Sounds interesting - but I can't find it!Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
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Sounds interesting - but I can't find it!Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
It's in the private Safe Haven section, which is open to TS'ers and those who feel they may be TS.
Karen Starlene :star:
I was on HRT for three months and loved every minute of it. The spiro did its thing and I never missed the ability to get it up. But my wife did. And the changes were going to make it hard for me to pass as a man so I slowly weaned off the meds for two more months. I miss the pink fog and may go back some day. If I was thirty years younger I believe I would transition. But I'm not so I'll have to settle for part time femininity. Leanne
Pink fog.
(I'm still in it, gloriously. Perfect term.)
Ummm, as the original poster, I don't think I quite see how discussions about the meaning of "male lesbian" as a term addresses the roots of the original questions ?
What an interesting thread, apart from some off-topic deviations and maybe an overzealous amount of nit-picking on a few words not core to the OP. Still an active thread for 5 months!
I don't usually come to this forum, I don't have enough time to cover all in this site that I would like. However I came on this thread by accident, or was that fate. I post in response to the original post "How do you know whether you are "transgendered" or just a crossdresser?" understanding the OP's interpretation of Transgender - distinct from TS.
There has been discussion about the journey, with wayward analogies train rides etc. There has been a few references to being caught in the middle not sure of the next step. This is the focus of my post. If you want to get in to other aspects of my post outside this scope please do so by PM so we can stay on-topic.
There is a bit of a mountain between here and the coast. The highway over the mountain is twisty and a bit dangerous. When you get to the summit, you can go down the other side and get to the coast and the beach. But you can also hang a right at the summit and travel along Summit road. My journey took me along summit road.
I am not at odds with my male body. My journey has been 15-30 years in the making, depending on what markers I use. For the past 5 months I have expressed myself with a feminine presentation - forms and clothes - 24/7. I live with several of my young adult kids. I go grocery shopping etc. On rare occasions I will drab it down for very specific occasions. I like this summit road. It is this in-between state - one without a culturally accepted description. Observers assume I am on the path to transition. I do not. Sure I could be in denial - working up to the idea. Terminology-wise I use the term transgendered to describe myself to others - as in my extended family - refining that to say it is a middle ground that is more than a crossdresser and less than transsexual. I empathise with Tess, the OP , in telling her mother. As stated in other posts, I can not say that I feel like a woman because I do not know what it feels like to be a woman. While female traits and male traits are heavily overlapped these days, there is a reasonable bell-curve of norms, and I see myself as having a strong representation from both curves.
I am not trying to prove a point to anyone else. This is my journey.
Apparently I turned right. Without doubt it is difficult even for those in this community to understand, much less the general public which includes my extended family. It IS a happy place for me. I do put effort into trying to understand it better, but not because I need to figure out the next move. Many people it seems do want to fit on one bucket or another. Certainly the general public wants to put us in one bucket or another, and apparently the psychiatric profession too. Will I need to come down from the mountain? I don't know, and I don't need to know. I like the view from here. If and when that time comes I will deal with it to the best of my ability - at that time.Quote:
Originally Posted by pruella
Carin, I kinda feel you are on that CD/TS border zone from what you describe in your fourth paragraph.
I think you are in that Intersection and the good news is you are happy there. I don't think I know anyone quite that comfortable to be male and yet female, and be happy.
The emphasis on putting a person in the CD or the TS bucket is simply because they don't fit the Androgyne bucket, definately not the TV bucket, they don't want to be a CD 'casual' but don't want to go into a transition process.
I'd love to see if we can give a label to the Intersection because I'll bet there are heaps of people who are there and feeling very confused as to what they have to do to 'fit in'
I also suspect tat Intersection is going to get very crowded in the next five years as it becomes more acceptable to be non-Op TS. (Thankfully)
Just going back say 20 years http://www.ifge.org/Article60.phtml we can hear how some TS people had a real battle to get where they wanted. With the attituds described in this article, I'm surprised there aren't more failed TS - then again, maybe there are because there are post op suicides too.
So the OP asks a question, and here the answer isn't "You have to be one or the other" because the spectrum on each of the groups varies greatly too. But they also overlap like two circles.
And it's that overlap that I think as a community we need to encourage people to feel comfortable in.
You don't have to be a CD or a TS. You can be both! One is psychological and one is phyisiological.
I'm IS and TS, why do some people, in the T community, say it's impossible. Hell why does it have to be?
These labels are such a pain. I used to think that I was just a CD, but my feelings have changed and now I don't know what I am in relation to the acronyms. I found out about "androgyne" and I think it is the best so far.
It's how YOU think of YOURSELF. There are men and there are women. While there is a wealth of commonality between the two sexes there are undeniable, important differences. And while there are always exceptions to the rule, there IS a list of differences between the way women and men think, feel, behave, act, react, emote, communicate, dress, gesture, look and sound. These characteristics are what defines the person a sbeing male or female. I would posit that the most important of these are not physical but rather mental, or emotional in nature. And that these feelings are highly correlated with gender identity in a clear cut quantitative way that is highly statistically significant.
In other words if you feel yourself to BE a woman, then you ARE a woman in the purest sense. It doesnt matter that you do not have the body of a woman. If your essence, your soul, your deepest sense of self is feminine, if that is how you know yourself to be, then that is what you ARE.
All the terminology is clear, when the srarting point is mind. And so...
Cross Dresser or Cross Dressing (CD): A neutral term that means dressing in the manner of the opposite sex.
Transvestite (TV): An individual who feels and accepts himself as a man, who sometimes likes to crossdress as a woman. And maybe even behave as a woman. But in his mind, he always knows himself to BE a man and doesnt want to change that.
Transgendered (TG): (1) A person who has an XY chromosomal genotype but who in his heart of hearts knows himself to BE overwhelmingly feminine. In fact it is a misnomer to refer to this individual as "he" or "him". You must refer to someone who moment-by-moment is self-identified as a woman, as "she" or "her", etc. This individual would automatically check off all those characteristics listed under the "Woman" heading indicated above. SHE would have an experience of self that is highly correlated with womanhood. In this persons mind, (s)he feels herself to BE a woman. (2) The reverse arguement holds true for a person who has an XX genotype but who in her heart of hearts feels herself to BE ovwewhelmingly male. By the same arguement in (1), this person IS a man, even though he has a female body.
The rest is easy, if you understand and accept the above:
Straight vs Gay vs Lesbian vs Bisexuality: People who are physically intimate (have sex with) only members of the opposite gender are straight. Usually used to indicate an XY man paired with an XX female, it is, by the above definition of TG, also entirely appropriate to describe the following as straight sex from the TG individuals pov:
(1) a TG XY man with a TG XX woman. Some would call this "role reversal" because the phenotypical male is actually the female, and the phenotypical woman takes charge as any man would. It may be "role reversal" to the naive observer but NOT to the TG's. To them they are assuming their natural roles in accordance with their internal deeply seated self identities. To them it IS straight sex.
(2) a TG XY man with a non-TG XY man: (a) from the TG's perspective this is straight sex where he is, of course, the woman; (b) from the non-TG XY mans perspective this is homosexuality which means this non-TG XY man is either gay or bisexual.
(3) a TG XX woman with a non-TG XX woman: (a) from the TG's perspective this is straight sex where she is, of course, the man; (b) from the non-TG XX womans perspective this is homosexuality which means this non-TG XX woman is either a lesbian or bisexual.
Lesbianism: Usually use to indicate a non-TG XX female being intimate with another non-TG XX female, it is, by the above definition of TG, also entirely appropriate to describe the following as lesbian sex:
(1) a TG XY man with another TG XY man: (a) even though by genotype and phenotype these appear to be two men being intimate, they are in reality, and as a matter of fact relating to each other exactly as would two non-TG XX females. And they realize this is a lesbian relationship. There is nothing gay or bisexual about it. To the uninformed observer it appears that way but that opinion is based on the superficial, least important aspect of such an interaction. Two TG XY men, are actually two women, and should be referred to as such. It is only by the cruelest trick of nature that they are forced to inhabit male architecture. It is how you perceive yourself that determines ones gender. In the province of the mind what one feels and believes to be true, IS true. Therein lies the principal determinant of ones gender identification and the nature of ones sexuality. Let there be no mistake - these are two females!
(2) a TG XY man with a non-TG XX woman: (a) from the TG XY mans perspective he (or more appropriately "she") is being intimate with ANOTHER woman, so this IS a lesbian relationship; (b) from the non-TG XX womans perspective, IF she doesnt appreciate how deeply feminine her partner is identified, this may be viewed by her as a heterosexual form of intimacy where she might describe her partner as having a "kink" where he is acting as if feminine.
(3) a non TG XX woman with a TG XX woman: (a) from the non TG XX womans pov this is lesbian sex, however she will, by definition play the passive role; (b) to the TG XX woman's perspective, this is straight sex as she sees herself as a man, having sex with a woman.
I could go on with this but I think this really should clear up the confusion. As long as you ignore the "body" and stay focused on how the individual feels themself to BE, everything falls into place - even though at first you may feel disoriented, everything I have elucidated above is fact.
It doesnt explain everything, because people are people and their self-identity can fluctuate in time. But by the definition of TG, above, the rest simply follows logically.
(OMG I hope THIS does not get deleted by a mod. It is a sober, rational, even clinical discussion pertinent to this thread AND this website in general. Ther is NOTHING titillating or prurient about the above discussion).
One last thing.
Transexual: This is a transgendered individual who has the courage, time, ability and freedom (and money) to undergo physical treatments that change his or her physical body to match the gender that individual knows themself to BE: (a) It includes a TG XY man who is on hormone therapy to change his physique, to grow natural breasts and all the other physical/emotional changes that result of a fiminine nature; (b) It includes a TG XX woman who is on testosterone therapy to change her physique to become more male-like, grow hair, grow muscle and all the other physical and emotional changes that result; (c) It includes a TG XY man who has undergone breast augmentation surgery where silicone or saline sacks are implanted to create breasts, in lieu of hormone therapy; (d) It include anyone who undergoes sex-change surgery where the genetalia are altered to look and function like the opposite sex; (e) In general, it includes anyone who is doing anything physical, by way of medicines, herbals, or mechanical means to attempt to change ones body to more closely match the opposite gender, the one they associate themselves to.
Carin,
The "intersection" talked about in this thread should be a perfectly happy place to be for those who want to be there..or those who find themselves there and feel good about it...maybe we should call you a transgendual!!!!:devil: that way you'll have a label too!!!(sarcasm off)
i think labels are just one groups way of trying to put themselves above others, or as way of getting something..if one group is viewed as better, then people will feel pressure to join that group, or they will "fight" to protect the group they are in and this creates us vs them, this is certainly true in the straight vs queer world, the queer vs tg world (ENDA anyone?), but even in our community of "gender variant" people it can be true and i think thats sad....
one day at a time as my therapist says...and kudos to you Carin, your head is on straight and you seem pretty centered and happy!!! :drink:...
If I may quibble about something here: a transsexual is anyone who is of the opposite(let's assume for arguement's sake that there are only two) mental gender than that of the body they were born with. It doesn't matter what physical changes you make or do not make. I was born transsexual. I did not become transsexual the day I began to adapt my physical self to my mental self.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elise.Matei
Sharon, You are not quibbling at all! Thank you for your thoughtful response. It is an extremely important point. I understand what you are saying and understand exactly how you are using the word transsexual; that a transsexual has the mental gender that is the opposite of their biological gender. Ones interior experience, identification and REALITY is everything feminine, womanly, sugar and spice and all that is nice - all happening (unfortunately) within a male vehicle. The interior is a VW Cabriolet, or a Mercedes-Benz C230 Kompressor (ultimate "chick cars") but the exterior is a Ford Mustang or a Dodge Viper (very much guy cars).
Please understand, Sharon, that I am not saying the meaning you personally ascribe to the word "trasnssexual" is not generally OR technically incorrect when used to describe the reality of what you are. It is probably I who am quibbling (forgive me if it seems so). I am NOT challenging the reality of that which you are labeling the transsexual state of being, for I am one as well (although in me it was actively repressed until recently). I am just wondering what is the best term to describe this state of being and unless I am wrong, there is currently no standard or clear-cut universal specific meaning that differentiates between the word transsexual and transgendered.
I love words and language. A word should MEAN something specific or at most have several specific nuances of meaning. When words are ambiguous, there is no clarity. When there is ambiguity and lack of clarity to important words, there is misunderstanding. When there is misunderstanding, there is conflict, bad decision making, wasted time, wasted effort, wasted money, wrong-headed emotional investment and even tragedy.
I have to stop now - but I want to continue this exchange with you later today - so will post again to complete my thought. Thanks!
-------------------------------
Would you agree with this?
"Transgendered" = A man with the mental gender of a woman; and a woman with the mental gender of a man.
"Transsexual" = Transgendered person who takes medical and/or surgical steps to make their body match their mental gender
The reason I think the term "Transsexual" should be reserved for that group of Transgendered people who take the relative drastic steps to change their physiology is because the word "sexual" has a much more overt physical implication or reference, than the word "gender" which is a little more diffuse.
There is a difference between someone who has the mental gender of a woman and the body of a man who then takes body-changing hormones or undergoes sex-change surgery ~ compared to someone who has the mental gender of a woman and the body of a man who doesn't take these steps, and perhaps never will.
Why? Because when you DO take those medical steps and effect an actual change to your body, you enhance and enlarge your mental gender identification as a woman. By taking those medical steps you become more thoroughly womanly than when you don't.
I'm not saying one person is "better" than the other, just that the one who goes the medical route to change their body, is definitely more of a woman than someone that does not. That's so obvious, I would call it a truism.
That being the case, I think it is appropriate to distinguish between the two. And I would say the term "Transgendered" is more generic and less specifically references ones physiological state compared to the word "Transsexual", which has traditionally been associated with for instance, "she males" (an individual having the breasts of a woman, the shape and softness and curviness of a woman, but the genitalia of a man). Right?
So you and I are Transgendered, and so is a Transexual. But we are not Transexuals because our bodies are still male bodies since we do not take hormones and have not had surgery. We have to work harder to maintain our feminine appearance, shave our bodies, wear a wig, use artificial gimmicks like breastforms to make it seem like we have real breasts. And if we dont do those things our bodies will look very, male. But someone on hormone therapy or has had surgery doesnt have those problems, or at least not as many, as their bodies ARE physically equivalent to a womans, or approaching that in an important way we could never experience.
The word "Transexual" is more powerful and so should only refer to TG's who change their physiology.
Now.... back to Transvestite. This is technically a man who wears womans clothes even though he has the mental gender of a man (not a woman like you and I). Thus a transvestite is NOT Transgendered. Right?
Finally, the word Cross Dresser. Both Transvestite's and Transgendered people Cross Dress. The word Cross Dress is VERY generic. A so called Drag Queen also cross dresses, but he is NOT Transgendered because he has the mental gender of being a male.
Where it gets difficult is when speaking of sexual behaviour, where the terms Straight (man + woman), Gay (man + man) and Lesbian (woman + woman) are used to describe sexual behaviour.
This may be a subtle point but it is KEY: The nature of the sexual relationship depends on the persons mental gender NOT his or her physical body.
SO...
1. If man A who has the mental gender of a woman, then has sex with man B who has the mental gender of a man: it is straight sex for man A but not for man B. You would have to say that Man B is either gay or bisexual. Right?
2. If man A1 who has the mental gender of a woman, then has sex with man A2 who also has the mental gender of a woman: it is female lesbian sex for both man A1 and man A2. Get it?
3. If man B1 who has the mental gender of a man, then has sex with man B2 who also has the mental gender of a man: it would be gay sex for both. Obviously.
4. If man A who has the mental gender of a woman, then has sex with woman A who has the mental gender of a man: it is straight sex for both. Get it?
5. If man A who has the mental gender of a woman, then has sex with woman B who has the mental gender of a woman: it is lesbian sex for man A but straight sex for woman B.
6. If man B who has the mental gender of a man, then has sex with woman B who has the sexual gender of a woman: it is straight sex for both. Obviously.
7. If woman A1 who has the mental gender of a man, then has sex with woman A2 who also has the mental gender of a man: it would be male gay sex for both. For sure.
8. If woman A who has the mental gender of a man, then has sex with woman B who has the mental gender of a woman: it would be straight sex for woman A but lesbian sex for woman B.
Is this valid or is it just semantics? Did I wast my evening with meaningless word-play? It makes sense to me if you buy the initial premise that it is the mental gender identification that defines the person, not his or her body.
Post Script
After having elevated the answer to a simple question to a veritable "science" with all the above however... with respect to answering the original question that began this thread
"How do you know if you are transgendered or just CD?"
your elegant statement really nails it Sharon:
"...anyone who is of the opposite mental gender than that of the body they were born with."
[end]
Since this topic has been going on for five months, I'm sure about every idea possible has been brought up. So at the risk of being redundant, I would still like to throw in my 2 cents...
First, I find the question to be irrelevant. Or at least it should be irrelevant. Why? Because one's life should not be defined by their label. Instead, a label should describe a life. And much of this discussion has been about defining one's life based on a label.
I find this especially scary since there are no fixed definitions for these labels. Most people (including me) have their own definition based both on their individual experience and even their T* political/belief leanings. So if we cannot agree on a label, how important can that label be?
I also note that the initial question was politically loaded from the start with the word 'just' before CD, and the implication that there are only two possible conditions, TG or CD.
OK, now to a specific comment on the label transgendered. There are a number of definitions of TG, but for me it has always been an all encompassing label. Transgender refers to anyone who transcends societies gender rules. That label includes CD's and it includes TS's. It also included a wide swath of other labels like drag queens, androgonyms, TV's, two spirits, boychicks, gender queers, she-bears, ambigendereds, etc., basically anyone else who is not cisgendered.
Note, many people don't like this definition of transgendered because it associates their gender path with other gender paths they hate, however, it is still a very common definition. I can trace this usage back to at least 1990 in some glossaries and writings, and I also note that that is how the word is used in the term GLBT which is recognized by both the activist community and many world governments.
Marla
I would just like to say that If I had to choose between being a man and wearing women's clothes or being a woman but having to only wear male clothes. I would definatly choose being a woman and wearing just male clothes. That's because it's the body that important to me not the clothes.
Gosh.... so much information, so many different thoughts.
personally.... it was just something that I always felt in my head and in my heart. i don't know all the scientific explanations, or the statistics, and I don't understand everything cd's ts's tg's str8,gay, androg, But I think I understand me, and what motivates me and what makes me happy, and what makes me feel like I am going in the right direction.
Right, Transgendered is a sort of all-encompassing term then. Marla, what you are saying is consistent with what I intuited, though you have expanded it to include all of the other sub-categories of human behavioral or lifestyle categories that I must confess, I am totally clueless about. Please educate me.Quote:
Originally Posted by marla01
Two questions:
(1) Can you (within the strictures of what is considered acceptable language and content, as defined in the policies and guidelines currently in-force within this web-forum) please define the terms "drag queens, androgonyms, TV's, two spirits, boychicks, gender queers, she-bears, ambigendereds"? If this cannot be done in a manner that doesn't cross the boundaries of what is considered good taste, it is ok not to respond. I would just Google each one and try to find out for myself but you are very articulate and would save me the time of trying to decipher which of the 500,000 hits I'm sure will come up for each term, are closer to reality, vs the many that might be tainted by personal bias.
(2) But 1st... because I am so much in agreement with your umbrella-like definition of the term Transgendered, and how this has de facto validation by how it has been used in this generic all-encompassing way for 29 years by both activist groups and world governments, is there a similar, generally implied or universally accepted meaning for the word "Transsexual"?
Thank you.
Arrgh, I hate trying to specifically define a lot of these labels, not only because there are many different definitions, but many of them are quite personal and/or political, and people tend to be touchy about them. Note that many of these terms I see as subcultural. For example, I see drag queen as a transgender expression that is specifically an artifact of the gay culture. But note, although it comes out of the gay culture, I consider the basic forces behind it to be the same as other transgendereds. So no one please shoot me for these definitions…Quote:
Originally Posted by Elise.Matei
Drag queen - part of the gay culture where the transgendered expression is loud and over exagerated. The individual may be primarily motivated by the theater of it, but many have strong transgendered energies including many later become transsexual (kind of a gay version of crossdressing). Also Drag King for F2M.
Androgynym - Someone who negates or minimizes both the masculine and the feminine. Basically gender neutral. The old Saturday Night character Pat who you could not tell what gender they were is an example.
TV - Transvestite - I consider this to be about the same as crossdresser. Now one definition I have heard for dividing the two labels is that a crossdresser can have any motivation for their decision to crossdress, while a transvestite is purely motivated to express her/his gender. So a transvestite is a crossdresser but a crossdresser is not necessarily a transvestite.
Two spirit - Culturally, this derives from various American Indian cultures. There is not specific one to one match in our culture but seems to have been a mix of both transgendered characteristics and gay characteristics. Today, both gays and transgendereds make claim to the label.
Boychick - not sure, but I think it comes from the lesbian trans community.
Gender queer - an individual who plays with mixing the genders.
She-bear - I don't know where I picked up this label. It's on my list (I have a long list of gender labels I collect) but where I got it I don't know. Anyone know?
Ambigendered - a term similar describing an individual who embraces both genders.
Actually, if you are curious, here is a long list of gender labels I've collected over the years. I can't define them all but the list is fascinating…
transgendered
transsexual
transvestite
crossdresser
transgenderist
genderqueer
FTM/F2M
MTF/M2F
transman
transwoman
transperson
third-gendered
gendertrash
gender outlaw
gender warrior
trans
transfag
transdyke
tranny
passing woman/girl
drag king
drag queen
male lesbian
girl boy
boychick,
boy girl,
boy dyke,
gender-bender,
gender blender,
transqueer,
androgynous,
transfolk,
butch dyke,
nelly fag,
gender-different,
gender submissive,
man/boy with a vagina,
chick with a dick,
shape-shifter,
he-she,
she-male,
transboy,
transgirl,
androgyne,
gender variant,
gender****er,
trannyfag,
trannyqueer,
trannydyke,
Two Spirit,
new man,
new woman,
she-bear,
Tomboy,
intersexual,
female guy,
tranz,
bearded female,
herm,
hemaphrodite,
MTM/M2M,
FTF/F2F,
ungendered,
agendered,
genderfree,
bigendered,
midgendered,
polygendered,
pangendered,
omnigendered,
crossgendered,
byke,
boi,
pre-op,
post-op,
non-op,
no-ho,
epicene,
othergendered,
transkid,
female impersonator,
gender-atypical,
ambigendered,
As to answering the question of defining transsexual, there does seem to be some general agreement on the term if we can get away from the politics. It's strongly tied to the desire for physical modification of the body. Generally, I interpret it to mean someone who desires to modify their genitals or someone who has modified their genitals. The problem is that some who have modified their genitals reject the label now claiming they are no longer transgendered or transseuxal. And the label is sometimes applied to those that have done other modifications but do not desire to change their genitals (no-op TS, I have a couple of friends that have made this decision). The label is strongly associated with 'Gender Dysphoria' and the Benjamin Standards of Care.
I hope that gives a little insight, on at least how I see these labels.
Marla
Elise.. :rolleyes: :rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by Elise.Matei
That's perfectly true. TS is used by those who feel they need the term.Quote:
I am just wondering what is the best term to describe this state of being and unless I am wrong, there is currently no standard or clear-cut universal specific meaning that differentiates between the word transsexual and transgendered.
Aren't you oversimplifying, hugely? You appear to be saying there can only be masculine or feminine - with no variation in between? I look around and see many, many shades here - not just black or white.Quote:
Would you agree with this?
"Transgendered" = A man with the mental gender of a woman; and a woman with the mental gender of a man.
So, as mentioned earlier in the thread, how can some identify as non-op transsexual, then?Quote:
There is a difference between someone who has the mental gender of a woman and the body of a man who then takes body-changing hormones or undergoes sex-change surgery ~ compared to someone who has the mental gender of a woman and the body of a man who doesn't take these steps, and perhaps never will.
TVs, CDs, DQs, GQ and all the other labels are widely regarded as included under transgender - it's intended as an umbrella term. Of importance, I would suggest, is the amount of gender dysphoria felt by an individual?Quote:
Thus a transvestite is NOT Transgendered. Right?
Finally, the word Cross Dresser. Both Transvestite's and Transgendered people Cross Dress. The word Cross Dress is VERY generic. A so called Drag Queen also cross dresses, but he is NOT Transgendered because he has the mental gender of being a male.
Aren't you just trying to put everyone into a little pigeonhole? If you need to feel 'ordered' yourself, then go ahead.. But be prepared that you may cause offence to others.Quote:
Is this valid or is it just semantics? Did I wast my evening with meaningless word-play?
:yt:Quote:
Originally Posted by micheletv
That's the problem with all these labels - just look through the thread, at the judgemental implications of the language that have been used.
'Just', 'Only', 'Lower', 'Higher', 'Courage'... How do any of those exclusive terms help us to think and act as a community, in order to improve our lot? :idontknow:
Well I must say, my eyes have been opened! :eek: Wow Marla, I am so impressed with your obvious dedication to and understanding of a world that is often confusing and mind boggling for its complexity. Your serious mindedness and enthusiasm is obvious by the long listing of terms you have collected over the years, many of which I can only guess at, and when I try too hard, it throws me for a loop.
I never believed there was just a simple little neatly packaged world of two or three varieties of psychosexual identification when I wrote my posts above. I purposefully wanted to keep it simple cuz even on that level there seems to be confusion regarding terminology. As I was writing my posts it occurred to me that there must be an entire spectrum of possibilities but its often best to keep it simple in the beginning. Then once I have a basic understanding down, to then try to gain a more comprehensive understanding and appreciation for what is now apparent to me; the sheer breadth and scope of the greater transgendered community. You have helped me considerably and I thank you for it. It IS much more involved than I ever imagined. I thought I knew everything when it came to human sexuality and gender. I see where that is definitely not the case.
As you have clearly stated, Marla, and as Nicki has also asserted by her own words, and when she echoed Michele's opinion... and what Kelly so movingly expressed (and by what so many others have said in this thread), there IS something almost dark and alienating about the very act of applying labels to people, even if it is for the express purpose of attempting to understand. But understanding each other is important. At least to have and idea of who someone is, whats important to them, how they think and how they differ from your own way of life. We are always comparing and analyzing. Always looking to see if there's a better way. We are a curious species and there is nothing more fascinating to wonder about than who and what we are. Not only does this allow one to avoid inadvertent unintended insensitivity, but it also allows for a fuller appreciation of the wonderful diversity that abounds, especially in a free society. By breaking down barriers to understanding, ignorance is erased and happiness and acceptance take its place. PLUS... one might discover a new way to be that maybe fits ones inner needs better.
I also agree that the down side is, when terminology replaces the "person" by pigeon-holing that individual into some artificial category, thereby not SEEING the person for what she or he truly is. History is replete with examples of bigotry and persecution. Mans inhumanity to man - is what makes the reading of human history so painful sometimes. On the other hand I don't know how anyone can really understand someone without words that have specific meaning. As Marla so pointedly demonstrated, it is one complicated and wonderfully diverse world of humanity out there - much of which I would now have to admit I am shockingly unaware and even feel foolish admitting this.
But without there being some standardized universally accepted lexicon, its easy to get confused if not downright vertiginous when attempting to understand some of the more exotic varieties of human experience wrt transgenderism. There's the rub though! What organization or institution has such authority to render and refine such terminology? I'm betting the issue of a need for such a "dictionary" comes up often within various activist or non-activist transgendered organizations. Unless there is one pre-eminant GLBT society or organization that is THE authority for all things GLBT, my guess is that not until GLBT - rights laws are considered by the U.S. congress will there be any truly formal definitions established that carries real and lasting authority. If other countries have such laws on the books already, maybe they will be used as a starting point as legal terminology is instituted here. When such laws are debated, I bet every single GLB and transgendered subcategory will be discussed and codified because money will be involved wrt to insurance issues, alt marriage and divorce, child rearing, parental rights, anti-discrimination, etc etc - and also because much input will be needed by a wide range of alt lifestyle groups.
I found this long thread very meaningful and educational. I'm glad I had the opportunity to participate with all of you. No matter the "labels" we use to define ourselves, every person is like a unique flower, blossoming. And while there may be neatly planted rows and pretty patches of flowers that are of the same variety, and also vast fields of randomly scattered wild flowers of many different types - the fact remains that we all need each other and that any one person is just as worthy and intrinsically valuable as everyone else. We share a common mortality and we are united by a common desire to live our lives in freedom and harmony, because only in such a world are we able to discover and express our individual potential to the betterment of all. We are so much more alike then we are different, but the ways we differ, one person from the next, are important enough to make each life truly unique. I believe no two people are ever identical. The flower that you are, once blossoming then gone, has never before existed in all the people who have lived and died in the past, and will never be repeated by all who are yet to be born into this world. Words and their definitions are important, but they can never capture the miracle and unique wonder of that which is your life. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicki BAren't you just trying to put everyone into a little pigeonhole? If you need to feel 'ordered' yourself, then go ahead.. But be prepared that you may cause offence to others.
:yt:Quote:
Originally Posted by micheletv
That's the problem with all these labels - just look through the thread, at the judgemental implications of the language that have been used.
'Just', 'Only', 'Lower', 'Higher', 'Courage'... How do any of those exclusive terms help us to think and act as a community, in order to improve our lot? :idontknow:
Unfortunately, yes there is an intra-communal territorial aspect to the labels that does a dis-service. I was witness to an outburst of rage in what was supposed to be a Transgender support group because an individual considered my description of myself to be a 'game' while his condition was "real". I haven't gone back to that group since.
In communicating with the world at large - our relatives, community, co-workers - the lack of adequate language comes across like we do not know what we are talking about. The internal pissing contest does not help. The world at large comes in these doors in the form of SO and family suddenly faced with the up-close microscopic view. We are encouraged to communicate - communicate - communicate. Yet we don't have the right words, because we can not agree on the language to begin to explain what is going on for us at any particular time. The topic is so broad.
As far as label definitions go, I like the wikipedia topics starting with the wiki Transgender site. As marla01 demonstrated above, there as so many label variations that is is now impossible for get any consensus on interpretation without some organized process, and though not perfect, wiki does a good job.
Labels do not have to be political, they can be functional, and useful to help us ourselves understand how we fit in the broad spectrum. While many in the transgender community don't care to be labeled, there are those around us that have a vested interest in a better understanding of the reality.
For example, would it not in fact be easier to provide support for the OP, whose purpose in posting, i assume, was to help understand herself better rather than make a political statement, if we all had a more common understanding of the language.
OMG! Awesome reference - that Wiki url! Can't wait till I'm lucid again, tomorrow after some sleep - to peruse the entry w/ great interest. Ur awesome Carin! It was a great pleasure to read your post! Women with brains... what an aphrodisiac!
:battingeyelashes:
http://www.365gay.com/news/study-tra...ge-2/#comments
pls cut and paste if you want to read it....i couldnt figure out how to get the link in as a link.....:doh:
anyway....read the comments....labels labels labels....just unbelievable what trouble they cause!!!
i understand the fundamental need to communicate requires us all to create labels for things, but how bout this label for everyone
....people...
hopefully there are no "non people" that i offended:heehee:
Awww.... so true.
I see what you mean about a link within a link :heehee: I don't either. BUT yes, the links within the article featured on the web page you cite is amazing. Aparantly there was a huge study done about transgendered youth in America, by GLSEN (Gay Lesbian and Straight Educational Network). Wow. Brutal! But hopeful too. Knowing the fact is the 1st step to change - as IN - Federal Laws to PROTECT.
NEW YORK, March 17, 2009 - Transgender youth face extremely high levels of victimization in school, even more so than their non-transgender lesbian, gay and bisexual peers. But they are also more likely to speak out about LGBT issues in the classroom, according to Harsh Realities: The Experiences of Transgender Youth in Our Nation's Schools, the first comprehensive study on transgender students, released today by the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network.
Nearly nine out of 10 transgender students experienced verbal harassment at school in the past year because of their sexual orientation and gender expression, more than half experienced physical harassment because of their sexual orientation and gender expression and more than a quarter experienced physical assault because of their sexual orientation and gender expression.