Thoughts on blurring of gender fashion

After reading a lot of previous posts of reaching certain milestones or indeed losing grip on the slippery slope depending on your viewpoint, I?d like to put forward my experience and thoughts from what I feel is certainly not unique, but less represented, in the hope of hearing similar stories or opinions.


So put simply, I underdress quite frequently now and I have also taken a few brave, public steps in full, but not excessive, female clothing (skinny jeans, knitted jumper, low heel boots) BUT here?s where things get complicated...
I do not wish to act or pretend to be fully feminine. i.e. no wig or makeup and certainly no ?alter ego? name. I?m very happy being male and do not see cross dressing as a route to transitioning my gender, yet expressing my feminine side as a man is something I enjoy.

I believe personally I will (hope to) reach a peak of cross dressing or indeed have an almost unisex wardrobe that will completely blur what cross dressing is. Much in the same way as women wearing men?s attire but not pretending to be male, only expressing a masculine side.

Would love to hear your thoughts or questions

I have had this wish that I could walk into a clothing store and there is no women's or mens no boy or girl there is just clothes. Skirts, pants, dresses, shirts, gowns or ties it does not matter. I could go and get what ever I wanted to wear. I like dresses and that is what I would like to wear all the time no matter how I am presenting.

You need to understand women wearing what you are calling men's clothes is a flawed perception.
Those clothes are "male cut" or "boyfriend style" and are designed and marketed for women so technically they are women's clothes.
Therefore they are not crossdressing.
I and many others have been wearing nothing but womens clothes in guy mode for a very long time its nothing new.

Blue, if u mean that women r wearing more sloppy, less sexy clothing heavy on pants? If so, I unhappily agree.:thumbsdn:

If u mean men's clothing is looking more fem? I don't see that here in SoCal.:straightface:

If I am reading you correctly, you want to wear what you want, when you want, without people getting upset. Gender clothing lines are getting blurred, but that can depend on where you live. Does it really matter if one person refers to themselves as a CD'er and another doesn't. People should have the freedom to wear the clothing that they enjoy wearing. Unfortunately some people in our western culture have restrictive thoughts and views. So wear what you want and see the responses that you get, and then act accordingly.

In Connecticut gender expression in the workplace falls under the sexual harassment protections. Which means that CT is one of the most progressive states in this regard. If necessary, you can get help from the State government. More importantly, medium and large companies have this issue on their radar as a result of recent laws.

I think there are two guys in the building who would prefer that I wouldn't present as feminine as I do, but they can't say anything, as I'm far too valuable to the company. Someone has to do the actual work, and I do that with amazing speed and accuracy. The GGs just smile.

Marion

Sorry to butt in here but I think you will be able to do that . Alot of the males who are friends with my younger kids late teens to upper 20s wear all kinds of clothes and do not care . No one cares . We are all in the arts and were in Seattle as well as now in the Los Angeles area and I see painted nails, make up and skirts almost on a daily basis .
I am surrounded by actors , musicians and artists of all types though but the young people wear what they want and I see MANY young men express their fem side very easily the way they want too . Totally not a big deal and WAY healthier than some of these folks ( the alter ego stuff ) that live in fantasy land .
My late companion was this way and s/he was in his early 50's when s/he died . Males like David Bowie Marc Bolan and the like were also big influences in my life as well .
It can certainly be done .

Having been around the rock & roll scene for years I dressed in girls clothes back in the 80s and still do to some extent being more feminine clothes.
My close friends are very conservative and they don't care what I wear because its not all that important a thing to worry about with them.
You that claim to live in an ultra progressive areas and tout that as a special attraction to your area well here in backwoods hillbilly Kentucky we have the same work laws you guys do and the same protections.
My city has a fairness ordinance so trans and gay people are treated the same as everyone else and we all get along just fine.
The general public here pays very little attention to trans people and treats us as they would anyone else.
If someone claims country folks hate trans people they either don't actually know any country people or they just listen to LGBT claims that aren't factual.

I suppose if a man wants to wear a floral print sun dress, sandals and hosiery to mask ultra ashen legs there is nothing to stop him. As with Marian the state of Washington allows gender expression and its covered by hate crime and discrimination statutes. There is the matter of perception of others about who he may be. Societal norms and all that. I wonder about blurring what is construed as a "male side" and a "female side." My granddaughter grabbed some of my flannel shirts and goes thrifting and does buy men's wear and thinks nothing of it. I know she is not thinking about her "male side." It's the fact the clothes are cheaper than women's clothing. There are MIAD's on this site who do wear women's dresses while sporting beards. My wife ditches her jeans when it gets really warm and dons flowing dresses because a dress is a lot cooler than jeans. Maybe some day it will become normal for a husband and wife to have matching sun dresses while strolling on the beach. That may not occur. I think men who are more apt to dominant women in all segments of society/work may not want to "blur" the lines between men and women.

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Originally Posted by Tracii G

You that claim to live in an ultra progressive areas and tout that as a special attraction to your area well here in backwoods hillbilly Kentucky we have the same work laws you guys do and the same protections.
If someone claims country folks hate trans people they either don't actually know any country people or they just listen to LGBT claims that aren't factual.

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I was born on a ranch in Texas in 1962 and I did escape from there but lived around Austin mostly and it was always very permissive there also I just have not lived in Tx in a very long time . So I did not originate on the west coast by any stretch , I just like it better .

The whole concept of "Unisex Clothing" is actually a gigantic scam. It is code for women get to continue to wear men's (or men's style) clothing along with traditional female garb such as skirts, dresses, pantyhose and heels etc. with no eyebrows raised or awkward comments made. For men, it is generally business as usual..."drab" in both senses of the word.

When was the last time anyone ever saw a store ad for "men's" or "unisex" skirts, dresses, blouses, panties or bras that were designed with men (and their particular body shapes) in mind outside of retailers geared specifically towards the crossdresser or transgender community? "Womenswear" marketed towards them the way "menswear" is marketed to women? "Girlfriend shorts"? "Girljeans"? "The Girlfriend Jacket?" "Borrowed From The Girls"? Nah!...didn't think so, either...

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Originally Posted by Maid_Marion

I'm far too valuable to the company.

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So you fall into the Dennis Rodman level of worker, being able to show up in public in a dress, but being able to keep your job because you're so very good at it. For the rest of us 'average' workers, that's not reality. Many employers will find a way to get rid of us and come up with some other reason rather than the one that would start a discrimination lawsuit.

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

The whole concept of "Unisex Clothing" is actually a gigantic scam. It is code for women get to continue to wear men's (or men's style) clothing along with traditional female garb such as skirts, dresses, pantyhose and heels etc. with no eyebrows raised or awkward comments made. For men, it is generally business as usual..."drab" in both senses of the word.

When was the last time anyone ever saw a store ad for "men's" or "unisex" skirts, dresses, blouses, panties or bras that were designed with men (and their particular body shapes) in mind outside of retailers geared specifically towards the crossdresser or transgender community? "Womenswear" marketed towards them the way "menswear" is marketed to women? "Girlfriend shorts"? "Girljeans"? "The Girlfriend Jacket?" "Borrowed From The Girls"? Nah!...didn't think so, either...

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Levis tried that a few years ago with a few mens jeans. They called them the ex girlfriend jeans or some thing like that. They had either a very skinny woman model them, or it was a man. Hard to tell in the photos. But they didn't last very long. Maybe a year or two.

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Originally Posted by sometimes_miss

So you fall into the Dennis Rodman level of worker, being able to show up in public in a dress, but being able to keep your job because you're so very good at it. For the rest of us 'average' workers, that's not reality. Many employers will find a way to get rid of us and come up with some other reason rather than the one that would start a discrimination lawsuit.

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I'm the same.

Someone even attempted to get me fired. Sent pictures of me to the owner of the company I work for. Didn't work, I'm out, that and there is no way they are going to fire me.

Besides I have another job waiting, and yes they know.

I represent male at work wearing all woman's clothing, with one exception, a company t-shirt. My hair pulled back in a ponytail, no nail polish or obvious make-up.

I learned to touch type in a 1970s high school class that was mostly female. Which gave me a huge advantage in my studies and work life.

Marion

You can see feminine male clothes on fashion runways and sometimes even buy them, but while wearing them, most people will still see you as a crossdresser or at least think you're gay, even if you're not. It's always a slippery slope, if you want to wear female clothes and can backfire in any moment, if you're not careful when or how you wear it. I'm still in a closet and thinking a lot what kind of female clothes I could potentially wear in male mode without outing myself, but didn't find many items and none I could wear in most delicate moments like at work. It's not easy and adequate female clothes men can wear are few and far between.

It was my wife who pushed me onto the the slippery slope of dressing in women's clothes. I brought up that I was likely TG before we got married. She was worried that I wasn't dressing properly for work as I was heading into middle age. There just isn't any clothes for small men. Which is one of the reasons why they dress so poorly. So, she suggested I buy women's shirts that fit properly. I had no trouble buying them on ebay. I'd find sellers who would list the measured sizes. They fit wonderfully, as long as they were for women. If they were for men the sleeves are too long. And while I was at it I started buying VS PJs. It wasn't until a few years after she passed that I realized that not only do XS tops fit me just fine, but so do size 2 shorts!

Marion

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Originally Posted by Tracii G

You need to understand women wearing what you are calling men's clothes is a flawed perception.
Those clothes are "male cut" or "boyfriend style" and are designed and marketed for women so technically they are women's clothes.
Therefore they are not crossdressing.
I and many others have been wearing nothing but womens clothes in guy mode for a very long time its nothing new.

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I don’t know how many times this has to be pointed out on these forums. Just because it’s the same style as a man would wear (e.g. pants, or a button-down shirt) does not mean it’s “men’s” clothes. They are cut for women’s bodies which tend to have different proportions than men’s.

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Originally Posted by Micki_Finn

I don?t know how many times this has to be pointed out on these forums. Just because it?s the same style as a man would wear (e.g. pants, or a button-down shirt) does not mean it?s ?men?s? clothes. They are cut for women?s bodies which tend to have different proportions than men?s.

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Micki_Finn, this is so true, and even if a CD'er could purchase women's clothing that were made for a man, I doubt that they would be bought. It's not just the clothing, but the feminine mystique that goes with it. I have nylon t-shirts, but they are not the same as the slips and camisoles that I wear. Is it all in our heads...probably! Even in threads that talk about the difference between kilts and skirts, a skirt is still different. Maybe a kilt could take second place for someone who wants to go out in public, and help them get over any fears, but they are still kilts. Whether we care to admit it or not, both males and females are slaves to fashion and conformity. We CD'ers just don't fit in the way we wish could fit in to society.

I don't want a unisex world. I like the differences. I wear old style converse chuck taylors on a regular basis. I wore them in the '70's, before they were unisex. I don't hate that they're unisex. But, I can't see that Ked's will ever become unisex. I haven't bought them yet, but they're on the list, mostly because they're not unisex.

I wish dressing were a little bit less drama filled, but not really wanting it to be mainstreamed.

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Originally Posted by sometimes_miss

So you fall into the Dennis Rodman level of worker, being able to show up in public in a dress, but being able to keep your job because you're so very good at it. For the rest of us 'average' workers, that's not reality. Many employers will find a way to get rid of us and come up with some other reason rather than the one that would start a discrimination lawsuit.

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Right, for those of us who live in "at will" employment states, they can fire you for anything or nothing at all. You can have all the anti discrimination laws you want, but if you are "at will" they are practically meaningless.

In New Zealand back in the 60's, jeans were "men's clothes", made for hard working men.

Once TV arrived and we saw American women wearing jeans, a lot of the girls raided men's stores and bought men's 501 jeans (ie crossdressing)
My mum and dad hated it and thought the girls looked rough like farm hands and band my sister from wearing them.
The manufactures saw (or maybe the retailers saw) $$$ as a new market opened up with women's lib and jeans cut and tailored for women started appearing on shelves (bell bottoms).
My folks still thought lowly of women in jeans or pants, thought they were trying to be (or copy) men
In the 80's, women started moving in the corporate world, so men's suits were copied (badly at first) and eventually modified for women.
Today, my daughters still borrow my "men's" shirts, tee-shirts and jumpers (tops without darts for women's chests), designed to fit a mans body, so technically cross dressing.
Certain fashion designers have tried to launch men's skirts and while I would love one, market forces means there's no profit to be made in the manufacture in 2020 (except Kilts and Lavalava).

My point being, men used to have make up and certain clothing styles before women, so as to cross dressing we have to ask ourselves WHEN & WHERE, 2,000BC (Egypt), 1960's (New Zealand), 2020 (America)

I see myself as a mix of male and female which is why I like the non-binary label. Clothes wise, I love skirts and dresses but otherwise have no problem mixing and matching male and female clothes most of the time and usually one piece of jewelry. I don't wear makeup or fake tits or shave my legs or tuck but I did grow my hair out, shave my face like 4 days a week, and have painted toenails most of the time. Overall, I just like to pick and choose what I like regardless of gender.

The fashion industry is all about, "Everything you own now is out. What's in is the things we are offering you for the next two weeks." I think unisex clothing is gross. I once saw talk show host Phil Donahue wearing a skirt designed for men. Picture a pair of pants with one very wide leg hole instead of two. You can't unsee that. Fortunately, it didn't last longer than that one episode.

I want to live in a world where, if you want a feminine presentnation, that's okay. But don't try to make one gender look more like the other. More diversity and freedom of expression, not less