A Discussion To Get Us Thinking

[Senban]

Okay so I get up early this morning because I have somewhere I need to go. Coffee, pork pie (healthy breakfast!), shave and off I go. Turns out I decided to get so utterly lost that it wasn't even funny so I gave up and came home.

Anyway, with all this driving round aimlessly listening to The Murderdolls, my brain started wandering down new paths and so I decided to jot down some thoughts here to kickstart a discussion.

Why is it that society seems to have an issue (sometimes) with crossdressers? This is the thought that was running through my head as I was driving round. Is it perhaps because society generally sees crossdressing as something sexual in nature, some kind of fetish or perversion? And basically while to a degree, society accepts that such things go on behind closed doors, they don't want it in their faces and in public places.

Now, assuming that my conjecture is true, does this not suddenly explain why some people are trying to play the "sexual predator" card in this ongoing public toilet issue in the States and elsewhere?

Of course there are many people who enjoy crossdressing as a form of sexual fetish and okay, good luck to them. And for the most part I am assuming that those people keep themselves to themselves and don't walk down the street in their fetishistic clothing. I may be mistaken, I'm making an assumption I know.

Now there are many people (like myself) who just wear everyday clothes you walk past a thousand times a day. We're not parading a sexual fetish in the faces of others, we're just being ourselves. But is it possible that the general public's impression of crossdressing is that of a sexual fetish? If we consider that then doesn't it suddenly make sense that they would have difficulty accepting it in many cases? I mean in their viewpoint, it's no different to seeing someone in their BDSM gear shopping in Tesco for example.

So, is it possible that one of the problems we have is that transgender issues are all lumped together when in fact they are entirely separate and should be viewed as such? I mean, take this forum as an example. It covers a broad spectrum of related issues and yet there are whole swathes of it which bear absolutely no relationship to my own experiences/situation whatsoever. Consider this. Yesterday I officially came out to a friend of mine (he'd already guessed anyway) which is a long story in itself but he was absolutely fine about it and we had a good discussion and he's even given me some information that could be helpful but that's for another thread and time. But let's say that I'd come out to him and he'd said "hey, I don't know much about that and so I'll do some research". He comes to this forum, creates an account as the friend of a TG and walks straight into countless threads about what colour panties you're wearing. That's not the entire forum of course, I appreciate that but it would be easy for someone coming here and to other forums/websites to find out more to jump to the wrong conclusions and then act on those in the real world.

(Incidentally, please don't think of the above as criticism of this forum because it's not intended to be; I'm just illustrating a point).

I mean I remember when I first told my recent girlfriend about being TG and she initially assumed I meant some kind of PVC fetish crossdressing. It was only when I showed her my wardrobes the next day that she was saying "But this is just normal stuff, why would anyone have a problem with that? Incidentally I'm stealing these boots and this top!"

So, in a roundabout way, what I'm getting to is this thought. If we want to be generally more accepted, do we need to show the general public that while there are sexual fetishist crossdressers, the chances of them being out in public are quite small and that the ones who are out and about are just everyday people doing everyday things?

Discuss.

/me prepares for potentially heated debate

[Genifer Teal]

No heated debate here, just some thoughts.

Most of the general public have not had direct exposure to cross dressing - that they know of. That being the case, where does the information they do have about CDing come from? Probabbly the media and word of mouth. All we have to do is look how the media portrays us to understand why the general public thinks what they do about us.

When the GP (general public) thinks of CDing, I bet Rocky Horror comes to mind quickly. I won't write a list of other examples but you get the idea. One problem is we are being compared to the Dr Frank N Futters of this world.

It is also significant that there are no CDing role models. When CDing does appear somewhat normally in movies, it is usually the brunt of a joke. I think RuPaul helped us a lot in this area to show the public we are regular people too.

The worst offender is the news media. They sensationalize every story. If a story even remotely has to do with CDing, that often becomes the headline. It can be so bad that if a bank robber wears pantyhose on his head to disguise his face, they might label him as a CDer or a pantyhose wearing thief - just to get attention to the story.

This all builds a negative perception in peoples minds because they just don't know any better. Most of the public have no real idea what we are about. What little information they get from the media is all they have to go on. When one person who CDs happens to do something bad, we all get associated with that same bad behavior.

What we need is to start a campaign to educate the public. If more people came out in their communities, the public could eventually realize we are just regular people. It would be an uphill battle and just like any battle the front line will take the brunt of the heat. The problem is, most in our community will not take that risk. Without taking the risk, there can be no gain.

The only gains we have made, are made one at a time in the small battles that take place as one more person comes out, or even transitions in the work place. As more of these happen, more people are educated. No great gains will ever be made at this snails pace. Unless a greater movement takes place, little will change in the perception of us.

One hope we have is protection under the law. This might give more people the courage to come out or transition. As more people do come out, more will follow. Eventually, when the public can no longer hide from us, they may finally learn we are not to be feared. Unfortunately, I don't see this happening any time soon.

Gen

[Sherry-Stephanie]

A lot of territory/topics/questions to cover in your posts....

So let me simply say this....

Your hoping for a lot from society....

A society that finds faults/differences in color of skin, ethenticity, religious beliefs, political views, one's level of financial wealth or lack of...and lets not forget sexual preferences both hertosexual and otherwise....

So this being the case, you expect society to be more kinder and gentler towards the CD/TG community????? well dear like the other areas I have mentioned I'll say this...."not in this life time will it change"!!!!!

However, this probably is where it's at now..in general CDing and T/Ging world it is more at a "tolerated level" out in the public now and yes over time it will become more accepted and/or tolerated....but across the whole spectrum of society????? not anytime soon...people are still way to unable to accept a guy wearing woman clothes or a guy trying to be femminine to be able to say it's "normal"...and as long as normal is applied to CDing it won't be accepted anytime soon....

[Melinda G]

A pork pie for breakfast is healthy?

[Fab Karen]

well dear like the other areas I have mentioned I'll say this...."not in this life time will it change"!!!!!

People believed that about blacks, and whether there might ever be a black President. YES WE CAN.

[Natalia]

"society seems to have an issue (sometimes) with crossdressers"

SOMETIMES?????


Am I living in the same world with you people? Equality laws are being opposed by advertising that depicts Crossdressers as opportunistic bathroomn child molesters.

We are reviled by right wing hate groups on a daily basis - in print, on the web, and over the airwaves.

SOMETIMES?

I read posts on this board about cops being called to shadow shoppers in stores, wives screaming at husbands all night long, loss of visitation rights, fears of job loss and expulsion from the military...

SOMETIMES?

I wish.

[Nena]

If you have been following the reactions of social conservatives to the Iowa Supreme Court ruling on same-sex marriage, it is apparent that this all is about social control and one group with (unearned) privilege lording their so-called morality over others. I think that it is even worse for cross dressers, because for the most part you are a hidden population with virtually no social power.

The sad thing is that this behavior tends to be transmitted throughout social hierarchies, with groups at each level of the hierarchy attempting to gain privilege at the expense of others. It has played out many times and in many different contexts. For example, a number of years ago there was a huge controversy in lesbian communities over allowing transwomen access to their gatherings. This was argued mainly as a safe-space issue. In other words, GG lesbians (insecure in their own identities) needed to feel safe that there were no counterfeit women attending their gatherings. Things are somewhat better now but there still are undercurrents of this brewing in these communities.

I agree that media representations are horrible. Moreover, the public's perception of cross dressing comes largely from drag shows at night clubs and daytime television programs like Jerry Springer that sensationalize everything.

With that said, read your post again. One could interpret it as coming dangerously close to advocating marginalizing the sissies and others that do not necessarily adhere to a yet-to-be-defined mainstream version of cross dressing. From the rest of your message, this obviously is not what you want. I agree with you that one of the coolest things about this site is its diversity. I am grateful that you allow me to be here.



Nena GG

[Sheila]

"society seems to have an issue (sometimes) with crossdressers"

SOMETIMES?????


Am I living in the same world with you people? Equality laws are being opposed by advertising that depicts Crossdressers as opportunistic bathroomn child molesters.

We are reviled by right wing hate groups on a daily basis - in print, on the web, and over the airwaves.

SOMETIMES?

I read posts on this board about cops being called to shadow shoppers in stores, wives screaming at husbands all night long, loss of visitation rights, fears of job loss and expulsion from the military...

SOMETIMES?

I wish.

And do you not also read on here about accepting spouses, friends and family members ................ my sister joined here to support Debs and I in our life tog, my youngest lad is looking forward to when we move to be with Debs, my daughter has given Debs tips on what looks good on her, my friend has met him in real life and her on webcam and has no problem with either of them ( apart from tjhe fact that she is taking her best friend 300 miles away ) there are other family members who come her to support their CDing relatives, there are friends of CDERs who come her to help support their friends.

Many CDERs & TS go out daily to work dressed fem and gain employment that way .......... so it would seem your wish is taking place daily around the world

[Natalia]

If you believe that this board has any relation to the real world your fog is so pimk you probably can't see your shoes.

Wow...accepting spouses post here!

What would you expect? The abusive hating spouses to come here and chat?

Until it is a federal hate crime to beat up a CD, instead of just a sport, and "gay panic" is no longer an excuse for murder, this little hobby of ours will continue to be a form of Russian Roulette.

[Karren H]

Well... I try not to think about it too much.... and since I could care less what other people think of my hobby.... It's doesn't mater to me if the mistake it for a fetish or a genetic defect or some wackey Japanees game show!!!

[Sheila]

If you believe that this board has any relation to the real world your fog is so pimk you probably can't see your shoes.
Wow...accepting spouses post here!
What would you expect? The abusive hating spouses to come here and chat?
Until it is a federal hate crime to beat up a CD, instead of just a sport, and "gay panic" is no longer an excuse for murder, this little hobby of ours will continue to be a form of Russian Roulette.

As I am a GG I do not suffer from Pink Fog and I am damned lucky in that I have a balanced CDER who does not do pink fog, I have a caring supportive partner who is a supportive caring father & who will support and care for my 12 year old son like his own, when we move to be with him, he just happens to be a CDER among many other things he does in his life & trust me without that balance, & caring personality we would not be tog, & his balance also includes his very male orientated hobbies of which he does many .......
I am one of those accepting SO's ..................... my sister need not be here, my son need not support, my friends need not accept ................. or maybe I am just damned lucky in that I have open minded, free thinking friends but I think it is more than that

And further more I do not think he is unique ...... well I do but you know what I mean

[charlie]

I'mafraid that most ofthe world warrants Natalia's view. Most people just think of a crossdresser as a confused individual that should not be around, trusted or taken seriously. A close friend of mine and I were out and saw a crossdresser, his comment was that it "was just wrong"..."not right". I said perhaps the guy (she was not well done at all, just a large guy in a dress) just didnot like being a guy. Perhaps he was jsut feeling feminine! He grudging said "maybe, but it is wrong". This is from a guy that does not mind going to a party full of gay guys and lesbiens. However, to him crossdressers are extreamly weird. I think this is typical society.

[Nicki B]

So, in a roundabout way, what I'm getting to is this thought. If we want to be generally more accepted, do we need to show the general public that while there are sexual fetishist crossdressers, the chances of them being out in public are quite small and that the ones who are out and about are just everyday people doing everyday things?

Aren't you assuming that there are two completely separate communities? Non-trans fetishists don't always do their shopping in rubber & PVC..

[melissacd]

It is hard to get past our own challenges in being out in the world transgendered so I can certainly appreciate the challenge that it creates for others who are not. For example, my girlfriend, well I guess ex girlfriend as of today, to her credit really tried to understand and accept, but in the end it was more than she could deal with. She has years of societal training that makes it a huge challenge for her to get past her concerns about what others in the public think of me and by association her. I am sad at this outcome, however, I have to accept that she has to feel comfortable with all of this too. It is not just about me and my ability to have a thick skin while out in public. That being said I recognized that as much as I love her I cannot step down from who I am and we have agreed that it was time to call it a day, that it is not working for her anymore in as much as she tried her hardest.

I wish that it could be otherwise, I wish that people could not treat this in the negative way that they do, but in the end the only one that I can control is myself, my decisions, actions, attitudes etc...

I am sad that she is gone and I am not sure that I have the strength to start all over again, but I truly respect her decision as much as she respects mine.

It is a tough path we travel and we have to be very committed to our journey, to our self exploration, to our self actualization and sadly there is a price to pay along the way that we do not always want to have to pay, but we must, it is the cost of entry, it is the cost of reaching happiness and fulfillment, it is the cost of becoming ourselves.

Melissa

[RobynP]

So, in a roundabout way, what I'm getting to is this thought. If we want to be generally more accepted, do we need to show the general public that while there are sexual fetishist crossdressers, the chances of them being out in public are quite small and that the ones who are out and about are just everyday people doing everyday things?

Senban,

The problem is that as much as we try to educate the public, every so often this happens: San Jose sex offender wearing fake breasts, wig arrested for loitering in womens' restroom.

"Yeah, right, you guys are just everyday people doing everyday things..."

The more we are out and about doing everyday things everyday, the less explaining we have to do to the general public because they will see articles like this and know that this is not what crossdressers are...

Robyn

[kellycan27]

I don't know,maybe I should stay home more and watch the news or look for scary stories about what's happening to tg'ed people on the internet,because I seem to be missing a lot. I mean I hear a lot in here, but I just don't see it as I conduct my daily life. I keep waiting for such stories to pop up from the girls in here that suddenly decide to venture out... but so far, I really haven't seen too many bad incidents, but I have read about a lot of great experiences. Actually I did read a thread about someone who was a bit discouraged because some guys gave her a hard time, some stares, a chuckle perhaps.
I guess ther are some of us who should be thankful that there are those who do have the time to diligently scan the airways and keep us abreast of the dangers that society poses to us,while we are out there working, and playing and recklessly living our lives.

[Sophia de la luz]

I remember in college, I had a friend (a girl) who was convinced that sexism (in social situations) was at least in part driven by size. That is, men were generally bigger, and so a certain amount of fear was warranted in dealing with them. This gal was on the small size. She had as evidence several friends (boys) who were small and who felt similiarly. At first, I rejected this theory in favor of more classically feminist idealogy. Overtime, I have come to see some truth to it.
I suspect that the crossdressers who hold the trumph cards in their social settings (i.e. have money, prestige, beautiful spouses, power) have fewer problems being "accepted" then ones who live solitary lives, work in jobs they can be fired from, etc.
In this setting, mocking the crossdresser is an expression of power. If the business owner came to work dressed as woman, I doubt any of her employees would have many problems. Reverse the situation, and, of course there is tension.
I agree that if all crossdressers walked in public, things would be a bit looser. But then that would be a different world. No risk, and some of us would have to find something else to do to push the boundaries.

[Senban]

Just to say thanks for everyone who has put ideas and thoughts forward on this discussion. There's too many to pick up on them all in one post but I've read them all and found them very interesting, even when they've been opposite to my own views

Robyn P said - "The more we are out and about doing everyday things everyday, the less explaining we have to do to the general public because they will see articles like this and know that this is not what crossdressers are..."

I think this is the case and what a lot of it comes down to is the fact that the general public's exposure to crossdressing comes mainly from bad news stories like the one you linked to or bloody awful films like Rocky Horror (yes, I said it). I can only think of one positive role model crossdresser in the public eye and that's Eddie Izzard although I'm sure there are many others. But then I have to admit that as much as I love Eddie Izzard's sense of humour, I sometimes feel his crossdressing is no more than a clown's costume and simply part of his act.

What we actually need is simply more people just going about their daily lives without drawing any real attention to themselves and just being there so that the public is gradually exposed to the fact that we're just people.

Natalia said - ""society seems to have an issue (sometimes) with crossdressers"

SOMETIMES?????"

Yes, "sometimes" is the word I used and I stand by it. In my personal experience I have had no issue whatsoever apart from once hearing a quiet snigger as I walked past two teenage boys and even that was ages ago. However one of my neighbours at a previous address was openly transgender and she was ostracised by her church and told she wasn't allowed to attend any more. I know of plenty of horror stories of an unaccepting society but I also know many stories about society being very accepting so yes, "sometimes" stands as my word of choice. YMMV.

Genifer Teal said - "This all builds a negative perception in peoples minds because they just don't know any better. Most of the public have no real idea what we are about. What little information they get from the media is all they have to go on. When one person who CDs happens to do something bad, we all get associated with that same bad behavior.

What we need is to start a campaign to educate the public. If more people came out in their communities, the public could eventually realize we are just regular people. It would be an uphill battle and just like any battle the front line will take the brunt of the heat. The problem is, most in our community will not take that risk. Without taking the risk, there can be no gain."

I think you're absolutely correct here (and in the rest of your post too). The problem is that a lot of people want to come out and will almost rise up and nearly be heard but what they want is for a few other people to test the waters by making the first move. That way if it goes badly they can whistle nonchalantly and pretend they had nothing to do with it. It's a shame but there you go.

Melinda G said - "A pork pie for breakfast is healthy? "

Damn right It was actually a pork and pickle pie to be exact and so very yummy

[JoAnne Wheeler]

Society does not accept us at this time - in fact we are looked upon as

something worse than Lepers - this is the result of ignorance and intolerance

but what do we do - I'll never see acceptance in my lifetime (age 64)

JoAnne Wheeler

[Kate Simmons]

It's only as easy or as difficult as we ourselves make it really. The real issues are not about WHAT we are as much as WHO we are as people.

[melissacd]

Arianna,

You are so right girl, we make this more difficult in our minds than it actually is in the rel world.

Huggs
Melissa

[TGMarla]

The pervasive attitudes of Western Civilization bring a few sayings to mind that illustrate the dominant point of view when it comes to the differences and tolerances in the behaviors of men and women.

"Quarterbacks should wear skirts." This suggests that if they don't want to get hit, and take it like a man, they ought to parade around as women.

"Grow some sack." This suggests that men who do not have the intestinal fortitude for some situations obviously lack testicles, like women.

There are numerous other "got no balls" colloquialisms that in essence denigrate women as lesser beings simply because they do not have male genitalia. Either a man is brave, likes to fight, is insensitive to others, brawls, drinks too much, and acts boorishly in genteel company, or he must be one of those lesser beings....a woman.

This is a very harmful attitude, since my experience has taught me that women are generally (not always) better people than men are. Women are not lesser beings. But if a man does not conform to the stereotypical male behaviors, he is ostracized and belittled. Women, on the other hand, generally get a free pass no matter what behaviors they exhibit. Sure, there are some behaviors that will bring derision down on women, the most common being loose sexual behavior, but they don't usually get derided with terms such as "she ought to wear pants", or "geez, lose the balls, girlfriend!"

So when men go around emulating women, wearing high heels, pantyhose, and breasts, the prevailing attitude is to deride that man as something less than a man. And women have throughout history been on a lower social rung than have men. It is for this reason first and foremost that crossdressers are the subject of derision, and generally looked down upon. After all, why would a man want to look like a woman? Why? Those that cannot understand most often react by attacking the subject of their confusion. Thus, crossdressers get shunned.

[Mary Jane1]

Regarding your comment about coming on here and reading endless details about colors of panties I agree, it can look shallow. But the important issues are here too. We all, especially first timers have a huge need to share the feelings that have been bottled up for years and talking about the more frivolous is the easiest, and sometimes it’s just fun. Maybe create a sub section for the lighter, chattier topics ... or a section geared for those wanting to learn ... I really don’t know. But you’re right, if people want to be educated, we should make it easy for them .. for everyone’s sake.

We do need a more constructive and educational vehicle to get the message out about all aspects of crossdressing including battling the negative or inaccurate connotations such as fetish, sexual orientation, perversion, drag queens etc, etc.

I personally think the term cross dressing is a problem. It has such a bad rap and brings so many negative images to the publics mind. But to do anything takes organization and that’s difficult when most of us want to remain anonymous to one degree or another. It’s a real cart before the horse. So many of us would come out if it was socially acceptable & it won’t be acceptable until we show who we are. A neighbor, a co worker, a friend, a family member.

I don’t know how to provide that organization or education but it’s not there now. In my opinion there might as well not be a ‘T’ (which includes CD) in GLBT. The help/information is old, repetitious and vague at best. In most organized events, the T /CD is just an add-on to the GLB. And I’m not talking about NY, SF, Toronto or Vancouver but the smaller areas where most of us live. Not a criticism, I know it’s not intentional, but it’s true. – again probably more of an organization weakness on our part.

Society is changing and I see crossdressing becoming acceptable. Wasn’t that long ago a man couldn’t wear earrings, or some colors, have their hair styled. There was no such thing as a metrosexual & now it’s in the dictionary. There’s a long way to go and I think real, enforceable laws and some high profile responsible and respected people coming out would be such a boost.

I’m not providing answers I know, but I do think we should talk more about it ... along with the color of our panties, of course.

[battybattybats]

"society seems to have an issue (sometimes) with crossdressers"

SOMETIMES?????


Am I living in the same world with you people? Equality laws are being opposed by advertising that depicts Crossdressers as opportunistic bathroomn child molesters.

Yes that's true but we won in Gainseville (or rather the Transsexuals and their Gay and Lesbian allies did it seems because most CDs let them fight our battles for us and do nothing to help!)

We are reviled by right wing hate groups on a daily basis - in print, on the web, and over the airwaves.

True, but they are a vocal minority. Most people are mainly ignorant and come round to our side when faced with decent behaving CDs that reveal we are humans too and when faced with clear evidence and logic that shows the lies as lies. The college youth of Gainseville were on our side and that battle was won.

SOMETIMES?

I read posts on this board about cops being called to shadow shoppers in stores, wives screaming at husbands all night long, loss of visitation rights, fears of job loss and expulsion from the military...

Indeed. CDs and TSs face a number of forms of discrimination and injustice. Some groups far far worse than others. And most representations of CDing in the media are mockery but thats improving. The last several centuries has seen CDs forced into the closet around most of the world... but the anti-CD laws that existed 50 years ago that were rioted against by those courageous CDs at Compton Cafeteria and Stonewall have been overturned in the west. There has been progress in turning back the tide of hate.

So I agree that Sometimes is correct. It's far too often still but it is getting better because of the hard work of a few.

If more of us pitched in even just a little then we could make a lot of progress. But it seems that doing anything but wallowing in either misery or oblivious denial is a pretty unpopular idea. Most would rather wait and let the Transsexuals Gays Lesbians and the next generation of CDs plus the pitiful few brave and noble CDs who get involved to do all the work for them.

Can it really be just fear when its been pointed out that the closeted can still contribute?

Are most of our community moochers? Or is there some other reason? I suspect it might be fear that if they acknowledge they can do something they'll be unable to stay hidden and so insist on maintaining a belief that change is not possible in order to protect that safe hiding place, even when they could help the change while still in the closet. But I'm just speculating about that of course, but if the answer could be found for the terrible complacency and apathy within the crossdressing community then we could get a whole lot more acceptance and a whole lot more fairness for very little individual effort!

[kellycan27]

I have come to realize that we are a very diverse and complicated group.This question of acceptance comes up quite a bit in here. My observations have been this. when the question of coming out,acceptance, and society comes up we tend to break into a bunch of different trains of thought

1. Those who are out ( and argue for ...woo woo woo!)

2.Those who have their reasons for not coming out (friends,families,job,etc.)

3. those who don't want to come out (perfectly happy with the way things are)

4. Those who don't care one way or another

5. those who are on the fence (still trying to figure it out)

Just to name a few.. I am sure that we can name others.
These dicussions come up and we argue. Point,counter point....yes we can..no we can't. We get into these huge passionate verbal brawls.Examples of pros and cons expressed, opinions cited, I agree with her, They disagee with them. In the end,the thread sort of fizzles out or the mods step in and put an end to it.
We step back into our respective corners, with really nothing more than maybe one or two (if that) have been swayed into either camp.
My point is this. if we can't even come together as a group in a united front, how are going to accomplish anything . Some say that acceptance will never come in our lifetime. before I joined this forum I was pretty much out there on my own,doing my thing. My thoughts were... This isn't so bad..trans people can do this. maybe I was in lala land... i didn't have a real clue as to how many different issues that people were having concerning acceptance and society and baggage........whatever.
I came in here,gung ho! fight,fight,fight, if I can do it you can do it! We need to get organized... I have finally come to the conclusion that, no acceptance in our lifetime probably won't happen. What will happen, and I see it happening on almost a daily basis... One by on...cd's and ts people are slipping through the cracks and making their way in and around society.
If the attitudes expressed in here are a sampling of how TG people feel as a whole, then our hope lies with those few "lucky girls" that hatch and leave the nest. I can't see any consorted effort to change anything. Those who want change, will make change if not just for themselves. The rest will just continue to argue and complain about it.The funny thing is that when I see these type threads I say to myself... just stay out of it. But then my curiosity gets the better of me so I venture in. I'll just see what's going on....Then, did she just say that? Oh no she didn't! and they I am back in the mix. LOL