C/D or Transexual

[Crysten]

I think you probably should tell your wife that you don't plan to have your crotchal region remodelled (you know, scaffolding, drywall, paint, and most importantly, plumbing).

For one thing, it's very expensive (unless, of course, you have it done by Mexican sub-contractors).

I wonder how many people have actually have taken out a second mortgage to finance their genital remodelling. LOL.

Crysten

I was actually considering having a Jacuzzi put in. LOL

Crysten

[Byanca]

Deal with it.

Geezz, you really know how to spoil the day, dont you?

[battybattybats]

Geezz, you really know how to spoil the day, dont you?

You know what? As I have friends and family who have mental illness and have suffered the injustice of the stigmatisation of mental illness the implied accusation that CDs were being demeaned by being associated with a mental illness is itself disgraceful disgusting and offensive. Even though the fact is that Schizophrenia is a nuerological condition not a psychological one as the link proves.

And as someone suffering from a physical disability I've faced plenty of discrimination on that front too so suggesting that it being associated with a neurological condition is in some way bad also is disgraceful.

And having friends with Neurological variations like Aspergers any suggestion that being associated with neurological variation too is offensive.

And after being told I was making false claims when I had provided a link to an article on the subject with references that was plenty offensive too.

So really, genuinely, I was restrained in my response. As restrained as I possibly could especially after being accussed of being a liar and ignorant.

Pointing out that a link I provided with my first post showed that Schizophrenia is a neurological condition not a psychological one and saying 'deal with it' seems to me far more polite than plenty of other appropriate responses.

So if your day is spoiled by the fact that science shows that Homosexuals, transsexuals and Schizophrenics all share different neurological cross-sexed variations and the crossdressers are likely similarly different, well thats what science has learned of reality and like gravity and thermodynamics we merely need to accept that. And if your day is spoiled that a microscopic hint of my anger and valid fury at being called a liar showing through as I proved that I was not simply and quickly then I am glad I kept a lid on my temper as well as i did.

[The Gas Man Cometh]

Are you kidding? We know nothing of the kind!

And where exactly did you get your psychiatric degree?

(And when too, this sounds like 19th century claptrap).

Your statements are totally false from all sorts of directions, but most scary is your implication that being gay or transgendered is a mental disorder like Schizophrenia.

Marla

I'm actually wondering where you drew the implication from, that Batty was saying being gay or trans is a mental disorder. She said nothing of the sort.

If I had a nickel for every time the field of science changed a perspective based on new findings, I would have enough money to conduct my own research.. lol.

my point is lets try not to be so black and white with something that is clearly gray...

I agree that life is never black/white, but changing perspectives and conclusions based upon new evidence is what science is.

You know what? As I have friends and family who have mental illness and have suffered the injustice of the stigmatisation of mental illness the implied accusation that CDs were being demeaned by being associated with a mental illness is itself disgraceful disgusting and offensive. Even though the fact is that Schizophrenia is a nuerological condition not a psychological one as the link proves.

And as someone suffering from a physical disability I've faced plenty of discrimination on that front too so suggesting that it being associated with a neurological condition is in some way bad also is disgraceful.

And having friends with Neurological variations like Aspergers any suggestion that being associated with neurological variation too is offensive.

And after being told I was making false claims when I had provided a link to an article on the subject with references that was plenty offensive too.

So really, genuinely, I was restrained in my response. As restrained as I possibly could especially after being accussed of being a liar and ignorant.

Pointing out that a link I provided with my first post showed that Schizophrenia is a neurological condition not a psychological one and saying 'deal with it' seems to me far more polite than plenty of other appropriate responses.

So if your day is spoiled by the fact that science shows that Homosexuals, transsexuals and Schizophrenics all share different neurological cross-sexed variations and the crossdressers are likely similarly different, well thats what science has learned of reality and like gravity and thermodynamics we merely need to accept that. And if your day is spoiled that a microscopic hint of my anger and valid fury at being called a liar showing through as I proved that I was not simply and quickly then I am glad I kept a lid on my temper as well as i did.

Don't worry too much. It's the pot calling the kettle black. Ahahahah irony.

... We know all about irony.

[Deb The Brunette]

Another labels discussion.

I don't actually like labels....unless they are the kind on a designer dress lol


.

[cindycd]

Wow. This topic is starting to heat up. If it gets too heated, there's always the chance of the thread being closed by a Monitor or administrator. Before this happens, I'd like to throw my in...

This is my personal belief:
A crossdresser is someone who likes to wear clothes of the opposite gender either for comfort or sexual gratification, or other reasons. That person just loves the clothes/accessories of the opposite gender, but does not feel like they are trapped in the wrong body nor have the need or desire to become the opposite gender.

A Transsexual is someone who is not the appropriate gender they were born as. They are the opposite gender inside and are given an ultimatum. Transition or face a lifetime of confusion and depression which may lead to suicide.

I believe a transgendered person is sort of in between the two. I wish I was born a girl. I'm becoming more feminine little by little. I don't think I'll ever transition because I don't feel like I was born in the wrong body, but I don't like being a man either. I also consider myself androgynous.

These are My definitions. Other people may give you different definitions and that's ok because everyone's different. Hope this helps.

what ever happend to just enjoying dressing up. I still love to do it and have been doing so for forty six years. I think everybody is over thinking this. Recently I have bought some stuff that I have always wanted but was to afraid to buy in a store. Thank God or who ever is in charge for on line shopping because I would not be the cder/crosser/tver that I guess I am enjoying today. I just love getting all dolled up and acctually enjoy it. I am probably not your typical crossdresser but then again who is. I have absolutely no intentions of changing my sex. I just love dressing up and I wish I could find a woman that is O.K. with that but it seems a tough problem these days.

[DarleneCD]

I agree that life is never black/white, but changing perspectives and conclusions based upon new evidence is what science is.

My point exactly Cometh... Science is never absolute and always changing as we learn more

[battybattybats]

My point exactly Cometh... Science is never absolute and always changing as we learn more

Science is a method. And that method has changed little in centuries. The understanding science has given us however grows and the conlcusions we reach change. Alas scientiffic literacy is woeful in much of the general community and the reporting of it is pathetic in properly explaining things.

So when a study says: there is a carcinogenic compound in a vegetable. The media says 'this vegetable causes cancer!' which is far from the same thing.

When a later study finds a cancer preventing compound in the same vegetable the researcher is unsurprised because the vegetable never increased the cancer risk but the media says 'vegetable fights cancer' which again is not the same thing at all!

End result, the vegetable is still neutral for cancer as had been known for years before both studies but now a new anti-cancer treatment of highly refined high-dosage drug of the cancer fighting compound is developed that saves lives. Meanwhile the scientifically illiterate assume that science told them not to eat the vegetable and it was bad and then told them it was good later so then science is undependable and untrustworthy.

We see the same sort of thing with the breast cancer gene where the risk increase was iirc 10%higher. Significant but hardly high enough to warrent the surgical removal of gene carrying preteens breast tissue as some were calling for!

And the same goes for the Transsexual Gene as it was called which merely is more prevelant amongst TS than the general population.

And then when you add the complexities of methodology and discovering new complicating factors that can invalidate a study or render it only partially correct or render it's data correct but conclusions incorrect plenty of people who have not been properly taught science again fall to the false conclusion that science is nonsense or unreliable. And that missunderstanding causes conflict and even intolerance and sometimes violence!

Such as was faced for many years since the emergence of AIDS where sufferers suffered social and physical violence because people were ignorant on very basic aspects of the spread of viruses etc. And in much of the world this problem remains still.

There is no excuse for the way Gays and Transsexuals are treated in society and the law now that these scientific studies have shown what they show.

And chances are that when eventually they get around to studying crossdressers properly something similar and likely quite related to TS is highly likely to be found. My guess is that many CDs have bi-gendered brain architecture (which is estimated at being about 1/3rd of all people) + mild or even more transsexual cross-sexed brain architecture and some with homosexual cross-sexed brain symetry. The more the cross-sexed brain architecture the more likely the person will be a late-transitioning TS or one confortable with less surgery. Whereas those TSs that have been aware from the outset and require transition ASAP would have mono-gendered brains just set contrary to the body. While the CDs that show barely any femininity at all are likely to have very subtle brain differences indeed. And a small percentage of those may just CD for purely psychological reasons.

But this is a field of research still in it's infancy. There is more to learn and like the Schizophrenia there will be many surprises as we delve further into a complex phenomena. And people who don't understand science will dismiss it and the results of it as twaddle or as fickle but the flaw there is simply in their understanding.

[Jennifer Cox]

My father believes something was broken when I crashed on a sledge on the snow with a pile of concrete with the head making the first impact. Rendering me unconscious for most of that day,about 5-6, and not so long after when I fell down a hole on the floor, landing 3m's further down again on my head, and unconscious for most of that day to. This he have told several times during the years. All of these is my earliest memories-but I cant remember what came first of my awareness of the gender issue or the accidents.

I've been unconsious maybe 10 times so far due to impacts to my head, voken up 3 times on the intensive care. Not once it's been intentional.

There is something different with me, I've never ever met a person that think I am normal. Some say I am unique. That's nice, but I don't think so.

Take it you're blonde then

[Byanca]

then I am glad I kept a lid on my temper as well as i did.

I've believed the longest time it's a gift from another galaxy. Just a question of getting it to fit into society. But the blogger does have some hardcore theories contrary to this. For my own part I think I will wait a little before I take it as bulletproofproof.

Sorry if I angered you, I think you where right to be angry,so didn't mean it that way, this caught my attention.

there really could be a cure for transsexuality. All we'd have to do is to induce the most extreme form of schizophrenia, eventually reducing the person to a completely mindless cabbage, then re-stimulating foetal development and growing a whole new, non-transsexual personality. Still, if we can do that, we could do the same to anyone, killing off one personality, and making a brand new one more to our liking.

ehhh-I dont want them to do that.

Take it you're blonde then

Dark blonde,actually

[Jennifer Cox]

Take it you're blonde then

I've Dark blonde,actually

Wasn't wrong then

[DarleneCD]

Science is a method. And that method has changed little in centuries. The understanding science has given us however grows and the conlcusions we reach change. Alas scientiffic literacy is woeful in much of the general community and the reporting of it is pathetic in properly explaining things.

So when a study says: there is a carcinogenic compound in a vegetable. The media says 'this vegetable causes cancer!' which is far from the same thing.

When a later study finds a cancer preventing compound in the same vegetable the researcher is unsurprised because the vegetable never increased the cancer risk but the media says 'vegetable fights cancer' which again is not the same thing at all!

End result, the vegetable is still neutral for cancer as had been known for years before both studies but now a new anti-cancer treatment of highly refined high-dosage drug of the cancer fighting compound is developed that saves lives. Meanwhile the scientifically illiterate assume that science told them not to eat the vegetable and it was bad and then told them it was good later so then science is undependable and untrustworthy.

We see the same sort of thing with the breast cancer gene where the risk increase was iirc 10%higher. Significant but hardly high enough to warrent the surgical removal of gene carrying preteens breast tissue as some were calling for!

And the same goes for the Transsexual Gene as it was called which merely is more prevelant amongst TS than the general population.

And then when you add the complexities of methodology and discovering new complicating factors that can invalidate a study or render it only partially correct or render it's data correct but conclusions incorrect plenty of people who have not been properly taught science again fall to the false conclusion that science is nonsense or unreliable. And that missunderstanding causes conflict and even intolerance and sometimes violence!

Such as was faced for many years since the emergence of AIDS where sufferers suffered social and physical violence because people were ignorant on very basic aspects of the spread of viruses etc. And in much of the world this problem remains still.

There is no excuse for the way Gays and Transsexuals are treated in society and the law now that these scientific studies have shown what they show.

And chances are that when eventually they get around to studying crossdressers properly something similar and likely quite related to TS is highly likely to be found. My guess is that many CDs have bi-gendered brain architecture (which is estimated at being about 1/3rd of all people) + mild or even more transsexual cross-sexed brain architecture and some with homosexual cross-sexed brain symetry. The more the cross-sexed brain architecture the more likely the person will be a late-transitioning TS or one confortable with less surgery. Whereas those TSs that have been aware from the outset and require transition ASAP would have mono-gendered brains just set contrary to the body. While the CDs that show barely any femininity at all are likely to have very subtle brain differences indeed. And a small percentage of those may just CD for purely psychological reasons.

But this is a field of research still in it's infancy. There is more to learn and like the Schizophrenia there will be many surprises as we delve further into a complex phenomena. And people who don't understand science will dismiss it and the results of it as twaddle or as fickle but the flaw there is simply in their understanding.

Wow, I would have been ok with the short answer

All I was trying to say is that there is always more than meets the eye when you add the benefit of time and discovery. thanks for kicking it up a notch......

Dar

[The Gas Man Cometh]

Wow, I would have been ok with the short answer

All I was trying to say is that there is always more than meets the eye when you add the benefit of time and discovery. thanks for kicking it up a notch......

Dar

On the other hand...

MILK CAUSES CANCER!!

[battybattybats]

New science stuff with commentary that has massive implications. http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2009/04/...of-puzzle.html

Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism by Luders E, Sánchez FJ, Gaser C, Toga AW, Narr KL, Hamilton LS, Vilain E. in Neuroimage. 2009 Mar 30.
We analyzed MRI data of 24 male-to-female (MTF) transsexuals not yet treated with cross-sex hormones in order to determine whether gray matter volumes in MTF transsexuals more closely resemble people who share their biological sex (30 control men), or people who share their gender identity (30 control women). Results revealed that regional gray matter variation in MTF transsexuals is more similar to the pattern found in men than in women. However, MTF transsexuals show a significantly larger volume of regional gray matter in the right putamen compared to men. These findings provide new evidence that transsexualism is associated with distinct cerebral pattern, which supports the assumption that brain anatomy plays a role in gender identity.

Read on to learn how MtF TSs have brain parts more female than most females and others more male than most males!

Altogether, females had the largest gray matter volumes in all but two significant clusters, which were located in the left and right putamen. Here, MTF transsexuals had the largest gray matter volumes

More "typically feminine" than the usual factory model... or should we say that most women are less "typically female" than TS women? Less "strongly gendered" on average? You'd expect TS women to be more "strongly gendered" than average, as many would otherwise be able to cope with transsexuality without seeking treatment. But what about the rest of the brain? Many TS women show more typically male abilities in instinctive ballistics calculations for example.

For the remaining clusters, MTF transsexuals had the smallest gray matter volumes, but their data spectrum largely overlapped with that of males.

Fascinating! Not just more female than female in some areas, but slightly more male than male in others! I wonder, is this environmental? Would the same thing be shown in younger, "primary" transwomen? Or could it be that the anomalous hormonal wash in the womb bollixes things up in an even more complex manner than we thought? We're in the realm of conjecture here, so we can't say without a lot more study. One thing - there's a correlation between Transexuality and what has been described as "ultra male syndrome" - Asperger's. Might this "ultra-male" grey matter pattern be the cause? And could a change to a female hormone regime cause changes to it? I'd love to see this repeated not just for younger transitioners, but for those on various HRT regimes, and FtoMs too of course. There's so much we don't know, but now we may be able to find out!

Fascinating stuff.
Hope they start brainscanning the CDs soon!

[Alana Lucerne]

I don't think it really matters what the difference is between a cd and a transexual. However, it is important that you and your wife have the same understanding of you and what you want. If you think you just intend to crossdress but she thinks you are eventually going to go for srs, I see a potential train wreck in the future.

I see your signature says "a female trapped in a male body". This implies to me that you are looking down the road to srs, but I don't know. If you are, maybe she is right in calling you a transexual. I guess you have to answer the question yourself and communicate the answer to your wife.

Good luck,

Alana

[suchacutie]

We don't agree on what these terms mean!

Are we surprised by this? I can't imagine we are. There are probably only a few of us who might be comfortable in any of these "categories", and those would be at the limits of the definitions. I think it's pretty clear that someone who starts life in one gender and over a period of time moves to live life entirely in another gender is transsexual, based on the roots of that word since they have crossed over from one sex to the other.

At the other "extreme", those who simply enjoy wearing clothing and accessories of the other gender would probably see themselves as a crossdresser.

That leaves the rest of us in some fraction in between. There is more to crossing over to the other gender than the clothes and accessories we wear. There is a psychology to the other gender that we didn't grow up learning and if we don't learn that psychology then we really haven't crossed over to that gender. It's like learning the vocabulary of another language without understanding how one thinks in that other language. It's not a word for word translation. It takes years to learn the "language" of the other gender.

So, ok, here's the rub. What happens to someone like me who is hell-bent-for-leather to learn the language of the other gender? I really want to think like a woman when I'm Tina. I not only want to use the appropriate words and voice, I want that thought process that my wife is trying to explain to me. When I "transition", I really want to change!

But I then want to change back. So where do you put me? Half transsexual? Transgendered? Bigendered? The definitions just don't cover it, and with the spectrum of people on this forum alone, I don't think we could define enough words to cover the spectrum. BTW, I like to think of myself as transgendered. Does that seem to fit?

tina

[battybattybats]

But I then want to change back. So where do you put me? Half transsexual? Transgendered? Bigendered? The definitions just don't cover it, and with the spectrum of people on this forum alone, I don't think we could define enough words to cover the spectrum. BTW, I like to think of myself as transgendered. Does that seem to fit?

tina

Transgender covers everyone whose gender identity and/or expression diverges from what is stereotypical in society for their sex. (note sex is used to refer to anatomy in much of these discussions)

So it covers transsexuals (unless the radical HBS crowd take up my offer of the coining of the term Cisgender Transsexuals so they don't have to be associated with 'transgenderists' like me) and it covers crossdressers and it covers drag queens and it covers genderqueers and it covers androgynes and it covers bigender and pangender people and it covers camp gays and bull-dyke butch lesbians and it covers effeminate straight men and masculine straight women too.

Of course many intersex people are (or consider themselves) cisgender while many transgender people are still cissexuals (a crossdressers is Transgender as they don't stick to gender stereotypes/rules but they are cissexual as they do not change their anatomy). So in a human Rights consultation I was involved with last year I learned of the term Sex and Gender Diversity (S&GD) as a broader umbrella even than transgender so it covered Intersex too (and the HBS crowd no matter their objections and constant attempts to rewrite definitions and terms).

So Tina, yes your are Transgender. What further definition is up to you to decide on if any but you are most assuredly Transgender as are every CD on this forum.

[DarleneCD]

On the other hand...

MILK CAUSES CANCER!!

I think the point of this thread is long gone......



Time to move on.

chow

[Byanca]

Fascinating stuff.

Certainly is. This mskes sense.

[kathrynjanos]

Transsexuals typically define themselves as "born in the wrong body" or some such phrasing. That is, they know that they are internally (mentally) one sex, and physically another.

Crossdressers are simply people of one sex who have a desire to dress as the opposite sex.

Now, MANY of us here and elsewhere suspect that we're really all on the same spectrum, just different degrees, that being under the blanket term of "transgendered." This is why some CDs later find themselves to be TS, but that's a whole different story.

Of course, without reading the full thread, this is pretty much assured to have been stated more or less, but you get the idea.

[joanne anderson]

[SIZE="3"]Hi there. I believe that Clarrisa has given the best definition of the difference between crossdressers and transexulas.
One difference I would make with the her discription of a trans-sexual is that, yes there are those who believe they have been born and lived in the wrong body and who feel the only answer to there desire to correct this feeling , is to go through sexual re-assingment surgery and then to live the life they truly believe was meant for them.
There are others who may start out as crossdressers and find they want to become the opposite sex to that which they were born.
Both are classed as TRANSEXUALS once the surgery is complete and from hence forth they become that they gender that they have chosen

Joanne[/SIZE]

[marla01]

Transsexuals typically define themselves as "born in the wrong body" or some such phrasing. That is, they know that they are internally (mentally) one sex, and physically another.

Crossdressers are simply people of one sex who have a desire to dress as the opposite sex.

While these defintions are quite common, and even 'not wrong', I am uncomfortable with them for several reasons.

- The first problem is that they describe completely different 'spaces' and therefore cannot really be compared. The transsexual definition defines a mental attitude and identity but says nothing about action. The crossdresser definition defines an action but says nothing about identity.

I note that under these definitions, a crossdresser may or may not be a transsexual (since the definition of crossdresser says nothing about identity) and a transsexual may or may not be a crossdresser (since the definition of crossdresser says nothing about action).

Perhaps this is the way it should be. Perhaps we can assume that they are not mutually exclusive and a crossdresser may also be transsexual and a transsexual may also crossdress. And the title of this discussion is wrong. It's not an either/or condition.

- The next problem I have is the disorder assumption presented in the definition of transsexual (i.e. "born in the wrong body" ). While I would agree that this identity is common within the group of individuals that wear the transsexual label, I would disagree that it is typical. Studies I've seen and individuals I've know have suggested to me that this identity of a physical disorder is not 'typical' but instead is just a large minority (perhaps 30-40%).

- The next problem I have is that the definitions seem to confuse sex with gender. I am not sure there is a 'dress' for a sex, but instead I would suggest there are typical 'dress' for the gender roles in our society.

- Finally, I am not sure 'dress' is the best defining characteristic of crossdressing (I know, the label 'crossdress' certainly looks like it should be). Most crossdressers do much more than 'put on a dress', they assume a gender role (which is also what most transsexuals do). And while clothing is an indicator of gender role, gender role is certainly much more expansive than clothing. So perhaps we should not be trivializing crossdressers by zeroing in on a single characteristic that might not be the defining characteristic?

Just some thoughts.

Marla

[Mary Jane1]

I think everyone is missing a big key word here. It's the want factor. A TS wants/needs to change their gender because they feel that they were born with the physical body.

I think that's as accurate a definition as any. It's why one can be a pre-op, non-op or post-op transexual. It's the emotional, spiritual or inner person that identifies as a woman. If they take that further to changing their physical appearance, that is the logical next step, but not all do.

It's being able to look in the mirror with the knowlwdge that whatever the outer trappings, you are a woman.

[battybattybats]

While these defintions are quite common, and even 'not wrong', I am uncomfortable with them for several reasons.

You bring up some really good and well thought out points! Every single one of them!

[Carly D.]

Cd has a "C" in it.. and transsexual doesn't.. Google the definitions for more in depth definition..