"...the sexuality that's expected of us ..."

[sometimes_miss]

Lisa Golightly wrote:

It may be semantics, but I find it bemusing that so many people on this site need to say they find men 'repulsive'... I'm sure when they look at themselves in the mirror they smile and think 'looking good'... In my TS state I really did find looking at this man in the mirror truly repulsive.

and

deja true wrote:

Yeah, hunnies, it's the "I find men repulsive thing" that I don't get either. Does that leave you in a constant state of self-loathing when you're not dressed?

Ask any average straight man how he feels about having another man hug him intimately, caress his buttocks, slide his hand between his legs, and deep kiss him and you'll get the same answer. Then ask him how he feels about having a man's penis in his mouth. Then ask him how he feels about giving and receiving anal sex with a man. I'm guessing you're starting to get the idea. Funny, a lot of women feel the same way about giving oral sex to another woman. Not everyone is fascinated with homosexual or bisexual behavior, or is curious to try it. Some things we just feel disgusted by. No, I don't find my own body disgusting, but I'm not turned on by looking in the mirror either (though I'm guessing some people who are here, are). We simply have absolutely no interest in having sex with another male, no matter if he is dressed up to look like a woman or whatever. Unfortunately, for those of you who are bi curious, it seems you cannot fathom that concept. Since you are bi-curious or whatever, it just seems to you that everyone must be. And you're wrong.

Throughout my life, males have always been competitive. Even friends were always trying to take advantage of me, cheat me. One went behind my back to steal a job from me. Even today, one of the guys at work lies to me, trying to get me to do things at work that I wouldn't ordinarily do. When I was a teen, another dated a girl he knew I had a crush on, in fact, he didn't pursue her until he knew I liked her, then flaunted it in my face. He didn't do it because he liked her, he did it because he knew I wanted her, and he only dated her until she had sex with him, then he dumped her and told me what a fool she was. Nice, real nice. And this goes on all the time. Insecure men are constantly always trying to get 'one up' on the competition, every other guy. And it sucks. There's not a single guy I feel that I can completely trust.

Me, I was sexually abused throughout my childhood. It involved oral and anal acts, and it's not something that I ever wish to experience again. When I go into a locker room at a club, the scent of sweaty male bodies, to me, smells absolutely disgusting. Maybe you like it, if so, then go enjoy yourself. Me, I find it repulsive. And nothing you can say will change that.

[Thalia]

Gabrielle Hermosa: AMEN!!! I couldn't have said it better myself. Agree completely and have always felt the same way. However, you said it so much better than I ever could have. Thank you.

[Lisa Golightly]

Maybe you like it, if so, then go enjoy yourself. Me, I find it repulsive. And nothing you can say will change that.

But if you took the time to read the second paragraph you may have understood my point... A question of semantics indeed.

[Jennifer_Cross]

I like to think that when in Drab... I'm pure Male but when dressed I'm a Lesbian ;-)

Jen

[jayelle]

But if you took the time to read the second paragraph you may have understood my point... A question of semantics indeed.

Yes, re-read Lisa's original post. Her point is well-made.

I'm in my 40s and over the years I've heard so many men say they are "repulsed" or "disgusted" by the idea of sleeping with another man. But I've yet to hear even a single woman use a similar phrase. Women will simply say that sleeping with another women "is not their thing". And many women will admit to fantasies about sleeping with other women, whereas men are much slower to discuss fantasies about men.

I don't think it's just semantics. Generations of learned or "herd" behaviour will take another generation to undo.

[Lorileah]

Confusion.

For years I struggled with confusion. Then epiphany! No matter what anyone says no one is 100% anything. You might be 99.9% but nothing is 100% (I know I know death and taxes but even Obama's candidates have shown taxes aren't 100%). Thank you human sexuality 228 in college.

Let's assume I'll live to be 80. The first half of my life I tried real hard to be straight. Succeeded. Then midlife set in. I like dresses, I like makeup, I like high heel shoes and yes I like some (note some) men. Did I evolve? In a way yes I did because I knew that I was on a downhill slide. Carpet dream, or Carp dealin or what ever. It wasn't a new thing it was who I was. So did the dressing cause this? No but it mediated it. Now I am comfortable with what I am.

What ever your preference, be true to yourself. Hey I don't like asparagus (maybe therr is a 100%).

As Ricky Nelson said ( no he isn't related to Willy all you under 40 people) "You can't please everyone so you got to please yourself"

Carpe Diem y'all

[windycissy]

Or as George Carlin put it, being bi doubles your chances of getting laid before closing time....

[ReineD]

I like my boy bits...and I'm thinking...why couldn't I like the boy bits of another if it ever came right down to it.

The law of magnetism .. like poles repel and unlike poles attract? Complementary opposites that fit together to form a perfect whole?

Just a thought. But I do think you've brought up a very good point. My thoughts are increasingly confused about it as well.

[Karren H]

Lucky for me I never did what others expected of me!! lol

[Barbara Dugan]

Or as George Carlin put it, being bi doubles your chances of getting laid before closing time....

I agree

[ArleneRaquel]

I agree

Me too - But men are my priority.

[Satrana]

Crossdressing makes us realize that the hard and fast rules behind gender are actually artificial and quite fluid. Over time we understand that we can determine our own gender for ourselves. Because we incorporate femininity into our thinking, we package these ideas into the mold of a woman, hence we begin to investigate what a woman's role would be like. What this all means is we can fantasize about being a woman sexually, and then come to understand that our conditioned response "I am 100% hetero" is also artificial and fluid.

None of us are born with heterosexuality burned into our thoughts. Instead we are born with a program to be sexual creatures and to engage in relationships with others. But the input fields for this program are initially blank. Society works hard to ensure that these empty fields are filled in with the correct attributes for the opposite sex, but it does not always work that well. These entries are not set in stone so we have the power to alter them. CDs are one group who, because of our experimentation with gender, find themselves open to experimenting with sexual attraction as well.

Many people find this idea scary and so refuse to explore what these ideas and feelings may lead to. But it is really the natural reaction to integrating the genders together. It is no coincidence that as women have increasing incorporated masculine behavior and presentation into their everyday lives, the incidence of bi-curiosity has escalated sharply. Particularly among younger generations of women it is now commonplace to have tried a lesbian relationship at least once.

[Stephanie Scott]

So I guess the argument that sexuality is "hard wired" and is NOT a choice (a pet argument of the homosexual activists) is not true? Can't have it both ways. Behavior (sexual or otherwise) is either a choice or it is fatalistically determined and cannot be altered, i.e., we are helpless victims of biology.

The scary part for activists is that if behavior is a choice, then 1) people are permitted to make value judgments about that choice and 2) there is no biological "out" if that choice is ultimately destructive or immoral.

[Satrana]

The problem with describing gender and sexual attractions as choices is that it promotes the idea that it is a conscious choice. I would argue that is not the case - the things we find attractive are influenced by our thoughts, experiences and the details of our environment. These different influences mix together in our heads and alter our thoughts over time - I guess it can be viewed as an evolutionary process of adaptation.

So people are correct on one level in saying they did not choose to be a certain way because consciously they never made that determination. But it is also true that they became the way they are through a process of thoughts and experiences which they were unaware of because it worked in the background over a long timescale.

Judging people for subconscious processes is too harsh but also claiming that you were born a certain way is being obstinately stubborn in accepting you are the way you are because you want it that way. The key is really to understand that it is within our power to change our way of thinking but we need a set of tools or a change in circumstances and lifestyle to enable us to influence the subconscious processes that determine our likes and dislikes. We cannot just will the change because a conscious thought cannot in itself undo the existing brain linkages that create our identity.

That does not mean you can flip between hetero and gay, or between male and female. But what you can do is learn to be curious, explore, experiment with the other side and in time learn to appreciate aspects of the other gender/sex that you refused or were unable to examine before. In essence everyone's end game if you thoroughly explored all aspects of gender and sexuality would be to become a transgendered, bisexual individual incorporating the best aspects of what you like from everyone around you.

[MsJanessa]

I have noticed that there are some that say well, I am hetro, but when I am dressed, i often think of what it would be like to be with a man sexually.
If when it drab it's totally out of the question.
Sometimes I wonder if it's just part and parcel with their crossdressing you know... kind of enhances the whole experience. More fantasy than fact.

bingo--you have summed it up nicely

[Hali]

It's instinctual and intrinsic Deja. In short, it takes one to know one. In any case, I never do what is "expected". That would be just plain boring.

Its really difficult to sort out ones sexuality, however, one should be able to determine ones sexually (so i heard). I cant really say my sexuality right now its so unfortunate. They say (the experts) that ones sexuality often enter into "yo-yo" stage after a certain age of relative "sexual stability" may be am in that yo-yo stage.

[Desiree2bababe]

The more honest I am with myself the more I realize I love what a man offers more than a woman. However, I do love women with a passion, just sexually I find pleasing a man more gratifying than pleasing a woman.

[marla01]

The problem with describing gender and sexual attractions as choices is that it promotes the idea that it is a conscious choice. I would argue that is not the case - the things we find attractive are influenced by our thoughts, experiences and the details of our environment. These different influences mix together in our heads and alter our thoughts over time - I guess it can be viewed as an evolutionary process of adaptation.

I definitely agree with your observations, however I would expand on it a lot. Definitely, social forces are a factor, and those social factors are real and substantial. However, I would suggest there are two other major forces.

I would suggest that biology is a real factor as well and just as substantial as social. But it's not a simple force like a 'straight' force or a 'gay' force, but influences things at a more subtle level.

I would also suggest our own wills are also a substantive force. We actually have an ability to consciously influence our own sexual preferences.

None of these forces, social, biological or conscious override the others. Our sexual preferences and attractions are a complex merging of all of these forces. And it's also a continuing process that causes change over time.

Marla

[JoAnne Wheeler]

I just want to be a heterosexual CD - spouse wants a male male, yes a male

male, not a feminine male - big source of conflict and frustration for me

JoAnne Wheeler

[docrobbysherry]

This is a reoccurring theme, as was pointed out. I like the "evolution" spin on it. There has been an evolution to my own crossdressing, however my sexuality remains the same.

I've been a straight man all my life. Never been interested in the slightest about being with another man sexually. Since going onine as a cd, I've seen a lot of photos of down right beautiful, sexy looking crossdressers. Some cd's are not only completely passable, but absolutely gorgeous. I find them very attractive. This did cause me to think about my own sexuality.


Here's how my thought process went. If I were in a room with a beautiful cd - one who also found me very attractive, what would happen? Under the premise that I was available and not married, would I really want to engage in romantic contact with another cd? There are levels to this and I mentally explored them.

Kissing. I'm pretty sure the feminine exterior would fade away quickly if I ever engaged in a kiss with another cd. Something tells me it's just not like kissing a real woman. But let's say I did end up enjoying the kiss and did not feel as if I was with a man or turned off by it.

What if second base was there? What if we're talking about a cd who's had some surgical alterations? Again, following the logical route of events, more touching would likely take place. Once we get downstairs to the lower level... I'm not only very done, I'm physically disgusted.

No matter what someone looks like on the outside, at no time do I find the thought of touching the man-part (or it touching me) desirable in any way. I do in fact find it repulsive. Not my own, but having contact with someone else's. I'm honestly making my grossed-out face right now. lol

The conclusion is that when I find another cd physically attractive, it is only the feminine beauty I am attracted to and not the man. If I'm aware of the fact that I'm looking at a man, there are no sexual thoughts, feelings, or curiosities. I'll admire a crossdresser's beauty, often wishing I could look as good myself, but don't desire to do anything other than admire her (his) beauty.

I've been hit on a few times by other cd's, and non-cd's who want to be with a cd. It was a little weird at first, but I'm ok with it. I honestly expected it might happen before venturing online as Gabrielle. I take it as a compliment, and even enjoy the ego boost it offers. That's just an honest statement, btw - I think every girl (mtf cd) really enjoys when others find her beautiful. I don't mind engaging in conversation with guys who find me attractive so long as the conversation is not sexual in nature, or about what I've got on, or about what other kind of photos do I have, etc.

I've always loved women... maybe a bit too much and perhaps that plays a big part in why I crossdress. I just can't see myself ever being romantically interested in another man. This feeling is not because of what society has dictated about that subject and reinforced in my mind over the years. This is just how I feel, period.

I've lived and thot everything u wrote above, Gabrielle! Even to thots of 3rd base! Would I, could I have sex with a TS that had complete transition surgery? One so convincing, u would NEVER KNOW they started out as a man? Having met several such individuals like that in Thailand, I must admit I mite!

After all, I have sex with Sherry, knowing she is a man!
However, unlike u, I'm completely turned off by my male 3rd base. Which ALWAYS remains tucked out of sight during ALL my CD sessions!

[DemonicDaughter]

[SIZE="3"]

So I guess the argument that sexuality is "hard wired" and is NOT a choice (a pet argument of the homosexual activists) is not true? Can't have it both ways. Behavior (sexual or otherwise) is either a choice or it is fatalistically determined and cannot be altered, i.e., we are helpless victims of biology.

The scary part for activists is that if behavior is a choice, then 1) people are permitted to make value judgments about that choice and 2) there is no biological "out" if that choice is ultimately destructive or immoral.

When you went through puberty, did you question which sex you desired? No? Neither do we. We just question the safety, sanity and ability to act upon those desires.

Or as it was so wonderfully put:

Oh yes you can. It's an old argument, and the solution usually turn out to be: "Yes your sexual desires are hard-wired but your sexual activities are your own free and moral choice. So assume your responsibilities / Confess your sins / Enjoy what you've got..." / ...enter other commandment of choice.

[/SIZE]

[CharleneT]

In my experience - and observations - people are willing to change their sexuality pretty quickly. The trick is to have the right circumstances come together at the right time. You may believe that you are rock solid in what you like/desire. Only to find you are wrong when mr/ms right walks up to you. My advice is to stay as open minded as you can, you may find yourself in a true quandrary otherwise. Life is short and confusing, try and enjoy the ride. Experience it to the fullest, you never know when its over.


Charlene

[sometimes_miss]

Lisa Golightly wrote:

I'm not inclined to think of women as sexually attractive any more, but I don't think them repulsive... Just not my thing.

That's fine. But why might you think you can apply that exact feeling to everyone else? Sexuality is a bell curve, with the vast majority in the middle quite far towards the heterosexual end, a much smaller percentage exclusively at the homosexual end, and of course some more exclusively towards the heterosexual end. This has been well established. Yet, some people take it upon themselves to insist that no one can possibly be 'all' anything, usually because of common basic human insecurity, which creates need to believe that all others are like themselves in order to feel good about themselves. You see this most often in some straight people's opinions that being gay is a choice, and that it could be changed because they believe no one could truly be gay. I think that is similar to what we have here, where some people insist that no one could possible only have sexual desire for the opposite gender. Because if their self image comes into question when this concept is challenged, it could result in the same feelings that some men feel uncomfortable when confronted with the reality that some men are exclusively homosexual.

And jayelle wrote:

I'm in my 40s and over the years I've heard so many men say they are "repulsed" or "disgusted" by the idea of sleeping with another man. But I've yet to hear even a single woman use a similar phrase. Women will simply say that sleeping with another women "is not their thing". And many women will admit to fantasies about sleeping with other women, whereas men are much slower to discuss fantasies about men. I don't think it's just semantics. Generations of learned or "herd" behaviour will take another generation to undo.

The key word there is 'many', when you speak of women having fantasies about sleeping with other women, and that, of course implies, that there are some who don't. But yes, I have heard women say that they find the idea of sex with another women 'distasteful', whether you want to use that as a less strong polite way of saying 'disgusting', is up to you. But surely there are a lot of women who don't have any inherent desire to kiss or have oral sex with another woman, and if confronted with the situation, may well feel repulsed at the idea. Perhaps further inquiries are required here; ask more women how they'd feel about giving oral sex to another woman, and judge their responses. I think you'll get more varied results.

Heterosexuality isn't just learned. Most males are attracted to a particular body type, which is inherently female. A 70% waist to hip ratio is the most commonly found figure that males respond sexually to. That shape is not commonly found in nature on a male body. We've had 'generations' of time to 'unlearn' herd behavior. There are millions of gay people out there that are doing what they feel natural to do, who don't follow herd behavior. There are millions of us who crossdress comfortably on our own, who don't follow herd behavior. But it's not simply always just 'herd behavior' that we are following, it's what we feel we are supposed to do. And so are the vast majority of straight people.

Lorileah wrote:

No matter what anyone says no one is 100% anything.

Yes, there are some who are; no, not everyone, but some, and that still results in many millions of people. See above argument.

Windycissy wrote:

Or as George Carlin put it, being bi doubles your chances of getting laid before closing time

Yes it does. But that doesn't mean we can 'choose' to be attracted to everyone. If I had my way, I'd 'choose' to be attracted to and turned on by short fat ugly women with bad complexions, nasty attitudes, and poor hygiene. I'd be having so much sex that I'd have to quit my job. But nature doesn't work that way.

Satrana wrote:

None of us are born with heterosexuality burned into our thoughts. Instead we are born with a program to be sexual creatures and to engage in relationships with others. But the input fields for this program are initially blank.

I don't believe that to be the case at all. Our dna and early developmental maternal hormonal influences can and do influence us, not only physically, but psychologically.

and:

the incidence of bi-curiosity has escalated sharply

I don't think so. I just think people feel more free to admit it when they do feel it. But that doesn't mean that everyone feels bi-curiosity, or that there's any indication that eventually everyone will.

Stephanie Scott wrote:

So I guess the argument that sexuality is "hard wired" and is NOT a choice (a pet argument of the homosexual activists) is not true?

It can be both, but it doesn't have to be. Like Katie wrote, your sexual behavior isn't always equal to your inherent sexual orientation.

Marla01 wrote:

We actually have an ability to consciously influence our own sexual preferences.

Yes we do. But it doesn't always work. You can repeat over and over to yourself, I'm going to get sexually aroused by, oh, lets say, redheads, but that doesn't mean you're actually going to get physically aroused because of that just because you're trying to influence yourself. We don't consciously get to turn ourselves on that way. You can't 'will yourself' an erection whenever you want.

And:

None of these forces, social, biological or conscious override the others. Our sexual preferences and attractions are a complex merging of all of these forces. And it's also a continuing process that causes change over time.

Well, yes, it CAN change over time, but there's no evidence that it necessarily always changes over time. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

Katie B wrote:

Oh yes you can. It's an old argument, and the solution usually turn out to be: "Yes your sexual desires are hard-wired but your sexual activities are your own free and moral choice.

I absolutely agree. But whether those activities inspire physical sexual arousal will show whether you are truly sexually attracted to the person you are interacting with or just 'going through the motions' because you like them. Liking someone and being physically turned on are two entirely different things.

Docrobbysherry wrote:

Would I, could I have sex with a TS that had complete transition surgery? One so convincing, u would NEVER KNOW they started out as a man?

If you have no conflicting subconscious feelings, your are strictly heterosexual, and that TS person displays all female characteristics and traits, and there is no evidence to the contrary, I think most strictly heterosexual men would easily
be able to have sex with a mtf TS, because very simply, we see them as female, and have no reason not to believe they are not. However, if you later find out they 'used to be male', that information may be enough to disrupt the image you have created in your mind of who they are, and disrupt your ability to get aroused by being with them. After all, it's the image we create of someone, based on everything we know of them, which is what we are truly attracted to, or not.

Myself, well, there could be a very strong argument made that in my case my feelings of disgust, repulsion and distrust regarding males could very well be due to the incidence of my being abused in sexual, non sexual, physical and psychological ways by males in my life when I was growing up.

[Megan_Okana]

[QUOTE=ReineD;1648162]The law of magnetism .. like poles repel and unlike poles attract? Complementary opposites that fit together to form a perfect whole? QUOTE]

Thats what i think, when Im being feminine I like Masculine. Thats the opposite of what I am so thats what i am atracted to.

This may be weird but the girl i want to be is the girl that Im atracted to as a guy. And as a girl i want the kind of guy I am. But both are complete opposites of eachother

[Alandra]

But if any of you ever get into Robert Anton Wilson (RAW), he can be INCREDIBLY insightful. One of the more valuable things he taught is about sexual identity. Three things:

1) With precious few exceptions, we all play two sexual roles. First, the role that we THINK society WANTS us to play. As distinct from the actual role that society wants us play.
2) We have a unique sexual identity which invariably differs from the one society wants us to play and our perceptions thereof. For some people it's as simple as a sock fetish, for others, it's as exotic as your twisted mind can imagine.
3) The only thing that's consistent across different societies with respect to sexual identity is that it seeks to CONTROL WHAT THE INDIVIDUAL WANTS TO DO with that identity for its own purposes.

Fortunately, in our particular environment, we can really focus in on item 2, and leave 1 & 3 for the trash bin. We have more freedom than the vast majority of societies in recorded history. So... rejoice! And good luck...

Alandra