Cultural vs. biological traits as expressions, and other thoughts...

It is a curious fact (I think) that many, if not all of us, “chose” to express our feminine side primarily by dressing as a woman. This is at least true for me, on occasions, so I am no exception. (Note the emphasis of the word “primarily” here.)

We could of course also have “chosen” to primarily express our feminine side by:
- Sex reassignment................................ (Roughly more biological traits)
- Breasts (by operation or artificial augmentation)
- Body proportions (by operation or artificially augmentation)
- Voice
- Speech pattern
- Facial expression and communication
- Gestures
- Walking
- Haircut
- Hairiness (or rather devoid of)
- Jewelry (if that is considered separate from clothing)
- Habits (if there are any specific female habits?)
- Make up..............................................(R oughly more cultural traits)
- Etc. Etc

Yet, we chose by primarily dress as a woman.

So here is a thought that popped up the other day.

Why is it more important to emulate a woman by the cultural expression (like layers of clothing), rather than the pure biological expressions (like e.g. emulating a nude look of a woman without clothes, a female voice, or breasts etc) which in some sense is a purer form what a woman really is? Or does the clothes signify a woman more than her biological body?



Also had some additional related (but minor) thoughts on this theme.

For instance, why is it that the primal expression is not cross make-up-ing, cross-face-expressing, cross-voicing, or cross-walking, in contrast to crossdressing?

Having said that, many of us do of course express many other sides too, e.g. by using make-up, women’s hairstyles/wigs, training your voices etc. Yet, we use the word crossdressing to denote essentially everything, despite that other self-expressions may be involved. Why is that and why does those self-expressions not deserve their own terms?

/Bima

Probably because we here cannot even agree what is "crossdressing" and all the other labels in use. Words like your "make-up-ing, or cross-face-expressing, cross-voicing" on the surface can say a lot, but us normal humans really prefer a simpler language not a more complicating and exact one. So the word "crossdressing" can mean many things to different people. Sometimes the general term is much easier over the long run, even with the associated disagreements over its general usage. I like the idea of "Keep It Simple, Stupid" (KISS). Also the mind is actually a wonderful and amazing thing, allowing us to sift through many varied meanings to a word or phrase and select the correct meaning that the speaker or writer intended based body language, subject matter being discussed and other clues.

I guess in this world everyone needs a label.....ours is Cross Dresser!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bima

Why is it more important to emulate a woman by the cultural expression (like layers of clothing), rather than the pure biological expression/Bima

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Crossdressing is much easier and less permanent than going through sex reassignment or the other options you've mentioned. Am I missing something obvious in your question?

Bima,

If I'm understanding you correctly ... You seem to make the assumption that CD's, Cross-dresser's, "primarily" want to be women, and that is just not the case. Also cross-dressing only means putting on clothing of the opposite gender. The word or term, cross-dressing, does not mean other activities you are listing.

Example... A CD may put on makeup. But not all CDs put on makeup. A GG, genetic girl, may also put on makeup. But she is not a CD by putting on makeup. So makeup is its own term.

Hi Bima,

I think Cross dressing is just a convenient label to lump anyone who falls within the spectrum of dressing as the opposite gender and at one end is the full "en femme" where the use of make-up, wigs, walk, mannerisms, padding occurs. However it is just a label used to bring order to chaos.

Regarding cultural vs. biological expression. Well, if I was going to emulate the nude look of a woman this would have to be via surgery and I think once you are down that road you cease being TG/CD and are more likely in the TG/TS side of the house.

Hugs

Isha

Hi,

So would i be classed as a crossdresser because i dress in Renaissance garb 1400 to 1700 or Edwardian 1900 to 1914. hmmm i wonder ,

i was asked by a man with rank why i liked dressing as the other women did - natal every one , was it to help make up the numbers of the group he took it that i was a normal male. so look at my photo.

interesting i thought, so i told him , i was in fact a female who was a bit different - intersexed, he looked at me and the penny droped. he ..... OH....i did not realise you were female.

yes sir. im just different,

i dont try to be feminine i am by nature as being female maybe not in looks or even sometimes in what i do i dont force it so really im my own person thats different yet acceptable in who i am .

many of those details youv listed would in fact just be natural for my self i did not have to work at them it was there, and with my own hormones working the changes just took place as would for any normal female,

You have to remember i dont know what its like being a real - full male theres nothing in my wiring / brain that i can say oh i understand what this is about for males,

Now this cultural / bioliogical difference in traits, oh dear. how i was brought up first 10 years 7 were blank no memory no detail due to abuse in the family , age 10 my mind woke up ,

And i dont have access to info what took place to or for me,

All i can say is Mom and i left him to be able to live, or stay alive,
Mom gave me a free rein and there was no male or female being forced to be one or the other, i knew what i was and just grow'ed up as a kid saw no difference so was okay.

I dont express myself as in feminine by dressing i express myself as a ((( normal female ))) well let me say i express my self , oh dear ... words... okay, im very expressive much more than most normal females its my whole being its not an act its so much more than that for myself .words i cant explain it .

You'd need to be infront of me to understand what im saying .

For my self its about life its about every day is so importaint because death was so close only a breath away ,thats why i count every day such a blessing and with that comes being who i am and expressing my life so yes i get a bit worked up in how i express my self, yea .....

...noeleena...

Most CDers by a whopping margin, easily verified with a search, [using the search engine of your choice] are MEN because... for the most part few women are VISUAL creatures. They don't get easily primed for battle/ready for a trip to O land because of what they see like MOST men can and do. It's counter to their most basic programming. Something seemingly lost on "most" CDers who must think that we men OR women can control what turns us on. Or OFF in the many cases of GGs who simply do NOT want to see their man dressed as a woman in any way, shape or form. It simply is UNproductive to feel guilt or shame over/because of our programming.

It's no secret that most CDers "dress" to be attractive "enough" for home [which might be just an item or two] or, most likely for the vast majority that go out, dress fully in an effort to NOT be busted or "hassled" out in public.

Women DO also have plenty of practical and/or comfy stuff to wear that makes no attempt to show off their best "assets" whatever they might be.

It's no coincidence that you won't find many porn stars, pinup girls or hookers wearing the above mentioned stuff, nor will yo find much discussion of it here at this site.

I also DID open my one and only P&V thread maybe a year ago and offered the ladies here a CHANCE.

"Show us your best Granny dresses and Flats"

At 513 views and just ONE [two line] response and still no pictures, I posted response #3 which caused the thread to vanish into the night w/o a trace.

I think the response to that thread offers some insight to your question?

Most of the stuff you mentioned in your OP are merely toppings on a pizza. The clothing or more specifically, the CHOICE in clothing IS the pizza. The toppings are no good w/o the pizza to put them on.

What MOST men's brains do with images we see is what is at the root of most CDing. All of those countless "other" sites confirm it.

And I could be wrong, but I am guessing that most of these sites that sell small canoe sized high heels, sell few if any flats in those same sizes.

Perhaps it's about 'cross dressing' and not the other stuff you mention because clothing and appearance is the most obvious power women have right now. We have power when we're attractive. Just as women covet positive masculine traits - you covet ours.

Just be warned - when we finally take over the world and lingerie has been replaced with granny pants, you might want to get your 'cross-expressing' up to scratch.

(Actually, I quite like lingerie, but I imagine granny pants are more practical for a world take-over) :)

I think that you put 'clothing' in one bucket, and left the other items, like jewelry, nail polish, perfume, hair, makeup, etc in 'other' buckets. I think they all belong in the same bucket.

Aren't these *all* forms of adornment? They have male & female versions of all of these products.

Taking on other mannerisms, such as your voice or how you walk, are the trickier ones to categorize. You are making a deliberate choice to change them, but those are the things least noticed (if you get them correct)

I wear female things to express those elements of my personality, but it is frequently a mix. Yesterday I was wearing a calf length brown denim skirt, white cami, a (matching) open flannel shirt and men's sandals. I had on bracelets, rings & mascara.

We have lots of different people here, and we all have different motivations for what we do. Figuring out our own specific ones is the interesting part :)

Bima's question got me wondering, how would someone who crossdresses manage to express themself in a nudist setting? I know when I CD I enjoy changing my shape, adding forms, wig, makeup, jewelry, color to nails, & etc. Take away the clothing, and much of that won't work (I'd probably use the makeup, color nails, use jewelry and try to make the most of my own hair -- but there would be no passing.). I'd still attempt to do what I could to express myself, but I suspect that type of stark reality would test our souls, and separate the men from the . . . . , well you get the idea.

Rhonda

Hi Rhonda,

Perhaps you could put on a wig and then sport some sandals with white socks as that would draw everyone's attention away from the obvious . . . "What was that woman thinking . . . who wears white socks with sandals' :)

Hugs

Isha

What you're actually pointing out is that the word 'cross-dresser' is a misnomer for a large group of so-called cross-dressers because they DO go for the whole package, e.g. body proportions, hair/makeup, verbal and non-verbal communication, etc. or at least further than just clothing. There are quite a few 'true' cross-dressers, i.e. those who wear women's clothing because it's women's clothing, but I would definitely support the motion to make up a new word for those who go for a full(er) cross-gender expression.

I've been thinking a bit about my youth recently and I actually think that I chose to dress and present myself in a masculine way because I was so feminine that I was routinely mistaken for a girl. I actually did not mind that when I was a young man or a boy but when I got a bit older, (and moved to the States), and got married ,and fought with my wife who accused me of being gay, and had children, I succumbed to the overwhelming and oppressive gender conditioning. I grew a mustache. I wore boring clothes. I sat with my knees apart. I swaggered. I thought about murdering people a lot. I presented as my idea of a man. I was hostile. I was dangerous. I was miserable.

Only in the last few years have I realized how very much damage I did to myself trying to be a gender that I am not. I did it because society says that what's between your legs determines your gender. It isn't but most people just say and believe what most people say and believe. Most people don't think about their gender. But I did and I stopped trying to be masculine. I relaxed into being who I am, which is neither masculine nor feminine but something in between. I don't identify as being a cross dresser. I was cross dressing when I was wearing only male clothes. I identify as non binary and femme but these are just terms to describe something that is really beyond words, which is identity. If you don't believe me ask yourself who you are, and then ask yourself if what you answered is more than a superficial and pretty inaccurate sketchy note about who you are. I'm not emulating a woman and I'm not emulating a man. I'm presenting my gender, the way I feel about where I am on the gender spectrum. I use cultural cues like make up and clothes to do this but also physical cues like walk, gestures and facial expression but the most significant aspect is internal. I don't think the clothing is any more important for me than the rest of the package. I don't see a man or a woman when I look in the mirror and I'm naked out of the shower. I see me.

Besides the obvious answer: Cultural expression (clothing) is so much easier to emulate than biological (surgical), the complete answer may be in a combination of both.

I believe that cross-dressing is a form of synesthesia, where activity in one sensory pathway leads to automatic, and involuntary experiences in a second sensory pathway. So while the majority of men can cross-dress and not feel anything special (except embarrassment), we, on the other hand, experience wonderful sensations: well-being, comfort, pleasure, gratification and bonding. The majority of population looks at us and thinks that we are delusional, suffering from psychological disorder, or just imagining our sensations. However, I believe it is biological. Our brains are hard wired through neural connections to release dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin and a host of other neurotransmitters when we cross-dress. Its just as if our brain interprets cross-dressing as actual contact with a female. It goes into action releasing neurotransmitters and those neurotransmitters produce the sensations we love. The general population cannot experience the same sensations because their brains don't share the same connections.

Once a cross-dresser does experience those "contact with a female" sensations, then he will often attempt to make the physical more congruous with the perceived. That is when we shave our legs, wear breast forms, use wigs and cosmetics and other pure biological expressions.

Because clothing is the most visual of the cues you mention. I have breasts. They are muscle rather than fat but I have them. I shave my legs but that is not purely feminine. I do so for biking as well. So much of what you wrote is nuance (voice, gestures, speech pattern, etc). Clothing (including jewelry) is very visual and not a nuance.

Cross-dressing is easy, all the others are in the too hard basket and not as expressive anyway. :)

Maybe they do but that list can tend to get pretty hefty, especially if we specialize in one or more of those things you mentioned. In that case it's just simpler to put most of it under the CD umbrella I think. :battingeyelashes::)

gee, i never saw a real female in the nude walking the street or in the mall.