60s.
Everytime I have been out dressed I have had a beard. I still got compliments from GGs. Billie Jean
OK ... here's another thought.
If women who wear pants (or jeans) are wearing men's clothes, then surely the CDs who wear such items, no matter if purchased in a women's clothing store, are also wearing men's clothes and are therefore not expressing their inner femininity? They are not crossdressed? :D
I think most here have answered your question very well. I think we all must understand that the first purpose of clothing is for protection that's the main reason .. In time clothing has grown to not just only protection but sexual appeal between the sexes as many here find use in, when emulating. So its not the clothing that disturbs society it is the signal you send out ,men expressing fem ,females expressing masc. Bible thumpers and biggots or people who just hate for no apparent reason other than their life must really suck ,feel threatened to those of us who feel the need to express.
Don't think that women who do express receive welcome arms when doing so , dating one who does express, I now see first hand how cruel people can be .
Sometimes they can if it is TOO manly -- they are accused of being butch or something
I'm assuming that when you say "get hell" you're actually taking about (in a general sense) why men wearing women's clothes is looked upon differently than women wearing men's clothes. Like Sometimes_Miss says, when women wear guys clothes it's not done in the same way (trying to pass) it's more of a fashion choice or a work related thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by sometimes_miss
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think what you are also alluding to is the double standard, but then that's there because we still live in a male privileged world. As long as our society continues to view women as inferior to men, (especially at the higher levels of control in the world) for a lot of men, any effort to teach boys to be feminine will be condemned as degrading to boys. The social and gender hierarchy dictates that when a woman dresses in a way that is perceived to be masculine it's not considered a problem because she's going "up the scale". However, when a man dresses in a way that is perceived to be feminine it is a problem because (especially amongst other men) he's lowering himself because in their eyes dressing feminine is being less of a man, and being less of a man is considered a bad thing. In other words if you are male then there is an expection that you show a certain level of masculininty. That, IMHO, is the real reason why (as you put it) we "get hell" if we want to dress and present as the opposite sex. :2c:
Aprilrain had you read my post and understood what It's meaning was you'd know pants are not what i'm talking about. How many times have you seen or heard about a GG wearing mens shirts and short skirts. Even shania twain did it in her video of man i feel like a woman which has the lyric mens shirts and short skirts in the song. So don't try to tell me woman don't wear clothes marketed for men.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aprilrain
It is 2011, not 1911, but, if I had a time machine, I might choose 1911! Very good comments Rachel Morley, too.That seems to be the case.
Perhaps this topic is an attempt at self justification by people that have some of their own issues with crossdressing. "It's okay that I do this, because those people over there are doing it too"
I don't see too many women wearing men's pants. I do however see lots of women wearing Women's pants. I see how this is complicated, but we live in a world where women have their own pants. Or perhaps I'm just being cynical and commenting in a thread I see repeated over and over and over........:brolleyes:
A guy wearing womens trousers is MtFtM crossdressing, which is not the same as wearing mans trousers.
It is interesting, as an aside, how much nice womens clothing is derived directly from menswear. I have been lusting over high heeled loafers lately to go nicely with a tweed skirt suit. Is that also MtFtM CDing?
Best,
SS
I wear womens pants/jeans all the time now and no one says anything....people either dont know or dont care....
I have no doubt most of them aren't. Nor did I claim, as some thoughtlessly do, that women wearing pants are by that fact crossdressing. But how many men do you see wearing skirts as men? Almost certainly even fewer than women wearing men's pants.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
(I don't think either is crossdressing, since I don't consider it crossdressing unless one is actually trying to pass as the other sex.)
Also, it bears repeating that I have gone out in a skirt while presenting as male, many times, and not just to specifically queer-friendly places, and I've never gotten anything resembling hell for it. So I'm not convinced of the truth of this thread's premise.
^ Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you said you saw more women wearing men's pants than women's pants.
Yes, I do agree there are more women who wear women's pants than men who wear man-skirts. I think if there were as many men wanting to wear skirts as there were women who wanted to wear pants in the 40s and 50s, then there would likely be a style revolution among men's clothing. So the issue, I think, is there just aren't enough of you to make a strong impact.
Men and women generally do want to differentiate themselves. So, even if the majority of men got tired of wearing constraining pants, and the idea of wearing man-skirts did take off, the man-skirt styles would still be vastly different than women's skirts. And so how many CDs in this forum and everywhere else would be satisfied with wearing man-skirts? I'm venturing a guess that most would refuse to wear them, and would still rather cross the gender clothing barrier by wearing skirts styled for women. So, the issues would still not be any different than they are now.
I think instead we need to work on laws that recognize transgender rights, better education in schools about gender variance and more positive exposure in the media. But, this does require some degree of activism that I think few people here are willing to engage in, since they are so deeply in the closet.
It is a quandary. And it is unfortunate.
i just wish I had a girls wordrobe!!!! LOL!!!
Because woman are not trying to present themselves as men. Simple.
It is that, and the fact regardless that masculinity is more valued and femininity is seen as inferior; regardless of how accepting a society may be of others who are different, I still can't think of any society where this isn't true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophie86