"Things that make u feel like a woman." Really? Explain please-----

This thread was inspired by several posts in another thread by our female mods. I've been hanging around here for a long time. And, I've seen countless posts where dressers say that something or other, "made them feel like a woman".:battingeyelashes:

In all my dressing years I think I've resembled a woman many times. And, occasionally when men have come on to me they made me FEEL fem.:o

But, I've never, ever, been arrogant enuff to think I've felt like a woman! I dated and had girlfriends and a wife for 60 years. But, I NEVER understood them. So, how could I say I felt like one? I've met over 200's T's. Including some who had SRS. Only 2 in the lot seemed like females to me.:thumbsup:

If you've ever felt and said that, why? If you've never been a woman how could u know u feel like one?:eek:

I can't honestly say that I "felt like a woman," probably because I have to frame of reference to tell for sure. I have felt very feminine at times. Usually, it has to do with how the clothes feel on me, or a gentle breeze making the dress brush the nylons, or a special jiggle from the chest as I walk. Sometimes just brushing back my hair. Just little things.

I can't say I know what it feels like to be a woman. I also can't say I know what it feels like to be a man. I do know what it feels like to be me.

Excellent comment, Julie. I can't say, "I felt like a man", very often either, so I totally relate!:thumbsup:

Sherry's observation that we can't know what it is to truly feel like a woman is correct. What I think is however that we can share some of the experiences and physical feelings the GG's do.

Shaved legs and hose, a well made up face, putting on a soft flowing garment that feels good to wear. Feet that ache from wearing heels for too long. My guess is when we stand in front of a mirror in all our finery, our shape created by silicone and corsetry not mother nature, we still experience that moment of satisfaction of knowing you look good.

Then there's the matter of mannerisms. The walk, hand and facial gestures. How we modify our speech patterns to more resemble those of a GG. How we carry a handbag, get into and out of a car. Straightening hair, there's so many traits that we emulate that give the casual observer the impression that what they're seeing is a female.

And when doing all those thing becomes automatic, you do without thinking, then I think it's fair to say that at least in part, it's possible to feel womanly if not a woman.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.Its the best that any of us can do. Agree with your observation Sherry. As CDs its the closest we can get. I think the objective is to be and feel pretty as opposed to ugly or handsome.Males are never usually described as pretty, hence the craving for feminine validation.

The other day I made a 9 hour drive in leggings, and that felt good. Feel like a woman?? How would I even begin to know what that feels like? Might as well ask me what it feels like to be you.

For this crossdresser anyway, such a statement enhances the fantasy. No harm in that.

As I pondered your question, I realized this:

I know what it feels like to feel beautiful.
I know what it feels like to feel sexy.
I even know what it feels like to be the object of desire from suitors.

I do not know what it feels like to be a genetic female, capable of child bearing, who goes through a monthly cycle I am not able to even comprehend.

So if I ever said that know what it feels like to be a woman, I misspoke. But, it is fun to pretend.

Sandi

I think that is an astute observation, Sherry. The fact is no one can feel like someone else except in a general sense through empathy and similar perceptions. But even then it is only an approximation based on a perception and an interpretation. It may be close to the truth but it can never be the same because we are all individuals in the finest sense.

Gender is best defined in terms of behavioral traits and characteristics. Most traits and characteristics are pretty gender neutral in that both men and women exhibit them on a regular basis. But there are some that are more aligned with the part of the sexual identity that is not really sexual but associated with a sex. Thus some traits and characteristics are common in females and others are common to males. In general women are more graceful in their motions in that it is more fluid than is usually the case in men. A lot of that comes from the differences in how the male and female body is constructed. Women tend to be more flexible than men, in part, because their muscles are smaller but still quite strong. That creates a feeling or a perception that is constantly reinforced and thus becomes a part of the person's behavior which we view is connected to gender when it is really a part of the movement limitations that comes from how joints and muscles interact. Males and females are not constructed the same or they would be the same.

But a lot of traits and characteristics are learned early in life and so some men learn more feminine behaviors. But a lot of the defining traits we link to gender are characteristics in interaction behavior. These tend to be socially based and comes from learning to comply with social expectations.

This still does not go to the heart of it which seems to be in the neural networks that, although flexible through brain plasticity, are likely to be genetically determined in a very generalized sense. Thus we are all provided with certain generalized gender behavior patterns that useful and even necessary for males and females to successfully interact and form bonds so the species can persist. Research has shown that males can apparently be provided with more female-like patterns than the "normal" male. Thus the "I feel like a woman" is, in a sense, a real thing that we can individually perceived in our thinking patterns and reinforcement just increases the strength of those generalized patterns of behavior. But how much of it is genetically defined behavior and how much is learned? Why does a person prefer certain traits and characteristics that are customary in the opposite sex? Why does an inability to express oneself in the patterns of that which is customary in the opposite sex create a serious psychological disturbance that feels like something is wrong - gender dysphoria or pink fog?

These are questions that have not been answered and some may never be answered because the cause is due to the combination of many factors. However, the "I feel like a woman" is a real thing but may be more subconscious than conscious and that compels some to go far in expressing that sense of self to avoid the psychological disturbance caused by your brain reacting to an inconsistency. And if it is subconscious some may not even perceive its existence simply because it is not conscious. Much of a person's behavior is subconscious and we just do it.

So perhaps it would be more accurate to say, "I feel like what I interpret what a woman might feel like when expressing certain traits and characteristics because even though I am male I also have some version of the same traits and characteristics she has, but don't know why those are present in me when society tells me those should not be there." That thought generates the feeling which may or may not be like what a woman feels but is at least in the same ballpark based on the behavior it generates. Keep in mind, a woman cannot actually express what it feels like to be a woman even though she is one. She can only describe generalities and men can only do the same thing with respect to feeling like a man.

In short, it is really complicated and nobody has any firm and verified answers, but it is a real feeling even though it may not be exactly what a woman feels like. And because we can never actually feel what another person feels the reality of the feelings we have will likely never be explained with precision - only an approximation.

Sherry, It's true I don't know what it feels like to be a woman having never been one. I have been incredibly happy when I have perfected, what I believe to be, a particularly feminine look or worn a particularly silky dress. I love the feeling. I guess I have equated that feeling to feeling like a woman.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Helen_Highwater

Sherry's observation that we can't know what it is to truly feel like a woman is correct. What I think is however that we can share some of the experiences and physical feelings the GG's do.

Shaved legs and hose, a well made up face, putting on a soft flowing garment that feels good to wear. Feet that ache from wearing heels for too long. My guess is when we stand in front of a mirror in all our finery, our shape created by silicone and corsetry not mother nature, we still experience that moment of satisfaction of knowing you look good.

Then there's the matter of mannerisms. The walk, hand and facial gestures. How we modify our speech patterns to more resemble those of a GG. How we carry a handbag, get into and out of a car. Straightening hair, there's so many traits that we emulate that give the casual observer the impression that what they're seeing is a female.

And when doing all those thing becomes automatic, you do without thinking, then I think it's fair to say that at least in part, it's possible to feel womanly if not a woman.

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Of course we can look like women and act like women, Helen. I can and do. Some of us can even speak like women and pass as women. I'm sure MANY trans believe they feel like women. But, do they really? When u think about it, aren't we simple enjoying our own private fantasy as Kris suggests? :heehee:

I see no harm in that, by the way. Isn't self delusion how we all manage to survive this thing called life at all?:devil:

An interesting thread, and I'm happy to see that no one has made any silly or stupid comments. So far.

As an AMAB transwoman, I cannot say what it FEELS to be a woman, because there are things that I will never be able to experience.

I CAN, however, relate that I have experienced some things that ciswomen go through. Like being catcalled, 'Mansplained', and talked over in mid-sentence. I've also had the very scary experience of being made to feel unsafe and in danger, several times! Simply because I live and present as a woman.

All my life, my emotions have been closer to the surface than the 'average' male. Casual comments, made by others, tend to stay with me and gnaw at my center.

For those who claim to "feel like a woman" simply because you put on stockings, panties, a bra and a skirt/dress, I have to ask if you "feel" like a mechanic because you've put on a set of coveralls? Do you "feel" like a farmer, just because you put on a straw hat? Feel like a socialite, because you are dressed in a tuxedo? Do you really, really, truly think that apparel determines gender?

In my heart, my mind, and my soul, I KNOW that I am a woman, and I mourn the fact that I will never be able to experience all that a cisborn woman can.

I don't come close to feeling like a women-no idea how that could done since I've been "male" in all of the common acceptances for all my life. How does one "feel" that? No idea. Even some one who feels like they are in the wrong presentation of what they should be still has no idea- no matter how good their gender presentation is. I enjoy the whole thing-clothing, cosmetics, jewelry and much more- but I am still male. And even surgery while changing the whole picture, wouldn't change what I was born as. To look female is one thing, to be female is quite another.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Helen_Highwater

Sherry's observation that we can't know what it is to truly feel like a woman is correct. What I think is however that we can share some of the experiences and physical feelings the GG's do.

Shaved legs and hose, a well made up face, putting on a soft flowing garment that feels good to wear. Feet that ache from wearing heels for too long. My guess is when we stand in front of a mirror in all our finery, our shape created by silicone and corsetry not mother nature, we still experience that moment of satisfaction of knowing you look good.

Then there's the matter of mannerisms. The walk, hand and facial gestures. How we modify our speech patterns to more resemble those of a GG. How we carry a handbag, get into and out of a car. Straightening hair, there's so many traits that we emulate that give the casual observer the impression that what they're seeing is a female.

And when doing all those thing becomes automatic, you do without thinking, then I think it's fair to say that at least in part, it's possible to feel womanly if not a woman.

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You are talking about physical things, clothing, make-up, appearance, visceral and superficial.

Does a ciswoman 'feel like a man' because she puts on a pair of jeans and fore sakes make-up? If not, then why would a cisman 'feel like a woman', simply because he puts on a pair of panties?

Great thread Doc, I definitely understand where you're coming from. I can say I have never really felt like a woman simply because I'm not one physically, but I do know that I feel feminine whenever I slip into beautiful lingerie for bedtime after a hot bubble bath. I'm probably also one of the few CD's here who has a boyfriend, which really makes me feel fem especially when we're intimate. All of that said I know that I am still a male underneath it all so even when feeling fem while dressed I never actually stop feeling like a male which I believe is what doc is getting at here. Would definitely be hard to really feel like one without *being* one.

I NEVER meant that a CD/trans couldn't or shouldn't feel feminine. And, certainly MORE feminine than when you're in drab.:battingeyelashes:
After all, who's to dispute YOUR feelings?:straightface:

But, I think claiming to feel, "like a woman", is over the top!:eek:

Isn't there a quandary here? I think most of us admit we can't know what it is to feel like a woman however how do we know that what we feel isn't what women are feeling?

When I was growing up schools taught boys wood and metal working, girls did needle craft and cookery. Girls were given dolls and prams to play with, boys cowboy pistols and bikes. Girls were expected to keep house and raise the kids, boys to go and be the breadwinner. Behaviour had been learned, roles to be played out, engrained into the sexes for centuries and it's only been in the last few decades that things have changed somewhat. Toys are now far more gender neutral in fact many parents actively opt for gender neutral in the way they raise their kids perhaps more so for those with girls in an effort to given their daughters the best chance of success in their adult working life.

Access to the work place, equality of pay and progression. Many things have now shifted the playing field.

That's not to say that a good many of the preconceived notions of boys and girls don't still exists but the lines are becoming more blurred.

So while there are still those girly girls and boyish boys coming through there's a growing cohort of both girls and boys who's differences are less well defined. The boundaries of sexuality are blurred with more prepared to be openly Gay or Bi-sexual and to act in ways that previous generations would have considered abnormal in terms of their place in the order of things.

And here's my point. Many of us are latecomers to the game but we're learning some of those things that were once the exclusive domain for the GG's.
I will argue that some of those things that society once took as being the exclusive built in, hard wired traits of being a female were/are in fact learned, not predetermined at birth. When we too learn them we start to share a common ground, to have shared experiences shared feelings.

So perhaps what we should be discussing is the difference between the statements "I feel like a woman" as a social construct as opposed to "I feel like a female", a product of mother nature.

Helen, read what Jazzmin wrote above. Because I believe her reply applies to both of your posts.

And, Char said this in another thread, "Why is it then that when a woman wears a man's T shirt and jeans she's not aroused or saying, "I feel like a man?"

And, the words "woman" and "female" r interchangeable!:battingeyelashes:

However, I DO agree u make a good point regarding the varying degrees of female/maleness we T's experience. So, if u wish to say, "I feel 1/2 or partly, like a gay or bi woman"? I will support u!:thumbsup:

i had a series with this in the past, it was in response to describing how it felt to be gender fluid....very difficult....but it made me think to propose these questions....just wanted to share this while folks answer sherries query....

https://www.crossdressers.com/forums...+to+be+a+women


https://www.crossdressers.com/forums...eel+to+be+male

All the years I have been dressing I have never thought that I have felt like a woman. I do however feel different than in drab. I also think as a man I appreciate the clothes more than a woman might. When I told my sister about my love for female clothes, I stated that dressed or not I was still her brother. Her reply was " whenever I wear trousers I don't feel like a man"

I could argue that I do know how it feels to be a woman, since I've been able to recall episodes from past lives. Some of them were wonderful, some of them were horrible.
But I suspect that this won't have much believe-ability with you folks in here.
SO- Instead, I'll say this:


I'd say that for at least some of us, the question is sort of putting the cart before the horse.

I know that for me at least, I don't put on something feminine and have it make me "feel like a woman." No item of feminine attire has that power over me.
Instead, it's when my need to express that deep down inside I AM a woman, that I put on something to express that part of me.

It's not what I wear.
Nor is it how I act, walk, move, speak, or any other "outer" thing.
It's just what I feel, no - KNOW, in my heart of hearts.
I can't explain it, and I can't defend it with any evidence or point to any "proof."
It just is.

And to flip the script for just a moment, can anyone explain what it is that makes a GG "feel like a woman?"
Childbirth? Proms? Feeling vulnerable when walking alone? Fancy dresses? Whatever you name, I'll bet that there are women who have never experienced it, but still "feel" every bit a woman.
Maybe they "just know" too?

I think the problem is the word, 'like'.
How about, "I felt as I believe a woman would feel." Or, "It's just my female side."

Of course we are assigning M or F traits to mannerisms that we mimic.

Doc, when you are Sherry, do you do any of the following:

-get so emotionally caught up that you let him make the decision?
-throw logic out the window and rely on feelings for life decisions?
-nag someone about having children?
-think a Corvette would be OK if it's the right color.

Folks, the very few fully transitioned folks I've met felt happy, sad, excited, sleepy, naughty. etc.

"I felt just like a woman!"
Actually, it's a fun proclamation of happiness and achievement and harmless.

Excellent, SaraLin. We do things because we think about them before hand and that is the switch that turns on some kind of expression of what we are feeling. But it is easy to perceive it as what we do as a part of the motivation that comes from the initial thought or feelings actually resulting in the feelings.

The fact is, as the neuroscientists point out, there is no such thing as a conscious decision. We are consciously aware of only a small bit of what goes on in the brain that results in choices based on evidence, perception and past history that is stored in memory. The non-conscious brain which is maybe 95% of your brain sends a message to the consciousness center located near your left temple of a decision that has been made with a request to pay attention of implement it consciously. Kind of a work order. But because you are only aware of what goes on in the consciousness center it results in a sense that your consciousness made the decision. Sorry, but it did not.

Nevertheless there is an interplay at this point between your consciousness and the rest of the brain and that involves high level reasoning which the pre-frontal cortex is really good at doing but the rest of the brain can't do. The choice made by the rest of the brain can be modified as a result of a reasoned examination of the action. All of this occurs, in most cases, within just a few seconds and then action is directed to the rest of the body to implement the decision or choice in its final form. The "feeling like a woman" is part of the sensation that results from all of this and provides the justification for what follows. In us that feeling is likely a result of having some neural networks that configured like those networks are normally configured in females. So, it is a bit of what goes on in a female's brain but in both instances it is a result of a fundamental genetic configuration of the brain that becomes highly modified by living such that the final result is, in some ways similar in a male that has those networks and a female who has those and whole pile more of that style of networks. But these networks are always shifting around as the brain adapts and learns from the experience of living within a particular context. Thus there are no female brains or male brains, there are just brains and each one is unique because the brain is so highly adaptive to learn and do those things that work best within our life context. It is all a part of that mysterious process of brain plasticity. It is very logical but it is also very adaptive.

But even after the work order is sen the resulting action can change as a result of feedback from the senses that tells the brain what is resulting from the implementation of the choice. Thus you can change your mind mid-stream, but even that is done more or less by the entire brain and not just the conscious brain. The fact that we are unaware of all that goes on in making a choice and are only aware of the final result is part of the brain's division of labor in perceiving and acting on what is perceived in the environment within the context of your brain's configuration and neural networks. It is vastly more complicated than it appears to be. Many of the things we do do not even go through the consciouness center - they are just done. The signaling in the brain moves at about 1800 miles per hour, so the time from sensing something to acting on it is extremely brief. But how does the brain "know" where to direct these choices and steps in making these choices? Big mystery.

So the sense of "feeling like" this or that is very complex and almost always precedes an action. It takes much less than a second for most things and a few seconds for very complex things. But once in awhile the great reasoning power of the pre-frontal cortex and the consciousness center can override a decision made elsewhere which results in us not actually doing something that to the rest of the brain looked like a great idea. Your brain is a very busy place even when you are asleep. The mystery is how this mass of cellular tissue came to be able to do this with such precision and, most of the time, it does it automatically.

So, if you are male, the decision to put on a dress is something unique to us and to do that with no discomfort is also unique and personal. That cannot be just a choice but must be something that is unseen and located very deep in the "program" our brain uses to fit our behavior into the environment in which we live. But the process is no different with a person who "decides" wearing a dress is "not something I am going to do" if the person is male and a male who feels joy in doing that. So something in the background is causing this difference between us and a cisgender person who would not even think of doing what is natural to us. Now there is a mystery.

Probably the same process is done in a woman's brain that is done in a male's brain, but each act within a different context. The context may be what causes both the similarity between women and some men, or the other way around, or within a cisgender person to follow the more common path which is neither right or wrong but just is one path of a multitude of possible pathways that form as a result of just living and sensing the world around us and finding that which in each individual creates a more or less comfortable personality that defines and distinguishes you from everyone else. "It's magic!" There are no answers as to how, but the why is clear - it works for you better than any other path you have followed so far. So that is what you do.

Addendum: Bingo, Carla.

Long before this site existed my wife and I had "The Talk." I tried some of the BS phrases that seem so prevalent among cross dressers. Specifically, I told my wife something to the effect of "try to connect with my inner woman." Not exactly those words, but close enough. My wife's retort? 'When you can have a baby, then you can tell me about connecting with your inner woman!" or something close to that quote. Having been at the delivery of our children, she has a point. That's about the only experience I think I cannot experience.