Truly. Isn't it interesting that Anne "rushed" into HRT but somehow should have told her wife sooner so she would have more time to adjust? Assumptions, assumptions ... "rushed" based on what, exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
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Truly. Isn't it interesting that Anne "rushed" into HRT but somehow should have told her wife sooner so she would have more time to adjust? Assumptions, assumptions ... "rushed" based on what, exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
I highly doubt Anne rushed into hrt. She has been fighting the entire time and is still fighting. She finally acquiesced and gave estrogen a chance, and from her account has been helped tremendously. I really do not think any amount of time will allow a spouse to adjust to fact that the man they married is going to be a woman. They may given enough time be able to adjust or accept what is occurring. So by that logic give our spouse time to adjust before we start estrogen. We should suffer needlessly until they adjust and give us their support and acceptance. Well in the majority of cases it will not happen. I tried to be as honest and truthful with my wife as I could when I make the decision to transition. She had well over 6 months to adjust to the fact I was going to take estrogen. She desperately wanted me to get a second opinion before I went to see the endo. She made an appointment with a second psychiatrist for me and I kept it but the guy was an idiot and in the end he agreed I was informed and probably making the best decision for me. After hrt my wife could not deal with the physical changes and we are where are now 10 months later in separate rooms. I have no idea how much information Anne divulged to her spouse , and in some ways it is irrelevant. She made the decision to take estrogen, her spouse is unhappy with that decision and does not want to see her man that she married become a woman. We all hope that our wives will see beyond what is happening and stick by us for love. The brutal truth is that situation is rare. In my support group there are no couples where one person transitioned. There was one couple and she stayed for 3 years after ffs and srs, but last month they filed for divorce.
I make no assumptions what anybody discloses and to whom or in what time frame. I can only relate my experience as I experience it. Hopefully someone can get some value and apply it to their own situation.
About 100 replies later in this discussion,nothing that has been said including by Anne herself,that leads me to believe that her wife was made aware that Anne's plan was to try to become a woman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogina B
First off, I do not believe that I rushed into HRT at all. I did my homework. I discussed it with my therapists, my wife, and certain other friends and family, including some friends I have here. I made the decision to begin HRT, and being on HRT is the right thing for me. Would that I could go back and undo this decision, I would not.
Even more, I have not regretted the decision to be on HRT for even one minute since beginning. I am a much, much better person for it, and I believe this to my very core.
As for my wife, I have always been honest with her to the extent I am honest with myself. I have not lead her astray. We had many discussions about this. My wife even had one on one private time with my gender therapist about all of this. And I can assure you, my therapist did not sugar coat the reality of any of this. Nor should she have.
Regardless, at least for the time being, my wife is supportive of me being on HRT.
As for whether I know in my heart what I am ultimately going to do - maybe I do, maybe I don't. The thing is, if I do know, I am not willing to admit it to myself yet.
And maybe this has to do with fear and risk. Or maybe it doesn't. Or maybe it's a combination of things.
Still, I do recognize that if I transition I put the survival of my marriage at tremendous risk. My wife has told me as much herself. Of course, I don't blame her for feeling that way, but I have a lot invested in my marriage (as does she). And most importantly, my wife is my partner, and I love her dearly. Who wants to lose someone they love?
If I can do what I need to do, whatever that ultimately may be, and retain my marriage, then yay me, right??! I mean, I certainly can't be blamed or criticized for refusing to give up, can I? I can't be criticized or blamed for retaining hope that my wife and I may be able to survive this, right?
Also, my wife is no dummy. In fact, she is much smarter than I could ever hope to be. And she is more accomplished by far. I cannot even hold a candle to her. Nor do I even try, because there is no need - we are a team and a partnership.
So do not make the mistake of underestimating her understanding of what is going on here. Or her ability to understand it.
In any event, there are still a lot of maybes and unknowns here. This, of course, is why we all spend so much time on here in the forum, in therapy, in thoughtful and introspective reflection, in debate, or doing whatever else obsessing over these issues and questions.
To date, I have answered a lot of questions that I was unable or unwilling to answer not so very long ago. However, as do most of us here, I still have more to figure out, more to answer, more to come to terms with, and more to learn.
I'm not going to make any decisions without thorough analysis or research. I believe I have made much progress to date, and that I will continue to make progress in the future. I am not sure how such progress in the future will be defined, but we'll see.
Anyways, I am not willing to give up on my marriage yet. Neither is my wife.
I think Anne knows exactly where this is leading...but is trying to ride both sides of the fence.
Whether out of fear of the great unknown, losing a spouse/family, support, being alone...who knows?
But it isn't fair to hold all the cards and then get angry and claim victim when a spouse doesn't know what she does.
As rough as this is for you Anne, you put yourself out here.
I cannot imagine what you suffer...I have a pretty good idea of what your wife does.
I can only hope this can be a catalyst for you, to find answers and maybe a little peace of mind here.
You may find the reason for this, if you reread Anne's words. Anne did not make her wife aware that her plan was to try to "become a woman" (whatever you mean by that) because that was not Anne's plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogina B
Her therapist suggested hormones as a way to relieve the dysphoria and Anne discussed this option with her wife before agreeing. The WPATH guidelines are very clear that the use of hormones is not limited to those who will eventually transition completely but that this can be used by professionals to alleviate the symptoms of dysphoria without transition in certain cases.
Neither you, Rogina, nor Veronica are qualified medical practitioners treating Anne. Your uncharitable speculation as to what may or may not be Anne's motivation is just that: speculation.
Who said I was angry??! And who says I hold all the cards??!! I am neither angry, nor do I hold all the cards. At the end of the day, if my wife decides she can't take this anymore, or that she no longer feels the same about me as she once did because of this, she can kick my ass out. THAT is a pretty damn big card SHE holds, in my view. I have needs that I most address, or I will literally lose my mind, go insane, and die inside. I am barely functional in day to day life as it is. I am barely holding it together as is. If my wife so chooses, and it's not like I wouldn't understand, she can end our relationship this very moment. That is a powerful, powerful card over MY life that she holds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Momarie
As for being a victim - I did not CHOOSE this. I did not ASK for this. I have no CHOICE in the matter. But I get that my wife did not ask for this, either. She does not want it. It is what it is, though. And what it is is grossly unfair to both of us.
True. I did put myself out here. But you know what? I did so because I was desperate. I did so because I wanted to DIE. I did so because I had very real thoughts of suicide on a regular basis. The thought of stripping my sweet, beautiful daughter of her innocence and childhood in this manner, though, caused me to completely break down crying hysterically more times than I care to count. That I still had such thoughts anyways scared the hell out of me. During those dark days when my GD is at its worst, I care about NOTHING except her. Bringing her into this world is the single most important thing I have ever done and will ever do. She is my rock, to the extent anything CAN be my rock. Still, I have wanted to die. I have wanted to kill myself. I have wanted a drunk driver to just randomly plow the **** out of me on the road and obliterate my ass from this cold, cruel, ****ed up world.Quote:
As rough as this is for you Anne, you put yourself out here.
I HAVE TO DO THESE THINGS TO MAINTAIN MY SANITY AND SURVIVE!!!
Deciding to pursue HRT and ultimately beginning it was the single best decision I have made. True, I made the decision for myself, and perhaps you can argue I did so selfishly.
But here's the deal - that was the first REAL decision that actually matters that I have ever made for ME in my entire life. I did it for ME!! And it felt DAMN good!!! It was absolutely necessary. Most importantly, doing so gave me hope that perhaps I can make my life work.
Because in the end, if I go nuts, loss my job because I can't function in life, and kill myself because I am a complete, total, irreconcilable mess, WHO does that serve??!! Not my wife. That's for sure. And definitely not my daughter. Nor does it serve my friends, family, or community. It serves no one but me.
On the other hand, if I progress forward, and somehow get my shit together, I certainly serve myself. But I also serve my daughter, hopefully my wife, and my friends and family.
So did I really put myself out here??!! I am not so sure that I did. I think circumstance put me out here. Because between the choices and decisions I have made, in comparison to the alternative, it's not really a choice or decision I have made at all, is it?
Simply put, what it is is survival. Just plain and simple survival.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anne2345
Anne, it is survival, but, its not survival of the corpus, it is survival of our heart, our essence, our soul.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anne2345
Relax, let go a minute or two and reflect on the interplay between what you FEEL and what you THINK. You opened up a couple posts upthread with the first quote. This sure sounds like your heart speaking. Then in your next post you sorta disavow yourself, and say you were forced into it. That's your head speaking. (I have the same freaking post in my past somewhere, but I digress . . .)
Over in another thread today Misty said:Anne, You know Misty has this right. YOU KNOW this.Quote:
It's a decision your heart makes, your head will decide against it every time.
You began HRT, and thus you began transition when after a long battle your head finally got cornered by your heart, and it had to go along.
Your head is facile, elusive. But your heart will corner it again . . .
There it is. You can spend a lifetime doing what makes others happy. First your parents when a child, then friends and siblings, then a spouse and kids. Why then is it wrong when it is time to do for yourself? I have made a decision like this only one time before and that was when I divorced my first wife. It was a nightmare that disrupted my life for several years. You know what, in the long run it was one of the best things I ever did. It was hard at the time but now many years later I see it was the best thing for me and the kids. Now it is time to make a decision for me again. I am going to become ...ME. How can that be wrong? Anne, is it wrong to be who you really are?Quote:
Originally Posted by Anne2345
You could be talking about me here Ellen. You are so right!Quote:
Originally Posted by almostalady
Anne, this is good advice. The only way to be really happy is to be the real you.
Dearest Anne...
Wow...it's been a very long time since we have chatted in any kinda way. Both Hope and I have missed chatting with you. As I have read many of these posts it seems that you are on the defensive side of this and I understand why. So if I may put my 2 cents in...first off thank you for acknowledging that killing yourself wasn't the way to go. Your daughter does deserve your love weither it's in male mode or female mode. Children are more resilient then we give them credit for. She will always have your love and she will always need it. I'm not gonna say what you need because I'm not walking in your shoes. I will say what may be helpful is that despite what issues you and your wife are having you may want to consider just thinking about yourself first. I know you want and deserve to be happy and to do that, what for you needs to be accomplished? After you figure that out then work on the next issue important to you. Eventually you will tackle all of them and while not all issues will be resolved positively you will have addressed them the best that you could have. I know you will do what you feel is right for
yourself and when you do all the rest will fall into its place and your daughter will love you no less.
Joanna
It's very reassuring, that the both of you are willing to fight for your marriage. This is one of the most difficult things a marriage can face. It is encouragingto know that many familes have made the transition if and or when it occurs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anne2345
She man not have made her aware, but it seems clear from th OP that her spouse fears at least at one moment during their discussion/argument, that that is what is happening and that her reaction was not what Anne expected or wanted to hear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rianna Humble
We are all pulling for you Anne, You have so many other things on your plate right now, that I may seem at times the mountain is too high. Keep trudging and you'll reach the summit.
Kelly
this just keeps going on...
i see there is a point of view people have expressed that communications may be an issue...well, duh...
things happen in real time.people express things through words and actions and its an imperfect thing...
for those of you that have "Decided to not transition" or "have no plan to transition", piping in to tell anne what she's done wrong,
i have some news for you...it doesn't work that way, and you may end up having some very hard life lessons coming your way...
part of coming to terms with something like this is that you fight it.. you don't want to feel this way...and it makes communications much less black and white than the pabulum about having guts to face the downside or telling the truth...the truth and the downsides move around...decisions are not decisions...you don't wake up on tuesday and "decide"...and if you do, by thursday you are undecided again...this happens over time and yes, it can be a lot of drama...maybe this is actually the best place to get out the drama so you can do your best in your life...
you think you have managed your life..you think you have managed your gender dysphoria...you can try to set anne straight and handle her wife with the same honesty as you...
it doesn't work that way...i had mine managed, anne had hers...melissa had hers...April had hers, kathyrn had hers..frances, arbon...on and on...
...others here are working on it, praying it will stop....but they know what i'm saying.
....unless of course you are just better at managing than all of us, that you love your wife and family more than we did....
also, i did not read anything about anne putting this on her wife..i just see a lot of disclosure that i bet helps her a lot to work through her end of this even tho people keep attacking her for it..
This thread has taken several turns just as all long threads do, one of them being the eternal discussion between TSs & CDs about whether a married TS "should" or "should not" transition based on having made prior familial commitments, i.e, marriage and parenthood. Another tangent was whether Anne had been thoroughly honest with her wife or not, complicated by the fact that Anne doesn't currently have all the answers either.
But really what underlies all of this are individual hopes. If a wife is on-board with the transition there is no issue, is there?
So this is my analysis of Anne's current situation.
1. Anne and Wife love each other and are both committed parents. I also know that Anne & Wife are committed to their quite public careers.
2. Anne began taking HRT to relieve debilitating GD in an environment that, needless to say, does not embrace transsexualism and transition.
3. Wife was aware of the full extent of Anne's unhappiness and suicidal thoughts, and fully supports HRT.
4. Anne HOPED #3 meant that Wife accepted that Anne is not a man, and there is a chance that Wife might support full transition should current measures to keep GD at bay not be sufficient. Anne gave Wife materials to read and further, Wife spoke to the therapist, in an effort to educate Wife as to the full potential ramifications of severe GID.
5. Even though Wife was given materials that explained how far this could all go, Wife HOPED (quite naturally in my opinion) that HRT was similar to anti-depressants and it was a sufficient measure to relieve Anne's GID. Wife may also be aware that HRT does have different effects on people and Wife may have also HOPED that Anne might be one of the people who do not grow breasts.
6. Anne now realizes that wife still sees her as a man. Anne also feels anxious because she feels torn between her very survival and losing wife, child, and career, in fact, everything.
7. Anne's wife feels torn because she is beginning to feel as if she is losing a husband, in view of Anne seeking yet another step (electrolysis) that will align her body closer to a female's.
What perplexes me about so many of the discussions in this thread, is that the process of full realization, assessment, and decision about this situation should happen at the snap of fingers, after having read a book, and after having spoken to a therapist. There are many things to weigh here, many feelings to explore, and it is a Process that is anything but linear!
My heart goes out to everyone involved here, equally. It's a damn tough situation as we've seen in this section over and over again, and to place blame on anyone or to argue about "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts" is pointless in my opinion.
So Anne, I'm wishing you, your wife, and your daughter the best possible outcome for this very difficult and heartbreaking situation.
:love:
@Reine: nicely summarized. I also think that Anne may still have one foot in the same camp as her wife on #5 - hoping that HRT was similar to anti-depressants and it alone would be a sufficient measure to relieve Anne's GID.
Thus, I think Anne herself has some issues "fully accepting" that HRT isn't relieving her GD all by itself, and that a full transition is still on her life path. That would explain a lot of Anne's vacillations, and give reason to the underlying communication issues with her wife - they both are still hoping GD goes away without any more concessions to Anne changing herself.
Anne knows her inner heart, and after HRT was started and took hold, Anne would be the first to know that HRT hasn't been enough to permanently quench GD. And Anne is trying to avoid breaking the bad news to her wife. The effort to just start electrolysis like it was no big deal, was an attempt to soften the disclosure of the underlying fact HRT alone wasn't enough. Her wife being smarter than Anne, called her on it, and wants Anne to say it "outloud." The say it "outloud" thing is significant, and it underlies the whole field of cognitive counselling. We change ourselves when we say something "outloud" in the presence of another. Anne's wife no doubt know's Anne's own self acceptance issues, and she may in fact be trying to help Anne along. Anne's wife is in love with Anne too (according to Anne), and it's not a stretch to think she wants Anne to learn to be happy.
And of course my observations run the fine line of knowledge obtained by experience, and opinions made by me projecting my own issues on to others, as all of this was, or is, me too. While my inner voice has "known" transition would be my path since about age 13, accepting it, saying it "outloud," and doing it, has been a lifelong undertaking. And I'm no better than Anne at the self acceptance thing. I too have a wife I'm in love with and who I don't want to give up a relationship with. I too have tried to soften the blow of the bad news that I need to change more. I still do it, I am still that way with my wife. And while I acknowledge my fear, that I am afraid of just how deeply alone as I am going to feel if my wife isn't in my bed with me at night, it takes a lot of self control for me to stop acting on that fear, and most days I come up short.
So I join you Reine in wishing Anne and her family the best possible outcome . . .
Just Human Nature.
I know we all are wishing Anne and her family all the best as she continues to advance and really find herself.
A lot of responses, mine included, questioned whether the wife understood or comprehended, and whether discussions were effective, etc. I now realize all of those responses may be irrelevant.
What we are seeing here is typical of the human nature when presented with a challenge. Anne and her family, myself and my family, and many others here who have paired, share the same difficulty. A lifetime bonding, which we see in species who cannot verbalize it, and which we spend endless hours discussing, is the ultimate blending of two beings and their total makeup. It takes two beings, blending perfectly to manage this level of bonding. Our problem is that our spouse, whose being is completely matched to ours, does not know that an integral part of our being is a woman. Whether we knew it, or told them about it, the wife's being just simply fit with who we were, totally, unquestioning.
The problem arises when they are made aware that a major part of our being is that of a woman. Their mentally aware world has been challenged and put into direct conflict with their mentally unaware bonded world. Whether they are accepting of us as a woman or not, they are in conflict, an internal conflict that may be totally unspoken. All the education and discussions and crying and hand holding cannot remove this internal conflict, although the individual may be able to suppress it.
Should the wife become aware of the bonding and accept the fact that her bonding was attracted to a woman, there is still conflict in the acceptance and change being imposed on the lifetime bonding. The conflict is never removed, even if minimized.
So periodically, it is to be expected that this conflict will surface. Maybe only in passing sadness, with no action, or perhaps in a verbal response parsed in the anger of confusion and uncertainty. These episodes are part of the acceptance progression, and can represent their desire to share in our angst by attempting to assume responsibility for the actions being taken. Being so closely bonded, they feel the internal need to be a part of the process, even if inelegantly spoken.
So, I am hopeful that Anne has not suffered a setback, but has seen the surfacing of the concerns of a lifetime bonded individual who is beset with conflict as her wife's world is being rocked. These reactions are just human nature when the bonding appears to be threatened. Take heart dear Anne. Yes the conflict may tear worlds apart, but one can never lose the bonding that is real, and to have your wife's acceptance for such a long time indicates strength.
Just my ramblings as I begin the process of bringing my wife into my world. Maybe too rosy, but i need all the good thoughts I can muster.
Hugs to all,
Barbara
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbara Ella
This is so beautifully written...I just have to say....I am really happy that I / we/ all have each other as a resource for such in depth and valuable perspective. :-)
I am not sure that surprise is really the right emotion. I think that there is a lot of illusion among those who feel suddenly they have been a girl all of their lives facts to the contrary. You are quite right that no woman can mask her nature all of the time. It is impossible or a grand illusion. Most women masking what their nature is, are constantly in danger of having their nature leak everywhere. Because of it they are odd, weird in their attempt to mask, mask and mask more - and considered strange. Many women in this situation experience everything from emotional cruelty to physical violence on top of their own confusion and inability to come to terms with their strange bodies, until they finally take the step.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
If a spouse is surprised then this element cannot have been present. Or if it was, then the illusion may have been created by a wish in the face of facts. The confluence of this with a fundamental abdication of the covenant struck at marriage by the husband in the relationship which comes with full transition may be felt as an attack on the spouses integrity and self image.
You did put a finger on something very fundamental to the question of who is what.
Thanks Kathryn, I try.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathryn Martin