Is how kids are brought up seriously damaging to CD's?

[battybattybats]

I've been considering the issues of why most CDs are in the closet, often well into marriages before they are able to come out to their wives if at all.

Why is that so? Usually we answer 'because society isn't accepting of CDs'...

That sounds logical but is it really how it works? Do we at whatever point we start CDing, from 3-4 through to teens, think to ourselves: 'Yup, this is who I am, but gee i better not tell anyone as society isn't accepting'?

I think that usually we are all well aware that it's taboo before we try on our first piece of womens clothing. Certainly as we see here many of us struggle daily with the reality that we are crossdressers.

From the very beginning of our lives we have been living ina gender-coded world. Colours, styles, toys, books, tv shows, clothes... almost in every case from baby to teen we have gender coded things. Cribs and mobiles and wallpaper and posters and comics... almost every single thing is gender coded.

And that coding is segregated. It's made clear that people are not suppossed to like the things from the other gender code. When we see examples of people doing so they are usually mocked or derided. It's made clear to boys growing up that 'throw like a girl' or 'act like a girl' are serious insults, as is Sissy.

Often conformity to the boy part of the code is enforced through violence or threats of violence, often enough that has even come from parents who considered it important to 'toughen up' their boys.

We get no role models of people crossing the gender line, we get no messages of acceptability of crossing the gender line. If we see or hear of it at all it's as a negative.

Is it any wonder most crossdressers live in, or pass through, intense fear and shame and guilt? Is it any wonder that we hide the full reality of being crossdressers even from ourselves?

Some can handle it better than others... but that is true of all things.

I think that the way we grow up is quite literally abusive. Not always intentionally so but abusive nonetheless. And that it abuses not just transgender kids but everyone else too. I think it is because of this that society struggles so much to accept us, that family and friends struggle so much to accept, that wives struggle so much and that CDs themselves struggle so much.

I think that to judge ourselves, to judge one another and to deal with the issues of CDing in marriages fairly we will have to accept that we have been abused. That it effects most of us profoundly emotionally and psychologically.

And that to get societies acceptance and ensure future generations will not suffer as badly as we then we will have to raise the public awareness of crossdressing.

Not just in our imediate streets and shopping malls and neighbourhoods by being out etc, though when any ne of us is strong enough to do so it definately helps, but by getting the subject more, and importantly better, media exposure!

The next generation of teens have the advantage of the gender fluifity in some anime... but thats certainly not enough, just better. TS and CD teens still struggle with being TG.

So do you think I'm right? What are your views on the subject?

[docrobbysherry]

I have one teen just starting high school. And another who is 22.

The 22 y/o attended a progresive private high school. She had openly gay friends. That she said were treated well by everyone there, as far as she knew.

The younger one attends a public high school and has indicated that the the teachers have said that being gay is ok, on a number of occassions. Altho she makes it sound like the kids aren't as accepting as my older child's school was.

I'm talking about "gays", not TG folks. Which I have not discussed with my children other to see if they understood, had known any, or heard anything about them from others at their schools. BOTH had heard little or nothing, and seemed to feel there was something the matter with such folks! And I never even got to the part about men dressing up in ladies clothes!

I think the "pervy" aspect of dressing may prevent many from getting too deeply into discussions with their kids. It does with me, anyway. And my sense of guilt from CDing, mostly comes from that, also!
And I can't shake this feeling deep inside, that there MUST be something wrong with me to want to dress!

[Joy Carter]

I'd say you pretty much hit it on the nail head Batty. (OMG we agree ! LoL) To look at me most wouldn't belive that inside I'm a woman. I've always been this way. I talk to a lot of trans people on line. And yes they for the most part are very young. Most are young adults. Very few are of my age who have transitioned. Most in my age group have the same feelings as I have. Fear. Fear about how were are perceived by others. Fear in losing friends and most importantly our spouses.

With having the "big talk" with my spouse. She cried, and was angry. She wanted to know why I didn't tell her from the beginnings. I was seventeen when we met. And like everyone else, I didn't know. I had no information, let alone know anyone else who felt (was) this way.

If I was seventeen today, and have the information I do now, I'd be more content with myself and who I am. Would I transition ? That's a tough question, as I'm very attracted to women. Since I can't change who I am. And having finaly found out who I am. I'm more at ease with who I am. I'm more able to balance the two me's.

I'm sorry this sounds like it's all about me. But I know many of you are like me.

Thanks Batty

[Jess_cd32]

An ex GF of mine had a brother who seemingly had some fem traits from what she told me. She said her father would mock him constantly calling him 'milktoast' and such. Like you said, trying to 'toughen him up' through verbal abuse. She told me how it really hurt this poor kids feelings, but thats ignorance in a nutshell. I'm positive he's still trying to deal with the effects of those comments directed at him.

I've endured verbal abuse my entire life from my father, now he's old and I just let it all go, its not worth holding a grudge against him. I amazingly have alot of self confidence regardless of all that was said, but some of my family members weren't so lucky, and I see the effects still from that in how they feel about themselves

I could only imagine how my life would have been if he knew I was a cd

[SherylynJade]

I think what kept me in the closet as long as it did was how I was treated by my family when I was caught (several times). It was always that I was weird, if I keep it up I'll be sent to a mental hospital, keep it up and you'll be sent to live with your mother (whom I still don't have a close relationship with) and etc. etc. etc.

[ChibiKaiju]

I"m jealous Jess, I spent so many years blocking out and ignoring my dad that it's just second nature now...even though I'm trying to get a half-decent relationshop. I'm not even sure which of us just doesn't get it.

What I'm getting from batty here is that growing up is just abusive, as our parents and grandparents had gender role smashed into their head (literally in some cases) so when we don't fit this mold they get frustrated. And I guess when you spend your whole life thinking sometihng its hard to change that habit. And as horrible as it is to say, we really just have to keep on until the old ways die out so they aren't an influence. This generation does have some advantages, being that it is more available through the media that even if an individual doesn't agree with it they atleast know its no different than what they do in their lives

[JoAnne Wheeler]

This is a great post - I truly hope that life is better for all those Crossdressers

who will be born in the future than those of us who have had to endure the

past intolerance, lack of understanding, ignorance, discrimination, and

humiliation that we have faced by Society, our families and our Spouses.


JoAnne Wheeler

[Kate Simmons]

History has proven that the majority of humanity has little concern for how it treats certain parts of itself. The machine kept going with little regard for the concerns of individuals. Recently, however, the machine has been shown to be faulty and indeed more fragile than anyone really thought. That being the case, we may be part of the efforts to rebuild it. Here is where the opportunity comes in and how we demonstrate who we are and what we are made of. The old ways no longer work and will have to give way to doing things smarter and better. How much of that will deal with who we are as people? Only we can determine that.

[kellycan27]

I think that the way kids are brought up definetly has a negitive effect on crossdressers, as well as race, and religion, and just about anything anyone does differently than someone else.

[Leslie Langford]

I, too, agree with what you are postulating, batty, but I believe that the gender coding goes far deeper than you are indicating, and that it is largely one-sided.

Like it or not, we still live in what is essentially a male-dominated, partiarchial world whose origins go back to perhistoric days. The role of the male in those days ended up being to forage, hunt, and provide the meat-derived protein from the animals that he killed in order to sustain his mate and his offspring, since we all stated off as carnivores. And while he did that, he also fought off the sabre-toothed tigers and other predators that were threatening his family unit by virtue of his greater physical strength and innate testosterone-fuelled aggressivness. The burden of both bearing and nurturing his offspring to propagate the species fell largely to the females as a consequence, who gravitated more towards the primitive domestic duties required of them. And so, his aggressiveness and the corresponding physical strength available to the male to assert his dominance over the female became the hallmark of both our species and most others, and somewhere along the way, this became seen as being "superior".

This mind-set has followed us throughout the ages, so being male or acting like a male became the gold standard. So to yor point, batty, for a male to act in a feminine or "girly" manner is seen to be taking a step backwards and to be avoided at all costs, whereas girls are encouraged to act more like boys and are rewarded accordingly when they do. Tomboys good. Sissy boys bad.

To this day, few fathers are thrilled if their sons excel at say, embroidery, or putting together an attractive flower arrangement, and the mothers are usually accomplices in dissuading such "girly" behaviour. However, should a daughter learn how to change the oil on a car or make the hockey team and become their star goalie - well that's a cause for celebration and "high-fives" all around.

Even for women nowadays, it is often seen as a negative to act or be considered "girly", but woe be to the man who questions her inherent femininity dispite the mixed signals she may be giving off. And above all, make sure you still hold the door, offer your seat on a bus, and don't forget to compliment her on every conceivable occasion even as all the affirmative action programs in place facilitate her rightful place in society, redress past wrongs, and leave the man floundering in her wake.

The sumliminal mesages are all around us. That segment of the fashion industry that serves women thrives on promoting styles such as "menswear", "boyshorts", and the "boyfriend jacket", and who can forget the faux male attire that defined the "Annie Hall" look that actress Diane Keaton promoted back in the 1970's. Then there was Marlene Dietrich who popularized wearing pants with that iconic "womens" tuxedo look in her glory days in the the 1930's and 1940's. More recently, we have rock singer Avril Lavigne who raided her Dad's closet and co-opted his ties to wear along with her T-shirts, camouflage pants, and combat boots in creating that instantly recognizeable "sk8er boi" look at the start of her career. And who among us whose SO's had our children didn't at one point or another see them help themselves to our shirts to wear during part of their pregnancies since they were so "comfy" (as if true maternity tops weren't?).

The fact that there is a double standard at play when it comes to gender coding and gender roles is beyond dispute, and society is still far more permissive in allowing females to push the gender envelope without negative reprecussions. It is no wonder that we male crossdressers are still so closeted in most instances, but the irony is that it wasn't always so.

Back in the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries, the males participated along with the women in wearing powdered wigs, make-up, high heels, and lace trimmed blouses and collars along with tights, stockings, pantaloons, and shoes with big, "femmy" buckles or slouchy "pirate" boots. And yet, the males (at least the European version) were still "manly" enough to conquer, subjugate, and colonize evey continent outside of Asia (Indian sub-contintent excepted) despite this foppish style of dress.

Where did we go so wrong that for a man to wear a skirt, dress, pantyhose, and high heels is such a big deal to so many nowadays, including our own, brainwashed, pathetic selves?

[MissConstrued]

There is still a generalised assumption that people will fit into the binary pattern

That assumption still holds true, because the majority still fit into that pattern more or less happily. I see no reason to tear down a whole society because a minority does not fit the general rule.

That's not to say that we can't add a few more categories, and integrate them into the whole. But the notion that we need to somehow destroy "gender" as a "social construct" because some of us are square pegs in round holes is absurd.

It's like politics. Most Americans seem happy defining themselves as "Republican" or "Democrat," but for those who don't fit those narrow platforms, there are other parties. In perhaps a sign of the times, third parties are growing. The misfits are uniting.

Batty -- that's my answer to your question, too.

[jruiz]

That assumption still holds true, because the majority still fit into that pattern more or less happily. I see no reason to tear down a whole society because a minority does not fit the general rule.

That's not to say that we can't add a few more categories, and integrate them into the whole. But the notion that we need to somehow destroy "gender" as a "social construct" because some of us are square pegs in round holes is absurd.

It's like politics. Most Americans seem happy defining themselves as "Republican" or "Democrat," but for those who don't fit those narrow platforms, there are other parties. In perhaps a sign of the times, third parties are growing. The misfits are uniting.

Batty -- that's my answer to your question, too.

Agree 100%

Society behaves in a certain way that is consistent with nature of things. Thank God that my father and mother played "traditional" gender roles. And my grandparents, and their parents... Otherwise, I wouldn't be here.

It's OK to wish and fight for the right of being accepted. Differences must be respected. But these are differences. We are different to most people, we can't deconstruct an entire society (with its defects and virtues), just to make happy a few.

Pretending to change the society, the way others raise their kids, and even pretending change what women like to make them like and feel attracted by CDs is just not going to happen.

I'm also sick of people talking about CD as if it were a disease, or an entity with its own will. We must hold responsible ourselves about our CD. If our wife, kids, society, etc don't accept, we must live with it. If we can't live with it, then we should stop crossdressing. If we decide to come out, we must hold the consequences. If we decide to keep it as a secret, we must hold the consequences. If we decide to quit despite how hard it is, we must hold the consequences.

Toughen kids character is something good to do, not only for boys but girls as well. It has nothing to do with gender. The world is a jungle, and they must be prepared to face happy and unhappy times. If my son or daughter is not capable of handling a disappointment for not being "tough enough", it would be my failure. I'm not implying abusing kids, but teaching them how to deal with the world.

And it seems as some of us need to toughen up, and stop complaining about how unfair the world is with CDs and start taking responsibilities for our choices.

[newcd]

when i was 15 years old my cousin hit me in the face with a 4 way the thing u use to change a flat tire and broke my tooth in half i ended up getting him arrested and he was sentenced to 3-5 for aggravated assault and drunken disorderly conduct but my mom's side of the family still hates me and he did this because he caught me in his house when we were visiting him i never had my tooth fixed i just keep it like it is to remind myself things can only get better

[jruiz]

WAIT A MINUTE....

If it weren't because of "society imposed" gender differences, would crossdressing even make sense at all?

If there were no differences, what kind of clothes would we have to wear to be crossdressers? Alien clothes?

Most of the comments I read here are based on this differences. For example:

- "My wife is less feminine than me. She is not into skirts or makeup"
- "I have a masculine and a feminine side"
- "I feel so girly with this clothes"
- "I love when they call me "madam" and hold the door for me"
- "It's nice when I dance with a nice man and treated as a lady"
- "I'm not gay or bi. It's just that when I'm dress I fantasize about being with another guy"

And so on...

We exist only because of what society has imposed to us.

We crossdress because we want to dress as women. It's not because it's more comfortable. Breaking this "society imposition" is part of the root of being a CD.

To be CDs are not only to be girly. Many girly men don't crossdress. We can be a "macho" CDs. Not all gays are effeminate.

If you like the comfort of skirts, them move to Scotland and wear a kilt... Yeah, I know it's not the same. But why? Isn't it the same comfort?

You mentioned Avril Lavigne. What about Boy George?

Come on, let's stop complaining about how society is. We are CDs. Not emos

[MissConstrued]

Society behaves in a certain way that is consistent with nature of things. Thank God that my father and mother played "traditional" gender roles. And my grandparents, and their parents... Otherwise, I wouldn't be here.

Aye. And I too hope to pass on the same to my progeny.

I do see a certain immutability to those traditional roles. The reason is simple: the women have the uterus, and thus are responsible for childbirth. I don't see that changing anytime soon. If that could be switched between men and women, I might consider there to be a little more interchangeability to gender roles. As it is, what we have is a varied division of labor, and that's nothing new on this planet.

As we all know, the general rule is that men are physically larger and stronger, and thus more suited to hard labor -- and I could list a lot more examples. But whether our physiology evolved to meet demands, or our labor division evolved because of our physiology, the difference remains. We do well to use our nature to our advantage as a species, and never mind the few malcontents.

Toughen kids character is something good to do, not only for boys but girls as well. It has nothing to do with gender. The world is a jungle, and they must be prepared to face happy and unhappy times. If my son or daughter is not capable of handling a disappointment for not being "tough enough", it would be my failure. I'm not implying abusing kids, but teaching them how to deal with the world.

And it seems as some of us need to toughen up, and stop complaining about how unfair the world is with CDs and start taking responsibilities for our choices.

I for one am grateful for just that sort of upbringing. I could have wallowed in self-pity and misery, but growing thicker skin seemed the better idea.

[jruiz]

I do see a certain immutability to those traditional roles. The reason is simple: the women have the uterus, and thus are responsible for childbirth. I don't see that changing anytime soon. If that could be switched between men and women, I might consider there to be a little more interchangeability to gender roles. As it is, what we have is a varied division of labor, and that's nothing new on this planet.

Right. We can't try to change the world just to fit our tastes. Some things can be changed, some others are not mean to be changed.

Society constructs individuals. But the society is also constructed by individuals, and the nature of these individuals influences society. If we ever forget our natural roles, it just will be the end of the human race. (Well, maybe a bit dramatic ).

[BeckiB]

That assumption still holds true, because the majority still fit into that pattern more or less happily. I see no reason to tear down a whole society because a minority does not fit the general rule.

That's not to say that we can't add a few more categories, and integrate them into the whole. But the notion that we need to somehow destroy "gender" as a "social construct" because some of us are square pegs in round holes is absurd.

It's like politics. Most Americans seem happy defining themselves as "Republican" or "Democrat," but for those who don't fit those narrow platforms, there are other parties. In perhaps a sign of the times, third parties are growing. The misfits are uniting.

Batty -- that's my answer to your question, too.

I totally agree.

[Nicki B]

It's made clear that people are not suppossed to like the things from the other gender code. When we see examples of people doing so they are usually mocked or derided. It's made clear to boys growing up that 'throw like a girl' or 'act like a girl' are serious insults, as is Sissy.

This last list simply does not correspond to my experience of life.

I remember being quite shocked by the reaction of the women in a Washington DC office, to a US colleague who had come over to London for three weeks, then, on his return, worn the very expensive handmade gents shirt he'd bought in the UK.. The offence? It was pink.

Right. We can't try to change the world just to fit our tastes. Some things can be changed, some others are not mean to be changed.

That sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy. How would you explain other cultures (e.g. Native North American) where more than two genders is or was accepted?

[Alice Torn]

Change by behavior, and example. Paul Harvey didn't change much in 57 years on radio, but set a great example. I feel i have lost a friend, or father or grandfather i never had. Changing a nation, or society can be good, or seem good, but, too much change we can believe in, too fast, can leave us looking back, and saying, "what the hell did we fall for?

[JulieK1980]

It reminds me once when I was in a McDonalds, and the kid in front of me asked for a happy meal with the "girls" toy inside, his mother went absolutely ballistic, and slapped the kid in the face. (he was, give or take about 7 years old)

So yes I agree wholeheartedly.

[subaru_forster]

To answer the OP, I think that this works very similar to any other "oppressed" demographic: things get better gradually with participation by themselves, and those who support them.

Look at the gays for instance: they have come a long way socially over the past few decades, but it will still be a few decades more before they enjoy anything resembling true equality to the majority.

From what I'm seeing, the ball is beginning to roll for the transgendered. At this point, there's a "Day of Rememberence" dedicated to it, and overall acceptance in the most progressive areas.

I also noticed that this new generation is (overall) leaps and bounds more openminded in this area, and the generation after will probably be even better. It may take a lot of patience (afterall, the greatest fruits of your attempts to educate the unknowing will probably be after your time) but I think it's our responsibility to make this world less abusive.

This brings me to my other point: it's fallacious to say that because societal guidelines should loosen up that they should be destroyed entirely. I hear this fallacy on both sides of the fence often enough. Most men are probably about as masculine as they're "supposed to be". There doesn't need to be a complete discolorization of culture, just let people live based on who they really are.

I think that one day, we will figure out that this "who you really are" bit comes from between the ears. Most people at least claim to believe some form of that already. There's just a lot of baggage to shed at this point.

[battybattybats]

Agree 100%

Society behaves in a certain way that is consistent with nature of things. Thank God that my father and mother played "traditional" gender roles. And my grandparents, and their parents... Otherwise, I wouldn't be here.

roflmao!
I reccomend you look into a little anthropology because other cultures throughout history have had other gender roles than ours and they managed to reproduce quite well!

It's OK to wish and fight for the right of being accepted. Differences must be respected. But these are differences. We are different to most people, we can't deconstruct an entire society (with its defects and virtues), just to make happy a few.

Consider it REconstructing society, as the strict gender roles have NOT been constant throughout history.

Pretending to change the society, the way others raise their kids, and even pretending change what women like to make them like and feel attracted by CDs is just not going to happen.

Pretending can happen in an instant lol. But really changing those things can hapen, real change in those areas has happened in the past and some is happening now.

Heck, the REAL world doesn't even match the one you think we shouldn't change! 1 in 3 viewers of porn are women, the main audiance of mens gay erotic literature are women! Yes, you heard that. There are more women buying and reading guy-on-guy erotic novels than there are gay men doing so! The same apparently is true of Yaoi manga!

The real world of what women really like behind closed doors is different from what they are generally willing to admit publicly.. like everyone else generally. And I'm sure most of the TG-attracted women (and I have met a few, some here on this forum and including one who lived in the same town as me untill recently) have ended up with a non-TG guy for a variety of reasons, not finding any compatable women-attracted CDs in their area likely a big part and being unable to openly admit to their attraction or be openly in a relationship with an out TG person for fear of peer condemnation!

I'm also sick of people talking about CD as if it were a disease, or an entity with its own will.

It's a trait, and possibly a biologically determined one. Certainly homosexuality and transsexuals have been shown to have brain-structure differences! When they get around to studying us I bet we do too!

We must hold responsible ourselves about our CD.

Yes and no. We are largely not responsible for being a CD, but we are for what we do about being one!

If our wife, kids, society, etc don't accept, we must live with it.

We must accept that the individuals are free to make their own choices, but they have the same obligation to us. As for society, the obligation on society is to all citizens, not just the majority but to every individual and as such it is much more obligated.

And we have a responsibility to the education of our family, friends and society! Which can and does change the views of society as can be seen with every civil-rights progress from the abolition of slavery to women in the workforce etc etc. Irrational views can and should be changed by information resulting in rational ones. We have a responsibility to provide that!

If we can't live with it, then we should stop crossdressing.

Utter nonsense! The vast majority of CDs cannot quit because the desire to be a CD is part of who they are.

If we cannot live with being the subject of bigotry then the answer is to fight against and conquer the bigotry. Just as women started doing when Mary Wolstonecroft (mother of the author of Frankenstein) wrote about the rights of women which led to education for women, the vote for women and working rights for women etc.

If we decide to come out, we must hold the consequences.

We are not wholly responsible for those consequences! If we are responsible for our wives decisions upon us coming out for example then those who fought hard to outlaw crossdressing in the past who put us in this state are responsible for them moreso!

We act as if the taboo on being a CD were there from the dawn of time, but it was not! In much of the world anti-CD views are a handful of generations old at most! The traditional roles of and tolerance of CDs was deliberatly stamped out just as it was with homosexuality. Throughout much of Asia, especially South East Asia, Australiasia, Polynesia, The Americas and more crossdressing was often sacred and valued and accepted right up until western european colonial conquering! And even in Europe it was not always anti-crossdressing. CDs and TGs were often sacred amongst for example the tribes who repeatedly defeated Rome! And at times in Rome's and Greece's past there were sacred CDs!

The anti-CD taboo was forced on society by deliberate choice, people chose to lie about us, to make us scapegoats and now we are in this situation because of them! We are responsible for fixing that but they are responsible for us being in this situation to start with!

And the short-term consequences that come from peoples ignorance and intolerance is not our fault but the fault of those who spread hatred about us in the past! But also... as the long term consequences of coming out involve educating others should we not consider that also responsible for our risk of lost friendships and lost families are those other CDs of the past who did not come out? Is our suffering the result of their passing the buck?

If we decide to keep it as a secret, we must hold the consequences.

Indeed we do. And we must look at what that will do to the next generations of CDs who will suffer if we do. We cannot think only of ourselves if we make that choice.

If we decide to quit despite how hard it is, we must hold the consequences.

Indeed... almost guaranteed failure, mental health issues, high risk of suicide and the concurrent harm that this will do to all those around us. Imagine... considering the suffering people go through when someone around them suicides or goes through depression... imagine what choosing a course of action that is almost certain to do that!

And on top of doing that direct harm to ones loved ones to supposedly spare them the suffering of coming to terms with you coming out you still have fauled the next generation of CDS too!

Toughen kids character is something good to do, not only for boys but girls as well. It has nothing to do with gender. The world is a jungle, and they must be prepared to face happy and unhappy times. If my son or daughter is not capable of handling a disappointment for not being "tough enough", it would be my failure. I'm not implying abusing kids, but teaching them how to deal with the world.

And it seems as some of us need to toughen up, and stop complaining about how unfair the world is with CDs and start taking responsibilities for our choices.

LOL. Yes, we should 'toughen up' and stop whining about how we should accept our lot and instead change our lot! If women could do it to get the vote when most people were sure they were intellectually inferior over 100 years ago, if African Americans and Australian Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islander people could when most people thought they were little more than animals, if Gays and Lesbians could take riots largely started by Crossdressers and other Transgender people fighting back against police brutality and an anti-crossdressing law and build on it to get the gains so many here often express jeolousy of...

Then yes we should toughen up and admit that we can and should change the world just as many others have done before us and that we have a responsibility to do so!

Oh and as for the male caveman rot. I happen to know a fair bit about anthropology and pre-history archaeology (I have imediate family members who are in these fields! I have also worked with for a short time the Archaeology team who found the 'hobbit' homo floresiensis!) most hunter-gatherer societies had very capable women. This is because when the men went hunting (where such roles were determined by sex, they were not always split that way!) the women had to defend themselves when off gathering. They did not stay in a cave with the children with a man to guard them!

Look up: Smilodon. Dire Wolf. Cave Bear. The Giant Goanna... early humans had to contend with massive predators and the gathering, which provided for a greater proportion of the food than the hunting did required ranging over large amounts of territory where the women had to be able to fight off gigantic monsters we have difficulty imagining today. As the men may be off for a week at a time to do their hunting imagine the women with the children of the early Australians having to contend with getting water or digging for yams (women in hunter-gatherer societies do a lot of labour!) with the predators in this picture around http://davidbyrne.typepad.com/photos..._megafauna.gif

And yes because men don't have as complex and large reproductive organs they can and do grow larger with slightlyincreased strength (and lower pain threshold, worse centre of gravity, worse balance, worse long-term endurance too all of which women martial-artists can demonstrate well to foolish men).

And so there is evolutionary benefit to having some of the men feel all girly and stay with the women doing hard work digging for yams and building huts and helping protect and raise the children... which is often the traditional role of crossdressers in many traditional societies!

And those strong masculine women with their physical advantages who are very much capable of being stronger than the average male let alone the most effeminate male (are you personally as strong as elite women athletes? nope? Then some women are stronger than most men even if some men are still stronger than them so we have to deal with that reality!) well they also were valued for their strength and skill and went hunting with men in many traditional societies!

It is the modern society which goes against tradition! Crossdressing is traditional!

EDIT: As an example of a people with a documented rich crossdressing tradition as well as gay and lesbian traditions observe this article from SBS's Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islander tv program Living Black on the subject http://news.sbs.com.au/livingblack/ (go to the Rainbow Dreaming segment) where an indiginous man struggling with alcohol abuse stemming from intolerance after being told by his Elders that there being Gay is not part of Aboriginal culture went on to study anthropology and to find that, in fact, there was dreaming stories of same-sex attraction and transgender!

Once again an example of how thoroughly CDing was stamped out by European colonialism where even the traditional elders of the nation are ignorant of their own TG and GLB cultural heritage! The same phenomena as seen in modern day India where conservative Hindu groups condemn public displays of affection,same sex attraction and of course crossdressing and sex-change even though the Hindu religion and history are full of such things!

In just 221 years 50,000 years of transgender culture almost entirely erased!

[txrobinm]

Oh, what a lovely discussion!

The old paradigms are being found to be somewhat lacking. For example, I'm in my late 30's. My generation, at least those of us who thought of such things, deplored the treatment of the Native Americans by the European settlers. In hindsight, there really was enough land for both societies to co-exist. Also, with the advent of green-consciousness, the closeness with the land found in native peoples is seen as an asset, while the marketplace forces once called "progress" that downplay environmental impact have shown themselves to be incapable in it's current form of long-term responsibility.

What was only recently so black-and-white is now seen to have many shades of grey. Insert your own binary system and see what happens!

[cd_britney_426]

I've always had a bit of an issue with gender roles. Now, I certainly don't have an issue with a culture promoting common things such as business attire where a man would wear a coat and tie whereas a woman would wear a respectable dress. However, cultures should reasonably allow for people to be free to "pursue their own happiness" as is a concept regularly fed to the American public but rarely a reality. The problem I have is when culture considers harmless behaviors taboos yet considers harmful activities completely acceptable. For instance, a non-passable crossdressed individual entering a store is likely to be stared at significantly whereas the ten people out front smoking cigarettes will go completely unnoticed.

These gender roles also are often promoted by transgender people themselves in the form of "passing." For instance, one time when I was seated at a table in a nightclub CDed, another MTF TG said that I am not sitting as a girl would sit. I asked why should that matter to which there was no logical response. Another common one I encounter is that I need to "work on my voice." Again, why should I? So I look like a girl but sound like a man and what honestly is the big deal? As a few have mentioned before on this board, what is the real reason behind passing? If you want to truly pass (which I and most of us prefer), then do your best at it and enjoy life. On the other hand, if you simply want to be yourself which may not include trying to pass, then you should feel free to do that as well. The point is that you should be able to do what makes you happy and not just what pleases others.

Last but not least, I disagree with the negative attitudes/viewpoints that I believe JRuiz shared here. If you truly believe that "you can't change the world...people won't ever fully accept you...you may not be able to CD as much as you want, etc." then you are correct--you won't. Instead, you will hold on to that belief, do nothing to change yourself for the better, and continue to surround yourself by your troubles and shortcomings. You may as well just open a bag of chips, a can of beer, and watch some reality TV to get your mind off of things because nothing you can do will change the world. That's one option but I believe it is certainly not the best option. There was a time where people had a vision of crossing the Atlantic to find a "new world," people who had a vision that people could construct crafts to fly, that slavery would be abolished, that women could vote, and smallpox could be cured. The people who truly believed that those things were possible created a dream, lived by that dream, and took actions towards making that dream a reality. I believe in choosing option two. If you don't like the current reality then ask yourself what reality you do want and then do something to start creating it. Britney

[Satrana]

Is how kids are brought up seriously damaging to CD's?

The issue is not about CDs per se but about all males. The gender conditioning stripes away so much of the humanity of young boys - all the emotionally open, sensitive, empathic, tenderness is squeezed out of them. Even worse in order to achieve this masculization, boys are conditioned to look down on and despise girls as weak and irrelevant. All things feminine is scorned as it is poison to masculinity.

This gender conditioning is nothing short of emotional lobotomy. For the most part it succeeds and males pride themselves in being rid of the weakness of women. They are unaware of how much their viewpoint of life has been skewed by their conditioning. Only TG men, and most gay men, become aware of what has taken place and have to live with the induced guilt and shame of not following the approved path to masculine adulthood. They falsely believe that since the gender conditioning has failed, that there is something wrong with them.

In truth TGs and gays, through chance or design, are the lucky males who have escaped being blinded by gender conditioning but they have to overcome the shame and guilt before they can take advantage of their good fortune.

PS. for those interested look at this other thread which conatins an article on a mother allowing her boys the chance to crossdress.
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...d.php?t=102484